mOOn_platOOn's tags:

 mmmn platmmn

Copyright © 2009 Steve Games First serial rights released to SoulCast. Photos, graphics, contents and characters may not be replicated for use outside SoulCast or commercial use in the open market or on other websites without express permission of the author. All rights reserved

stevegames1@yahoo.com

 
This post is an edited compilation of my comments on another blog. I thought it might be nice, for once, to have a fanatic-free post on this difficult subject where those of you who have dealt with the situation personally can feel free to discuss it sans religious sensationalism. Anyone who wants to start throwing around terms like "murder" and "baby killers" can save their energy; such comments will be deleted quickly. Many of us have had to deal with this issue in real life and know how complex it really is. Here is a summary of my own thoughts....
 
 
I was almost aborted.
 
My Granddad was pushing for it. He couldn't stand thinking about the pain that was going to fall upon his only daughter if she had a half-black child in the 1950s.
 
So how do I feel about Rights for the Unborn?
 
Why not simply restore full rights to the dead? They'll be just as appreciative of your struggle on their behalf as the pre-born will be. Because once they're born, they're like me...
 
I was nearly aborted, my abortion under discussion, an illegitimate, mixed-race zygote conceived by a white woman before the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was even a consideration, but saved by a persistent voice that just couldn't take the easy way out...
 
...and not at all influenced by anyone calling abortion "murder."
 
Would I have been murdered? I can't seem to remember. From my ZPOV (zygote point of view) I'm not sure it would have been anything. Would you all be missing me now? I think not. You wouldn't know I was gone. So maybe this is a desperate Republican membership drive aiming toward a generation of future gratefuls, but I wouldn't count on it.
 
Why are so many "conservatives" fixated on the moment the egg is fertilized? Why is that the magic moment?
 
Every egg is a potential life. A one-in-a-million or more freak accident is the deciding factor? Why?

Because they're assuming Divine Intervention (God meant for this life to be). Yet if that is so, then won't God make that life inevitable?

 

These vessels we inhabit are not, in and of themselves, all that important, are they? They are all quite similar even down to the subatomic level, and an intervention might mean that this Inevitable Life will actually be born into a better situation?

 

In fact, we should label abortions interventions if we accept the idea of an immortal soul. If "conservatives" could wrap their minds around their own beliefs holistically, they'd conclude that no man can stop God's will.

 

We might even be comforted by a theory involving babies, with the idea that anyone who dies before the age of 2 gets a rebirth on the house! Maybe Hindus could help incorporate that. I figure if I can be biracial I can be bireligious.

 

Please keep in mind that God invented abortion - just like He created everything else. He must not have necessarily wanted to allow a fetus or zygote to kill its hostess.

 

Ergo, any baby that is "meant" to be born will find a proper host sooner or later.

 

I have a son - he's 12. He wasn't aborted, obviously. If he had been, I wouldn't know it. Neither would he. Do I value human life? I have put my own life at risk to save others, more than once.

 

A lady who calls abortion murder justifies this harsh reclassification with sentiments about her son: There are so many things in my life that wouldn't be if I hadn't had him.

There is no way to be sure about that. She is appealing to the unknown for her reasoning. Also, she might have had an even greater experience with another child that has never come to be because she didn't date that next guy because she had that kid, etc. ....

She is buying into the idea abortion=murder. At some point, if irresponsibly undertaken, yes. At a previous point, no. When is that point? Certainly before any kicking starts. Why? Because there are no absolutes (unless you want to start fertilizing every egg you produce - that would indeed be consistent with her line of thinking if taken absolutely) and consideration for the pre-born is the same as consideration for the dead who once were alive. Neither exist. Why should they be put before the actual living?

If I spill tears over all the near-life experiences that have been cut short, there won't be any left for the actual folks that made it here.

This kind of reasoning is like that ridiculous passage in The Curious Case Of Benjamin Button where the dancer's car accident never would have happened if not for a particular chain of Rube Goldberg-like events that put her in the path of a distracted driver. Well DUH. The same can be said of every event.

Please, cut the drama. If we have no right to interfere with life, then stop spilling seed or menstruating. If you insist on a fertilized egg as the holy grail, how can we stop at the human egg? How do we know what miracles we're crushing in other species? Talk about arrogance.

 

Let's talk about the "Culture of Life." Let's play their "culture of death" propaganda game in reverse and extrapolate the logical consequences.

 

Every egg that CAN be fertilized MUST be given EVERY chance to be fertilized. This will obviously be possible in the near future. We can extract all eggs and do them in the lab, bringing all the life that God made available to fruition.

 

Every sperm capable of fertilizing an egg MUST be given an egg to fertilize. Soon, not a problem. We'll be able to clone eggs and make them available for the squirmy little guys.

 

Every woman who CAN procreate MUST procreate at the peak of her fertility. As long as she's trying, a failed egg or two will be forgiven, but beyond that she could face charges.

