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War Crimes beyond a reasonable doubt

bloc posted on Apr 16, 2009 | views: 1053 | Tags: politics, torture, bush, life, Humanity, criminals, psychopaths, war crimes
Today was a huge news day on the issue of torture. The Obama Administration released Bush administrations memo's that make it clear beyond any reasonable doubt that they  ordered torture. Here is one sample that highlights the reasons they did interrogations outside of the US, because they felt it was legal to torture outside the country.

"By its terms, Article 16 [of the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment of Punishment] is limited to conduct within "territory under [United States] jurisdiction. We conclude that territory under United States jurisdiction includes, at most, areas over which the United States exercises at least de facto authority as the government. Based on CIA assurances, we understand that the interrogations do not take place in any such areas."

Here is a section from the memo that authorized waterboarding.

"As we explained in the Section 2340A Memorandum, "pain and suffering" as used in Section 2340 is best understood as a single concept, not distinct concepts of "pain" as distinguished from "suffering"... The waterboard, which inflicts no pain or actual harm whatsoever, does not, in our view inflict "severe pain or suffering". Even if one were to parse the statute more finely to treat "suffering" as a distinct concept, the waterboard could not be said to inflict severe sufering. The waterboard is simply a controlled acute episode, lacking the connotation of a protracted period of time generally given to suffering."

Think about this for a second. He's trying to claim that "pain or suffering" really means "pain AND suffering". That is absurd on it's face, but it gets worse. So he claims that pain and suffering are the same thing. Then makes that argument that something isn't torture if it causes sufferring but no pain. But didn't he just say that they were the same thing?

this is a clear example of a lawyer trying to twist words to authorize somethign that is clearly illegal. Like I said, we now have proof beyond a reasonable doubt that war crimes were committed. How we respond to this as a country will say a lot about America.

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Comments

  • wombat said on Apr 16, 2009....
    Maybe God doesn't need a lawyer. (Ouch, I'm in a bad mood tonight)  But suffering and pain are synonyms in my book.  Not that I know anything.
  • bloc said on Apr 16, 2009....
    I believe the technical difference is that pain is physical suffering. It doesn't include emotional suffering like fear.

    The Bush Admin is trying to claim that torture is limited to physical pain but the law clearly says "pain OR suffering". So they are trying to play gymnastics with meanings that end up being absurd.
  • bloc said on Apr 16, 2009....
    Here is another sick example 
  • bloc said on Apr 16, 2009....
    Here is the most shocking piece of these memos I've seen so far. It clearly states that our State department condemns other countries that use the exact same techniques the memo's are authorizing. It even makes it clear that the State department considers these techniques to be torture!
  • wombat said on Apr 16, 2009....

    Fear is suffering, right?  And fear is emotional.   (But the threat of fear never goes away, does it?.)

    Sorry...I don't do politics, but then I do stupid stuff like this and pretend I do.  I do go back and re-read, sometimes, so that's the best I can do here.  But good post, and will check back in!

    Fill in the gaps and explain it for a dunderhead....I'm just reading along.

  • bloc said on Apr 16, 2009....
    I don't think there are any gaps. The word twisting done in these memo's simply don't make sense. It's the attempts of The Bush Admin to claim that torture isn't torture. 
  • ALIENated said on Apr 16, 2009.... 
    
I think everyone is so tired of this no one really cares, mainly because
waterboarding is not fatal. It is like standing next to a glass tank that
contains a big rattle snake. If the snake strikes at the glass, you 
cannot help your reflex to pull away. Waterboarding is simply a feeling
of drowning and you just want it to stop. As I understand it, many of
our troops (and probably new terrorist recruits) train to withstand it.
At this point a non-fatal interrogation technique has been villified to
the point that it will no longer be used. Worse techniques will be used
in the future (because there will always be intense interrogations in
war time) and a greater effort to keep it quiet. Giving a shit about
waterboarding is like having an opinion whether teachers should
paddle kids in school. If we were talking about the kinds of things
the North Vietnamese did to our guys in Vietnam or cutting people's
heads off on TV like the radical Muslims do, I might care, but this is
just typical liberal majoring on the minors. Making such a big deal out
of this sort of thing makes logical people wonder what all else is
being blown out of proportion by leftists ... like global warming.
Oops, that is probably a bad example. We know that is being 
blown out of proportion. It is comical how liberals care about this
sort of thing and are undaunted when it comes to leaving an innocent
baby in a store room to die because they were unlucky enough to
survive an abortion that was performed way too late in the game.
I thank God for all the lives that have most likely been saved
because of the backbone displayed by the Bush administration,
and I am saddened by all the lives that will most likely be lost
during the BO administration because of war and abortion.
  • wombat said on Apr 16, 2009....
    (well, I did have a comment where I said, "The Bush admin is gone" but I deleted it.)  I still stand by my ignorance, though.
  • bloc said on Apr 16, 2009....
    In response to alienated I'd simply like to point out that over a dozen people died while being tortured by our government. I'd also like to point out my third comment in this post which shows that the Bush Administration's State department called these exact techniques torture when done by other countries like Iran.

    There is a very simple test here. Would we call it torture if Iran did it to Americans? Would it be torture if Iran locked up American soldiers in boxes so small that they could do nothing but squat? Would it be torture if Iran slammed american prisoners against walls while they are leashed around the neck? Would it be torture if Iran shackled Americans by there wrists with their arms extended behind their backs and their weight was supported by the stress on the shoulder sockets? Would it be torture if Iran shacked americans to a wall standing and prevented them from sleeping for days at a time? Would it be torture if Iran water boarded Americans?

    All of these things were Authorized in these memos, and we have called most of them torture when done by other countries because they are torture.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 16, 2009....
    I don't know what we do about this.  We aren't going to turn Bush over to anybody for trial so we may as well ignore this at this point.
     
     
  • bloc said on Apr 16, 2009....
    We start by assigning a special prosecutor. Hell, one of these lawyers is not a judge and the other is a Professor at Berkley. We can't begin to criticize other countries if this stands.
  • crybabylu said on Apr 16, 2009....
    What do you think will be done about it, bloc?  You state what should be done, but what do you think will be done.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 16, 2009....
    And then what?  I'm part of the belief that all nations do this.  All nations always have and always will.  Bush's mistake was that he sucks at lying not that Clinton didn't do the same thing.
  • crybabylu said on Apr 16, 2009....
    Sean--are you saying Clinton sanctioned waterboarding?
  • D6fer said on Apr 16, 2009....
    jeez bloc....you still beating this worn out drum?.....there is no concrete proof of all of that shit you alleged happened at all.

    Are you going to complain about the current administration spying on American citizens like you did the last one? I can't help but notice you didn't engage in my last post about it.....not even a pop in for an "I told you so"? 
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 16, 2009....

    I think it's likely.  And if he didn't it's not because he wouldn't have its because the situation didn't arrise.  Just like I'm sure that the Brits sanctioned torture after their attacks.  They just had the common sense not to discuss it in public.  What happens behind closed doors stays there.

  • D6fer said on Apr 16, 2009....
    Sean....that is what I have been saying all along.....if the U.S. is doing it, then you can bet your ass that our enemies are doing it tenfold and much worse.....they just don't have traitors in their ranks like we do.

    The whole waterboarding issue is a joke......which would you rather have? 14 seconds of a drowning sensation? or to have your fucking shoulders broken like McCain got?  .....I guarantee you would forget all about the waterboarding after experiencing real torture.
  • ALIENated said on Apr 16, 2009.... 
    
The solution is easy. Declare that waterboarding is not torture, which it is not.
I would rather have our guys waterboarded than have them really tortured and
beheaded, which is going to happen no matter what we do. Face it, Bush did
a great job of handling the terrorists and squelching any further attacks ... 
and that chaps liberals asses to no end. They (liberals) are obsessed with
discrediting Bush and his efforts. It is comical to watch.

Also, we are talking about what the U.S. has done after the U.S. won a war
(like with Japan). If the terrorists ever win, you can bet your ass they will
punish EVERY ONE OF US. To the victor goes the spoils. We have always 
won, so we have always made the rules. We were right to execute German 
and Japanese war criminals, but they were doing things not even in the 
ballpark with waterboarding.
  • ALIENated said on Apr 16, 2009.... 
    
... they just don't have traitors in their ranks like we do.

That is really what I was trying to say.
  • kelly said on Apr 17, 2009....
    "I don't know what we do about this.  We aren't going to turn Bush over to anybody for trial so we may as well ignore this at this point."

    And that's the way it goes for war criminals the world over, for the most part.  No wonder Milosevic complained bitterly and ranted at his trial.  He must have felt singled out.

    Well, I for one do not propose that we ignore atrocities just because they happen to be in the past.  I would be for turning Bush over to the Hague if it came down to that.  If someone tortured and murdered a family member would you be content to have others tell you that since the murderer isn't likely to be prosecuted that you should just ignore it?  Not likely.

    You can cop out and say that's the way the world works or you can chip in to make the world a better place.  Because that's also the way the world works.
  • silverwhisper said on Apr 17, 2009....
    this, sadly, isn't news. we knew that the department of justice incorrectly gave its OK to torture. that's sad, as were many of the things the former president authorized. while i'm mildly disappointed obama said he won't prosecute those involved in waterboarding, apparently it's possible there will be a congressional inquiry.

    ed
  • GrapeKoolaid said on Apr 17, 2009....
    This is a really interesting question... 

    How do you prosecute someone that was doing something that was sanctioned by the "Justice" Department? (scare quotes mine)  These guys were just doing their jobs, defending our "freedom". 

    Hey, you know who's defense that sounds like? 

    Half the Nazis at Nuremburg. 

    Obama already said that he won't prosecute anyone.  He pretty much said, "do-over".  The other guy wasn't right in his mind. 

    You know who that sounds like? 

    Kruschev denouncing Stalin after his death. 

    Nazis and commies all under the same breath.  Indivisible, under God, with liberty and justice for none. 

    Way to go 'Merica. 
  • speaking_up said on Apr 17, 2009....
    Let's bring this home...
     
    Who sits around and thinks these things up (such as waterboarding)?  I'd like to do a psychological profile on this group of obvious sociopaths.
     
    I don't know much about world politics, but I do know a little bit about criminology.  Studies have proven that far too many correctional officers and all volunteer executioners of death row inmates have the same disturbance profiles as the psychopaths they are in charge of.  In fact, a recent study showed right-wing prosecutors and judges are more apt to break the law in gaining a conviction against an individual they 'feel' is guilty than any left or liberal officer of the law.
     
    Bringing it home to me means instead of making it a state affair, let's get down to the grass roots and find out who, exactly, is in charge of the obscene actions of the military.  We can pass the buck all day long but as long as we lower our standards to those of uncivilized countries (and people), we cannot argue against war crimes whatsoever.  American troops are fair meat.
     
    Inflicting torture OR suffering upon fellow humans is about as uncivilized as one can get.  I would never vote in a party who sanction such behavior, and remove myself from any government who does because my own soul just cannot stand the idea of hurting another.
     
    What does your soul tell you about deliberately inflicting torture and/or suffering upon another, for any reason? 
     
    Your answer would tell me a lot about where you are at as a human being.
     
    For myself, I wouldn't even carry a gun to protect myself from a crazed perpretrator.  If it is my time to go, I'll die at his or her hands.  I'd prefer that than to take anyone's life, let alone make someone sit before me to suffer.
     
