I know what they both want. You do too. You have heard their arguments against one another ad infinitum. But it goes farther than that.
What they want most is power and control over the other to thrust upon all, their particular beliefs which are immovable and many times declared by God himself, so they say.
Of course, the rest of us cannot allow either to gain that total control because both would become a tyranny. That's how good they really are. That's how pleasurable it is to know they are there, waiting for the moment to make us slaves to their beliefs.
It is like two minds seeing with telescopes. They focus on tiny areas with what they think is great clarity when in fact they are missing the world view of everything else in existence.
Their beliefs are etched in the stone of narrowmindedness, they gallop through the wind like a hornet with only a stinger for a body, ready to poison the thoughts of compromise and clear thinking and our very liberty. Homeland security has no farther to go than our own shores to find and locate the greatest danger to society, the right wing-left wing psycho-shit.
In their bliss, they spread hatred and like sheep, pave the way for the extreme elite to plunder your home, your future, your very soul. And our so-called 'leaders' fall into the same trap.
Let us for a moment enter into the most astounding science fiction, that of a government whose very reason for existence is remembered and morally accepted as its duty - to serve the people; a people who entered a voting booth and cast their hope for the future.
These people, the ones who do not condone the psycho-shit are in reality left with vain, simple minded, left or right thinking hypocrites, who are after only personal gain and the retention of their personal power. And they both grab money hand over fist from the corporate world and are lap dogs to the bankers, the very ones our founding fathers feared most.
The bulk of the population, the center or near right or left to center, are left to wallow in the cesspool of far right, far left, and the political scum. We are robbed (along with the psycho-shits), beaten, insulted, demeaned, and left to flounder in the extremities of these blunderheads of society and their simple witted direction of self destruction with us in tow.
I realize the need for different opinions, for different sides to issues and ways to obtain a better future for all, but I am also sick of extremes and their self- fulfilling and condescending attitudes of the God-like pissants they have become.
I yearn for reason instead of iron clad dribble.
I yearn for discussion and debate instead of political infighting.
I yearn for people who will at least consider the thoughts of others, that there may actually be a better way than theirs. Only to consider would be a step forward.
I yearn for Lincoln, for Washington, for Jefferson, for the signers of the Declaration of Independence who laid their life and that of their family on the line in the hopes their deeds would provide the basis of a great country.
But they are dead and with death, their courage.
And with them many of the virtues they risked all for,
a land of liberty, of the people, by the people, and for the people.
beyondtheveil posted on May 18, 2009
| views: 498
Comments
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Hegemone said on May 18, 2009....
Hmmm ... *steps up quietly* I'm with you on needing Washington, Lincoln, et al and their attitudes, values, promises, etc. back, and it's nearly paralyzing knowing that that won't happen. It makes a person fall into despair quiet easily. What would these men be saying? How harsh would their tongues be because of all the mistakes we have made along the way to this point in time? I don't know what needs to happen to fix this, and I'm pretty sure that only the whatever greater force that exhists (i.e. God or whatever) will know that. I do know that I'm not sure I would want to face Washington, Lincoln, etc. with the shame of what we've done to ourselves.
Did I miss the humor, because this really only put me in a very somber mood. Blah.
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superbozo said on May 18, 2009....
There are idiots on both sides. The number of idiots seem to be multiplying too. I find it hard to comment on american politics being an aussie. I do read the posts from time to time and think I understand what your getting at. I'm reduced to tears of laughter by some. It's so crazy its funny. :) -
beyondtheveil said on May 18, 2009....
hege- The humor tag was sarcasm. I've often wondered what those guys would think of us now too. It was another time, but thought and courage are just that at any time.
super- Perhaps your laughter has caught the problem.
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speaking_up said on May 18, 2009....
I'm laughing.In applause. -
fragglesrock said on May 18, 2009....
"I yearn for people who will at least consider the thoughts of others, that there may actually be a better way than theirs. Only to consider would be a step forward." well said
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beyondtheveil said on May 18, 2009....
speaking- Thank you. Only the center of thought, that which can see in all directions, could see what this post is saying and not condemn it sentence by sentence. Most of us here are capable of worth while expression.
fraggles- That one sentence holds the essence of what it takes to move forward.
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secretlife said on May 18, 2009....
the way i see it, common sense has flown the coop-
instead we have politicians who twist truth, choose every frigging word carefully in order to deceive, and who want nothing but power and a stage for their ideology.
i know one thing for certain tho beyond, the party in power now does not honor what our founding fathers did- and unfortunately, the day is coming when Americans will realize the mistake they made was believing the lies of yet another politician.
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beyondtheveil said on May 18, 2009....
secret- So true, every word, but I see no honor anywhere. They have all deceived us for so long and continue to do so. Them, their talking heads and their so called bases using their propaganda to deliver us to them on a platter. They talk of country, of Constitution and belittle it all in their very name.
Disgust, that's what I feel.
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speaking_up said on May 18, 2009....
Amen. But the good news is we are not alone. Even (moral and decent, thoughtful and intelligent) republicans are fed up with the extremists who have been running this country, with our blind permission. -
D6fer said on May 18, 2009....
so I am guessing that you somehow think that Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson were "Centrists"? -
speaking_up said on May 18, 2009....
LOL -
ALIENated said on May 18, 2009....
While I agree with you to a certain degree (there are a lot of morons in D.C. from both parties), I think there are pure differences in the party platforms. I, of course, agree more with the Republican party platform. Call it what you like, but I think you take the easy way out, saying that everything is psycho-shit. There is right and there is wrong, and Republicans are more for right and Democrats are more for wrong, as far as I am concerned. I think people are judging the Republican party, right now, based on the picture painted by Hollywood and the liberal mainstream media over the last several years while they ignore the lies of Democrats like Pelosi. Even Catholics (at Notre Dame) ignore the barbarism of Borax. Psycho? Yes, the psychos are now running our government as far as I am concerned. The family is the basic building block of any successful society. Most everything the Democrats now stand for undermines the family (abortion, homosexual unions, etc.) and spits in the face of religion. Democrats seem to care more for Mexicans crossing the border illegally and radical Muslims than they do for the security of this country. I could go on, but I am sure you have stopped listening. I have to agree that you get fewer headaches if you just do not think about all the crap Borax is about to brind down on us or if you just decide that everyone is crazy. I really do not care about that. They thought Jesus was crazy, too.
