• Hegemone said on May 14, 2009....

  Yikes, this is a tough question.  Hypothetically, if it can be proven that she was once older, got her physical age reversed but kept her older mind ... then I wouldn't call that being a pedophile.  However, even if that happened but couldn't be proved, it'd probably still classify as pedophilia.  I know if it were me in that circumstance, it would just be too strange.

• travelr712 said on May 14, 2009....

  well hege, she was an adult while she was in the shuttle, and 2 seconds later she was a child. the analysis of the transporter logs showed that part of her pattern had been missing during the transport, but she knew she was the 20 something woman, and the analysis backed it up. it was an episode based on the question 'if you had it all to do over again', or if you could go back to being a child and still keep all your experiences and memories, what would you do? it had the added twist of 'what if you were married and still with your husband'?

• Hegemone said on May 14, 2009....

  Yeah, I think I remember that one actually.  **looks back and forth**  I'm not a trekkie ... but I've been watching since before I could coherently understand what was going on.  I've been through a lot of 'em.  To be honest, the only Star Trek series I haven't seen various, if not all, episodes in would be the animated series.  I still haven't made up my mind who I liked better between Kirk, Janeway or Picard. As to the issue at hand, in THAT circumstance, as I mentioned, it's possible to prove, so it wouldn't be pedophila.  It's a good question that the episode poses though ... and myself, I don't know if I am even equipped enough to say whether I would do it all over again or not.  It wouldn't really be doing it all over again anyhow, if my brain is altered from what it would have originally been at 12.  But anyway, lol, I'm tired so before I start putting TOO much thought into this (smell the smoke yet?), I'm gonna get outta here!

• travelr712 said on May 14, 2009....

  damn, no wonder people tell me i overthink things. i thought you were just getting started :-)

• queenparanoia said on May 15, 2009....

  i thought this was about star trek???

  i dont know how to answer the question though cuz it's really weird if this happens in real life...

• superbozo said on May 15, 2009....

  I'm not sure ZI would wantr toi root a 12 year ols even id she was the wife

• travelr712 said on May 15, 2009....

  yeah, it would be wierd qpdoll. i've always liked to think about strange hypothetical situations like that. i guess it's because i used to watch the twilight zone when i was a kid :-)
   
  what happened to your typing skills sb? btw, do you ever wake up the next morning and find the mostly full beer you opened and passed out on, and wish there was some way to not waste it?
   
  i'm not sure i would either. it's just interesting to me to think about the perspectives from both sides, and i wondered what other people thought about it.

• Dauntless said on May 15, 2009....

  Why would this even be a question?
  
  To even consider it is sickening in all honesty. It's a television program where, sure, they do get saucy from time to time but as 12 year old children in a scene? I wouldn't think they'd even contemplate such a thing!
  
  There is no answer to this question as it shouldn't really be a question in the first place.
  

• travelr712 said on May 15, 2009....

  i tend to ask questions that no one else will dauntless. i do so because i like to see if the perception i have or i've been told about is how other people think. the episode made no mention of anything even remotely sexual between the two, they only showed a scene of them sitting on the couch and the wife taking her husband's hand, and he immediately stood up and moved a few steps away, and that was pretty much it, other than a short discussion between them about the nature of their relationship in that circumstance, also not of a sexual nature. but it got me thinking about the nature of a relationship in those conditions.
   
  you weren't here for them, but about a year ago, there was a lengthy discussion here about the subject of pedophelia. what i took from it was that most in western europe and america found the idea of a sexual relationship with a person under the age of 18 to be repugnant. however, i also know that well into the 19th century, it was common practice for a girl between the age of 12 and 18 to be married, and still is in some places. in those discussions, i even brought up the fact that mary was reputed to be 13 when she conceived, which means that she had to have had sex with the 'holy spirit' at that age, whatever that sex constituted. but it had to be some form of sex for christ to be fully male and fully human. i've often wondered about the form that sexual act took also, because there is no description of it in the bible. i've heard it speculated that 'the spirit' did some type of genetic manipulation to one of mary's eggs, but that is, as i said, only speculation. there are a number of possibilities as to how this was achieved. but that's way off topic here.
   
  so because of that and other reasons, i disagree that there is no answer to this question, i believe there are very definate answers. and why should it not be a question in the first place? i guess i'm just an inquiring mind that thinks about things most people don't.