    Peace and blessings,
     
    c
  • bloc said on Apr 17, 2009....
    Here is some more information worth considering.

    "At least 108 people have died in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, most of them violently, according to government data provided to The Associated Press." source

    It's fascinating to watch neocons claim that people who oppose torture are traitors. Think about that one for a minute.
  • stopmediabias said on Apr 17, 2009....

    Bloc-Great post.  First of all the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment of Punishment defines torture in such a vague and weak manner that even mild interogations could be construed as cruel and inhuman acts. 

    Second, I honestly wish you would open your mind to this, you have this completely narrow view and it is completely misguided.  If you want to take on a crusade why not go after the people who really torture. 

    This pain and suffering being a single concept are you kidding me?  I stand for 8 to 10 hours a day at my job and sometimes later in the day on Friday I am suffering but I am rarely in pain.  None of this matters at all because the pain and/or suffering has to be SEVERE, to meet the qualifications of torture.  The United States during Bush has never done anything severe enough to called torture. 

    You said this in a comment: "Here is the most shocking piece of these memos I've seen so far. It clearly states that our State department condemns other countries that use the exact same techniques the memo's are authorizing. It even makes it clear that the State department considers these techniques to be torture!"

    Condemns other countries that use the EXACT SAME TECHNIQUES.  Go and read that link, actually read it.  It says "appear to bear some resemblance to some of the CIA interrogation techniques."

    Then there is a list of things the State Department included: nudity, water dousing, sleep deprivation, food deprivation.  There are no specific instances sited, nothing put into context, and all is perception when the reality is we don't torture people.  Are any of things above as done by honest Americans in an interrogation severe or extreme enough to be torture?  I don't think so.

    When you put all of this together and add it too the fact there have been numerous investigations and not a single person has been charged or convicted of torturing anyone.  There is a remedy for people who have been tortured, it is usually a certain amount of money.  In order to determine if someone can qualify for this money there is a definition of torture.  Any action to be contrued torture has to rise to level of extreme and be severe.   

  • stopmediabias said on Apr 17, 2009....
    65,000 people detained and 108 died, what is that .0017?  Holy cow I see a clear pattern of attrocities here.  Sorry I can't help it :>
  • curmudgeon said on Apr 17, 2009....
    Hold on a second here - were we at war with the countries from which these waterboarded folks hailed? I don't think so.

    Logically, how can we define these acts as "war crimes" if there was no declaration of war against the detainees' home countries?

    Besides the point is moot. The Obama Administration is not going to prosecute anyone involved in these interrogations, not the operators and not the policy makers. He knows that any such action will simply kill our ability to gather intelligence, as the ones carrying out any interrogations will not trust policy makers to stand by them. Obama would also expose his own Administration to scrutiny and potential prosecution after he leaves office.

    After all, three young Somalis were just murdered in international waters on Obama's standing orders.

    War crimes law cuts both ways.
  • bloc said on Apr 17, 2009....


    This is a person that was interrogated according to these techniques by the CIA. He died while being interrogated. He was beaten and hung by his wrists with his arms behind him so that his weight was supported by his shoulder sockets. It's truly sad to see how neocons will defend this when done by someone with an R by their name.
  • islandbreeze said on Apr 17, 2009....
    Oh my gosh, I'm so tired of hearing this.  Who cares?  What's done is done.  Let's move on and enjoy our new administration and their revamping of the system.

    #1 - The article about 108 detainees being reported as killed doesn't necessarily mean we tortured each one to death.  These detainees don't care about living anyways.  They include suicide bombers.  They don't care about living.  They want to die and be with their 40 virgins.  So is it not possible that they want to kill themselves and bite their own tongues, to commit suicide because they do not want to cooperate with what they consider to be "the American capitalist pigs?"  And also, even the article states that there were uprisings which ended up in certain cases being excessive force.  Well, how do you deal with terrorists who want to kill anyone who is American, even a reporter (i.e. Daniel Pearl)?  Put a dunce cap on the terrorist and put put him in the corner?  How do you deal with someone who doesn't have any regard for human life and is willing to kill his or her own people as long as they kill an American?  Just smack their hand for doing so?  And you can bet that our American POWs taken in by terrorist groups don't give a damn about morality or ethics.  It's not like we're the only group/organization that uses torture.  It's just we put limits on torture whereas terrorists have NO limits on torture and probably even ENJOY it.  

    # 2 - I totally agree about D6fer:  "if the U.S. is doing it, then you can bet your ass that our enemies are doing it tenfold and much worse.....they just don't have traitors in their ranks like we do."  Like mentioned, THEY ARE DOING IT but are doing far worse and have no regard to human life, not even their own.  After trying to get info from their detainees, they slowly sever heads and tape it and are proud to show the whole world what they've done.

    # 3 - I'm sure there were things that happened (ie horrible war crimes or even secret wars) that took place in Clinton's administration too.  Maybe you can research that and find out stuff too?  I mean, I didn't even know about the secret war (ie "conflict") in Somalia until I came upon a blog about it from which eventually the movie was later based upon years later.
  • bloc said on Apr 17, 2009....
    Again, here is the Bush administration pointing out that we condemn other countries use these same techniques.


    free image hosting
  • islandbreeze said on Apr 17, 2009....
    Can you show me the source of that picture?

    And can you also show me one of what the terrorists do to our POWs?  If you can find one that is.  

    Might I add that not all terrorists are treated that way.  Terrorists are a dangerous group that have an intent on killing people, on killing Americans, civilians or not and yet with our ACLU and liberals, we must be delicate with our interactions with terrorists.
  • bloc said on Apr 17, 2009....
    I'd like to point out to islandbreeze that the Bush administration asserted the power to kidnap anyone (including americans) and torture them without every presenting any evidence that the person is guilty of anything. Do you really support this type of power islandbreeze?


  • islandbreeze said on Apr 17, 2009....
    Sounds like Mexico to me.  

    Forgive me for my ignorance, Bloc, I don't mean to question you or offend you.

    Can you explain why the Bush admin would even want to kidnap someone without just cause?
  • bloc said on Apr 17, 2009....
    "Can you explain why the Bush admin would even want to kidnap someone without just cause?"

    That's a great question. I don't know if they would or not, but that's not why it concerns me. I agree with the views of the founding fathers that power corrupts and that we need to be a nation of laws and checks and balances. I believe that people should have a right to a fair trial, and I believe in basic human rights. When I enlisted in the Army I did it to defend these ideals and it saddens me to watch us descend into torture.

    I guess the question I would ask is why shouldn't the President have to give Americans a trial. Why shouldn't people we arrest far away from any battle field get some form of due process?

    When you combine this with torture it gets really scary. We know that torture will cause people to say things that aren't true just to make the torture stop. What's to stop a President from torturing someone who says that islandbreeze is a terrorist just to make the torture stop. The President then kidnaps you and has you tortured based on a tortured confession?

    I think there are good reasons to require the government to present evidence against people and to not torture people.
  • crybabylu said on Apr 17, 2009....
    tor·ture      (tôr  ch r) KEY  

    NOUN:
      1. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
      2. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
    2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
    3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.
    TRANSITIVE VERB:
    tor·tured , tor·tur·ing , tor·tures
    1. To subject (a person or an animal) to torture.
    2. To bring great physical or mental pain upon (another). See Synonyms at afflict.
    3. To twist or turn abnormally; distort: torture a rule to make it fit a case.

     _____

    somehow, this definition doesn't adequately describe torture, does it? I don't think it can be easily defined!

  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 17, 2009....

    The Bush Admin would want to kidnap US citizens for the same reason I would.  You never know who is going to be the problem.  You can't let a pesky thing like where a man was born protect him from being guilty or innocent.

    While I wouldn't riot I'd be pissed if we turned over Bush. Especially if it didn't immediatly get any and all other "evil" leaders turned over.  If sacrificing Bush got is Kim and Fidel ok, fair trade.

    Also Kelly you're right appealing to my emotional half would get an irrational response.  If a family member of mine had been tortured to death I'd likely have different (wrong) opinions.  Just like if I'd lost a family member to a man driving high I probably wouldn't feel strongly about legalizing marijuana.  If I had lived through the 60's like my Father I wouldn't see anything wrong with anything Reverend Wright said.  Should I go on about how "if I had" makes for illogical arguments?

  • D6fer said on Apr 17, 2009....
    "Can you explain why the Bush admin would even want to kidnap someone without just cause?"

    That's a great question. I don't know if they would or not

    Bush is gone.....so the answer is they would not.

    Bush had the nuclear codes too and never used them

    Bloc, you asked the question earlier if anyone would want our soldiers subjected to any of these techniques, and the answer is they have.....special ops are subjected to waterboarding and other methods of persuasion, so they can learn to resist it if they are ever captured.......they should be so lucky to merely get waterboarded if captured....chances are they would have their heads slowly sawed off like Nick Berg.


  • ALIENated said on Apr 17, 2009.... 
    
D6, you might as well piss in the wind as try to convince Bush haters of
anything. Sometimes I think the networks must be sending out some
kind of sublimital message to them ... hate Bush, Bush must die, Bush tortured
people, Bush is Hitler, ...  I heard some discussion on PBS (that is right,
PBS) about all this and they were saying no one in going to be prosecuted
because most of the congress (the senate?) would have to be prosecuted.
They were briefed several times on all this and some of them even asked if
what we were doing was enough. When the 2004 elections were over and
Bush won again, the gloves came off, and it became party over country. I
am with you. If anyone should be prosecuted, it should probably be the
networks, the liberal news media, for risking our country and our troops to
advance their agenda. Plus, they were saying on PBS that BO (or any
president) would use any means possible as well to protect our country.
They would not be much of a president otherwise. And one guy said this
stuff, while disgusting to most, is not classified as torture. Liberals should
just chill. No president is going to be prosecuted (by us, maybe some 
other government, if they ever win against us) for protecting our country
any way they can. Notice that bloc will not answer how he can get so 
upset about this when the whole Democrat party sanctions, and almost 
encourages, the murder of innocent babies every day. How can you give
a shit about what happened to weasel terrorists and not care about 
innocent life? Just more illogical liberal crapola. Get that plank out of your
eye and we will worry about the splinter in Bush's eye. I need to go get
some abortion pictures to post here. They make those "torture" pictures
look tame.
  • D6fer said on Apr 17, 2009....
    Hey....did you know that Obama had three black teenagers shot in the head last week.....that's right....they were only teenagers....and that evil bastard had them killed in cold blood.
  • crybabylu said on Apr 17, 2009....

    Alienated----I don't think people see it the same thing.  It's like comparing apples and oranges.  Just because Conservatives are against abortion and other so-called "liberal" thinking doesn't make them right about torture.

    What scares me about torture is that it can happen against anyone and without cause.  One just has to be suspected of being a terrorist, and they can be tortured.  How come you don't find that scary?

    What gets me is that it is predicted that some day "Christians" are going to be considered to be terrorists.  Many believe that.  What will you say then?  What if Christians someday are tortured? 

    You know your Bible well.  I've always been impressed by your knowledge of the Bible, whether I agree with your interpretation of it or not.  Do you know Revelation?  It's pretty scary what is prophesied that will be done towards Christians.  Torture is the least of them.  Why would we want a machine that will end up being pointed right at us? 

    I don't like torture period.  I think it's inhumane.  No living thing should ever experience it.  That should be enough to be against it, but if it is not, then think about the possibility of someday, it being used against you and/or the ones you love.