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speaking_up said on May 18, 2009....
Alien..."(there are a lot of morons in D.C. from both parties)"You didn't really say this, did you? *shaking head at the miracle*"There is right and there is wrong, and Republicans are more for right and Democrats are more for wrong, as far as I am concerned."Ah, now there's the alien I've come to know and love..."I think people are judging the Republican party, right now, based on the picture painted by Hollywood"Um, no. Based on the picture Bush and his chronies painted like graffiti all over america."Most everything the Democrats now stand for undermines the family (abortion, homosexual unions, etc.) and spits in the face of religion."Whose religion? Your religion? Did you consider there are other religions that don't hate certain peoples? Including the Christian one, but the people have come so far removed from what Christ actually taught, you wouldn't know that. And, my other comment about this...(and I cannot believe I am saying it)...THANK GOD FOR THE DEMOCRATS!"They thought Jesus was crazy, too."Whose they?Alien...*sigh* You know the dogma...you have the religious training...but you have missed the spiritual key to what the good news was all about. The Christ I know would be horrified at what is being said and done against certain groups in His name.But you wouldn't know because you don't seem to know Him at all. -
beyondtheveil said on May 18, 2009....
speaking- Then perhaps changes at the voting booth will remove the "government" we have and provide a lot of one term politicians until they get the message. One can only hope.
d6- I am suggesting that those three men were capable of deep thought on all issues and above all held the country and its people first and foremost instead of their own advancement through graft, lies, hypocrisy, and vanity. Also, it must be remembered that one cannot make direct comparisons from a people whose recent ancestry was European in the 1700's to the two hundred years later of today. A lot has been learned in that time even they could not contemplate. Compare our congress with the men who established this country in ability to think, courage, and moral fiber.
alien- I'm only asking for reasonable thought toward all people, equal rights extended to all people, and the government thinking about its people. There are differences in platforms, but little difference in actions and outcomes between the two. We seem to end up knee deep in shit regardless of which party is in power that is due to the complete lack of morals, courage, and concern for us which is the only reason for their existence. Then to top it off, there is a percentage of the population who back these criminals, left or right, and only serve to give them impetus instead of getting rid of their worthless asses.
As far as Mexicans are concerned, before Mexicans it was Irish or some other group sailing by the Statue of Liberty, just like your ancestors.
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ALIENated said on May 19, 2009....
I have no problem with Mexicans. I have a problem with illegal immigrants of any kind. That is part of my problem with the Democrats. They are willing to ignore the illegal part and they call Republicans bigots because they do not. How are Republicans the bad guys there? I really think we have people in D.C. that represent us. It is just that about half of us want certain things and the other half want just the opposite things. We now disagree about 50/50 on what is right and wrong. In the past most of us agreed on most basic issues (especially issues of morality and religion) and disagreed on a few things like how much tax to pay. We are living in a time that morality is breaking down and religion is taking a back seat to atheism and paganism. And you know which side is supporting that breakdown. Borax not only wants abortion, but wants aborted babies left to die if they somehow make it. Even Dennis Miller (closet liberal) was talking about that yesterday. How do you compromise with that kind of barbarism, with that kind of twisted thinking? I cannot no matter how many names you call me. There are gray areas, but there is right and there is wrong. If Democrats woke up tomorrow and revised their thinking on things like abortion and mental illness (homosexuality), they would get my vote. I do not vote for a candidate based on party. I vote for someone based on right and wrong. There is confusion in Washington these days because people likie Dubya and Borax say one thing to get elected and then do nothing or do the opposite once they are elected. Ronald Reagan was one of the best presidents ever because he told us what he was going to do and then he did it. Like it or not, we got what we expected. Thank God Borax does not have the balls to do anything and his only promise was "change", whatever that is supposed to mean. If he changed the liberal direction away from atheism and paganism, that would be a change, but I think we all know that is not going to happen. The Republicans may be confused on some things, but the Democrats have sold their souls to the devil and you will not easily convince me otherwise. How many laws do you see the Republicans trying to pass (like hate crime laws) that try to criminalize the way you THINK? We are in big trouble when government is trying to regulate the way we think, and that is the next area Democrats want to get into. That should be a big red flag to anyone that loves liberty and freedom.
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GrapeKoolaid said on May 19, 2009....
[puts on tinfoil hat]
It's a classic divide and conquer strategy, a part of the grand illusion.
Both parties have lobbyists and corporate paymasters they have to answer to, much more than their base.
The haves pretend like they're ideologically opposed so that the have nots are forced to choose sides, thereby eliminating the chance of class warfare.
This combined with bread and circuses, keeps the American public asleep at the switch. They bought it hook, line and sinker. There are a few that are still awake, but I don't think there's enough of them...
Alien: The Republican party shot themselves in the foot and became a regional party by appealing to the social conservatives, bible belt and the military industrial complex lobbyists. (Basically, all white people, which might soon be marginalized as people in the US if the current demographic shifts hold) They would have done better appealing to the fiscal conservatives and smaller, limited government types. That would pose a more contrast opposition to liberals, don't you think?
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beyondtheveil said on May 19, 2009....
alien- I don't think morals are breaking down, I think they are being tested against inevitable change. Everything changes and a lot of people don't like change which is understandable. I didn't like the changes of the so-called sexual revolution for several reasons. I'll backtrack on the Mexican thing because I believe in sovereignty and following the rule of law. Its disliking people because they are different that I don't like. The republicans share the blame in illegal immigration because they do nothing just like the dems. They both want it due to the money made by their business friends and sometimes themselves. What little bush did was for show. The main difference between us on viewing the parties is that I think they are both equally flawed in the long run in almost all aspects.
grape- I can agree with what you said both to me and alien. I do think bush shot the biggest bullet into their foot, though, at least in the short run. Truth be told, nobody really liked the bush administration. Even alien, d6fer, and SMB have problems with it.
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speaking_up said on May 19, 2009....