• AlteredState said on May 15, 2009....

  No.  It shouldn't be carried through in my opinion.  Would you do it?

• travelr712 said on May 15, 2009....

  well my question wasn't so much whether a person would or would not do it as it was whether in this cirumstance it would be seen as pedophelia. my answer to that question is no, it would not be. however, to answer your question, in that circumstance, i probably wouldn't do it as bodies of immature girls do not excite me.

• bhalah said on May 15, 2009....

  Actually, trav, what i think, more than hipotetical is a perverted question, which coul be wy not hipotetical if the answear is , is not the razon couse isent exitable 12 years inmature girl.
   
   us you said , the picture,  think was well done, if that is an hipotetical situation, but if eny belive in karma, your son or dougther, could had a very clouse relation ship, the live before, but this life is your son or dougther, so becouse is your karma better dont touch, who know what hapen next life as a concecuence  if you touch her... you see the diference, you thot, wow, now they cant have sex, and i think, maybe is a way to said, something abaut karma..

• travelr712 said on May 15, 2009....

  well i'd never thought about it in respect to karma before bhalah. but i think what you're talking about is actually called incest in english. pedophelia is having sex with an underaged child whether they're related or not. in the discussion of pedophelia, it's hard to nail down when it actually happens, because the age that a child becomes an adult is different depending on where you are. some states in america say the legal age of consent is 16, some 18.
   
  in my state, the law IC 35-42-4 states that a person under the age of 21 can have sexual intercourse with a person the age of 14, and a person the age of 16 can have sex with a person of any age, providing they consent, however, the older person could possibly be guilty of contributing to the delinquency of a minor or statutory rape, depending on the circumstances.
   
  some communities of mormons and amish, as i understand it, put the age at 13. jewish tradition places it at 13 also, and has a ritual called the batmizpha, where the boy says at the end 'today i am a man', making them an adult in that culture, and thus by definition, someone having sex with them is not a pedophile. other countries and cultures have various ages of consent and ability to marry. so what may seem like disgusting pedophelia to one person may be perfectly acceptable to another.
   
  but again, my question is not about whether pedophelia is right or wrong as a practice. my quesion is that, since this girl was a married adult just a few hours before, and is in every way except for physical form an adult, would it be considered pedophelia for her to have sex with her legally married husband?

• bhalah said on May 16, 2009....

  O k, now i understand much better, and is also good to know, all what you said abaut ages, i dident have the information  before, but in my case pedhopilia, is a word, or a fact i can not acept, in eny ways, so make feel bad just think in eny ways of posibility, and  i know it could be wrong, give eny or more unswears, couse is samething at the end steel having a place in a conversation, which in my radical side, think dasent even have  to be a tipe of conversation like this, but i know is a fact in the world, and i just feel sorry for them, and is all i can said abaut.

  Because was coming from you, the question, i give and unswear, but it is, samething i dont want  to talk just in case i can said something impulsive. and becouse we dont know what tipe of crazy person coul be on the back of all of this, give me a good reazon, to cotinuos talking abaut a fact not all human can understan, or human like i am at least.

• travelr712 said on May 16, 2009....

  well we don't have to talk about it bhalah, it was just a question that i found interesting, and i wanted to get other people's opinions on it. :-)

• javadewd said on May 16, 2009....

  It would be pedophilia, hence why the Chief is uncomfortable. It would be like having to get married to a child bride, or more like having one of those China dolls. For the next half-dozen years or so, she would be strictly ornamental. No touchy!! I guess since they are legally married, I'm sure the standard first-base standards could apply, but at 12 years old there is simply no sport (unless you're a perv). I assume you picked this question for shock value, but the answer seems quite obvious... If the transporter problem had not eventually been resolved, I'm sure that their marriage would fracture under the weight of the situation.