 

Likewise, every fertile male MUST reproduce as God intended. Failure to do so and proof of spilled seed gone to waste are prosecutable crimes. Wet Dream allowance is strict and not tolerated beyond puberty.

 

Since abortion, in the minds of the absolutists, has no differentiation of degree - whether zygote or near-birth, both are the same to them - then the components of life should be considered life, regardless of how small. And science will keep breaking them down into finer and finer pieces that are sacred.

 

No one in this world can speak on behalf of God. It would be cool if that kind of idiotic dialogue would cease, and stop leaching respect away from folks who might otherwise be good company.

 

Should we make use of all available medical procedures to promote life? Is that God's will? If not, perhaps it's time to stop intervening in difficult births with C-sections, and let God's will run its course.

 

It is not any kind of rational "bottom line" to maximize the psychological weight of abortion by making it sound like murder.

 

When I was 16 I guilted out an older girl who had an abortion and I was so convinced that I was right. That abortion was murder. And superficially, it can be labelled as such. It is true that a fetus can resemble a baby. The sonogram profile of my son at 8 weeks looked eerily like his profile at one year. A close up of my ass-cleavage looks like boobs, but it's still my ass. And a human fetus doesn't look any more like a baby than a lot of other feti.

 

As to the inadvertent destruction of cultural geniuses, with the dearth of great leaders now existing, it's unlikely that more births would produce very many more. A lot of doctors are downright dangerous (they perform abortions, too), and since curing cancer seems to be incredibly difficult, there is little chance that the genius who single-handedly could have done so has been aborted. More likely he/she/ it perished as a sperm, egg, zygote or fetus during a war or a traffic accident. Since we can never know such odd things, it's all drama to talk about it. Makes for a good fantasy but bad public policy.

 

How much bad public policy has been passed because of our arrogance and pretense of knowing the absolute truth? And that's all that it is. Pretense.

 

"Baby" - it sounds so cute. Would you abort little baby Hitler if a Time Machine allowed you to? Hmmm? I'd guess that a lot of you would kill him no matter what phase of life you caught him in. Hindsight.

 

Abortion is a medical procedure heavily regulated and monitored - when not made illegitimate and consigned to the shadows of Coat-hanger City by reactionary self-righteous "truth" mongers.

 

- OO




del.icio.us Digg reddit StumbleUpon

Comments

  • Kilgore_V_Trout said on Jun 10, 2009....
    I've had two - one against my will, one at my suggestion (involving two different ladies). The first was quite painful. The second was a relief. I've had a few what-if moments over the first, but no regrets over the second.
  • $ati$fiedCu$tomer said on Jun 10, 2009....
    OMG -!! you can't mean that there's honestly going to be a forum about abortion FREE OF NAME-CALLING FANATICS??????? no way man ---- l0l will believe it when it happens..........
     
    i hate the very idea of an abortion - I HATE IT!!!!! But we have to have the option and by gosh it has to be in a safe and regulated environment!! LET US NOT TURN BACK THE CLOCK.
  • Kirkla said on Jun 10, 2009....
     
     
    There's not even any point in debating abortion because nobody ever changes their mind once it's made up. Well, I guess you did mOOn sometime after you were 16, but in here.....its just opinionated people going at each other until it gets down to insults and then blah blah blah.
     
     
     
    I like what you said about the soul. I hope you are right and that every soul taht is met to be born will find a way to get here :)
     
  • beyondtheveil said on Jun 10, 2009....
    I've used the 'birth is inevitable' argument before and no one fell for it, or at least no one commented on it. If there is a god, no god would deny a chance at life due to abortion, miscarriage, or any other event that robbed them. 
  • gingersoul said on Jun 10, 2009....
    mOOnie.....i am pro abortion. No but, no if, no maybe.

    Somebody wants to call me baby killer? Please, go ahead. See if i care.

    Sorry, did you call me what?
    Murderer?

    See how hurt i am for such name calling? I don't even stop eating my chocolate bar...

    Great post, my dahling....:-).
  • travelr712 said on Jun 10, 2009....
    nah moon, i know you exist, and i still don't miss ya :-P
     
    it always amazes me that the same people who are so outspoken against abortion because it is 'murder of innocent life', have no voice at all when american bombs dropped from american planes kill innocent afghani and iraqi civilians, including children. i guess they're too busy supporting the 'war on terror' to notice.
  • abitofeverything said on Jun 10, 2009....
    There was name calling in here.  The only difference between this one and the others is the name calling was aimed towards politics.
    You have many good points, moon.
    But it will never come out of the closet without REAL discussion. 

    But what do I know.  I have no children.  So therefore, according to one of the posts, I should have no opinion.

    This subject will never be "out of the closet" unless people take it seriously, and check the judgments at the door.