  • D6fer said on Apr 17, 2009....
    crybabylu.....the Obama administration is already laying the groundwork for labeling christians as terrorists....I noticed that you commented on my "big brother" post.....did you bother to read it? can you see the path they are building?
  • bloc said on Apr 17, 2009....
    @d6

    Are you serious? Are you really serious? Please keep talking because everyone can see how absurd the neocon movement is becoming. Please keeping complaining about us shooting people who had kidnapped an american and were holding a gun to his head as they were shot. Please keep talking about this, please.
  • D6fer said on Apr 17, 2009....
    ok.....I will....they are dead....Khalid sheik Mohammad is still alive.....he was responsible for many deaths.....and you give a shit that he was waterboarded?.....how about his buddy that got put into a box with a fucking caterpillar?.....He helped plan the 9/11attacks....he still lives......you fucking liberal hypocrites are always insisting on appeasing terrorists and criminals and avoiding violence.....unless of course your messiah gives the go-ahead to pull the trigger!
  • speaking_up said on Apr 18, 2009....
    Alienated...(no wonder)

     

    I can't help but see that you are constantly protecting unborn 'babies' in your shots to bloc throughout this debate.   I find this typical retort by right wing fundamentalists intriguing whenever the subject of human to human degradation is discussed.  If diversion of the real subject is all you have, ah well...there we be.

    It is a scapegoat and unresponsive response to some valid queries going on in this thread.  In case you haven't noticed, this topic is not about abortion (nor is it about your other self-serving causes)...it is about what the Bush Administration has done CONSCIOUSLY contrary to human decency in world affairs - and what is being done to prevent such travesties from continuing.  You don't seem to care whatsoever about face-to-face suffering.  Rather, all you seem to have is a rant bringing up a women's right to end a pregnancy.  Are you gay?  A woman?  (No, you are not, because women, for the most part, know when a baby is a baby and when an embryo is an embryo).  If women 'felt' within their own freaking bodies, that to have an abortion would bring about a severe punishing painful experience to a child within - abortion would not exist.  Alas, you have to be a child-bearing woman to really know that.

    So shut up about what you know nothing about already.

    Since we are off topic, I thought I would ask you; why do they put hoods over the faces of people being hanged by the state?  What do you suppose it looks like under the covers when one hangs by a rope around his neck?

    My point in that statement is this: I find it odd that right-wing fundamentalists are almost always pro death sentence, yet anti abortion.  WTF?  And, of the right-wing fundamentalists I have encountered (here is the kicker) are anti women as well as non American POW rights (cause women nor foreigners need unique protection in our little world, right?).  Really a weird contradiction for your anti abortion bandwagon, isn't it?

    I laugh out loud at republican males screaming at the top of their lungs against abortion. 

    Grasshopper (Alienated), take care of yourself and yours.  If you really took care of your own personal, family obligations and business, you wouldn't be minding those of which you know nothing about.  You need to get a real argument for your pro torture/suffering stance if you are to receive any credibility or respect.

  • stopmediabias said on Apr 18, 2009....

    Bloc-LOL-You are delusional and swimming in a pack of lies.  The iceman picture above has been debunked more times than global warming but hey the picture makes a good effect. 

    I was hoping you would read the memo you linked and all you did was post it again, it's not same techniques because we don't torture people and you can't prove we torture people. 

    When I saw this "war crimes beyond a reasonable doubt" I said to myself maybe he's actually found some reasonable proof, but no, it's the same tired logic you keep beating to death and none if is true.  If all this is beyond a reasonable doubt don't you think someone would have actually been arrested and charged with war crimes/torture?  Don't you think the investigations would have uncovered some form of torture?  The Obama administration isn't prosecuting because they just just want to move forward, they aren't because they have no case.

    The programs employed by the Bush Administration were not even close to torture, worked, and saved a lot of lives.  President Obama is playing with fire here because we still have radical Islamists who want to destroy everything.  There will come a time where he will be in the same position, he's not stupid he gonna do the same exact thing as Bush and the Democrats who agreed did. 

      

  • stopmediabias said on Apr 18, 2009....

    Java-Sorry dude but that video is a fake, there are some seriously bad terrorist videos out there that are real, but this one is staged.  It's kind of funny.

    The logic here is two wrongs don't make a right, just because terrorists torture people doesn't give us the right too.  My position is I don't believe we torture people and there is no reasonalbe proof that we have, and most of the garbage floating around is nonsense peddled by people who make a profit off of lies. 

  • kelly said on Apr 18, 2009....
    "Should I go on about how "if I had" makes for illogical arguments?"

    Yes, please do.  How does refusing to hold the guilty accountable make any sense at all in a civilized society?

    Here's the deal.  People who weren't involved or who don't really have a strong moral sense are happy to "just forget about it."  They don't want to have to think.  The victims and those who are outraged by atrocities can never forget about it.

    "...the Obama administration is already laying the groundwork for labeling christians as terrorists..."

    Man, oh, man.  The Republican lie machine never sleeps.
  • ALIENated said on Apr 18, 2009.... 
    
Hey look. Someone created another alt (speaking up). Maybe PeterDopie.

I find it odd that right-wing fundamentalists are almost always pro death 
sentence, yet anti abortion.  WTF?

Yes, do speak up more. Maybe explain how one likens murdering innocent 
babies to executing criminals who have done some god awful crime like 
rape and kill a woman. And for your information, I was excused from the
last murder trial I was invited to (a man that admittedly killed his wife 
and two children) because I will not sentence someone to death. I do
not care if others do. That is their decision. I would rather see some SOB
rot in jail for the rest of their miserable lives.

I am not for torture at all. Of course that will mean nothing to the godless
who will soon be persecuting Christians. I am not advocating torture, I am
just pointing out that George Bush is not the only one to blame. People
like Hillary and Ted Kennedy (and most of congress) were told what was
going on. But this is not about torture. It is about humiliating Bush. I
really do not get it. Mindless people have bought into the villianous picture
the liberal media and Hollywood have painted of Bush. There are just too
many reports that contradict that image for me to buy into it. Besides, if
Bush is guilty of anything, many Democrats are just as guilty. That is why
he will never be "held accountable" even if he actually should be. 

Believe me, we have more important things to worry about now that BO 
and his cronies have taken over, and we will never know what they are 
doing given the lap dogs at MSNBC, CNBC, and the other propaganda news
organizations. They are already trying to move attention away from real
terrorists and focus the attention on those who would oppose their plans
for the future, like Christians and conservatives. It is so predictible it is
almost laughable. It would be funny if it were not so seriously scary. For
all the talk of Big Brother over the years, we are finally about to see it
happen at the hands of the socialists that have just taken power. God
help us.

Sorry D6, as I understand it, BO told the commander of the kidnapping
mission not to do anything in the way of taking the kidnappers out. The
commander took it on himself to do the right thing and then the OhBummer
folks jumped all over it and took credit. They claim it shows how tough
BO is. OMG, what a bunch of hypocrit assholes. Spin it, baby, spin it.
  • kelly said on Apr 18, 2009....
    "I guess I'm still trying to grasp the double standard here..."

    I think you grasp the double standard just fine.  It's bad when other countries torture, it's OK when we torture.  Don't be so hard on yourself.
  • bloc said on Apr 18, 2009....
    javadewd has been blocked and he is not welcome on my blog.

    @d6
    The picture is an Iraqi who was tortured by the CIA at abu ghraib using the techniques outlined in these memos. This is fact.

    I'm not sure why you have a hard time understanding the difference between torturing a captive and shooting kidnappers who are holding a gun to a persons head. All the rest of us see the difference.
  • stopmediabias said on Apr 19, 2009....

    Bloc how many times have we gone over that picture?  You remember this, you know the case, you know the circumstances around the case, are you living in denial here?

    What is interesting about this debate is we still have the same problems and these issues haven't been resolved.  What happens now if we catch another Kalid Sheik Mohammed?  Is President Obama going listen to the far left, the far right, or is going to go by logic and reason.  The latter being yes we can harshly interrogate people without torturing them or violating reasonable human rights standards.

  • bloc said on Apr 19, 2009....
    " The comments by your dissenting reader and Abe Greenwald both contain a typical point made by the pro- "coercive interrogation" crowd. Namely, that the techniques used in the interrogations are not only not torture, but that they are barely mild annoyances, and that it's ludicrous to be making a fuss about them. Some have even gone so far as to apply that characterization to waterboarding, calling it merely a "splash in the face" or a "dunk in the water".

    What bothers me about this viewpoint is that if these techniques are so harmless, then how do they even work?

    If a face slap is not big deal, then how does it result in information? If putting an insect in a cage with a prisoner is something to laugh about, why are they insisting that it works? Do they really imagine that enemy prisoners with incredible, ticking time-bomb information fold so easily?

    Or might it take an extra slap or two? Maybe a bit harder to get to a level that is tougher to withstand? Maybe a few days with no sleep? Still nothing? Ok, then perhaps a stress position as well? Hey, are we getting some weeping? Good, now we're getting somewhere.

    Step by step, pushing harder ever more slightly. Until the prisoner breaks, and we get some information. And if the prisoner doesn't break? Then we simply push even harder. After all, our country is at stake, right?

    And this leads me to my second point. In the Hayden and Mukasey article today, they make a point that these interrogations are about getting information, not confessions. But what if the captive doesn't have the intelligence we want or has already told us all he knows? If he says he has no further information, do we believe him? Or do we start pushing a little, to see what else might be there? And when that yields nothing, what then? If we truly believe this person has critical intelligence, can we stop?" source
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 19, 2009....

    You have to make a judgement call at that point.  Not everybody is going to know everything.  I think that much goes completely without saying.  We simply have to trust at some point that we have gotten the right guy and hope that he'll give up the information.

    Despite mountains of evidence to the contrary I find it equally absured that viable information could be acquired by being nice to a criminal particularly in any short period of time.  PErhaps over months or years brainwashing could be possible but I for lack of a better term respect enemy combatants enough to believe that no amount of money or kindness would make them betray their cause.  While I've never been captured and offered a palace so I don't know I hope I would hold true to my nation and the people I was fighting to protect and not sell out.  On the other hand everybody has a breaking point.  It's simply a matter of if the other guys stomach is strong enough to go there. 

  • bloc said on Apr 19, 2009....
    Except that we have evidence of the contrary. We know that zybayday gave us good intel prior to being tortured and here is what we know about the torture.

    "[T]he harsher handling produced no breakthroughs, according to one former intelligence official with direct knowledge of the case. Instead, watching his torment caused great distress to his captors, the official said. Even for those who believed that brutal treatment could produce results, the official said, “seeing these depths of human misery and degradation has a traumatic effect.”" source

    Sean, we also know for a fact that none of these cases were a ticking time bomb scenario.

    "PErhaps over months or years brainwashing could be possible"

    Again, we know absolutely that it doesn't take this long. How can one find something absurd when there is "mountains of evidence" to the contrary? Isn't this the definition of being ideological?

    The other really disturbing part of all of this is that Zubaydah was not the person the Bush admin thought he was. They thought he was some high level Al Qaeda officer and he was really just a secretary. That should give every honest person pause about our torture program.
  • crybabylu said on Apr 19, 2009....
    gives me pause big time, and as always, your point is well stated.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 19, 2009....