• travelr712 said on May 16, 2009....

  thank you jd, this is the type of answer i was looking for! shock value? sure i understood some might take offense with what i wrote, i just thought it was an interesting question.
   
  i'd be inclined i think to act like the transporter chief did in this situation. and in doing so, i'd agree, the marriage would be fractured. but what about the woman, who was still the woman in every way but physical? doesn't she have the human right, being legally married, to have the comfort of her husbands bed?

• javadewd said on May 16, 2009....

  At 12 years old, Trav, you're talking under-development -- low hormones, small breasts, perhaps maybe even no menstrual cycle. We'll assume that in the 25th century that HPV wasn't a problem, but still... It would be physically painful if not physically and emotionally traumatizing for all involved. That's what gripes me about pervs that are into that kind of crap. I would also have doubts that there would be enough of a drive from the [now 12 year old] wife's side to pursue such a comfort. Sure, in that episode she seeks emotional support, but I thought the whole idea of the Chief's wife going to bed with him wearing anything short of full-body princess pajamas was just damn creepy!
  

• travelr712 said on May 16, 2009....

  lol jd! but that brings up another good point. her emotional state seemed to be that of a 20 something woman too, so wouldn't she maintain the same drives and emotions? i mean, if she had 12 year old drives and emotions, she wouldn't have been upset that her husband turned her down.

• javadewd said on May 16, 2009....

  She may have been mentally 20 years old, even emotionally 20 years old (mature?), but hormones, pheromones and other physiological factors still say nay. I disagree, as a 12 year old you can still reel from rejection, which was what should have been prominent in that situation. If 12 year olds are coming onto grown men, they shouldn't be seeking physical pleasure... If that were anywhere true in modern society, I guess 12 will get you 20... Years in a pound-you-in-the-ass prison!
  

• speaking_up said on May 16, 2009....

  It's lucky we already determined you were weird, trav...cause if I had come into this without knowing you, I would have blasted the crap out of you for bringing up such a sick topic.
   
  But that's my baggage, and you know it about me : )
   
  Anywho...let's look at this from a sexually abused 12 year old girls point of view...
   
  My stepfather is not a pedophile, of the common type.  As was described to me by a counselor, years ago, he did not see me as a child.  But, as I developed some boobs (albeit, at that age, still very small boobs), he began to see me as a woman.  His mind.  His imagination.  His drunken state.
   
  Something was wrong with his thinking...and it was almost like a psychopathic reaction to my aging into puberty.  He did not care about my feelings or whether or not I would find his advances inviting (that is the psychopath and narcissist mind...no empathy to others).
   
  On my side of things, the whole creepy idea of this 30 some year old man coming toward me for that purpose (I'll spare you the details)...was horrifying.  My body was not ready, my mind less so...it fractured me to the core, emotionally.
   
  I really don't give a rat's ass what the husband thinks is appropriate or not for his new 12 year old girl, the only way this could be okay in any way, is if SHE wanted sex with the mind she had as a 12 year old.  No manipulation, no games, no candy, no threats...she just wants it because her mind is that of an adult.
   
  If the story (which I missed, thankfully), was only centered around the husbands viewpoint...it concerns me.  I would be really concerned about is the writer of that star trek episode.  A one-sided viewpoint reminds me of my stepfather.
   
  Trav, if the show expressed that the woman (girl) was not a child, and game for sex...I would say she (and he) should go for it.  
   
  Sex is not about the body, it is about the mental states and desires (no pun intended), in my humble opinion. 

• speaking_up said on May 16, 2009....

  ...of both parties...

• javadewd said on May 16, 2009....

  Actually, Speaking, the episode was crystal clear that the Chief (Colm Meaney) was more weirded out than his wife (Rosalind Chao) about the situation. I think Trav may had just misinterpreted Keiko's need for emotional comfort from her husband (that everything was going to be alright, not abnormal). Her character got all upset when she realized that her husband could not relate to her 12 year old body, and rightly so IMHO.
  