     
  • abitofeverything said on Jun 10, 2009....
    Sorry, I'm under the wrong name right now.  Doortoinsanity.
    I came in to check this one and seen the post...

  • doortoinsanity said on Jun 10, 2009....
    tag...
  • hotaka said on Jun 11, 2009....
    I'm reading a book called Remaking Eden by Lee M. Silver. It covers the step by step of what's going on from fertilized egg to baby and asks the question, "When does life - life in the special sense - begin? I was thinking to blog about it since there have been so many posts (well two or three) about abortion recently. Maybe I'll get around to it. maybe not. I have a train to catch again. Gotta run. But i will add that it is good to know you and your son are here but if you weren't here it wouldn't change much in my life. I'd find interesting blogs in other places too. That is not meant to be an insulting remark, btw.
  • diabolicdame said on Jun 11, 2009....
    Yep.. I'm pretty much in agreement with this post.. I'm absolutely pro choice.. except there are some complications.. like in India, there is no such anti or pro abortion debate generally.. we are pretty much pro choice over all
     
    What we do have are excessive cases of female fetocide.. abortion based on the sex of the baby.. I think it happens in China as well.. because both these soceities notoriously favour the boy child traditionally.
     
    Havin said that, me and my sister are very much wanted and loved by our family so its not a generalisation I'm trying to make. Still.. the sex ratio is very skewed because of selective female abortions. Its like 10:7 or something I think. This ofcourse leads to various social problems.. a skewed social balance.. increase in crime rate by the disproportionate number of men out there with no chicks.. hehehe. The government has banned sex detection of the baby to stop it.. but ofcourse it still happens.. just illegally. 
     
    So yeah.. its a whole different side of abortions.. and I think it probably needs to be dealt with by elimination of bias in the society towards the boy child.. not by banning abortions as such because people will always find alternatives.. unsafe alternatives.
     
    Generally as I said though.. I'm pro choice.. people deserve to have that choice. Its better to bring a wanted baby into this world than one that isnt wanted and might not be cared well for.
  • kruuyai said on Jun 11, 2009....
    Hear, hear, mOOn... great post. 

    @ Kirkla..."nobody ever changes their mind once it's made up."   Not true.  I was an avid anti-abortionist up until sometime in my early to mid 20's, when I started realizing that the world is not black and white and that there are many extenuating circumstances.  I still would prefer that people not use abortion as a default means of birth control, but people have a right to make a choice about the course of their own lives, and I do believe that our souls can find another host to inhabit if one goes south.  These bodies that we inhabit are nothing more than glorified machines.   Pretty highly advanced machines, but let's not glorify them more than needs be.  Let's save that for the soul.
  • Lucytorial said on Jun 11, 2009....
    If you are going to try create a civil conversation about this topic can we please all call it by its true name and procedural name its a damn TERMINATION not an abortion a TERMINATION.
     
    I've always been Pro choice, many reasons, again why go into it, zealots tend to have their ears painted on so I leave it there.
  • Lucytorial said on Jun 11, 2009....
    ohhh mOOn, look the maturity of some huh?
     
    Dbabe, you bring up a very important point.  We need to as many different societies take this choice very seriously.  Cultural differences will require far more stringent laws on when and why it takes place.
     
  • doortoinsanity said on Jun 11, 2009....
    Me too.  I think I will volunteer at the local clinic.

    way more productive than this.

    ;-)~  
  • koneko said on Jun 11, 2009....
    "nobody ever changes their mind once it's made up."
    I also agree it's not true.

    I was an avid pro-choice supporter until MY mid 20's (@kruuyai, how'd I come in right behind you :-)  ).  I have personally had two, and I count them among the biggest mistakes of my life (although I didn't feel bad about it at the time).

    First I must say I do believe there is a difference between anti-abortion and pro-life.  If you have someone rallying against abortion, but in support of the death penalty or, per say, the "War on Terror" then they ARE NOT pro-life.  One cannot be in support of some life but not all life and still consider themselves pro-life. 
    In the same vane I would also say there is a difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion.  A close friend of mine abhors the idea of abortion, but could not bring herself to stop the choice of another, where as some other "pro-choicers" rally to say that abortion is a good thing and should be readily available to anybody at anytime, and even are in support of people having abortions  (teenage mother, just have an abortion;  college frat party, just have an abortion;  drunken one night stand, just have an abortion;  decided you now hate your boyfriend/husband, just have an abortion;  don't want to be responsible for your actions, just have an abortion)

    I will say now that I won't ever support abortion, however, since I am very adamant about others trying to force their beliefs on me I cannot turn around and try to do the same to them.  I DO believe in erradicating abortion.  However, the methods of fanaticism, name-calling, and "force" HAVE not and will NEVER work.  Our only choice of erradication is through creating a "lack of need" for it.  Through efforts of education (and I don't mean scare tactics, I mean REAL education), justice, & proper care for our society at large it is a dream that could possibly be realized.