If our forefathers followed the rule of law and not entered this country illegally in record numbers, most of us wouldn't be here right now.A little history...It was 1750. PA was desperate for workers to build the state and so they recruited the well known carpenters of Germany by offering free land if they would come to our country and help build PA. The Germans were sly little devils, in addition to being superior builders, took america up on the offer and landed on our shores, lock stock and barrel. Only they had other plans.Once their passage was paid by america, and land handed over...record numbers of them hit the road for better futures in Virginia. There is where many of them decided was a better place to be. However, it was not what the government had in mind, and there was much knashing of teeth.My g.g.g.g.g.g.g.g.g.g.g.g.grandfather, peter, brought along his norwegian wife, and they started their family and began to help build virginia on the dollars of the americans who wanted PA built! Of course, Peter wasn't alone in pulling the wool over the eyes of the government; it was an epidemic problem back in 1750.Today there is a town named after my family ancestors in virginia, About 5 miles west of ______. Peter and his sons, and their sons and their sons are in the local cemetary. In 2000, after taking the train across the country to find my roots, I saw their school, museum, cemetary, and how well respected these people were back in the day. These people, and their g.g.g.g.g.g.g.g..g.g.gchildren, are well respected people who have contributed to the country ever since their 'illegal' arrival.I have a big book of family history, as well as letters within the book to prove this 4" book full of my forefathers history is true. I know the names of each of my family line (Peter, Peter Jr., Henry, Henry Jr, Henry III, Levi, Gilbert, George, then comes me)...Perhaps if more of us knew our personal backgrounds, and how we were so lucky to be in america, we would be less inclined to be unwelcoming to foreigners.Ah, I just wanted to share that...good times... -
ALIENated said on May 19, 2009....
... on viewing the parties is that I think they are both equally flawed in the long run in almost all aspects. They are both flawed because they are made up of human beings. I am talking theory, platform, etc. I do not agree 100 percent with the Republicans party (I actually do not give a crap about most issues), but I agree with them far more than I agree with Democrats. In my opinion, the Democrat party has become the haven of all that wrong with America these days and all that is dragging us down. Even the Muslims hate us because of our deals with the devil and our debauchery. America is in the slop and mud with the pigs, and they know it. Abortion alone is enough to keep me voting Republican even if they do nothing about it. Maybe someday they will wake up and listen. If neither party makes a stand against abortion or the homosexual agenda, I will be done voting. In 1750, just about everyone carried guns, had slaves, and hung black people if they were of a mind to. What is the point? No one obeyed the law in 1750 so we should ignore the law now? My ancestors came here legally, as far as I know. I think the illegal immigrant problem is easy. If you get caught for any reason, by the cops, they ship your ass home and whining liberals shut up about it. Why do they really care? Bush was like all ball-less Republicans -- he was trying his best to placate the whining liberal Democrats, the Mexican lobbies, and his relatives (some of which are hispanic, as I understand it). Republicans will get somewhere when they run on a conservative platform and then get in office and kick ass, as Ronald Reagan did.
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secretlife said on May 19, 2009....
speaking:don't assume people don't know their ancestors. i've seen mine in the records at Ellis Island as they came into this country LEGALLY.And I'm sick and tired of people thinking it's ok to bankrupt this country allowing illegals in. People want to understand the problems with our schools? Our healthcare system? Just look at how many illegals we are paying for.And why have borders if we aren't going to enforce them?And you cannot possibly believe we are unwelcoming of foreigners.....that is just pure crap.We are speaking of people who come here illegally- otherwise i'd say this country was THE MOST WELCOMING of foreigners. -
GrapeKoolaid said on May 19, 2009....
Beyond: What you say is true. Bush & Co. ruined the Republican party for at least a generation, if not doomed it to be a regional voice for good. Here's the thing though: Red state a$$holes make good comic fodder, you know? I can at least derive a chuckle out of their knucklehead behavior. There's a sense of smugness to liberals that I detest. They're mostly just twits who want to feel superior for having an inclusive worldview. What they're basically saying is that with enough education and social conditioning, everyone can be white. If that doesn't smack of racism, I don't know what does. I don't think one should be so glib in discussing such important matters.
The thing is, social liberals are just as dogmatic in their beliefs as social conservatives. Secular humanism has all the trappings of a religion (books, priests rituals) and operate within the boundaries of faith, not so different from protestantism, which doesn't derive divine authority from the holy see and therefore, quite arbitrary.
secret: Here's an interesting question that I've had for a while and you reminded me of it again. How does a country remain at war (on poverty, drugs, terrorism) and keep their borders open? I think that the answer is because transnational corporations aren't beholden to any statecraft. They have no loyalties, and it's in their best interest to keep the borders open, so that the money can flow in and out more easily.
While I agree that our schools, the healthcare system et al. maybe burdened by illegal immigrants, I disagree on the notion that Illegal immigrants are bankrupting this country. I would say that greed and gross maleficense are greater culprits. The illegal immigrants form a workforce in this country. Does jobs no one else wants to do. Wage slavery. Much better than indentured servitude, because as an employer, you don't have to provide them with insurance, or a living wage even.
I would argue that this is a symptom of a greater disease. Having low wage workers disrupts true innovation. Why think about plant/factory/farm efficiency when there's an army of workers willing to work for dollars a day?
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D6fer said on May 19, 2009....
beyond.....are you aware that only about 1/3 of the population prior to the revolutionary war supported the effort?.....that means that Washington and Jefferson were on the fringe......maybe that is where all of the ideas come from? -
secretlife said on May 20, 2009....
grape: with unemployment at a 25 year high, and with approx 7 million illegals holding jobs in this country, and not paying INTO the System to maintain anything in tihs country, i don't think it's unfair to say that we're being bankrupted. in fact, so many issues that are being discussed over and over and over again like health care costs and our public schools can be made better immediately by taking out the expense of taxpayer burden for illegals- i know first hand what it's like grape to pay from my own tax dollar to send children of illegal immigrants to my public schools--- and have the 'system' turn a blind eye knowing full well that the monies they have cannot be stretched. our children pay. the people who are here legally pay- and what would be the incentive for anyone to act in accordance with the laws of this country unless they are enforced? it's like having geithner running the treasury, isn't it? he doesn't pay taxes but gets to tell the rest of us we have to or else? there are processes and laws for a reason. turn a blind eye...ignore and politicize, and you get a mess........