• travelr712 said on May 16, 2009....

  well there's rejection a 12 year old can understand, then there's the rejection a wife of 20 something would feel jd. i don't necessarily agree that in this situation, the chemical responses you listed wouldn't be there, and wouldn't react like they do in an adult woman.
   
  the episode never got to the point of really talking about the sexual aspect speaking. one reason i thought about it was because there was an ongoing debate here last year on pedophelia. and what you've said about her emotional state, that's one thing i was getting at. she still had the emotions of an adult woman. this was also somewhat a question of legality and culture. if you scroll up a bit, you'll see where i layed out some legal and cultural definitions of pedophelia. so it's also a question of, if a person legally consents to marriage, then they must be aware of all that marriage intails, which she was when she married him. so if they are legally married, can it be legally considered pedophelia? sorry if this struck a nerve with you, i actually wrote it before i knew about your situation.

• javadewd said on May 16, 2009....

  Sorry, PMS and such are chemically reactive, not emotionally reactive. The mind of a 20 year old in a pre-pubescent body wouldn't have the same drive... No libido. Even my sci-fi geek wife agrees that Keiko was only seeking acceptance from her husband, not "the dick."

• travelr712 said on May 16, 2009....

  ahh, hadda 'phone a friend' huh? :-P allot of who we are and how we react has to do with our memories and experiences. she would have that emotional makeup still, the sensory memories. would that have any effect do you think?

• speaking_up said on May 16, 2009....

  Trav...first, don't ever not write what you want to write because someone might have a nerve hit...my God...do you know how many people would be affected by my comments and postings???  (smiles).
   
  It's kind of an interesting topic...and I must learn to not be so sensitive...my experiences do not always mean I am right.  I was raised weird, remember?
   
  But, your last statement...would that have any effect...effect on what?  Her wanting sex, or the legalities...???
   
  I think I can answer about her wanting or not wanting sex with the body of a 12 year old, but the mind of an adult...she would want it.  It's in the mind.  She may not be able to reach orgasm, but she would enjoy the love and comfort of her husband. 
   
  adding to that...
   
  java...actually, you reminded me of something very interesting, and I'm not too sure why this memory popped up...but when I was 3 years old, I was caught masterbating on a fence by my mother.  I remember it now like it was yesterday, I remember her fierce anger toward me...the shame, humiliation (we were at a friend of her's house, I think).  I remember masterbating at 3 years old!!!
   
  Now, how does this happen without a libido?
   
  This topic, to me, is getting out of control...but, if there are any answers in here...bring it on!  I'd kinda like to know how that was possible if girls do not have libidos before puberty.

• javadewd said on May 17, 2009....

  Hell, if you want to go that direction (out of control...) I remember playing doctor with a girl when we were five, but I don't think that would have lead to a 20 or 30 year old dick getting rammed into her pre-pubescent fun hole. If you're trying to say that children having sex is okay, but children and adults (regardless of sci-fi advanced mental state) is not, then I'd say you need to subscribe to the theories of Larry Flynn and how incest and sex with children is normal and should be legal.
  

• travelr712 said on May 17, 2009....

  if you scroll up a bit jd, you'll see where i listed several examples of where the age of consent / adulthood varies by culture. i've personally known women who began to have sex at the age of 12 or 13 (not incestually) who said they enjoyed the experience after the first time and did it often. in the star trek scenario, they made no mention of the legal age of consent, but let's set it for the sake of argument and because it's a hypothetical scenario, at 18. since the girl is now physically 12, would their marriage be legally disolved?

• javadewd said on May 17, 2009....

  One word -- HPV -- two words -- Cervical Cancer -- had an old girlfriend die of it. Main cause : pre-pubescent sex. Me? Not involved with that...
  