    After all, who would really care that there was no abortion if there was no need for it.  If we didn't need it, we wouldn't even know it was gone.
  • doortoinsanity said on Jun 11, 2009....
    EXACTLY!
  • mOOn_platOOn said on Jun 11, 2009....
    O

    Wow. A civilized discussion. Cool. I've blocked the fake mOOn and the fake Trav, everyone be aware of the flamers.

    Why do they feel the need to intrude here?

    O
  • RollingC said on Jun 11, 2009....
    I am against abortion.... but I realize that everyone has the right to decide what they are going to do with their life and their body.
    To each his/her own decision....
    Rc
  • mOOn_platOOn said on Jun 11, 2009....
    O
     
    Has anyone noticed that this post has been tampered with? Somehow the main body of it has been removed.
     
    O
  • mOOn_platOOn said on Jun 11, 2009....
    O
     
    Okay - did any of you witness that? This post was actually sabotaged. 75% of it was removed.
     
    I just restored it.
     
    My friends, the forces against reason are formidable.
     
    O
  • Kilgore_V_Trout said on Jun 11, 2009....
    I saw the post just a while ago and it was short. I thought you had edited it. Well now, here is a scary thought. SoulCast has either been hacked or your account has been compromised. Any suspects? Any other alterations on other posts and the like? Maybe this forum is only uncensored until it comes to certain subjects. You must have really gotten under somebody's skin.
  • mOOn_platOOn said on Jun 11, 2009....
    O
     
    I urge everyone to copy and re-paste this post at your discretion. Obviously someone is going to hack away at it and take it down again. The words must, as Kilgore said, be getting "under somebody's skin."
     
    Obviously I have my own copy of everything that I post, so I can replace it whenever I become aware of the dirty deed.
     
    That amazes me. Well, perhaps I haven't given myself enough credit. Are my words so persuasive that I'm going to cause the deranking of the right wing? I must be better than even I realized!
     
    kilgore - interesting that you had two polar opposite reactions to the situation. I take it the mothers were the major discrepancy?
     
    $ati$fied - (Ha - you have a fun name to  type just like me!) I don't think anybody here is FOR abortion. We all hate the very idea of having to get one or see one performed. It's not some simple solution, it's a distasteful one.
     
    kirkla - yes I was once exactly where ol' ALIENated is now. It's MOIDER!!!!!!! But that's like one of those ideas that seems really good and common sensical at first but simply doesn't hold up under examination matched against what we ACTUALLY know.
     
    hotaka - actually, if we were not here you would now be eaten by cannibals on a safari that would have been offered to you if you had met that gentleman who you barely missed at the airport because his plane was delayed because he didn't make his flight in time because I pulled up in fron of his cab and made him late.
     
    beyond - if only more Christians believed in the immortal soul.....
     
    diabolic - thanks for the insights...so you pretty much have your pick of the litter over there, eh?? ;)   Yeah, China does that too. Now that's a complete abuse of the procedure, and if that's the only reason for it, that's murder.
     
    kru - thanks
     
    koneko - thanks for your input. I respect your position and demeanor.
     
    Rolling - I, too, am against abortion.
     
    O
     
     
  • hotaka said on Jun 11, 2009....
    I knew there was a reason to suspect that guy in the brown hat!

    The book I mentioned is quite an interesting read because it brings up a number of ethical controversies regarding verious forms of reprogenics. It also covers how some of these issues have originally provoked shock and disgust from many more conservative people but as these practices have become useful people's attitudes have changed. A good number of states made the act of surrogate motherhood illegal after the big story of Baby M in the 80s but now there are numerous agencies for surrogate mothers across the U.S. Part of the reason for opposition to the various methods of reprogenics are related to Christian morals and God, as you pointed out, but actually stray far from the scientifically proven truth. As you mentioned in part and the book points out, human eggs and sperm are naturally "wasted" in huge amounts. Furthermore, if we regard any living cell - and any living cell can be used to create life - as a living thing with the potential to create a human life, then simply washing our hands is mass murder as we scrubs away skin cells.

    Most of what we perceive and understand about nature on an emmotional level is all between the ears.
  • $ati$fiedCu$tomer said on Jun 11, 2009....
    Just read the post again - I think I caught a glitch too for a second there but now I think it's the same as I saw yesterday - YES it IS A THREAT to the stonewalling sticklers to black and white choices - - -
     
     
    AND you don't expect them to have the imagination to look at things fromj YOUR POV do ya MooNguy - you are, after all, out of this world!!!!
     
    I don't post on soulcast but i think it sucks that posts can be hacked. What;s the whole objective of forums like this anyway? Takes all types to make a world...........
  • StoneMaster said on Jun 11, 2009....
    Huh???? Nevefr heard of this before!! People are getting their blogs hacked???
     
    I never weigh in on these "controversies" because they always (ALMOST!!) get nasty and not in a FUN way.
     