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GrapeKoolaid said on May 20, 2009....
I'm not disagreeing with you in any particular point secret. I think there are many contributors to the country going bankrupt not just financially but morally as well. The thing is, no IT guy that got laid off is going to go work as a field hand picking oranges for dollars a day. Nor is he going to bus tables at a restaurant.
Cheap labor is essential to a capitalist market. The reason why jobs like manufacturing get outsourced to areas where the labor cost is cheaper. Those jobs that get outsourced and are lost in this country are replaced by some crappy service sector job. A job at a steel mill gets replaced by a greeter at Walmart.
Illegal immigration is not a good thing for the country. It is however, a great thing for transnational corporations that need cheap laborers. They obviously have no interest in what's good for any country. They're only interested in the bottom line. See, this is a fundamental problem in society that is based on money. It erodes loyalties in people, erodes the idea of community, society, national identity and notions like patriotism, ultimately promotes and rewards greed.
People who come to this country (legally or illegally) come here because they genuinely believe that their chances of making "it" (whatever that may mean) are better here than their country of origin. This is the attraction and the promise of the new world. I don't begrudge anyone this chance. Not even the first illegal immigrants on Plymouth Rock.
I know what you mean when you speak of the problems regarding illegal immigration, but think of it in this way. Within a generation or two, their descendants will be complaining about the influx of a new ethnic group and how they're ruining the country.
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speaking_up said on May 20, 2009....
@secret...oh! My post was not in favor of illegal immigrants! I just wanted to share my family background as I found it interesting when I learned it.I am not passionate either way, although when times get tough I agree it hurts that low wages are going to foreigners. -
stopmediabias said on May 20, 2009....
Grape-But they are dying, many of them are criminals or unsavory people that no-one would want here. It should be easier for these people to get in here a legal, safe way. A closed militarized border would prevent people from coming in here to die in the desert or become homeless vagrants. We want people to immigrate here, just in a sensible manner that is safe for all sides.
beyond-Political infighting is the engine the fuels the checks and balances. The notion of bipartisanship on clear ideological differences like abortion and taxes is just plain silly and won't work. The two sides have to go at it and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem today in society is the media has taken one side and created such a polarization that many people become blinded by lies. How many people in our society today that are educated smart people and basically brush over misleading headlines and this is the basis of their beliefs? A lot.
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secretlife said on May 20, 2009....
grape: i have two teenagers looking for work this summer.
there are no jobs. they'd work at the minimum wage ones........but this summer there aren't any to be had.
have you looked in mcdonald's lately? you might be surprised.
my last IT manager is now a floor manager at Home Depot.
in a generation or two you won't recognize this country unless you put your foot down and fight for what's right. it's not right for the guy who owns the roofing company to go to a street corner and pick up 20 illegals to do his labor...or for the politicians and anyone else to hire an illegal to be their housekeeper or their nanny- if you condone it, you are part of the problem. i have no issue saying that.
you can't just sit back and say...oh in a few generations they'll be just like us. or in a few generations, this country will not exist-- not the country i want to live in at any rate.
i understand outsourcing- i am part of an industry that has been RAPED by it.
i've lived with the downsizings and the stress of potentially not having gainful employment for just about my entire 25 yr career.
you're right. greed is at the root.
but also it's our fault.
politics is to blame. special interests rule the politiicians. we're supposed to be the ones ruling the politicians tho- we're supposed to be smart enough and informed enough to make these right decisions. but for whatever reason, apathy is the game of the last 10 years as far as i can see-
we need new rules. we need incentives for business to keep jobs here- and we need people who won't give in and say....it's hopeless.
what we have with the current people in charge is lip service to change. in reality it's the same old shit. and the american people are being led down some path by sweet words- i'm disappointed in that i thought we were smarter, but i'm not going to stop fighting for what i believe in despite that.
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GrapeKoolaid said on May 20, 2009....
smb- I don't know why you're wasting your breath on a pinhead.
The fact is that the mismanaged rabid kleptocracy that you wholeheartedly support facilitates open borders. How do you have a war on terrorism (a war on a tactic, btw. That's like declaring war on blitzkrieg. It makes no sense) and keep your borders open? Why would you want to do that? Because money needs to flow in and out.
On a plaque inside the statue of liberty, there's a poem called, "The New Colossus" by Emma Lazarus. A very well known segment reads, " "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
It doesn't say "give me your overpriveleged, your stable, well-balanced, industrious members of your society." Why would any of these people want to leave their homeland for a better opportunity?
Nor does it say "give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses except for Muslims and Mexicans".
secret: I know what you mean. I realized this winter that the jobs that used to be done by neighborhood kids (mow the lawn, shovel driveways in the winter, McJobs) are now done either by people that are overqualified or of questionable working status.
Your example of the IT manager is a good one. I know a Ph. D that waits on tables, too. The point that I'm trying to make is that they're managers and waiters, not cleaners and busboys. (or sharecroppers)
And see, that's just the thing. Illegal immigration is a symptom of a greater problem. As an employer, it's in their best interest to hire the cheapest labor force available in order to maximize profits. There's no incentive in them hiring someone legit, pay taxes on their employment, give them benefits and etc., when they can pay 40 cents on the dollar (cash) and hire some day laborer to do it. While I agree with you that it's not right, the system favors and rewards this type of behavior.
This is what happens when profitability becomes the measure of a person's worth. Unfettered capitalism (I used the term again smb) promotes greed as the highest moral and social good, erodes all other human values. This coupled with the myth of individual exceptionalism, sense of narcissism allows people in power to abuse their position with never before seen brutality, impunity. It's gotten to the point where they're not even hiding it anymore.
As to the shifting demographics, I see it as a rippling effect of history. The legacy of the empire, of colonization. It's an organic process. I don't think it's something that we should so easily put value judgments on.
Don't get me wrong. The Reconquista movement in the southwest is just as racist as the Aryan brotherhood and there is undoubtedly a culture war brewing down there fueled by narco trade.
Sadly, I've come to the conclusion that it might all be too late...
I do admire your tenacity and holding fast to your beliefs, though. :)
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ALIENated said on May 20, 2009....
You go, lady. I do not think Grape is even from here. So I have to take his comments with a grain of salt.