  Legally, no. The marriage would not be dissolved. Morally, and I believe it was portrayed well by the Chief's character, the marriage would not be able to simply resume at the same level that it was due to her abrupt change in physical age. Keiko was a mother, too, but it would not dissolve her motherhood, either. There is a responsibility that men have not to take advantage of women (especially under-aged women) and in an advanced space-faring civilization like that, you would think that there were traditional, social, moral, ethical, physiological, mental and judicial standards that would point to the idea of any man diddling a 12 year old girl/woman would simply be wrong if not simply creepy.
  
  I guess I just don't know where you're hoping that this will all go. We are all being kind to assume you're not thinking of diddling an under-aged girl! I don't know how many times/ways I can keep saying the same thing... Although I did hear that our US Congress just passed a "Hate Crimes" bill that gives protection for pedophiles!
  

• travelr712 said on May 17, 2009....

  um, no, i'm not thinking about 'diddling an underage girl'. i do find it somewhat comical how some people react to questions of human sexuality though. but i agree with you, this question has pretty much played out unless someone else comes here and brings up another viewpoint.

• speaking_up said on May 17, 2009....

  @trav...yea, I'm kinda done with the topic myself...
   
  @java...the reason why congress may be passing a hate crimes bill that gives protection for pedophiles is because since the age of the internet, pedophilia has finally reared it's ugly head up front and in public.  Previously, little girls and boys were considered to be fantizising, imagining, or outright lying about the adults who were messing with them.  Getting a conviction was nearly impossible because the word of a little girl or boy was just not good enough.
   
  Now that we can see the videos, the child pornography, etc. flashing around the internet like an epidemic...and newsmagazines such as dateline are catching these perverts in action on film in record numbers (catching them is the record numbers, not the act...it's been going on since the beginning of  time).
   
  Anyway, the knee jerk reaction has been fathers or mothers or other significant others being so outraged by learning that their own child was put through such a horrible ordeal...they are going out and killing/maiming pedofiles in equally record numbers.
   
  We can't have this.
   
  There is a justice system in place, and vigilance service is not the answer for a civilized society.  Even serial killers, even the worst of the worst of us, deserve equality under the law, or we are doomed.
   
  I am not a violent person.  However, if I learned that anyone messed with my son or my granddaughter, my first reaction would be to kill or harm that person.  It is a normal feeling of protection we parents have.  So there must be a law to protect the pedofiles, I am afraid.
   
  And, the law will protect the family members of the abused, as well.  People need to think twice before taking the law into their own hands.

• speaking_up said on May 17, 2009....

  java...you made such a good point, bringing up the hate-crime bill to protect pedofiles...I create a post with the above response...hope you don't mind!

• travelr712 said on May 17, 2009....

  speaking and jd, i have switched to posting my comment to these subjects to this post, because it deals with the subject that has been brought up, and not the one i wrote about here.

• javadewd said on May 17, 2009....

  I'll have to check out your new post when I get the chance. The wife just returned with the fattest assed burger I have ever seen, so it's time for lunch...

• travelr712 said on May 17, 2009....

  what could be better than a fat assed burger lunch that you wife brought to ya? :-D

• javadewd said on May 17, 2009....

  Boobs in the face, but I'm hungry...

• travelr712 said on May 17, 2009....

  priorities and all that :)

• speaking_up said on May 17, 2009....

  java...okay, so is it my viewpoint on acceptance of a law to protect pedofiles the reason you won't comment...come on!  I'm not afraid of a different point of view...
   
  I've been waiting for you over on my post...*smiles*

• javadewd said on May 22, 2009....

  Yes, to trap me into a discussion that you say I fueled over ten comments ago. Thanks. I appreciate you putting me on a pedestal just to knock me off of it when I didn't want it in the first place. How does that go again?
  
  I heard a great comment concerning the remake of the "V" sci-fi series for ABC. The critic said that "the combined government of humans and aliens could portray either the Bush Administration or the Obama Administration, depending on your political affiliation," and also said, "it proves the point that nobody should follow any sort of leadership blindly. Humans are flawed and the aliens on V want to enslave and eat you."
  
  Seems like sage advice to me, but what do I know...
  

• speaking_up said on May 22, 2009....

  Pedestal?

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