• Zayda said on Apr 26, 2009....

  /sigh
  Kyle: This is a tough one for me. I tend to try to look for the best in people at least the first time. And then when I become emotionally invested in that person, I tend to look for the best in them again and again.
  
  
  But there are some people that just give off a "vibe". You can see it in their words or the things they try to hide behind their nice words.
  
  
  So, to answer your question, honestly, it really depends on the person whether I try to look for the best in them and do that over and over or not.
  
  
  Heck, I'm not even sure what I just said makes any sense.
  
  
  I'm not sure if you will ever understand what happened. But if this person used all the weaknesses they learned about you against you, maybe that was his intent all along. Some people are just manipulators and users and are very good at hiding that until they no longer want to hide it or they get what they want.

• gingersoul said on Apr 26, 2009....

  Kyle...i read twice your post for fear of missing the important pieces of its puzzle.
  
  You seem to shift radically from giving yourself all the blame to giving it all to them.
  As usual, the truth is well to stay in the middle.
  
  Its true that you used them as well as they used you. You needed them to balance out your relationship with Natalie and they used you for their own reasons.
  But this "use" is not a bad thing..its what friendships are made of...."using" people to help ourselves and in the process help them too.
  
  So its not a negative thing. But then you said that something shifted and they changed. They were making you feel like the black sheep, they undermined your self esteem and you felt like they deserved to be that mean and tactless with you. Because you were not worth of anything better than that.
  Wrong: nobody can do this to anybody else. And if they were doing it wasn't because you were worthless. It was simply because you allowed them to do. Because you knew something was indeed true deep inside.
  So, again, it takes two to tango. But the process of healing from those worthless feelings is only yours to make. Not theirs to manipulate. 
  
  You said:
  "Taking the words and actions of one person, and assuming they were somehow the authority on me and my life, and applying it to everyone else I knew. And that's just plain stupid. I see that now. And it ends now. I will no longer allow one stupid person to dictate how I see myself, or how much I trust other people".
  
  See, you know now where all of this came from....absence of self esteem on your part and manipulative use of their power over you on their part.
  I think many abusive and damaged relationship need two parts to work. In their wicked sense of working, i mean.
  You allowed them to treat you in that way because they were feeding your necessity of believing you were a bad person.
  Do ut des.
  It works even in this dysfunctional manners.
  
  Its good that you see it now. Its a painful process. Some people do know how to twist the weak cords of our heart so bad that we bleed and they don't care.
  
  I have been lucky up to now to cut short with this kind of people. I have met some good example of them in my life. But i am usually able to recognize these sick traits in people. And I have been manipulative too, i admit it. So i know the game.
  
  I am sure you will never let anybody treat you in that way because you are changed and stronger. This post is the proof......even if might not look that to you. {hugs}
  

• crybabylu said on Apr 26, 2009....

  You have to do what is right for you.  Some people I have given more chances to than others.  It depends on the person.  If a person is sincere and wants to change, then I am quick to forgive.  If they aren't but just wants to keep abusing me, then I have to say no.

• HollyGoLightly said on Apr 26, 2009....

  *kyle* ( no, wait...love calling you by your *evil* name...  ;)
   
  *evil*~~  i have a saying that i have come to in conclusion of many, many people over the years treating me poorly...and that is~ people mistake my kindness for weakness...  still do once in a while...i'm sorry someone has mistaken your kindness...people with good hearts don't always get the acknowlegement, or even treated with the most basic decency...that they deserve...
  
  (((hugs)))
   
  *~*Holly*~*

• evil_twin said on Apr 26, 2009....

  Zayda--I do think that sometimes people are just manipulators and when a person is no longer really useful to them for what they want, their true colors shine through. I've just always tried to give everyone the benefit of the doubt because I kept on believing that everyone was basically good at heart, and maybe just needed more support or something. I guess it's true that it depends on the person. Some people are worth giving chances to, and some people it becomes evident after awhile, are not the worth the effort...
  
  ginger--I think I see what you're saying...I do realize that it's my fault I gave this person the power to hurt me. I kept letting them do it. I take the blame for that, which was the whole purpose for this post. But I don't think I have a desire for someone to feed my insecurities and convince me I'm bad. Quite the opposite. I want someone to boost me up since I do a good enough job on my own tearing myself to pieces. And I guess I just don't understand how someone who could claim to care about you, could take that flaw and that weakness, and feed into it purposely.
  