    Like I said no matter how much evidence piles up saying that cookies and milk is better than crucifiction it makes no sense.  I do no understand how a patriot could do that to their country or their religion and yet at the same time be willing to strap a bomb to themselves.  As much as I love my nation Obama himself could order me to strap a bomb to myself and I'd give him the finger. 

    I'd say perhaps its a matter of mindsets but supposedly this works better across the board.  Which again makes no sense.  Unless just the ratio of sickos to normies is much higher than I Would guess why didn't we just stick to asking them questions politely since the beginning of time if it was so effective?

  • D6fer said on Apr 19, 2009....
    bloc.....I have yet to see a credible source for the photo you posted.....I think if that were true this picture would be on the network news every night.....that could be a picture of a man kept on ice to slow the rotting process....it could be a man with a high fever receiving treatment for all I know.

    btw...why block javadewd?.....we have had some pretty intense debates before and yet here we are....what did he do? did I miss something?
  • crybabylu said on Apr 19, 2009....
    D6----thot i'd pop in and comment about ur network news mention.....just ask smb about network news.   ....you know like in "bias".....it's a wonder any of that news got out.  Of all that was going on, and we still don't even know half of it, the "liberal" news as you have sometimes refered to it as, had its own problem getting the news out there....and that is just my opinion, but it is based on how little we were told....
  • D6fer said on Apr 19, 2009....
    crybabylu....please....anyone who believes that the majority of our media is not liberally biased is naive....there have even been polls of the media and they are overwhelmingly liberal.....Dan Rather tried to fix an election for crying out loud!

    Admissions of Liberal Bias. A number of journalists have admitted that the majority of their brethren approach the news from a liberal angle. During the 2004 presidential campaign, for example, Newsweek’s Evan Thomas predicted that sympathetic media coverage would boost Kerry’s vote by “maybe 15 points,” which he later revised to five points. In 2005, ex-CBS News President Van Gordon Sauter confessed he stopped watching his old network: “The unremitting liberal orientation finally became too much for me.”

    Source
  • kelly said on Apr 19, 2009....
    "... why didn't we just stick to asking them questions politely since the beginning of time if it was so effective?"

    Because torture is not about getting information out of someone.  Torture is its own end, not  the means to an end.  Torture is a terror tactic.  Torture is used to gratify the sociopathic mind.  Torture is not about "saving" anyone.  It is simply the exertion of a twisted will on another.  Torture is for people who get their kicks inflicting pain.
  • stopmediabias said on Apr 20, 2009....

    Bloc & Kelly-You haven't proven anything and yet you continue to claim we torture people.  And you are part of the same people and organization, you make money off those people and orgranizations, and you still make claims of attrocities without even reasonable proof, this completely blows my mind.  In Lincolns time people like you would be hung.

  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 20, 2009....
    Again Kelly that would suggest that people in general are simply more evil that I am inclined to believe.  You may be right.  MAybe people are evil in general but then why are we having this discussion at all?  And why haven't the evil people slaughtered us?
  • curmudgeon said on Apr 20, 2009....
    Right and wrong are not relative - they're contextual.

    While some might think handing Bush over to the Hague would be "right", one must realize that in four or eight years if a Republican wins, we might be only too willing to hand Obama over for anything he has done - such as killing innocents in Pakistan and slaughtering youth (voluntary Coast Guards, as Al Sharpton recently put it) in international waters.

    There's what's right and there's what's right just a few years from now. Obama will likely try to just let this go away.

    I will not be surprised when stories come out about rendition-interrogation programs to cooperative countries come out on Obama within the next few years, especially if he does anything to piss off the CIA.

    I will, however, expect those who have been calling for Bush's prosection to apply their sense of justice with equanimity.
  • speaking_up said on Apr 20, 2009....

    Alienated...are you a judge? 

    "And for your information, I was excused from the
    last murder trial I was invited to (a man that admittedly killed his wife
    and two children) because I will not sentence someone to death. I do
    not care if others do. That is their decision. I would rather see some SOB
    rot in jail for the rest of their miserable lives."

    Or was this a freudian slip?

    And one of the reasons Christians are persecuted is because they have made themselves out to be the almighty and chosen few judges regarding all matters of sin, or what christians percieve as sin.  However, what they are shouts so loud no one can hear what they are trying to preach anymore.

    I use to be a protestant liberal Christian, but after the death of my only child, my son, I was washed over with an awakening of this bizarre cult when the paster  told me my son was in hell - because he never did as the good Christian folk tell us we MUST do to get there...acknowledge Jesus Christ as the saviour. 

    I think God would rather have my son sit on the right side of his throne, who lived his life with a heart of gold toward all peoples, than this holier-than-thou Christian church leader who left me thrashing in pain with his so-called religious council (until I gave my head a shake and left the freaks at the church).  

    Personally, I think Christ himself would be mighty pissed off at the way so-called 'christians' abuse his name, memory, and teaching.  Christians (and other religions) use their bibles to pound on the weak until they bleed.  Sorry, not a very attractive organization to belong to at all.

    For myself, now, Christians = spiritual pygmies.  They have not evolved, as we were all meant to do.  

    People are leaving the church in droves, because the religion is nothing but a breeding ground for the likes of hateful people just like you. 

    Don't answer, every time I see your rants I feel the need to have a shower.

     

  • stopmediabias said on Apr 20, 2009....

    speaking up-your personal belief in God is important, not some nutcase paster's warped opinion, my opinon or Alien's opinion. 

    In every religion there are wackos and the few wackos are not representative of Christians in general.

    As Christians we don't call for people to be without sin, we call for them to recognize their sin.

    And your son is standing in the light.   

  • brettls1 said on Apr 20, 2009....
    If you want to know the truth on racism read this book. Finally someone makes a stands against the blacks. Buy it at frustracism.com
  • speaking_up said on Apr 20, 2009....
    stopmediabias - you sent goosebumps up my spine with your final statement (((bless your heart))).  Yes, I know there are some beautiful Christian people who do know how to love (like you).  I apologise for my brush stroke against the religion.  The junk I have been fed since my own very strong spiritual experiences since T died has just piled up too high for me to trust traditional teachings anymore.  (((hugs)))
     
    PS I am an evolving Christian (a Christian without a church).  Even in the most liberal church I risk being persecuted myself when I reveal my own very strong spiritual experiences since T passed away...in fact, God and his son Jesus Christ means more to me today than ever because I recognized Him when he came in my hour of extreme need.  I don't have to have faith anymore.  I know.
     
    Unfortunately, most Christians (or people in general) do not get the beautiful experiences I have been blessed to see and hear after my son's passing.  I now know there is far more to our purpose and lives than what we are trained about in church.  However, sadly, to talk about it with non-experiencers is to set myself up for shunning in a church, or locked away by medical practitioners.  So I keep quiet about it ('cept in anonymous blog sites like this one!).
     
    Sigh.  I am okay however.  As I told a private messager earlier today, I started my own spiritual group in my community - and these folks have no doubt whatsoever in an afterlife for all.  Since November we now have 29 members and it grows monthly.
     
    I am way off topic here and I hope bloc doesn't get too upset...thank you again for your very kind message.  I felt your spirit of love...
  • ALIENated said on Apr 20, 2009.... 
    
No, I meant I was excused from jury duty because the trial demanded the
death penalty if the accused was proven guilty. I am for the death penalty,
but I am not willing to personally deliver it. 

Sorry about your loss, but otherwise you sound pretty confused about
Christianity. You most likely were attending the wrong church. No one
knows where people are going when they die except God and maybe
that person.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 21, 2009....
    How can you be for the death penalty but not willing to deliver it?  Sounds like someone should be against the penalty or gain the courage to follow their convictions.
  • GrapeKoolaid said on Apr 21, 2009....
    I'm sure you guys are aware of the DHS report that came out about domestic terrorists labeling laptop liberals and extreme fundies as potential targets.  That basically makes anyone who is not "on board" with the program a potential threat.  Basically, all of us on this thread. 

    This combined with illegal wiretapping and state sanctioned torture, this country is headed in a direction that few want to see.  All in the name of combating terror and preserving what limited freedom left available to us, mainly, the freedom to consume. 

    The DHS report took a year to write, so some would say that you can't put this on Obama administration, if they are complicit in participation, that makes them just as culpable as the Bush administration. 


  • bloc said on Apr 21, 2009....
    back to Sean's point about normal interrogation taking too long. Did you see the part in the Memo were it says we waterboarded one of them 183 times in one month. Hm, something doesn't add up here. First, how did they know he had more info or at this point was the torture about something other than information? Second, this highlights one of the lies that went around for a long time and one that smb helped spread. Remember that smb said numerous times on this site that waterboarding was only used something like 3 times for a couple of minutes. This is why you don't trust the torturers to tell you the truth.

    Another indicator of torture is the fact that they have destroyed evidence. Remember that some guy in the CIA destroyed tapes of the interrogations despite the claim that he was told not to. Yet he hasn't been punished for disobeying an order. Also, the tapes of padilla's interrogations got "lost", yeah right.

    Let us also consider abu ghraib. What we say in those photos were milder than some of the techniques authorized by Bush yet we prosecuted those soldiers. Isn't something seriuosly wrong here? Bush put american soldiers in prison for doing less than his administration authorized. Want to know why, you can't twist words when pictures are involved. This is why the interrogation taps were destroyed and "lost". They were proof of torture.

    @d6
    What exactly are you suggesting is false about the photo I posted? What I've said is true and I still haven't heard anything to the contrary.
  • bloc said on Apr 21, 2009....
    John McCain, "waterboarding is torture period ... [torture] serves as a great propaganda tool for those who recruit people to fight against us".
  • GrapeKoolaid said on Apr 21, 2009....
    What I want to know is why so many in our society want to believe that torture works. 

    We all know that torture is an unreliable method of extracting information.  To avoid the stressful situation, people under duress will tell you anything to make that uncomfortable situation stop.  He'll tell you that 2+2=5.  In fact, according to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, 9 out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk without using stress methods at all. 

    We also know that it's a bad idea in a sense that in encourages reciprocity, undermines US credibility abroad. 

    So why is it that people are willing to sanction torture?  How will that make the US safer?  No one in support of torturing detainees has given me a satisfactory answer on these questions so far. 
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 21, 2009....

    Honestly because it doesnt' make sense that torture doesn't work.  And we see basically in our day to day lives that it does.  We spank children and usually it works.  you can tell me all about how you don't do that to your child but honestly walking around the mall you can tell which kids the parents don't occasionally swat.  Those are the ones screaming.

    I also personally find it difficult to believe that nine out of ten people will talk under favorable conditions.  I can only say I wouldn't.  Particularly not if it would cost Americans lives.  So I assume that the other guy is just a loyal, if not more loyal to his cause. 

    What I don't understand is why if normal interrogation is successful why torture generally becomes involved.  I mean most people in my experience take the past of least resistance whenever possible and if sitting a guy in a room and talking worked wouldn't want to be bothered setting up the waterboarding table.

    I can buy that there are x amount of sadistic people out there.  I can be quite sadistic myself but the frequency with which torture is used here and abroad either means more people are sadistic than I thought or it works more often than we're being lead to believe.

    Also that guy who was waterboarded 183 times in a month.  Yeah they were just having fun by that point.  I mean it clearly wasn't an imment threat thirty days later.

  • mOOn_platOOn said on Apr 21, 2009....