    I think there has to be options. REGULATED OPTIONS by the way make more sense. and like some commenter mentioned, the alternative methods will still be there and those are WAY NOT FUN and I believe they involve infections. Repression leads to disease, man!!!!>?>>>>> FREE DA PEOPLE!!!!
     
    pfffffffffffffffffffffffffft.
  • javadewd said on Jun 12, 2009....
    Um... Flaw in logic, mOOn... God did not invent abortion... Humans invented abortion. Nobody has to speak for God, because the bible does that already (choose your translation -- Hebrew OT & Greek NT are the most stable if you can read it). And no, I'm not a bible thumper by any stretch.

    Yes, there are militant pro-lifers out there. I have a few as clients. Personally, if women want to use birth control, the "morning after" or Plan-B pills, then so be it. To take it to the extreme that you're proposing, then what of miscarriages? I only slap the label "murder" on abortion when it's partial birth... The idea of pulling a baby's head out of the womb and punching it with a spike just doesn't scream "medical procedure heavily regulated and monitored" to me. BO likes it, just not in his house.

    Call me a huffy right-wing extremist if you want... Fucking liberals are already calling me a sexist and a racist already! Otherwise I liked some of the points you brought up.
  • travelr712 said on Jun 12, 2009....
    there is a flaw in your logic jd. many had to 'speak for god', because all of the writings in the bible were by men, not god. in fact, it is pure speculation that there is any diety whatsoever that had any part in those writings, or that any such diety even exists. it must be purely taken on faith that this text had any influence whatever from such diety, so it cannot be used as factual evidence in a discussion other than that the text itself exists and that the text says this or that, not that what the text says is true.
  • javadewd said on Jun 12, 2009....
    Hey, dickhead, haven't you ever heard of the Stranger on the Road to Emmaus? I just love it when some secular progressive fuck tard with his head up his ass goes the whole route of "the writings in the bible were by men" when they know damn well that they were divinely inspired. You really think a bunch of Egyptian rejects with practically no education just "came up with this shit" one day? You've got to be fucking retarded!

    To make matters worse, if "there is no God" then go fuck your dog and say goodnight, Gracie! It doesn't squelch the fact that God didn't invent abortion, that was man's creation. It also doesn't squelch the fact that there were heathens (you're probably related to a few of them, you douche bag) that were killing their kids as sacrifices to Molech and by doing so people actually thought that they would be blessed by that god, too. So who's the bigger dupe? Those who faithfully followed a diety in a book or those who threw their kids in the fire because they felt that their children were a burden??

    Now I'm sure mOOn realizes that I pointed out a flaw based on a misnomer that God somehow invented abortion, which is simply unfounded and not true. If you don't believe in God, then fuck off, I wasn't talking to your heathen ass anyway, you tool.

    And since when do you have any right to say what is factual evidence in a discussion? Are you now our lone fucking authority on what is fact and evidence? Last time I looked, you are but a shit pile of a man. What authority are you? List your credentials or shut the fuck up, sack lick. Nobody has to speak for God. Nobody.
  • mOOn_platOOn said on Jun 12, 2009....
    O

    Gentlemen, let's keep in mind I intend to maintain a civil tone in here. I don't have time right now to address the latest comments, but I will.

    Meanwhile, let's not cover old ground and get into the insult arena, okay? I'm okay with ANY opinions presented cordially. I want people to feel free to speak of their experiences here without undue hostility. Contention, okay, but keep the grudge matches on another post.

    O
  • javadewd said on Jun 12, 2009....
    Yes, sir.
  • travelr712 said on Jun 12, 2009....
    i was not addressing whether any diety did or did not invent abortion jd. i was addressing your comment that no one has to speak for god because the bible did already, which is a contradiction in logic since all the writings in that book were by men, thus, they spoke for that god. this is a self evident truth. you are entitled to your assertions that those writings were 'inspired' by this or that diety, but you have no way of proving that they were, thus they cannot be considered factual evidence. your opinion of my character has no bearing on anything presented in this discussion whatsoever. whether you like me or not still does not change the fact that those books were written by men, thus they were speaking for 'god'.
  • javadewd said on Jun 12, 2009....
    They were not speaking for God. You simply don't know what you are talking about. The flaw I was addressing... Why do I even argue with you? You're just a tool. You believe in yourself and whatever you see. To you, I probably don't even really exist. Poor mOOn probably doesn't even really exist in your mind. I'm probably not even a person. Why not? You can't see me. All you see is this text. I obviously don't exist to you. That's your rational logical thinking, because you're just a tool.
  • travelr712 said on Jun 12, 2009....
    no, jd, i am mearly pointing out a fallacy sold by the church for thousands of years.
     