  Yes, I shouldn't have allowed it to happen, but I still feel they are at fault because they're the ones who treated me as less than human and used all my weaknesses against me. I don't claim to be totally blameless though. I fully admit that I'm difficult sometimes, and that my downfall is letting people walk on me, all in the name of loyalty. But even at my worst, I never use people's weaknesses against them or try to hurt them purposely. So I won't take the blame for the disaster this friendship ended up as because I didn't do anything except be stupidly trusting of the wrong person. So yes, I did learn my lesson painfully. It's just a balancing act to know who to trust and how much, because right now, I'm having difficulty with that concept...
  
  cry--I think you're right that if a person really wants to change it's worth the effort of giving them a chance. But if they don't want to change, and it's really just that you wish they would change, then I think it really is time to let them go. You can't make someone change if they don't want to. And I'm learning that.
  
  holly--Yeah, I do think a lot of people mistake kindess for weakness. I want to do my best for everyone, but there are some people who just don't deserve my kindness. They only take advantage of it......
  

• Lucytorial said on Apr 26, 2009....

  Kyle, hard to respond to this one, like Z said, it depends on the person but in essence if someone fucks with me on that level, I give them an opportunity to explain themselves, if they can't do that I walk, I walk calmly and slowly away never to return.  Not my problem theirs.... its kind of harsh but I only give one chance... even though I look for the best in people... friendships are sensative things and if you fuck with that balance then well you deserve the consequences.

• gingersoul said on Apr 26, 2009....

  Kyle.......not only you are learning the lesson, but you are learning at a very deep level. And with the time you will arrive to strike a balance between trusting again and not trusting anymore. It's what we all have to do after all...if we don't open ourselves to others what's the alternative?
  
  And if the price to pay is being misunderstood...well..at least you can say you have been generous and bold enough to try to understand..
  
  Reality is....there are a lot of people out there who is just plain stupid and don't have a clue. Sorry you bumped in some of them.
  

• Mr_Box said on Apr 26, 2009....

  I'll echo what others have said in that it really does depend on the person. Everyone makes mistakes and gets mad and says things they don't mean that end up hurting someone else. It's just human nature and we're all guilty of it. The trick is whether or not you actually believe they're sorry. Or if they really make an effort to change their behavior. 
  
  
  There's a big difference between arguing with someone and some hurtful words slip out, to someone who consistently tears you down and tries to hurt you on purpose just because they know they can. 
  
  
  So yes, I would give someone the benefit the doubt if I knew they were genuine and sorry for what they had done, and it wasn't something that happened all the time. But if there's a pattern there, and you find them repeatedly doing the same hurtful things over and over, that's when I walk away. They don't deserve any more chances. 
  
  
  The minute someone becomes more harmful to me in my life than helpful, that's when I take off. Because no one has the right to treat me like shit, and I just won't let them do it. I won't give them that power over me.
  
  
  I've been accused before of not giving people enough chances or writing people off too quickly just cuz I don't like their vibe. But I stand by my choices because I'm usually never wrong. I don't want to waste my energy on people who don't appreciate it or deserve it, because I have plenty of other people who do.
  
  
  I think I'm much more cynical and mistrusting than you are though. You go thru life with the outlook of 'innocent until proven guilty' and I'm much more like 'guilty until proven innocent'. I trust no one unless they give me a reason to do so. So I think I'm more of the extreme opposite that you are. And I don't know which one of us is right, because it probably lies somewhere in the middle.
  
  
  All I know is that I think you've made the right choice here to finally stop giving chances to this person because believe me, if they were gonna change, they would have done it by now. And no one can say you didn't try your ass off to fix things. Sometimes it's just better to walk away and save yourself.

• ampbox said on Apr 26, 2009....

  i know some people like that. the mean ones.
  don't ever let them control or manipulate u.
  if they don't like u then leave 'em. they're not worth it!
  that's what i did. it felt great! was relieved and happy :)
  so should you. good that u realized ur worth.
  
  

• chickencat said on Apr 26, 2009....