    O

    Hmmm. I'm sorry, but anyone who believes in something should be willing to deliver it, act as its agent. If not, therein lies hypocrisy. Like meat eaters unwilling to kill and skin the animal, would-be-waterboarders aren't ready to "pull out the fingernails" themselves, and death-penalty advocates aren't ready to throw the switch. How can they expect others to do what they, themselves, cannot or will not do? I don't even understand how that works.

    O

  • bloc said on Apr 21, 2009....
    "Honestly because it doesnt' make sense that torture doesn't work.  And we see basically in our day to day lives that it does.  We spank children and usually it works.  you can tell me all about how you don't do that to your child but honestly walking around the mall you can tell which kids the parents don't occasionally swat.  Those are the ones screaming."

    This is a pile of ... stuff that doesn't make sense. First, torturing to get information is nothing like using violence to scare a child out of doing something. They aren't even remotely the same thing. What makes perfect sense is that someone being tortured will say anything to make it stop. 

    If the goal of torture is to get false confessions, they yes, torture undoubtedly works for that. If the goal is to get reliable information then I would say it doesn't work so well. Not only that, how do you know if the person has information? Again, we waterboarded one of these guys 183 times in a single month? Did we get reliable information the 183'd time? I seriously doubt it. Did the people we tortured give us a lot of bad information? Probably. 

    "I can buy that there are x amount of sadistic people out there.  I can be quite sadistic myself but the frequency with which torture is used here and abroad either means more people are sadistic than I thought or it works more often than we're being lead to believe."

    There have been psychological experiments that show that people react to their environments. Here is the famous example about prisoners and guards. Let me know what you think.

    "What I don't understand is why if normal interrogation is successful why torture generally becomes involved. "

    Because torture isn't about information. It's about power, it's about fear, and it's about getting false confessions in many cases. Ultimately Orwell is right. The point of torture is torture. I'll point again to the 183 times in one month. Remember, this was closely supervised and can't be chalked up to some guards on the night shift. 

    But this is not the real issue. Does terrorism work? Sometimes it does. Does that mean we should become terrorists?
  • D6fer said on Apr 21, 2009....
    mOOn platOOn......there are many jobs that people do that others don't want to......like septic service!
  • ALIENated said on Apr 21, 2009.... 
    
I am against abortion, but I am not going to go out and blow anthing up or
shoot any doctors. I would be no better than the abortionists (a murderer).
I am also not in favor of homosexuality, but I do not think it should be a
crime. It is their sin, not mine. As far at the death penalty, I am not willing 
to impose it because I am a Christian. I personally would rather not sentence 
people to death. Death is so final. They are proving people in prison innocent
every day now that DNA testing can be done. Plus, I think someone rotting 
in prision is a much worse punishment than instant death.

What other people want to do is their business. Liberals are the ones who 
think everyone has to think exactly as they do. I base my opinions on what 
I think is right and wrong. If other people want to take the chance of burning
in hell for all eternity, that is their problem.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 21, 2009....

    I didn't get all the way to the end of that slide show bloc but I got the gist of it (I think).  They really didn't do anything I wouldn't have in those circumstances as the guards.  On the prisoner side they worked with what they had available.  That said I don't fully understand the logic of going at it that way from the get go.  Sure there are criminals that have to be forcefully taken, but given how many of our prisoners are infor stupid shit, you could probably walk in ask them politely to cuff themselves and get in the car and they'd do it.

    Aside from people are mean I don't understand why (and never did) a greater effort isn't made to make prison barable so they don't riot to begin with. 

    Wait, as a Christian you're against the death penalty but. . .no that's so hypocritical it makes my head explode.

  • ALIENated said on Apr 22, 2009.... 
    
I know. Liberals have trouble understanding how someone could hold an 
opinion and not want to force it on everyone else. I am saying that I do
not think the death penalty is wrong, I just do not personally want to be
responsible for a person being put to death, especially when there is a
possiblity that I could be wrong. If others are comfortable with that, that
is their choice. You do not believe in murder, I would assume, but you do
nothing to stop abortion, which is murder no matter how you try to
explain it away. Best case, BO's stance that even if a baby could survive
after an abortion is can be left to die because is was supposed to be
aborted. That is murder no matter how you might want to ignore it. By
electing the asshole that believes that, you are an accessory to murder.
I do not want to be a possible accessory to murder (if the person on 
trial turns out to be innocent). And, of course, if I am ever called to a
trial for someone like one of the 9/11 terrorists, I might just stay for that
one.
  • ALIENated said on Apr 22, 2009.... 
    
Hmmm. I'm sorry, but anyone who believes in something should be willing to 
deliver it, act as its agent. If not, therein lies hypocrisy.

So you would be comfortable with the abortion mill calling you in to perform
an abortion or two, just to get the feel of it, get your hands dirty?

It makes my head explode that liberals / Democrats can expend so much
emotion towards our enemies, terrorists, and not give a shit about the
hundreds of babies that are sucked and gouged out of their mother's
womb each day.

Following your logic, women should have to perform their own 
abortions, but why in a back alley? Why not on public TV?

Speaking of trials, I often imagine all these aborted babies being on the
jury when BO, people like him, and his supporters get to heaven, if that
is where they go before being reassigned to their final destination.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 22, 2009....

    Life starts at birth.  Can't kill something that's not alive.  Even if you can it's an entirely different subject.  Just like soldiers don't murder.  They kill.  There is a difference.

    Sorry ALIEN you can't win this one.  You can't even back into a logical corner and hold it.  If you support the death sentence you should be willing to actually support it and go on a jury where that is a possible outcome.  You might be wrong but part of the way our jury system is supposed to work is Guilty beyond reasonable doubt.  If you felt there was any way that man didn't do the crime, any way that couldn't be explained away then you should have gone in and voted Innocent and kept voting innocent until they either declared a hung jury or the others sided with you.  Instead you may have just let an innocent man die because you refused to step up and play the game.

    Also nobody is asking you to be the one to pull the trigger so I don't know why your saying everybody should go in and perform an abortion.  Sides their yicky.  Most people today don't have the stomach to slaughter their own meat and would likely be vegetarians if they had to watch it happen.  It's an emotional argument not a logic based on.

  • speaking_up said on Apr 22, 2009....
    Alienated:  You said, "As far at the death penalty, I am not willing
    to impose it because I am a Christian."  Have you read the Gospel?  Didn't Jesus bring home the message that even THINKING about (insert sin of your choice) - is a sin.  Last time I was in church we were told God sees our thoughts.  He knows our deepest darkest sides.
     
    Be fair warned now, that you just might be heading straight to hell with all of the bad thoughts you harbor, yet want someone else to inflict because of your so-called claim to righteousness (being a Christian).
     
    On that same vein, a psychiatrist out of Seattle did a psychological profile on death row inmates...and toward the end of her work decided to do the same profile on the volunteer executioners.  The two groups had identical pathological disorders.  Identical. 
     
     
  • GrapeKoolaid said on Apr 22, 2009....
    I won't say that I'm more familiar with the gospels than another, but I don't recall Jesus saying anything about thinking about things being a sin. 

    St. Thomas Aquinas (a medieval talking orca whale, or possibly Jabba the Hutt) however, did drive that point home many times, I think. 

    Having said that, if you're selected as a juror and if you feel that the defendant is guilty or first degree murder beyond all reasonable doubt (as in a confession or something), you have to convict that person.  If your state has the death penalty, you have to be willing to impose that sentence on him/her.  Otherwise, you don't believe in it, I'd say. 

    Getting back to the point:  What if the confession was coerced?  What if a suspect is tortured into confession?  Especially with DHS labeling domestic terror suspects as anyone not on board with the program, that gives the FedGov the power to kidnap, detain, torture anyone. 

    At the point of conflict, I know why we torture.  We inflict harm on another person because someone from a position of authority tells us to.  Whether it's someone wearing more stripes than you in the military, or even just someone wearing a white lab coat and holding a clipboard, we torture because we want to be told that we're doing a good job.  It does have something to do with power, but not in the way you might think.  We don't derive power from the act of torture.  The power flows from top down. 

    Stanley Milgram, a social psychologist while at Yale conducted an experiment about torture, and obedience to authority.  It's called the Milgram experiment.  It involves administering electric shocks on people.  The result was that 65% of the people shocked the test subject with 450 volts of electricity.  (Note:  No one was actually shocked in the experiment)

    What I'm saying is that in an environment like the military, where obedience and discipline are characteristics highly commended, someone higer up tells you to pour water on the face on some poor bastard hanging upside down, you're gonna do it with zeal and gusto.  It's easy to figure out why Lyndie England or whatever her name is would point at that guys dingaling and give the thumbs up. 

    What I don't understand is why someone higher up decided that torture is a great idea.  I never questioned the implement of the idea.  That's the easy part.  I just don't get the reason, or the core of the idea, I guess. 
  • speaking_up said on Apr 22, 2009....
    Alienated, the word missing from my earlier post is intention...
     
    Does it not make any common sense to you that sin really is all about our intentions? 
     
    Since you don't seem all that bright, let's play multiple choice...which of these following folks, in your mind, is more likely than not to receive heaven's blessings:
     
    1.  A person tortures someone for information.  What we do not see is that he was given orders from above.  Inside, he does not relish in his task, and it haunts him for the rest of his life.  In his mind he does it for the sake of his country.
     
    2.  A person carries out torture upon one man 183 times in one month.  What we do not see within his mind is the satisfying thrill he gets in seeing this guy suffer in pain and anguish numerous times per day.
     
    3.  A person who holds a lot of power orders person #1 to carry out various methods of torture upon his enemies.  What we do not see within his mind, is that he gets stimulating thrills from his own thoughts as he conjures up the torture methodology.  He really believes he is free from God's judgment because he can order someone else to carry out these hideous torturous deeds.  .
     
    4. A woman who was abandoned by her lover and has little or no resources seeks to have an abortion.  What we do not see is this woman suffers greatly over her choice, and certainly does not wish nor intend any pain upon her fetus.  In getting the abortion she lives the rest of her life in emotional pain and loss while people (like you) spit in her face and damn her to hell for her actions.
     
    5.  A doctor, trained in medical procedures, expertly carries out the abortion for the woman.  What we don't see is the poverty and abuse inflicted upon children (that the doctor witnesses daily) by people who should never have carried their babies to term.  What we also do not see is his experience with those who decided to give their live babies up for adoption, but soon after roam the world with the fear and anxiety of knowing a part of them is out there, somewhere, maybe being abused in their minds...and those emotional turbulances finally bring them to medication and psychiatric wards. 
     
    6.  A person gets called for jury duty, it is a death penalty case.  He decides not to serve his country and bows out of the call.  What we do not see is he secretly wishes the guy suffering or death, but is a coward and cannot carry out the deed himself; so leaves it to another person to get his hands dirty.
     
    Alienated, if you did not pick the woman who had the abortion as one to be blessed, then I sincerely feel sorry for you and your future with God.
     
    "Judge not, lest ye (YOU) be judged."  "Take the plank out of your eye before you try to remove the sliver from your brother's eye."  Does any of this make real sense to you?  Or do you just use the bible to pound other people to damnation with?
     
    Furthermore, I wouldn't want to harm some of the above people for having wicked thoughts...it's not my job (and who knows why they are the way they are?).  However, if anyone is in charge of my country they bloody well better have good intentions along with their responsibilities - if the intentions are proven to be of malice, and not for the good of the country (as in this topic's case), then the consequences the people of the country have agreed are payable upon infractions of the law must be paid.  Or what good is law at all?
     