    as to your sentance "They were not speaking for God.", moses when he stood before pharoah, quoted 'thus sayeth the lord..'. this was not 'god' speaking, it was moses speaking for 'god'. if i ask you to tell fraggles that i'll help her move, when you deliver my message to her, it is not me speaking, it is you speaking for me. fraggles can choose to believe that i truely did give you that message, but until i show up, or call her and confirm, she has no actual proof that i gave you that message.
     
    now, you are asking me to believe that you have a greater understanding of these matters than i, but offering no proof that you do. you only offer character aspersions, which are highly unconvincing and in fact lessen your credibility. this is known as an 'ad hominem', or 'to the man' argument, one that attempts to distract from the real debate by demeaning the character of the opponent, not refuting the argument he presents.
     
    so, offer some proof that any diety was involved in the writings of those texts, or they cannot be accepted as authoritative.
  • mOOn_platOOn said on Jun 12, 2009....

    O

    java - thanks for commenting. To address your points:

    Um... Flaw in logic, mOOn... God did not invent abortion... Humans invented abortion.

    Here's my take on that: I've never understood how people can Thank God for the good stuff and blame Satan for the bad. Satan ain't God's equal. God created everything and so allows for evil (allows Satan to exist). So ultimately, God is responsible for everything. Everything includes abortion. This whole shebang is God's set-up, is it not? Or, is it not?

    Nobody has to speak for God, because the bible does that already (choose your translation -- Hebrew OT & Greek NT are the most stable if you can read it).

    Hmmm. Well, applying the above logic about God being responsible for everything - yes, I would have to agree (if I believed in that logical path). You might agree that, regarding the New Testament, men put it all together and did some editing? And to this day they (who Speak For God) are still editing? So whether God needs a spokeperson or not, there are an abundance of volunteers. Personally, I appreciate great writing within its historical context and that's what I consider any version of The Bible to be. I'd love to see those tablets with the lightning script, though!

    To take it to the extreme that you're proposing, then what of miscarriages?

    Honestly not following you here. My only proposal is to keep abortion out in the open where we can see what's going on. Are you talking about some specific idea I was playing around with? Sorry.

    I only slap the label "murder" on abortion when it's partial birth... The idea of pulling a baby's head out of the womb and punching it with a spike just doesn't scream "medical procedure heavily regulated and monitored" to me.

    Without knowing EXACTLY what you're referring to, sounds like murder. As I mentioned in the post, I don't even want abortion considered beyond the first conscious movement of the fetus, unless a life-threatening condition is attached. My objection to throwing around the term "murder" loosely is that it's only political sensationalism to call every termination procedure homocide. It clouds the debate, stonewalls real conversation and reveals its users to be intransigent extremists. Don't be surprised if the whacky gunman one day is ALIENated, finally gone over the top.

    I doubt that many folk who've read my earlier political posts would call me a liberal. I have as many "conservative" stands as "liberal," maybe even more. But I don't expect to find candidates or friends who agree with me on all issues, and I'm not going to call my sister a murderer for getting a legal operation.

    O

     

  • javadewd said on Jun 12, 2009....
    mOOn -- God is not the author of sin WCF-Chapter III, but if you don't believe in God anyway (like some people) then there is no sin and there is no God. If Trav wants to get on a soap box here, he's merely attempting to marginalize my existence and that makes him a tool, because he assumes that I exist yet has never seen me, yet sets God and the Christian religion to the same bar. This is not even relative as a character assassination it is the very attack on my first amendment rights and constitutes a violation of my civil liberties. If I were black, it would be a hate crime. His statement is filled with hate and is irresponsible. He has been doing this to me for what seems like weeks now!

    I would love to be able to be as adept as some to read the original hebrew and greek. In the meantime, those who offer what they do in reference to the translations are sufficient for me. As for the tablets, me too. Until then, I'll still simply believe.

    On miscarriages, technically that would be involuntary manslaughter -- if in fact the bar was set that life begins at conception, which I tend to disagree with myself -- since the fetus would have been considered alive and then damaged unto death. Would the mother then be accused of this crime? To me it seems quite absurd. I think from then on I agree with you.

    Now as to Trav's assertion that God can't speak on his own is refuted by many instances in the bible wherever it states "God said," of which Trav asserts that the bible is a fictional book and God is a fictional character and therefore since neither one exist to him, he wishes to again not at all try to refute or solidify the claim that man speaks for God, but rather that there is no God and man who believes in God is basically insane and therefore in his little "hit-n-run" comment wants to as he claims "merely(sp) [point] out a fallacy sold by the church for thousands of years." He has no credentials, not even a sob story that he was some sort of theologian or theology grad that has since "found the lie of the church," but instead stands on his own merit as a moral authority. He is simply anti-Christ and therefore revolting. Trav cannot get past the fourth word in the first sentence of the bible ("In the beginning God...") so therefore he is no authority of the bible, which he has again deemed fictional. There is no argument here, he is simply a tool. No burning bush is going to convince him otherwise and if Christ Himself descended from the clouds and landed right on top of him, he'd probably marginalize it as some hippie in a toga fell out of an airplane. His religious intolerance alone makes him a hate-monger incapable of seeking any sort of compromise on his crusade. The fact that he decided to grandstand in the middle of your blog should be insulting, but again, it's your blog and possession is 9/10ths of the law here. If you feel the need to wipe my comments and block me, so be it. It's your call. I relented half a dozen comments back as you requested.
  • mOOn_platOOn said on Jun 12, 2009....