  Evil,
        I know exactly what you are saying. I haven't read the other comments out of fear it may change my mind writing this. I have been there. The point where one person you truly care about tears you down. I know how hard it is to look at the brightness of YOU, trust me, It's there. The light is not gone...it's just dim. I have gotten stronger over time. I too, am a people pleaser. I too, do not like confrontation. I will do everything I can to avoid an argument. To answer your question, Yes. I do give people way too many chances. There are people I disdain inwardly, but smile and put on a show because I don't want to hurt their feeling..okay that sentence there made absolutely no sense, but I'm not going to correct it. I'm sorry this happened to you. Hopefully you can put this person behind you and grow strong. For me, I haven't put the person behind me, just the behavior ( or at least some of it).

• evil_twin said on Apr 26, 2009....

  Lucy--I think that I need to be a little bit more like you. I'll probably never be the type of person who only gives someone one chance, but I could certainly stand to stop giving them a million chances, when each and every time, the same thing happens. I think you're right that if someone keeps fucking with you, they deserve the consequences and I shouldn't feel bad about that.
  
  ginger--I've always been an incredibly open and trusting person. I mistakenly believed that everyone was really good at their core and all they needed was someone to believe in them. But I'm tired of being that person only to get burned in the end. I know I can't stop trusting everyone and shut myself off from the world. But at this point, I already have some people I know I can trust, and it'll be a long damn time before anyone new gets past these gates.
  
  Jack--You're a lot more like how Lucy said she was. I know you're always fair with me and with certain other people, and you never turn your back on those that really matter. But you are very quick to discard other people if they do something really wrong. But I don't know that it's a bad thing, because like you said, you're usually always right with your choices. So I guess maybe I should strive to be a little more like that. I read people well too, its just sometimes if see something I don't like, I think I can help them and change it. But that's not really realistic. I know I made the right choice this time. But remind me of that later, will ya? Cause I'm bound to forget...
  
  ampbox--You know, I do feel relieved and happier after deciding to get this person out of my life for good. I thought I'd feel more sad or regretful, but I'm truly seeing that I did everything I could, 50 times over, and it still didn't help anything. So it's definitely time to walk away.
  
  chickencat-- I think that people like us who hate confrontation, are a lot easier to manipulate. It sucks. I'm trying to learn how to stand up for myself better, and I hope that you can too. I tried keeping the person and fixing the behavior, but it didn't work for me. But maybe for you it can?
  
  
  

• chickencat said on Apr 26, 2009....

  Evil, 
         One day I turned the tables on him..I forget what we were talking about but he come into the room and calls me an idiot. I felt he wanted to start an argument so I just sat there for a second and then said " I am sooo glad you found that out. I was getting tired of putting up a front. Next time you want to talk down to me just to make yourself seem bigger..think about it" LOL. He looked at me as if I was crazy, sighed and walked out of the room.  He created what I am today and at times he hates it. LOL.
   

• the_infernal_optimist said on Apr 26, 2009....

  You know my answer to your question...at least the one at the end. I don't have any answers for you about what would make a person just change like that, other than that the friendship at that point had outlasted any use they had for you, as ugly as that is to think about.
  
  And I think anyone who *actually* knew the situation and wasn't just assuming they understood, would not assign blame to you for any of this or defend that other person. It's not your fault it happened; abuse occurs when an open-hearted person crosses paths with a manipulative, twisted soul who sees them as someone who can be used without consequence. Nobody should be like that, so monstrous as to deliberately jerk around another person and beat them down with the power of words sharpened to daggers and poisoned to sink deep, beyond the initial wound. There is no justification for that.
  
  I mean, if you saw someone with a smaller frame than you, walking down the sidewalk with something that you wish you had and there was nobody around to observe, you *could* attack them and swipe the thing they were carrying. But most people wouldn't DO something that appalling. And would that make it the victim's fault, for happening to be in the wrong place at the wrong time with a morally bankrupt person around? I don't think so.
  
  I agree with Jaxl that the real truth of how many chances people deserve (and the true nature of people in general) is probably somewhere between the two extremes, even if I don't live that way either. And I think that with the situation you've been dealing with, the only thing -- and the best thing! -- you can salvage here is yourself. I'm glad you're going to. And you're never alone.
  