    You remind me of the reason I left the church.  It is filled with people just like you...who do not know the real difference between right and wrong and yet wear their churches and christianity like security blankets.  It is all in the intention, Jesus said.  You must have missed that day at Sunday School.  What you stand for is as unchristian as you can get, no matter what the name of your church or temple is.
     
    We even measure our laws and statutes with the term intention.  Wikapedia says, "In criminal law, mens rea – the Latin term for "guilty mind"[1] – is usually one of the necessary elements of a crime. The standard common law test of criminal liability is usually expressed in the Latin phrase, actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea, which means that "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind is also guilty".
     
    The woman who had the abortion does not have a guilty mind.  The people who stone her (like you) do.  Just like the people responsible for torturing a man 183 times in one month do. 
     
    Now the question is, should the person in charge, who knew what was going on in the torture chambers, be held accountable to the law of his country - or not?
     
     
  • speaking_up said on Apr 22, 2009....
    Grapekoolaid (nice name, I like it)...you are right.  You are not familiar with the gospel.
     
    As far as the torture goes you don't get it because you don't have that kind of a mind.  It's a good thing.
  • speaking_up said on Apr 22, 2009....
    I'm not about to go and get my dusty bible out from the basement and throw quotes out there like mud, but perhaps some other (real) Christians know specifically where Jesus spoke about Moses and his commandments, and challenged the old laws with, "but I say it is a sin if you indulge in thinking (about messing with your your brother's wife, killing your buddy, ecettera, ecettera...").  Pardon my 21st century language, but the meaning is exactly the same as what I remember coming from the mouth of Jesus.
  • bloc said on Apr 22, 2009....
    @sean

    Hey man, I've been thinking about your position about evidence and torture and there was something about it I couldn't quite put my finger on. Finally it came to me, and it's terribly ironic. You do realize you're making what is essentially a faith based argument. The exact kind you criticize in religion all the time. Funny isn't it ;)
  • bloc said on Apr 22, 2009....
    @sean

    Today we learned why they waterboarded him 183 times in a month. Not because they wanted the truth, but because they wanted to hear what they wanted to hear.

    "A former senior U.S. intelligence official familiar with the interrogation issue said that Cheney and former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld demanded that the interrogators find evidence of al Qaida-Iraq collaboration.

    "There were two reasons why these interrogations were so persistent, and why extreme methods were used," the former senior intelligence official said on condition of anonymity because of the issue's sensitivity.

    "The main one is that everyone was worried about some kind of follow-up attack (after 9/11). But for most of 2002 and into 2003, Cheney and Rumsfeld, especially, were also demanding proof of the links between al Qaida and Iraq that (former Iraqi exile leader Ahmed) Chalabi and others had told them were there."

    It was during this period that CIA interrogators waterboarded two alleged top al Qaida detainees repeatedly — Abu Zubaydah at least 83 times in August 2002 and Khalid Sheik Muhammed 183 times in March 2003 — according to a newly released Justice Department document." source

  • D6fer said on Apr 22, 2009....
    "There were two reasons why these interrogations were so persistent, and why extreme methods were used," the former senior intelligence official said on condition of anonymity because of the issue's sensitivity.

    This makes me suspicious......why should anyone believe any of this....since when does this issues sensitivity matter to the libs trying to expose something......why would this guy want to say anything if he couldn't say it all?
  • ALIENated said on Apr 22, 2009.... 
    
Didn't Jesus bring home the message that even THINKING about (insert sin 
of your choice) - is a sin.

Something like that. He was pointing out that no matter what you do, how
good you are, you are going to hell without believing in Him. There is no
way for us to work our way to heaven. Our very thoughts will betray us.
Belief in Him is the only way. Disbelief in the unforgivable sin.

Since I am not that bright (I only have a masters degree), I did not read
much else above. I figure it is the same old rationalizion that abortion is
not murder. Good luck with that. Imagine all the aborted babies piled in 
a big ditch, like they found the bodies of Jews at the end of WWII and
tell me our politicians are any better than Hitler. Since Roe Vs. Wade, I
wonder if the number of humans dead is more than the dead in WWII.
Probably so. Explain that to God when you see Him. Even Roe (not her
real name) has repented since that landmark trial. We all should repent.
Maybe then we would not be so comfortable with torture of any kind.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 23, 2009....

    Honestly at 183 waterboardings in a month I basically believe that someone was having fun.

    I'm willing to accept that my defense of torture is basically a faith based one.  Mostly because the facts make no sense.  I've yet to hear, even you claim you betray your nation under any circumstances. I don't understand why the others would.  As much national pride as I have I don't go as far as to think that Americans are somehow genetically better or better in some quasimagical way where the rest of the world is filled with dirty traitors so anxious to be Americans that they would betray their own brothers.  Why are they do you think?  Since basically your entire argument hinges on the fact that nobody is loyal to their nation or their familes worth a damn.  Which seems to be provable by facts but still it just flys int he face of reason.

    Oh Alien.  I"m sure that the number of aborted babies out paced WW2, probably does on every other year based on most of the data that I"ve read.  Again why aren't you against Invitro fertilzation?

    Since God isn't real I don't need to explain shit to him.  If God is real. . .shit look at this world.  he's got shit to explain to me.

  • ALIENated said on Apr 23, 2009.... 
    
If God is not real, I would say anything goes. Why even have this conversation
about war crimes? That is the liberal take on most everything -- there is no
God, live it up. Who cares about global warming or torture or anything? There
are no consequences. Do whatever you want. And why should I be against 
invitro fertilization again?
  • speaking_up said on Apr 23, 2009....

    LOL...Alienated, Invitro Fertilization is taking a man's sperm and a woman's egg...mixing them up together, and often freezing them until they put the embryo in the woman's womb.  It's all good.  Trouble you may find with these baby making method's is that only a fraction of embryo's produced in this manner survive. 

    One of the uproars going on right now is the so-called octoplet mom put six of the last of her embryos within her, knowing that the odds of any of them surviving was small.  Trouble is, some of her embryos split (twins), and all of the embryos survived.  Hence, one woman, eight little babies.  She lucked out.

    Are embryos babies waiting to happen?  If not, your argument for abortion goes down the toilet.  If they are (babies), millions of these little tykes are being killed daily.

  • bloc said on Apr 23, 2009....
    @speaking

    great example. Invitro is something that should be brought up every time someone like alienated talks about abortion. 

    The other effective argument I've found is to keep highlight that 4 cells the size of the period at the end of this sentence is not a human being. Claiming they are equivalent is self evidently absurd. 
  • D6fer said on Apr 23, 2009....
    The dems are lying about not knowing about all of this as it was happening.....there was something like 30 detailed briefings to Congress.....and Pelosi was there......they are digging their political graves the more they speak!
  • ALIENated said on Apr 23, 2009.... 
    
Wow, your power to rationalize murder is astounding. I am not stupid enough
to think semen is a baby, are you? However, the messiah (OhBummer) thinks
babies that are born during botched abortions can be left to die in a store
room. I suppose that is the same as semen hitting the sheets. God. You
people are incredible. This is a perfect example of liberal extremism. The
same kind of thinking got us where we are with the homosexual issues. Some
bright person decided that homosexuality is perfectly normal instead of 
being sinful perversion (the thinking for thousands of years). Now they are
out to destroy anything that might remind us what it really is. Liberals
cannot go to a rational point, they have to drag something to the extreme,
to the bottom of the pit. Here is an idea. Why not look at terrorists as the
product of a botched abortion. Then you can rationalize waterboarding 
them, murdering them, or whatever. Instead of terrorists, we should call
them botched fetuses. Feel better about it now? Rationalizing murder 
(abortion) is one of the main reasons we now have a culture of death
in this country. People born in the last couple of decades have got to
feel lucky that their parents did not "choose" to murder them before they
were even born. These two issues (abortion, homosexuality) are tearing 
our country (and maybe our world) apart. Waterboarding is not even on 
the radar compared to these issues.
  • bloc said on Apr 23, 2009....
    @d6
    I think you may be right about some of them. We need to find out. 
  • kelly said on Apr 23, 2009....
    "The dems are lying about not knowing about all of this as it was happening.....there was something like 30 detailed briefings to Congress.....and Pelosi was there......they are digging their political graves the more they speak!"


    Bring it on.  What you and the rest of the torture crowd don't realize is that people like bloc and myself are more interested in justice and rule of law than in political party affiliation.  I shouldn't speak for bloc but I'm pretty sure he might agree on this point.
  • speaking_up said on Apr 24, 2009....
    *sigh*...I got nothing.  Now we are suppose to go into discussion regarding your hate toward gays?  You are on your own, grasshopper.  Now, I need to go take that shower again.
  • D6fer said on Apr 24, 2009....
    kelly.....seems to me that if the President and Congress were on the same page with this, then what is there to prosecute? From what I have heard,  not only did the dems know about this, but many were quite enthusiastic about it.
  • ALIENated said on Apr 24, 2009.... 
    
Face it, everyone except bloc and kelly know this sort of thing goes on
in a war. The problem is, liberals do not know we are at war. They think
we can all hold hands and sing We Are The World and just get along. Did
this happen in WWII? Were there any who openly hated America more
than our enemies?

Hate toward homos? I do not hate homos. I hate the fact that they are
tearing this country apart in their quest to prove their lifestyle is normal.
If they want to be perverted, that is there business. When they try to
change the way we have done things for thousands of years, that is
my business. Plus, I do not think they should be judges of anything
(like the Miss USA Pageant) because they cannot keep their personal
views out of it. Miss California should sue the pageant and that homo
that caused her to lose.

Sorry, that is another post.
  • bloc said on Apr 24, 2009....
    @d6
    "seems to me that if the President and Congress were on the same page with this, then what is there to prosecute?"

    Isn't the answer to this obvious? Are we a nation of laws or not? Do laws not apply to politicians if they break them with bipartisan support? Is that really your argument?
  • kelly said on Apr 24, 2009....
    "From what I have heard,  not only did the dems know about this, but many were quite enthusiastic about it."

    Whatever.  Let the law judge them all.  I'm all for prosecuting anyone who conspired to torture prisoners.  They broke the law.  Rule of law and adherence to it is the only thing separating us from dictatorships.  It's tremendously frightening when I see how easily some would give that away.
  • ALIENated said on Apr 25, 2009.... 
    
Why are you twits so worried about our enemies? Why do you so easily
take the side of those who want to bury us? Our troops undergo 
waterboarding to prepare for being subjected to it, so it is not fatal,
but it is effective. This is why liberalism is so dangerous and so despised
by American patriots. Liberals hate George Bush so much they are 
willing to throw their own party members under the bus. They are so
desparate to prove that our news media did not blow all this way out
of proportion. It is too late for that. Liberal assholes on TV, like Keith
Olberman and Jon Stewart, show us every day how biased the media
is these days. We no longer believe much of anything they say. I am
more inclined to believe just the opposite of what they say is true.
The BO administration is much scarier than the Bush people ever were.
Borax is releasing just enough information to make his predecessors
look bad. If he was any kind of real leader, he would also release the
documents that prove the effectiveness of what was done. Tell me
again, how many people wound up dead because they were "tortured"
by Americans? And where is your proof? This is all political posturing
bordering on propaganda with the full assistance of the news media.
All this makes me more ashamed of America (or at least some who
claim to be Americans) than anything the Bush people have or have
not done. It is beyond me how anyone in the military could vote for
any Democrat considering how this bunch is trying to discredit those
who put everything on the line to protect them for almost a decade.
  • ALIENated said on Apr 25, 2009.... 
    