    O

    I keep Trav on a long leash 'cause he typically does the biting for me. But I honestly haven't seen him go after people on a personal level.

    Also, it's not anyone's responsibility to prove that something intangible doesn't exist. In fact, that would seem an impossible task. If I assert that something exists and ask you to share my belief and you ask for proof first, the burden of proof (if I choose to make the effort) is on me.

    I appreciate the restraint.

    O

  • hotaka said on Jun 12, 2009....
    Throughout history there have been many versions of what exactly God is the author of and what he isn't. Following the modern day Christian version is only one version. In early Christian times the Catholic Church didn't even support sex in marriage or marriage itself because sex was a means of the devil to corrupt God's creation. Marriage was overseen by a priest only to be certain that the couple made their promises to each other before God. Sex was tolerated only because without it the species would quickly die off, at least in Christian areas it would. These days sex is regarded as a gift of God for married couples. The Church has changed its view on a number of issues over the centuries. It no longer supports burning people at the stake either. Pick other religious views from around the world during different periods of history and you will find what God created and what God wants from us is different from place to place, time to time. The Christian view has survived largely because other variations of the theme that cropped up in medieval times were stamped out by the Church. So, I think it is difficult to have this discussion using arguments of God's will, God's intentions, and what God is responsibe for creating. In one sense, God created the human brain which understands that abortion prevents childbirth. If you want to delve into the argument concerning the Tree of Knowledge and the Original Sin then you get into the whole argument about why all-seeing God put Adam and Eve within reach of the tree and let them eat from it knowing the consequences.
  • hotaka said on Jun 12, 2009....
    Also, (I am back and leaving again soon) to say that God said this and that and it is true is nothing more than heresay, which is subject to amendment. Moreover, much of the OT and the NT is a combination of historical events recorded to support the story the story teller wishes to pass on, mythological takes on actual events, and previously told mythological tales borrowed from older religions. Christianity didn't just suddenly appear fresh and new. It took several minds to digest actual events and turn them into a new religion by mixing the events with stories already familiar to the masses. Even then the early Christian leaders couldn't agree on everything and only saw eye to eye when they could agree on what posed a threat to their religion. God may have spoken but in between there is a lot of fill that evolves with society and gets "edited" from tiem to time.
  • gingersoul said on Jun 12, 2009....
    Well said, Hottie.
    I was going to point out the exact same things.

    Again, putting God in the mouth is the easiest way to divide and judge.

    The crucial necessity to control and regulate the ability of women to give birth is at the base of any society.

    The witch hunt has not been done for defending the pure souls from the invasion of the Evil. The witches were simply midwives, healers,  but their existences were considered  subversive in the scheme of a structured and conservative social system.

    They were performing abortions on women often exhausted by multiple births and harsh life conditions....therefore they needed to be punished and prosecuted in the name of God.

    It was only a matter of male power and male rules. Nothing to do with God.

    History always repeats herself.
  • travelr712 said on Jun 12, 2009....
    i have no problem believing you exist jd, because you respond under your chosen screen name directly to my questions and comments. let's try that same test with 'god':
     
    hey god, is abortion right or wrong?
     
    now, being all knowing as is prescribed by christian doctrine, he knows i wrote that question on this post. if he exists, he can answer me directly. let's wait and see, shall we?
     
    i also never said that any diety 'could not speak for themselves'. i said you made a logical error by saying that 'Nobody has to speak for God, because the bible does that already' when that text is an example of men speaking for their god, not their god itself speaking. your responses to me show plainly your irrationality on the subject.
     
    look jd, i don't know why you all the sudden decided i was the devil incarnate, perhaps it was because i disagreed with you when you said i should beat the shit outa some guy in chucky cheese, which is not an example of 'turn the other cheek'. perhaps, like many christians i run into, you have a problem with people who do not share or acknowledge the authority of your belief system, especially when they ask you for some tangable proof. which, btw, is not a character assassination, an attack on your right of free speach, or a hate crime. it is merely a statement of fact that an intangible cannot be offered as authoritative proof in a discussion unless all sides agree on the validity of that intangible. but whatever the reason, i can assure you that your blatent character assassinations of me do not bother me in the least, and i do not share such a negative view of you.
     
    moon, i have, from time to time, gone on the offensive as to a person's character here, but that has always been directed toward just one group of people who's only purpose here was to shut this site down. otherwise, people can pretty much say what they want, and so can i.
     