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GrapeKoolaid said on May 20, 2009....
Alien: Right. I've only lived in this country for the last 20 years, educated in this country, more articulate and keenly aware of the situation than a lot of the natives but I wasn't born here, so I shouldn't talk, is that it?
As a son of an immigrant (being 1.5 generation myself), I can say that my parents believe and appreciate this country in ways you never could. I understand the opposite is true, of course. Don't be obtuse. A part of me is envious of that, as I really have no roots whatsoever. The only reason why I bring it up is because I don't think it's something that you've ever considered.
If you're so willing to dismiss what I say on account of the geographic location of my birth, that makes you... a what?
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GrapeKoolaid said on May 20, 2009....
Oh and you know who's shedding a tear for Americans of Europeans descent that are becoming marginalized as people?
The Native Americans.
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speaking_up said on May 20, 2009....
I am still for free enterprise. Employers should have the right to hire whomever they want. I say that being 49 years old, and being sucked out of a profession I have always loved, due to age. 22 year olds are doing what took me years to train to do now, because they are a cheaper wage. In fact, I accepted a job as a cashier recently (it lasted 6 weeks), and walked off the job because of a punk ass toy supervisor who snapped his fingers in my face to say, "stop daydreaming." Can you imagine?However, I will never fault an employer for hiring at market wages. What happened a decade ago was an extreme SHORTAGE of people like me, and we were in high demand; employers were willing to pay much more. Now, such as life, the labor market trends changed and here we go...the kids, mexicans, or whomever get the best jobs for cheap wages, the ones demanding more money for their big skills...well, they'll just sit in the background for a period of time;The smart skilled/professional workers who are in tune with labor market changes, will accept jobs at cheaper wages just to put food on the table.Sorry if I have typo's etc...my contacts are foggy from crying all day and I can't see the freaking screen...gotta go get my eyes changed...@Alien, I'll bet you are pleased as punch the best american idol did not get his award, because he is gay. GOD BLESS AMERICA! -
stopmediabias said on May 21, 2009....
Grape-Brilliant! I actually wasn't talking about the war on terror, I was talking about the Mexicans who die because we have a lax policy of immigration. Your for letting these people sneak across our border putting themselves and our own people at risk? It takes too long to become an immigrant now, we just need to change that. Don't think it is reasonable to do some sort of background check on these people? And I'm the pinhead.
And our former President declared war on those who destroy everything and use terror a means for a political end. We have taken down thousands of these cockroaches and so far we have been successful in preventing further attacks.
And this little gem: "Unfettered capitalism (I used the term again smb) promotes greed as the highest moral and social good, erodes all other human values."
"unfettered capitalism" has brought forth the greatest engine of prosperity and good the world has ever seen. Even the poorest of our poor are considered high on the economic ladder as compared to other countries. How many times does America have to save the world, shell out trillions of dollars to places all of the world in aid before you realize we are the good guys? I would love to see even a smallest shred of proof that shows we promote greed as the highest moral and social good which erodes all other human values. Liberalism erodes human values and I can prove that.
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GrapeKoolaid said on May 21, 2009....
smb- I never called you pinhead. You're the one that called me pinhead for using a term like "unfettered capitalism" on another thread. Apparently you need to work on your reading comprehension skills, not to mention get your memory checked. The problem with people like you is that no one ever taught you proper rhetoric, so you have a tendency to internalize the argument. You can't look at an issue without extricating yourself from it.
I just want you to know that an attack on your position is not an attack on your character.
"unfettered capitalism" has brought forth the greatest engine of prosperity and good the world has ever seen. Even the poorest of our poor are considered high on the economic ladder as compared to other countries. How many times does America have to save the world, shell out trillions of dollars to places all of the world in aid before you realize we are the good guys?
This is the biggest crock I've ever heard. Poor is poor alike. Just because the homeless is sleeping under a bridge as opposed to a field doesn't make his standards of living any better. The dispossessed all over the world have pretty similar living conditions. Tell me how a person living in a tent city in Sacramento is so much better off than a refugee camp in Darfur.
I would love to see even a smallest shred of proof that shows we promote greed as the highest moral and social good which erodes all other human values.
With money as the basis of a society, one promotes profit as the highest good, and greed becomes the order of the day. Notice I haven't really said anything about Capitalism in itself (and I think we can agree that US is not a true capitalist country, but a strange mixture of capitalism and socialism) but "unfettered" capitalism, as in capitalism taken to its illogical extreme, which is what we have now.
Tell me how AIG champions these values you speak of. Tell me how Bernie Madoff was not motivated by greed, because I see these two as a shining example of what I mean when I say that unfettered capitalism erodes human values, especially when people have no sense of history and collective destiny, coupled with a sense of individual exceptionalism (as in "this could never happen to me", or "I'd never get caught") and narcissism allows unprecedented quest for personal gain and even wantonly celebrates it.
Tell me why exporting manufacturing jobs is a good idea again. Tell me why a service sector economy is so much better than an industrial economy.
Liberalism erodes human values and I can prove that.
You don't have to prove to me why liberalism erodes human values. I know why. It's because liberals want everyone to be one big grey race, and they're twits who want to feel superior to you for having an inclusive worldview.
And our former President declared war on those who destroy everything and use terror a means for a political end. We have taken down thousands of these cockroaches and so far we have been successful in preventing further attacks.
That's some serious patriotard bs. Look. If you're going to say "we're going to war with Muslims because we have irreconcilable worldviews", then fine. Just say that. Don't use the lexicon of law to criminalize those who are ideologically opposed. That's just plain dishonest.
And lastly, it's essential for your system to have open borders. Don't complain about Mexicans taking your jobs because it's in the best interest of businesses to hire the cheapest labor force possible, so they import , invite, encourage illegal immigration. They system you support is a part of the problem, not the solution.
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ALIENated said on May 21, 2009....
Sorry Grape, I must be confusing you with someone else. I thought I read in one of your posts that you are in Japan or somewhere. While I am mostly Irish (want to talk about welcome immigrants) I also have a small amount of Native American blood. I have no problem with anyone who comes here by way of the proper channels and obeys our laws.
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stopmediabias said on May 22, 2009....