How about some real evidence of who is backing what ...
    http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=abortion+pictures 
    
Take a look through some of those sites and tell me which president is more
like Hitler.
  • kelly said on Apr 25, 2009....
    It's easy to tell when alien is feeling threatened.  The lies start coming fast and furious and he changes the subject.
  • ALIENated said on Apr 25, 2009.... 
    
Why should I feel threatened? I thought the subject was torture. I can more
easily back a party that tries to defend our country than one that allows the
atrosities I have pointed out above. You guys keep saying I can overlook 
anything Bush does (or did). I say you guys are overlooking something much, 
much worse, which makes the rest of us doubt your sincerity on any of this. 
How can you care what happens to a bunch of fuckers who hate us and try 
to kill us and overlook what the Democrat party backs with all its might -- 
murder of our most innocent citizens. It is like you are saying "I hate black 
paint" while you are painting everything black. And you do not even seem to
realize your hypocrisy. The Democrat party is the home of abortion, perversion,
environmental wackos, global warming nuts, on and on. So keep blathering 
about torture and we will keep pointing out your double standard and wondering
why you hate America and want to protect most every enemy it has.
  • ALIENated said on Apr 25, 2009.... 
    
And, it is easy to tell when bloc is threatened. His alter ego (Kelly) always
shows up. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 26, 2009....
    Because no balanced person thinks that a fetus is a baby ALIEN.  I've yet to hear you explain why you aren't against Invitro fertilization.  You should be at least twice as hard on that as you are on abortion.  If abortion is murder then invitro is genocide and you've yet to say one thing against it.
  • speaking_up said on Apr 26, 2009....
    @sean *bravo!* "If abortion is murder then invitro is genocide..."  Unfortunately, Alien thinks embryos are just sperm.  You can't fix stupid.
     
    *********************************************************
     
    @alien...you, with the master's degree, I cannot help but notice you use the language of a 12 year old in your posts.   Have some respect for the current administration at least by not name calling like a threatened child.
     
    That aside, I think you are less against the dems then you are against democracy as a whole.  If life ran your way people's rights would be kaput.  No relief for abandoned single mothers, no right to have sex the way one prefers in one's own bedroom, and every right to torture perceived enemies (remember, there is no trial and conviction before torture).  Sounds almost like a 3rd world situation where democracy does not exist at all.   Your type of attitude and anti-rights beliefs makes Saddam Hussein look like a regular republican white guy.
     
    To you, invading and occupying another country (Iraq) while dupping your own people into believing it was to prevent Iraq's WMD from falling hard on the chosen people (Americans) - was for the good of...what exactly?  Democracy?  Ha ha ha, bullshit.  There are numerous sources of the number of casualties since the invasion, but the facts prove thousands upon thousands of previously living and breathing Iraqi's (including civilian men, women and children) had a life and loved ones whose lives are now destroyed over this bizarre war:
     
    (google Iraqi deaths)
    Source Iraqi deaths March 2003 to... Iraq Family Health Survey 151,000 violent deaths. June 2006 Lancet survey 601,027 violent deaths out of 654,965 excess deaths. June 2006 Opinion Research Business survey 1,033,000 violent deaths as a result of the conflict. August 2007 Iraq Body Count 91,059 – 99,431 violent civilian deaths as a result of the conflict. February 2009

    Contrary to those reports, here is what American's are dealing with (google American Deaths):

    U.S. Confirmed Deaths
    Reported Deaths: 4278
    Confirmed Deaths: 4276
    Pending Confirmation: 2
    DoD Confirmation List

    I don't know, seems like overkill and a complete inbalance of power to me.  In addition, I read books smuggled out of the middle east written by women, and know that women in those countries are far more likely to be raped multiple times by foreigners (their foreigners, like americans), and if not killed themselves, are left to raise their families on their own as their husbands, brothers, and fathers are killed in the multitudes, or are (RIGHT NOW) lingering in make-shift hell-fire prisons, with no rights whatsoever.  I won't even get into the number of reported suicides by iraqi men, women and children.  And I am not talking about the suicide bombers.  I am talking about people who had families and a life...and now do not, and choose to leave this world because this one is just too cruel.

    I am ashamed to say that Americans have created a monster.  And yes, we are all guilty because we voted the bush administration into power, and then we all turned a blind quiet eye to his plan to invade this country for no reason other than to steal oil or make his daddy proud. 

    Alienated, you are not for democracy...nor was your president Bush.  Talking to you is like talking to a fundementalist muslim.  I see no difference whatsoever.  And your arguments for torture, against gays and against abortion...are simply pathetic and wholly unreasonable, not to mention, stupid.

    I would like to know what your thoughts would be if Iraqis needed our oil, and invaded america, and the country devastation, rape, and death results were reversed?  And imagine your double, your Iraqi twin, writing blogs back in the safety of his home to promote torture for these here americans because it is war, and all is fair in war.  Only, now it aint the brown foreigners being waterboarded, it is white people just like you, or your brother, or your son.

    Imagine...your sister's husband was killed in front of the children, she is raped, and left to raise 4 children on her own.  In fact, throughout your entire extended family of say, 50, not one is left permanently physically or emotionally damaged by the destruction brought on by another country who came to our doorstep for financial gain and/or power.

    Bring it home, Alienated...try to think that the cruelty going against Iraqis in the name of a war is happening to real people...people just like you and me.  We may have different cultures, but we all cry the same way.

  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 26, 2009....

    To be fair Saddam was a mad man and pretty much any country that wasn't involved in ethnic cleansing had not only a moral right but a responsibility to take him out.  With the hidden proviso of if you were completely sure that this situation would happen as a result.

    Basically I view a allowing a dictator to have a country where he is ethnically clensing or torturing AND to be a country like America or China or any truly major military power that could easily crush his army that its kinda like watching a woman being raped and walking away.  I mean she shouldn't have been walking in that alley with that outfit right?  Or lets stick with popular liberal one.  I punched a man in the face once.  Who am I to say that this rapist is a bad man?  I'm not perfect so lets leave him alone.

  • speaking_up said on Apr 26, 2009....
    I'm lost...
  • ALIENated said on Apr 26, 2009.... 
    
I cannot help but notice you use the language of a 12 year old in your posts. 

They say write at an eighth grade level. I figure sixth grade to be safe. And
please know that I am reading little more than that of what you said above.
So no need to direct your comments at me. You have already shown me 
your lack of intelligence.

I am not sure why I am supposed to have a problem with IVF. It is a process
that brings life into the world, not suck it out into little pieces.

In vitro fertilization (IVF) is a process by which egg cells are fertilized 
by sperm outside the womb, in vitro. IVF is a major treatment in infertility 
when other methods of assisted reproductive technology have failed. The 
process involves hormonally controlling the ovulatory process, removing ova 
(eggs) from the woman's ovaries and letting sperm fertilize them in a fluid 
medium. The fertilized egg (zygote) is then transferred to the patient's 
uterus with the intent to establish a successful pregnancy.

I am confused by your statements.
  • kelly said on Apr 26, 2009....
    "To be fair Saddam was a mad man and pretty much any country that wasn't involved in ethnic cleansing had not only a moral right but a responsibility to take him out"

    This doesn't fit with the rest of your philosophy.  You are generally in favor of hands off, as in the case in another post where there was some outrage about how Iran was going to gouge some man's eyes out as a punishment.  You counseled people to "just forget it."

    Also, you have plainly stated that the further away from you personally that someone is, the less they matter.  So, why the sudden interest in having Saddam removed?
  • GrapeKoolaid said on Apr 27, 2009....
    Need I remind you kind folks that the Clinton administration bombed Iraq just about every week for 8 years? 

    That he almost started a full-scale war with Russia over Bosnia? 

    Invasion of Iraq only had one purpose.  It was to invade and occupy Iraq.  It wasn't about Saddam. 
  • speaking_up said on Apr 27, 2009....
    How can you care what happens to a bunch of fuckers who hate us and try
    to kill us and overlook what the Democrat party backs with all its might --
    murder of our most innocent citizens.
     
    After all of the death and destruction since the Bush Administration invasion of Iraq, can you tell me (pre-invasion) which Iraqi tried to kill us?  Give me something to justify the abuse of power this administration is and was famous for.  And, if the purpose of the war was truly for a good cause, does it mean americans needed to be lied to?  Contempt and lack of respect for the people of this country, not to mention the entire freaking united nations, ruined the reputation of america throughout the world.  We were bold face lied to...and here you are, defending this dictatorship type behavior, and insinuating (whining) that gays and abortionists are taking over your little world.
     
    Your priorities are off...cowboy.
  • speaking_up said on Apr 27, 2009....
    Oh, and in answer to your question, I care about the 'bunch of fuckers' because I care about humanity.  And you don't care about these 'bunches of fuckers' in Iraq because....?
  • speaking_up said on Apr 27, 2009....
    I just cannot get over the veil of protection you use (Christianity) to support your causes.  Here, not only do you turn a blind eye to inhuman actions on the part of our country toward fellow human beings, you encourage others to not care as well.  You actually encourage others to hate!
     
    In your little world, God only loves while male republicans and will reward them with eternity in heaven for protecting gazillions of unborn souls (all the while tormenting, causing suffering, and promoting hate toward living and breathing children of God).  Not a nice reflection of your religion at all.  Reminds me of the madness of Islamic religions, where their righteousness gets them 100 little virgins upon entering paradice. 
     
    How does it feel to be a part of the madness?  Can you not see that there is no difference between your religion and any other religion with ridiculous ideals, finger-pointing sin slinging, and self-serving adamation for being the only 'saved ones' in the eyes of God or Allah.
     
    I sure don't want to know your God after gettting this little taste of you.  So if you are a poster child of your religion who wants to bring people to Jesus, I suspect you are failing Christ and the heavens miserably.  Muslims may not end up with their endless virgins upon death, and you may not end up sitting on the right side of God's throne (as your church predicts for Christians) for your efforts in selling hate.
     
    Attitudes like yours and other fanatical religions can only bring forth a self-inflicted internal hell upon yourselves.  Pain.  Anger.  Fear.  Suffering. 
     
    Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth...   
  • ALIENated said on Apr 27, 2009.... 
    
Can you not see that there is no difference between your religion and any other religion ...

Again you show your ignorance. I just heard an ex-Muslim lady on the radio saying
that the people of America need to wake up. She went on to say the underlying
goal of Islam (and Muslims) is to make America an Islamic country. She overheard
that kind of talk when she attended services. There are bad people in the world, 
and most of them are not Christians. Not to say there are no bad Christians. 
Christians spread a message of love and peace, which is usually misinterpreted by
secualar humanists, while religions like Islam advocate spreading their message by
violence and any means at their disposal. I can only think you are misinformed,
bipolar, or on drugs if you see it some other way. Take a look at Europe and see
what is about to happen here if people like you keep living in a fantasy land where
all religions are equal and no different.

And I do care about the people of Iraq. I do not care about Muslim extremist 
terrorists who fly airplanes into our buildings and kill thousands of innocent men,
women, and children. As I have said many times, Sodamn needed killing (to be
executed for his crimes) and we needed a base of operations in the heart of
terrorist land. 