     
  • javadewd said on Jun 13, 2009....
    Being all-seeing and all-knowing and all-powerful, patient and merciful, I'm sure you'll get your answer in due time. I don't have to answer for him. I'm not even going to tantalize you by acknowledging that you're being disrespectful and mocking. Had you even bothered to read the synopsis of SotRtE you would have seen how in Luke 24 it is plainly written that Christ appeared to two of his disciples and pointed out that the OT was all about Him. I'm sure that you wouldn't understand and conclude that even if you could understand, you certainly wouldn't acknowledge it anyway. Again, why do I bother?

    There is this farce that Christians are pacifists and doormats, Trav. It simply is not true. Humans are totally depraved. David Letterman pretty much proved that by sinking to the depths of such to get a laugh and 2/10ths of a rise on his ratings by going after Palin's daughter (either one it doesn't matter). This is the same type of farce that the killer of Dr. Tiller was pro-life. If somebody is for life, why would they murder somebody? Doesn't make sense, does it?

    If you think I'm going to take your bullshit and then "turn the other cheek," then you're mistaken. There is another farce that people who are anti-Christ are the "devil incarnate" or "the" anti-Christ and that is also a great illustration of your means to try to marginalize something you don't understand. To be anti-Christ is to denounce His existence and the work that He did for fallen sinners, but if you choose to proudly don the shroud of "devil incarnate" as some sort of foolish scarlet letter or badge of pride to further your toolage, then so be it.

    Now when I have a conversation, especially with a child or someone who is in their youth -- for example my wife's little sister who we babysat last night because their mom was once again rushed to the emergency room -- and they tell me that the Easter bunny is real, or in the same conversation that Santa Claus is real, I don't sit in my haughty seat of judgment and chastise them because of the "lies told throughout history" about those damn pagans and their bunny or the various "lies told throughout history" about some fat old guy in a red jacket with a fluffy white beard. I make this comparison for you, who obviously believes that God, Christ and so forth are nothing more than a 'faerie tale.'

    My point is that for you -- or anybody -- who actually has a belief system take great offense to people like you who prefer to rail on or target any belief system that you do not share. Had I been a Muslim, Hindu or even Saami, I am certain you wouldn't have taken a second glance. It is true with all of you secular progressives... Always attack the Christian faith, nothing more, where's the harm? Compare us directly with Roman Catholics or the Crusades or even the Spanish Inquisition why don't you. Why not? It's all "part of our heritage" right? We've been "the evil" of this world for over a millenia and have "killed more people than any religion in the world" short of course Islam... But we can't talk about that.

    The truth -- albeit subjective to you -- is that the very source I cited, the Westminster Confession of Faith was used to cite and confirm the Christian religion before tyrannical kings in Britian. I don't have to prove it, it is a proof, but only if you subscribe to the bible. Since you don't its significance to you (and others who find any reason whatsoever to dispise Christianity in short order) is moot. To the better educated, it describes how the Protestants believe that the bible describes its Jewish heritage and that the Roman Catholic church is... Anti-Christ and therefore strips it of any authority at all, much less to "speak for God" as you've been trying to imply. In the Crusades they went against the Jews... That doesn't sound like Judeo-Christian heritage to me, that sound like Barbarism and totally backwards. The same goes for the Inquisition, which is the period which Hotaka and GingerSoul are describing. No need to bash them, it's simply what they know and that's fine by me. As much as I'd prefer people to do a little research, I don't attack their beliefs.

    If you say it isn't an attack on my freedom of speech, freedom of religion (freedom from religious persecution) or a hate crime, it simply must be true, because you say so. Somehow you've already considered yourself judge, jury and executioner in the matter. You have proven through your own statements that you have in fact
    "gone on the offensive as to a person's character here," and have targeted "just one group of people," but I had no problem with mOOn's assessment, simply his rationale concerning the statement over God inventing abortion. mOOn was able to respond and I guess it's sufficient, but for you to grab the mic and blast your hate at me was totally deserving of a beat-down. My only apologies are to mOOn, who could have circumvented your actions better than I, and a thanks to him for his tolerance of you and I both. It's his blog.
  • mOOn_platOOn said on Jun 13, 2009....
    O
     
    Fine. Now let's all go get a beer and talk about the Lakers.
     
    O
  • travelr712 said on Jun 13, 2009....
    i'm all for a beer moon, but why do you want to talk about people who live around lakes?
  • javadewd said on Jun 13, 2009....
    Pfft. Good one, Trav. I just blew ice tea out my nose!

Comment on "keep abOrtiOn Out Of the clOset - gOd save us frOm yOur fOllOwers"


(Separate tags using commas, for example: New York, dating, vegetarian)

...language in the current House bill already segregates federal money so it cannot be used directly to fund abortions, and the proposed amendment would effectively ban abortion coverage for some who have it now....