Grape-My bad, I for seem reason thought you said "I don't know why I am waisting time with a pinhead." Sorry.
On poverty, read any census bureau report on poverty and you will see a consistant % of people regardless of what President is in.
"Tell me how a person living in a tent city in Sacramento is so much better off than a refugee camp in Darfur. "
Are you really serious here? Do you want to have this debate or were you speaking in jest?
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ALIENated said on May 22, 2009....
The Republican party shot themselves in the foot and became a regional party ... Regional party, neocons, ... I love the little catch phrases people are coming up with these days. As I always say, saying it does not make it so. The Republican party is not anything. They are just out of the driver's seat as each party is from time to time. Neither party stays in power for more than eight years, 12 years tops (Reagan then George the first, for example). The last great socialist (FDR) tried to change that, but died instead. If anything, Republicans are do-nothings to a fault. By definition, Republicans want less government, but that, I will admit, does not work all the time. They most likely did not do much about abortion or the homosexual agenda because they think it is none of government's business. Consequently, liberals, and even disgruntled conservatives, can point at them and say they did nothing for eight years. That is obviously not true. They did keep liberals from fucking things up even worse than they did (even if they were not in the driver's seat). And what they did do (keep us safe from terrorist attacks), die hard liberals are now trying to criminalize. Republicans need to stop listening to the cute phrases liberals are using to describe them (regional party, neocons, torturers) and get their act together, start standing up for what they believe to be true, and stop apologizing for knowing the difference between right and wrong.
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speaking_up said on May 22, 2009....
*sigh*I once heard, and then came to believe it myself after observing people like I do, that homophobic people are the way they are because deep down they have an inner gay.The more one stomps their feet in protestation of homosexuals, the more likely of he has feminine qualities of his own - qualities he is not comfortable with.Thus, he turns the tables and points the fingers loudly and clearly against that of which he is afraid of.Food for thought, my dear. -
ALIENated said on May 22, 2009....
Wow, I have never heard that one before. You are what you hate. What a novel concept. I hate war, so I must love war. I love dogs, so I must hate dogs. Try listening to what you say and see how senseless it sounds. Better still, read the novel 1984. The people in there think as you do, too. That is the kind of thinking that got us our current president and dufus congress. However, you demonstrate exactly what I was saying. People come up with these little sayings that seem to explain their point, and there is no counter for it. Bunk. That is like the people around Jesus claiming he worked for the devil. Why would you preach against the devil and work for him at the same time? You keep standing by the closet door, but please do not expect me to jump out of it because I am not in it. ha ha ha ha ha ha And, just for the record, I do not hate homosexuals. I feel sorry for them, that society now accepts their malady and tries to justify it, to their detriment. Plus, by your thinking, you are the one that hates homos since you claim to love homos. You cannot have it both ways. ha ha ha ha ha ha
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speaking_up said on May 22, 2009....
Wow, what a fast reply. And filled with so many references to back yourself up too!I'm impressed.The first part of your argument helped my argument very well. Thanks.You seemed to digress after the first few sentences, however...some tangent I can hardly follow.Remember, you DO love war, you are FOR torture...those who truly HATE war, HATE TORTURE.I imagine you to be a skinny, frail of a man, with pale skin, long fingers, and one who has had difficulty with relationships with women throughout his life.Just my impressions of you, based on your words. -
stopmediabias said on May 22, 2009....
The list is endless- If we don't think amnesty for illegals is ok the we are anti-immigrants, if we think homosexuality should be left in people's personal lives an not out in mainstream we are homophobes, if we don't believe Al Gore we are for polluting, we don't think abortion is ok-doky we are against a woman having civil rights, if we disagree with Dems on interrogation we are pro-torture, no affirmative action = racist, an on and on... -
speaking_up said on May 22, 2009....
you summed it up very well, stop. -
ALIENated said on May 23, 2009....
Ha ha ha. I look nothing like the current president. And most hetero women love me. Ha ha ha
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speaking_up said on May 23, 2009....
takes you a while to have a come-back, huh? ah well, least you came back.*sigh* -
GrapeKoolaid said on May 24, 2009....
Man... See all the fun I miss when I go away for a few days? :)
Alien: You and I've been on here too long for either of us to get offended at anything that we might say to each other (I hope). I think you and I have both been guilty of saying some inflammatory things in the past. Perhaps you're thinking of hotaka, who lives in Japan.
Here's a question for you though: Ellis Island wasn't the only point of entry to the US back then either, right? So I think it's fair to say that the ones "logged" at the Island (mostly northern Europeans) were in fact in the minor and quite a lot more entered the country through other means, like being smuggled aboard cargo vessels or crossing the border from elsewhere. What about them folks?
The point I'm making is that illegal immigration is not something that's "new". Perhaps the frequency in which it happens increased, along with the demographic of the people coming over the border changing, but that's a natural rippling effect in history. More Mexicans are migrating to this country simply due to their geographical proximity.
I do agree with you in a lot of ways. Illegal immigration is something that is not good for this country. For a lot of reasons, it has a destabilizing effect on the country. By lowering the cost of labor, not only does it devalue the work that a person does, it ultimately becomes hostile towards true innovation.
I don't really know what the solution is short of militarizing the border, as smb had suggested, which I agree with. If your country is at war (on drugs, terrorism, illiteracy, poverty, gang violence, greenhouse gases, whatever), it makes no sense to have open borders. But thenagain, I never understood war as a policy instrument anyways, so I'm lost there.
smb: Okay. So my two exmples were a bit skewed. I'll admit that running from roving bands of rape squads with machetes is a lot worse than shaking a cup at the subway station. Though I still make the argument that when your essential needs (food, water, shelter) have been deprived from you, little else matters.
There's a reason why the US ranks 28th in the World Happiness Index. I know. I don't put much stock in pop-psych stuff either. However, when you consider all the stats that factor into formulating this list, the reason why the US ranks so low is largely due to poverty levels. Yes. The values and the system you champion is 28th on the list of the happiest countries in the world. Denmark took the top spot, then Finland The filthy socialists are ahead of the game. The Danes have a constitutional monarchy(!!!) with a parliament that leans heavily towards the social democrats. The wealthy Finns pay up to 52% in taxes, but no one's homeless in either countries, and everyone gets a free college education, not to mention free healthcare. Hm... Howabout that?
speaking up: I think this is precisely the kind of partisan bickering that beyond was writing about in the post. I wish you could stick to the issues instead of resorting to personal attacks.
beyond: Sorry I kinda hijacked your post. I'll step down from my little soapbox now if you want me to.