  ~Infernal
  

• RollingC said on Apr 26, 2009....

  Kyle,
  Need to re-read to give a meaningful reply and I'm at work now so I'll return but remember this, people that can forgive (which is a way of letting go) are much better off emotionally (even if sometimes it doesn't feel that way) than people that cannot or will not forgive. 
  By the same token it's my opinion that people that are willing to please are much better off in life than people that need, want or make others try to please them.
  Think about it.
  Rc

• paper~InEurope said on Apr 27, 2009....

  
  <3
  
  paper ~
  
  
  

• fearing said on Apr 27, 2009....

  E_T, It's been my experience that people who treat others this way, really feel that way about themselves.  They put others down to feel better.  A confident person doesn't have a problem building someone else up.  I'd bet your relationship with this guy changed about the time he started feeling like he was less than you or became jealous of you and your life.  Just my opinion.
  
  Dude, you gotta start giving yourself more credit.  I'm not talking about becoming an ego-maniac (smile) but inside - be okay with who you are.  And one more thing,  love/friendship isn't conditional if it is real.  I'm not talking just about the ex-friend.  I mean everyone in your life that this applies to.  Friendship and love are never 50/50.  Sometimes you are the one who is the strong shoulder and sometimes you get to lean on the other person. 
  
  Hugs!  And how long before that baby gets here?
  
  
  

• GrapeKoolaid said on Apr 27, 2009....

  Hey there...
  
  It's not easy being a thinking person, is it?  There are so few of you left...  Thinking people do have a tendency to over-analyze things and that combined with doubt (especially of self) can be a crippling thing. 
  
  As to your question, yes.  I tend to give people many chances, over and over.  Until it gets to be a certain point.  Once they cross that line, I burn that bridge, never to see them again.  I try to remember my mantra then.  It goes something like this. 
  
  "F*** you, I've got enough friends". 
  
  You did say how easy it was for you to make friends after all.  :)
  
  Hope this helps. 
  

• dyingman said on Apr 27, 2009....

  I never write anyone off.
  I merely trust them with less and less and expect less and less from them.
  
  Once they surpass my expectations, I initiate an opportunity to surprise me again or screw me over for the minor prize I offer.
  
  I'm seldom hurt more than I can afford to be.
  
  
  Sorry to hear about this.
  In situations where someone thinks me a pain in the neck  (not often because I'm something of a recluse.  They never get the chance to be sick of me.  I get sick of the world first.) I open other relationships more and let that one cool down.  It either dies a natural death (most relationships MUST if you are to have room for new wonderful people) or stabilizes because there's little enough of me to be pleasant.
  
  Some friends were so glad to find someone who treated them well, their reflex was to smother their new friend.  I scheduled them firmly which forced them to diversify before they drove me nuts.  I was more of a life preserver bobbing in the ocean than bedrock to them.  Social skill must be based on pleasing more than just a trusted friend or two.  Society is less tolerant than the most strained friendship.
  
  
  

• Twylarants said on Apr 27, 2009....

  Wow, you got a lot of good answers here. I agree with almost everyone.  What Fearing said is so true, some people put others down in an attempt to feel better about themselves.  We even tell our kids this when they come home crying because someone picked on them.  You'll see...you'll do it with your little guy if it happens to him.  The only problem is we don't remember that when we grow up, we automatically think it must be us, I'm the one who's wrong here.
  
  I'm like Grape and D'Man.  First of all, I never get that close to anyone outside of my family and a few very close friends.  And with all others I'm as nice as anyone can be until they cross the line.... and I draw the line.  I'll confront anyone because it's really not important to me at all.
  
  By drawing the line yourself you're giving yourself the power not to be hurt.  If you distance yourself the minute a person crosses the line, and it can be through confrontation (which isn't as hard to do as you might think) or with merely a look, you're letting that person know they have no power over you.
  
  I know...it's easy to say all this, more difficult to do if you're not wired that way, but just like anything else in life, practice makes perfect.
  

• CreativeWoman said on Apr 27, 2009....

  Kyle,
  I understand your thought process completely about this friend.  I seem to willingly accept the blame for relationship issues in my life.  I often feel that I'm not good enough and deserve the situation.
  