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ALIENated said on May 24, 2009....
We need another Operation Wetback, similar what happened during the Truman and Eisenhower years. Illegal immigrants were sent back across the border to make more jobs for returning military men. We need to do the same thing now for similar reasons, and to stop the drain on our systems.
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stopmediabias said on May 28, 2009....
Grape-Do you seriously want America to be a socialism? If you do increase that Lithium drip on the way to Canada, you'll fit right in up there.No homeless in Finland and Denmark? Get real.And do you really want to pay 52% of your income in taxes?Socialist healthcare and entitlement programs enslave people and stunt growth. Nearly every attempt at full or partial socialisms in this country have failed or fallen way short.If Finland and Denmark are so great why are you here?And good God If the government is taking your money in taxes to pay for your healthcare, that is not free healthcare!And you libs always conveniently leave out the hundreds of thousands of people who have died waiting for procedures in bloated socialist healtcare systems like Canada. -
beyondtheveil said on May 28, 2009....
to everyone- I had to leave for a week and take care of some business in hometown which is going to happen much this summer. I was happy to come back to so much reading and ideas expressed by all of you. You are all welcome here and it has been interesting, I must say. -
gingersoul said on May 28, 2009....
BeyBey....please take care. Have a safe trip and come back. You know the road to my door......:-)
Ciao.
{hug} -
GracieLee said on May 30, 2009....
the issues that interest me the most aren't addressed by either party. i wrote about credit card usury and about single payer health care in one of my few blogs. neither party agrees with my position. i don't like left or right wing, or center either, for that matter. i just want what is best for the american people.
neither wing fits the bill. they are all too corrupted. can't think of anyone i like, not obama, not bush, not clinton, not kucinich or nader, not nobody nohow. one thing i really don't like is reading people who are deeply into their wing, left or right, because i disagree so completely with them and i don't like arguing. i can't stand obnoxious people and i hate to argue with anyone. i'd rather just let them talk, and then walk away. -
beyondtheveil said on May 30, 2009....
gracie- The politicians first and only duty is to the people and the country. Sometimes they forget the country is the people. Like a company is the employees and in both cases neither are seen as first duty.
They wrap themselves around 'causes' but causes are only ideas that fit best with their own personal benefit or ingrained belief, right or wrong.
And yes, they are corrupt. Like in life, some are just a little better than others. Sometimes.
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GracieLee said on May 30, 2009....
yes, a company is the employees. i like that. -
ALIENated said on May 31, 2009....
The left has one set of ideas and the right has almost the opposite set of ideas. I am not sure how one disagrees with both sets of ideas. I can only assume you mean you do not completely agree with either side, that you agree some with this side and some with that side. Otherwise, I can only assume you have no opinion on anything. That must be comfortable. I only have a couple of issues that are deal-breakers for me, that make me prefer one party over the other. Of course, I believe the Democrat party is more likely to lead us into slavery to the government and loss of freedom.
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beyondtheveil said on Jun 01, 2009....
alien- You described it pretty well. My wife and I both were republicans most of our lives although we never completely agreed with them - nor of course, completely with demos. We so strongly disliked bush & co. and some of the things they did and where they led the country, we voted demo. along with not liking McCain. I have no idea where we will fall in a next election and I think it will always be that way from now on.
We don't completely agree with Obama either, but maybe he's less dangerous, I don't know.
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ALIENated said on Jun 01, 2009....
I think Borax is a bitter man, not white and not black, so bitter. He seems to hate everything "the white man" has done and has been running around the world appologizing for all those things. I heard he is planning to go to some WWII sites, like Dresden, and will most likely remind the world what assholes white people are (Americans and Brits), and how the attack on Dresden was no better than what happened at the concentration camps (at the hands of yet more white people). Yes, McCain was not all that, but I doubt he would be as much of a dick as Borax is being. He is such an embarrassment to America, he makes George Dubya look like a saint to me (and I was not that high on him either). I figure that OhBummer will begin his attack on Christianity any day now, and start apologizing for all the inhuman things Christians have done to Muslims. God help us. -
GrapeKoolaid said on Jun 02, 2009....
smb: Do you seriously want America to be a socialism? If you do increase that Lithium drip on the way to Canada, you'll fit right in up there.
Right. Because the FedGov having 75% control of GM's not socialist at all. Neither is bailing out the banking industry. What we have now isn't capitalism, it's not socialism. It's just bold faced usury and thievery. This is the system you support? Green pieces of paper with imaginary value is a horrible foundation for a lasting society. Remember that.
No homeless in Finland and Denmark? Get real.
No. Seriously. Denmark's homeless rate is something like 0.5/1000 or something like that.And do you really want to pay 52% of your income in taxes?
Even higher. If people have a sense of collective destiny, why wouldn't they? Without a sense of collective destiny or a sense of history, coupled with this obssession over individualism and individual exceptionalism, is how we've ended up where we are, celebrating wanton excess, malfeasance, corruption and worshipping at the altar of consumption.Socialist healthcare and entitlement programs enslave people and stunt growth.
That's funny. Here I was thinking that providing basic medical treatment for her citizens is a lofty goal for any governing body. Wage slavery for a profit driven corporation is liberating why exactly?
Nearly every attempt at full or partial socialisms in this country have failed or fallen way short.
Yes, it has. Because many Americans fear the word without understanding it. Like a magic spell, or the boogy man, even though parts of our current system already resemble it.If Finland and Denmark are so great why are you here?
This is the second time in this brief comment you've used the "love it or leave it" card on me, the first being your suggestion that I'd fit in well in Canada. I have to remind you once again that an attack on your position is not an attack on your person. You really need to learn proper rhetoric.