  I sense that you feel that way too. 
  
  You are a good person.  Never forget that. 
  
  If your friend has gone through rough times, the way he/she has reacted to them can change their whole outlook on life.  They may be looking to blame anyone but themselves....unlike me...and probably you.
  
  Give the person some space.  Sometimes we can't fix someone who doesn't want to be fixed.
  
  (Sounds like I should take some of my own advice.  I know it is hard when you are living in the moment.)
  
  Hang in there.
  
  CW
  

• Hegemone said on Apr 27, 2009....

  Whew, I've been trying to read this for a while now, lol, admittedly I just now finally had the time to sit down and go through it all.  To answer your question, do I give people enough chances, too many, too few?  It depends on the person and how close I am to them.  The closer I already am, the more chances they get, the less I know them, the less chances.  In relation to that, let's say there's a friend (aka F2) of a friend (F1).  I'll give F2 more chances if I'm close enough to F1, which in time, could bump F2 up to an F1 as well.  If there is no link anywhere, you haven't got a lot of opportunity with me.  Now, on to what I was wanting to say ... I think the person that put you through all of that is horrible, upset and having many of their own issues.  I must also say this, please don't feel that you didn't help them at all.  Maybe that's the purpose you were serving.  Something fundamental in their life changed, it changed their attitude, and they needed to be ugly to somebody ... and they had a bond with you, so they chose you to do it to because they knew you wouldn't just tell them to piss off.  I'm not saying that that was right, but it just looks like that's what happened.  Something like that going on for a short amount of time would be understandable, and in time, forgiveable.  This scenario with you sounds like it lasted much longer, which means that person would have lost total sight of the fact that you were a friend, so you've done the right thing by moving on and trying to learn from it.  Don't let any one person try to tell you what the world thinks of you, because, after all, if they're going to do that, the world probably doesn't think much of them anyway, so why should you take to heart what they say?  Hopefully that made sense.  Anyways, off to do some work or something now, lol.

• fragglesrock said on Apr 27, 2009....

  i think everyone has really left you some really remarkable, thoughtful, intelligent responses.  i think i tend to give people more chances than they deserve i guess it's just because i would hope that if i screwed up that my friends would give me another chance.  but there is a line that we all have to draw for ourselves, what we will and won't allow. i'm just sorry that someone would treat you so poorly :(

• barbeee said on Apr 27, 2009....

     I think it must have changed when that person realized that they could get by with treating you like shit.
     Maybe when they where going through their shit and they refused your offers of help and told you to fuck off-and  you being a good friend-did, well maybe baby, they are more of a head case then you thought you were, and they started to resent you because you did fuck off, (when they probably didn't truly mean it) and as their resentment built up over that, they began treating you badly-and then they figured out that you put up with the abuse and that's when they started thinking of you as dumb and wimpy and so,they began to loose respect for you over that and the abuse got worse. I hope you understood all that. The bottom line is you can be as big of a people pleaser as you want- just make sure the people you please are also pleasing you and if they're not then kick their ass to the curb.
    The title of this post 'I'm way too forgiving of people'- well I'm the exact opposite, and have a very unforgiving nature, though I'm a loyal and true friend as long as you don't fuck me over and when you do then I'm done... my heart is closed and your not in it. This unforgiving thing about me has been very often been considered a character flaw, but I just consider it 'self preservation'
  Hurt me once 'shame one you' hurt me twice 'shame on me'
    I'm very glad that you have realized how bad for yourself this person is, so, that is  a step in the right direction... and I'm sorry that you were hurt in the first place. I hope you learn from this experience and remember 'whatever don't kill ya makes ya stronger' (((hugs)))

• starchini said on Apr 27, 2009....

  *hugs*...People change, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse. 

   

• evil_twin said on Apr 27, 2009....

  chickencat--I guess if you can find ways to turn those tables and it works for you, then I'm glad it does. I think in my case, it's better to just say goodbye.
  