I'll give you my joke answer to "love it or leave it" first: I would, except I'm too scared of this country's foreign policy to go anywhere. :)
Now my serious answer: I certainly hope you don't call yourself a patriot thinking that everything's great with the status quo. Even Alienated thinks that there's room for improvement. See, I love this country the way a sane, rational adult loves something. If I see things that are wrong about it, I address it, and try to improve it. Where as you, you're totally sold on the program. I want the US to be #1 on the world happiness index by changing things about the country. You want US to be #1 by rigging the results. If you're sold on the program, you're not a patriot. You're just sheep.And good God If the government is taking your money in taxes to pay for your healthcare, that is not free healthcare!
Right. That's like the same patriotard reasoning that comes along with freedom not being free, right?And you libs always conveniently leave out the hundreds of thousands of people who have died waiting for procedures in bloated socialist healtcare systems like Canada.
Compared to what? As opposed to the hundreds and thousands of people who died waiting for... a kick in the pants in the US? With no chance or hope of ever receiving treatment? That's just stupid.
Just because you can string words together into sentences doesn't mean that it makes sense, or that's the way things are. It's quite irresponsible for you to use words in this way, actually. Please look into that.
Alien: Just as a quick side note, you don't get to call yourself "pro-life" after gunning down a guy in church. Yes, I'm condemning a whole movement over the act of a single individual. Why not? It happens all the time, right? Many in the US have condemned the entirety of Islam over 9/11. I don't see how this is any different.
beyond: See, here's the thing that troubles me. The left at least have an agenda. Even if you disagree with it (which I do), you see them acting on their agenda, electing officials that support their agenda and promoting their cause and what not. But when you take away the hot button issues (being abortion and marriage), what does the right represent? In the last 20 years, I mean. It seems like the post-reagan era republicans don't really stand for anything except money. Democrats represent money too, but at least they do it under the guise of other social causes. The right has really lost focus. The neo-conservatives are international trotskyites in disguise.
The thing is, the average American has a general tendency to lean toward the right, I think. What was once called the "silent majority" (the ones that said no to prop 8 in CA, for example). But the recent antics of "the right" has made many Americans in this demographic disillusioned with not just the republican party, but the whole political process.
It's true that Bush & co. made a mess of things, but I don't think Obama's any more benign than the previous administration. Daily bombings of Pakistan, displacement of over a million people in that region... And Pakistan's supposed to be our ally! Him and his democratic ilk are just as bloodthirsty as the previous regime. Hope and change and yes we can were all just silly sloganeering. It's still business as usual. -
ALIENated said on Jun 02, 2009....
... what does the right represent? The Republicans are usually so busy cleaning up the messes that the Democrats have made (Reagan had a huge mess to fix after Carter, George Dubya had the terrorist mess to fix with a dismantled military) that they barely have time to advance anything. Dubya did almost nothing about abortion or homo marriage except appoint a conservative justice or two. (We will see how they work out.) ... you don't get to call yourself "pro-life" after gunning down a guy in church. Excuse me? I have not, and will not, gun down anyone. What a stupid, stupid statement. I do not condone such behavior because I am pro-life and pro-law and order. I am sure the individual that took the law in his own hands will be swiftly punished and put to death just as Timothy McVey was swiftly put to death. Liberals are quick to punish when one of their own is wronged by someone seemingly representing their opposition. If only they were as aggressive when it came to Muslim terrorists. However, I would no more wish death on Tiller the baby killer than I would wish death on the thousands that died in 9/11. I will say that I mourn and miss the thousands of innocents that were killed in 9/11 and the hundreds (thousands?) killed by Tiller, but I do not and cannot mourn Mr. Tiller. Many in the US have condemned the entirety of Islam over 9/11. I do not condemn any Allah-fearing Muslim that obeys the law and ignores Islam's directive to kill all infidels. Islam is like most misguided religions. The leaders want to kill all pigs because they may be decendents of Jews turned into pigs by Mohammad (is that how that goes?) and the common Muslim just wants to live life in peace and harmony. As a Christian, I simply want all people to discover who God really is and His plan for mankind.
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common_sense said on Oct 23, 2009....
You make these statements in a factual manor and you are using a lot of generalities with conjecture. People want to say, “there are idiots on both sides.” That may be true but so what? Point out who are the idiots and talk about them. Saying we need to do something means nothing. Working-class people don’t have time to do something, other than pay for social programs. Do you think politicians care about protests or popularity lately? Do you think they care about what is best for the country? I would so no…generally speaking. Overall, maybe someone needs to start a list of bad politicians and providing factual data showing what they have done wrong (the hard part will be to find factual data, not purposeful misinformation) Maybe people should have cared about a politician’s past associations before voting on them. Maybe people could write to their congressmen and women and ask why politicians don’t have to go through back ground checks equivalent to anyone else holding a T.S./SCI clearances. I would like to know why the FBI isn’t doing anything to stop politicians for breaking laws. Question, if an enemy state inserts agents to acquire jobs in the US, to get elected into low level political positions, and then continue to work their way up the chain, who would stop them from nonviolently undermining the success of this country? If this were to happen, why would a nonviolent act to destroy this country be considered acceptable by the judicial system? If the FBI leadership has people too afraid of the government to do anything about these politicians, then who is going to stop them? We the people are not organized enough to do anything to stop this type of attack. Heck, many of us are afraid of insulting another person because it is considered politically incorrect. Lawyers are having a great time with civil litigation; it doesn’t have to be based on fact. It is all based on opinion and feelings. The US is in a world of hurt. We have too many people back stabbing and expecting something from nothing. There is no free money, all this unemployment money is not free. Just take a look at your children, and know that they are going to be paying off China for years to come. This isn’t the Republicans fault either. There may be some involved, but it was Barney Frank, Frank Dodd, and ACORN who bare much of the blame. This bologna what CNN and ABC news is doing, the news is supposed to be fact and unbiased and that has not been happening. These news agencies have been littered with opinion and misinformation. FOX has been forced to align themselves with the Republicans because the other agencies have not been showing both side of the story. We are in a world of hurt, I just hope it doesn’t lead to country wide violence…and it could if the judicial system continues to be paralyzed by fear.
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ALIENated said 11 days ago....
The US is in a world of hurt.
You evidently took the red pill to be free of the Matrix ...
http://www.arrod.co.uk/essays/matrix.php
Strangely, the red pill frees you and with the blue pill, ignorance is bliss. Strange how that movie used blue and red pills.
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