  Infernal--I think the sad truth is that not only did I outlast any use they had for me, I had no more use for them. And it was only because the good things we shared at one time were just totally gone. I obviously brought nothing good to their life anymore, and they definitely didn't bring me anything good. It's just sad realizing that because I'll never quite understand what happened. Although I am close to figuring that part out now. The only blame I take is sticking around too long. I should have walked away sooner. But I don't think it's my fault they treated me this way. I don't even think they saw what they were really doing because they just didn't care enough to notice half the time. But thanks for your support. I know I'll probably never be able to write people off as quickly as Jack does, but I'd like to be a little more like that...
  
  Rc--I will do my best to forgive this person, yet it will have to be a silent forgiveness we are no longer speaking to each other. And I agree too that I'd rather be a person who tries to please others, rather than expect them to please me. All I want is to be treated as well as I treat others.
  
  paper-- :-)
  
  fearing--You know, I think you hit on something really important. Because the problems all started when bad things happened to them, and good things happened to me. They even said a few times that they didn't understand why I deserved to be happy and they didn't. I think they held a lot of resentment towards me that was fueled by things I had no control over. So I think you're right about what started the changes, which doesn't make them a very big person that they couldn't be happy for me, despite the things that went wrong for them. Also, I'm trying real hard to give myself more credit. Its a long hard road and having this person around for so long set me back a lot when I had made progress in the past. Btw, the baby is due in June! My b-day, the 24th :-)
  
  Grape--I am a thinking person and sometimes I wish I wasn't. I wish I could just skate through life and never ponder or analyze or internalize every little thing. Sometimes it's helpful, but lots of times it just makes me more miserable. But I think your mantra is a good one. And it's one I'm trying to stick to now. I do have other friends, and they treat me better, so why was I holding onto this person?
  
  dyingman--I haven't written off very many people in my life. Usually I do just let them fade away and I stop sharing with them,and the nature of the friendship just changes. But with this person, it just didn't really work out like that because it was just too volatile. But I think now that it's over, I will be able to focus on other friendships more.
  
  twyla--I do have to agree that I think jealousy played a part in this. I think they were resentful of me for having things they wanted, and yet I was still depressed a lot. Which really has nothing to do with what I have and don't have in my life. Depression is an illness, but I think they lost their patience for me because all they could see was that I had more than they did, so I should just shut up and stop complaining. It's much more complex than that though. You are a lot like my brother in how you deal with people, and who you let in and who you don't. I strive to be more like that because I'm tired of getting hurt.
  
  CW--I know you can relate to this. It's so easy to blame yourself. You just assume it's your fault for feeling the way you do because you didn't do anything to change the situation. But it's not so easy to do that sometimes. I do agree that this person changed because of things in their life changing, and I was an easy target to take their anger out on.
  
  Hegemone--I do think you're right that things changed in their life and they needed someone to take their anger out on. And at first I did just let it slide because I felt like the situation would improve and they'd realize I wasn't the bad guy and that I was on their side. But after so long of the same thing and it always getting worse, that's when I really should have just walked away. I don't know why I let one person's words affect me so much, except it's just the way I am. I'm trying to change it.
  
  fraggles--Thank you. I agree that I give people chances because I hope that they'll give me chances too. We all screw up and we're all hard to handle sometimes, and I just tried to be super patient and forgiving, because I want that too. But there are lines you have to draw and unfortunately I kept drawing those lines and erasing them and moving them further away, when I should have just drawn it, and walked away when they crossed over it.
  
  barbeee--I know that the fact I let them get away with treating me shitty for so long fueled them along. If I had stood up for myself sooner and stopped caving in and letting them convince me I was always wrong, they wouldn't have been able to treat me that way. I think that sometimes it's much better to be less forgiving, at least in certain circumstances. You come out feeling better about yourself, at least.
  
  starchini--Yes, they do change. And I guess I just need to accept that this person changed for the worse.

• abbette said 11 days ago....

  I got sop pissed at my mom and sister just now for being so disgusting with their betrayal and because I love them I just give up on hating them and let them back into my life with out letting them know what they did was seriously wrong by ignoring. This hays caused me to have seriously abusive and fucked up relationships with men where I am 23 and still haven't had a real boyfriend and I would say i'm very desirable in every way...except for when it comes to seeing through people's manipulative behavior and then as a weakling for it. I HATE them right now and I feel like maybe I need al-anon for an issue like this.

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