Stop defending our enemies and wake up to reality. Take your meds, or whatever
it takes to clear your brain about what is coming. And stop listening to the
liberal propaganda that is flooding the airwaves and brainwashing our children in
liberal government schools. Wake up to reality or one day soon you will wake up
and be a Muslim or you will not wake up at all. Bad guys win when good guys do
nothing.

However, there may be nothing we can do at this point. Europe is turning Muslim
at this moment. Soon, once the whole world turns to Islam, all nations will move
against Israel to destroy it. The Bible calls it Armageddon. Only God can save Israel
then, and He will.
  • speaking_up said on Apr 28, 2009....
    Nice touch, the digs toward me needing medication...I'm glad to see you read my blogs.  However, please do not dismiss me because I also have issues against our so-called scientific community (doctors) and their need to push drugs like candy for babies.
     
    I also looked at your blogs, and am amazed you have the nerve to even call yourself a Christian, but I am not bringing up your other crap here.  Just this crap.
     
    "I just heard an ex-Muslim lady on the radio saying
    that the people of America need to wake up. She went on to say the underlying
    goal of Islam (and Muslims) is to make America an Islamic country. She overheard
    that kind of talk when she attended services."
     
    So?  What difference is this to the Christian message?  Has it not always been the Christian message to make every man, woman, and child a Christian?  What is the difference if a Muslim wants the same conversion of all to their religion?
     
    "As I have said many times, Sodamn needed killing (to be
    executed for his crimes) and we needed a base of operations in the heart of
    terrorist land."
     
    Fine, why was this not told to the americans in the first place?  Why the war and fear mongering propoganda to get troops into this middle eastern country which had nothing to do with the September 11th event?  It simply shows the bush administration is capable and willing to lie to americans and the world to get their goals met.   Personally, I need to trust my president. 
     
    "Europe is turning Muslim
    at this moment."
     
    Is this true?  If so, it sounds like people are making alternative choices to Christianity.  If Christianity is a desireable religion to follow, the people will follow.  If not, they will find some other God to worship.  I've said before you are certainly not a desirable person to follow if your God is what I'd get at the end of the day.  Your God is hateful toward certain peoples, has no understanding of different cultures or orientations, and picks and chooses his good children to come to heaven with him.  Your God sounds more like a human narcissist...whom also often pick out his (or her) least favorite kids to hurl abuse at.
     
    "Soon, once the whole world turns to Islam,"
     
    You have a lot of fear (I'm including your earlier posts re gays and abortions) and making decisions based on fear is never a good idea.  Zero tolerance was based on fear of drugs...and what do we have?  A society out of control on drugs.  Fact:  America is building 12 prisons every year - to one school.
     
    Wholly crap.  If what we are doing is not working toward achieving our goals, we need to try something else.  We have been wrong before (thinking owning and using slaves is a good idea, for one example), and we are wrong now.
     
    Back to Bloc's blog...torture has been proven to not work in securing good intelligence, so what is this torture really all about?  What other ideas can we come up with to protect our country and society? 
     
    To me, it all starts at home.  We need to clean our own houses out before we attempt to go in and clean someone else's home.
  • ALIENated said on Apr 28, 2009.... 
    
Yes, right, there is no difference in Christianity and Islam. Enjoy being
headless. I am beginning to think you already are. I was guessing at
the meds. I do not read your posts. You obviously have little to say
that is wise if you think Christianity is in the same ballpark with Islam.
When I see that paint company symbol with paint being poured on the 
globe, I think of Islam. Except it is black paint engulfing the globe. The 
last time I checked, Christian women were not treated as fourth class
slave citizens as are Muslim women. And forget about abortion and
homosexuality. Christians share the message of Jesus Christ and His
saving grace and then you decide what to do with that message. Islam
is a message of accept or they blow you to kingdom come. But feel
good that you are tolerant. They will NOT return the favor.
  • ALIENated said on Apr 28, 2009.... 
    
America is building 12 prisons every year - to one school.

I do not know whether that is true or false, but is sounds true enough. We are
aborting ourselves out of population enough to fill new schools. Some schools
are closing down, so I have heard. And considering the liberal bull crap that is 
being taught in our schools and the fact that God is no longer welcome in our 
schools, I can understand why we need more prisons. We are producing people 
with no sense of right and wrong, which also explains why BO and his pals got 
elected.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 28, 2009....

    1.  ALIEN now that you have looked up and clearly understand how IVF works you should understand why your basic stance demands that you are against it.  A zygote IS an embryo.  It is sperm that has already fertilized an egg.  The only difference is that it is a little smaller but all the peices are there.  At that point they take a few and insert them into the woman and destroy the rest.  Many times (particularly in women over thirty five) they insert multiples to increase the chances of it taking then abort back down if more than one or two take. 

    Octomom is the result of what happens when both ALL embryos are inserted instead of destroyed and the babies aren't aborted down to a sane number. 

    Again abortion is oops I made a mistake we can fix this.  Invitro creates lives INTENTIONALLY in order to choose one and destroy the rest.  Like I said if one is murder the other genocide. 

    2.  No.  The reason why we are building more prisons than anythign else is because people like you can't wrap their minds around the fact that locking people up doesn't fix them.  Nor does completely ostracizing them from any hope of a normal life afterwards.  A guy getting high should not be in jail. 

    3.   Also out of 6 million people Christians make up 2 billion.  That's right one out of three people on the planet is Christian.  Mathmatically I garantee there are more evil Christians than most if not all other religions.  I mean they kinda got the numbers game in their favor.  :-P  Hell I'd be willing to bet that there are more bad Christians than say there are Jews period (estimated 14 million)  MAybe I'll amuse myself and check the US prison population I bet we could get a fair way to the 14 million right here at home.  Just sayins all.

    4.  Kelly.  If you remember my early posts I've always said that Saddam should have been taken out.  And I don't deny that the farther someone is from me the less I care and the less they matter because they don't effect me as directly.

    This does not change the fact that if you can do something to help someone with relatively little risk or loss to yourself you should do it.  When it comes to Iran I do tell people to forget it.  We aren't going to invade and the basic attitude around the world is clearly that if you see a woman getting raped (or acid thrown on her face, or gouging a mans eyes out, or (attemped) execution for changing religions, or clensing out a section of your population) is that is his choice in life and we should respect that because well we've done naughty things in the past. 

    Since that is the majority stance we dont' really have a choice.  We just go with it.  Also there is a difference between what I would do as an individual and what I would do as President.  It's a damn shame we have the worlds biggest best funded military and mostly they sit at home practicing particularly when there is so much good that can be done.  Course I would completely reshape our military given a chance and several other things but that's an entirely different subject.

  • ALIENated said on Apr 28, 2009.... 
    
I was watching a squirrel in the yard this afternoon. I bet that squirrel
has more reasoning power than some of what I am hearing here. Bad
people are not Christians. They are bad people claiming to be Christians.
Muslims are not all bad, just the ones that really, really follow what their
bad book says. Jews may be under some old laws to do weird stuff, like
sacrafice goats, but Christians only have to love the Lord and spread
the gospel. You can accept it or not. Anyone who thinks Christianity
is anything like Islam is full of C -- R -- A -- P. Excuse my bluntness.
As far as IVF, I doubt that things are that far along for me to worry 
about that. We need to stop killing babies that could live on their own
and then we can worry about zygotes. It is amazing how liberals 
hate black and white answers unless it is something they are for or
against. It just amazes me that the reasonable, intelligent people
that belong to the Democrat party have let it be hijacked by homos,
murderers, socialists, and people who generally hate America.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 29, 2009....

    If you'd agree to stop trying to take away the right to eliminate the zygotes people would be a lot more willing to negotiate on saving babies that can live on their own.  We've already been down this road, the only reason you even bring up a subject that happens less that one tenth of one percent is because you know what it is.  It's landfall.  Once you've got that then the rest of it collapses in an instant and we're back to condoms being taken away.  And you can say whatever you want about tha twould never happen.  Cept it wasn't that long ago (less than one hundred days infact) that the US overturned its policy on funding AIDS prevention that includes condoms.

    ALL religions are the same.  Islam by the book is actually LESS violent than Christians by the Bible.  Solely because if they follow the book exactly Christians and Jews and all other Abrahamic faiths are considered Brothers of the book and are to be treated with respect.  Christians have no such proviso nor do Jews (though to be fair there is nothing in the Bible truly defining Christians apart from Jews. 

    Oh.  The reasonable Dems like the homos, figure better our murders than yours, know that the socialists will never suceed and the five who hate America are so outnumbered is't no big.

  • bloc said on Apr 29, 2009....
    All religions aren't the same. What you are really saying is that all of the monotheistic religions are virtually the same. 
  • speaking_up said on Apr 29, 2009....
    Yes.  And, for Alienated...(because he likes things in the 6th to 8th grade level)...
     
    Wikapedia for Monotheism...

    In theology, monotheism (from Greek μόνος "only" and θεός "god") is the belief that only one god exists.[1] The concept of "monotheism" tends to be dominated by the concept of God in the Abrahamic religions, such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and the Platonic concept of God as put forward by Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite.

    Notice how monotheism puts your religious beliefs in the same sentence with Judaism and Islamic ones?  This one common denominator (one God) brings you closer to an orthodox jew and allah fundementalist than you seem to understand or realize.  Maybe if you learned more about the other religions you could see this.  Maybe if you opened your heart to what other people experience, live, and believe, you wouldn't be so closed, judgemental, and damning.

    I find religions that kill off (in thought or deed) non-believers (all in the name of their beloved God), ludicrous.  Sadly, (because I happen to be a close follower of the spiritual keys Jesus Christ taught) this includes the religion of Christianity.  I need to add that not all Christians, not all Jews, and not all Islamic followers dismiss fellow human souls as damned to hell for not believing in their God.  But the overall "My God is real your God is not" blind faith followers have a lot of internal work to do for their own souls, in my humble view.

    In fact, people who 'naturally' prefer not to judge, who find more pleasure in giving than taking, who take a few moments to say a kind word, and/or who peacefully go about good works for the better of all of us, are truly good souls.

    My own son, who passed away in 2003 in a car accident (and went to hell according to a 7th Day Adventist pastor, because he never did ask Christ to be his savior) was one of those 'naturally good souls.'  There are millions of good people out there!  Bloc, your efforts and cause are to be admired and I really appreciated this thread.  And thanks to the beautiful souls (Christian and otherwise) who have private messaged me after some of my comments.    

    As the thread dies down now I'll go back to my passion about mental health and how we must put a stop to using using and abusing psychiatric (brain) medication to fix our woes; and my other favorite topic on raising better than spoiled rotton rat-bastard children.  We really do need to learn to use our own God-given power to change our own circumstances - from within.  Let's take personal responsibility for our own actions and thoughts toward others.  And let's say no to torturing anyone, for any reason.

    and... 

    "If you are going through hell, keep going."  Winston Churchill.

     

     

  • ALIENated said on Apr 29, 2009.... 
    
Squirrels. Eat your nuts. That you know about. Say no to abortion and eventually
someone might care about saying no to pouring water in the faces of terrorists.
We cannot support a culture of death and expect anyone from anywhere to
respect us whether waterboarding is part of the equation or not.

And to get back to my point, you cannot condemn Bush without condemning the
congress (House and Senate). Even the messiah (Borax) knows that. That is why
he would rather move on. He only released what he released to sedate the rabid
liberals who cannot stop chewing their bone. He has to fear his own future 
examination. For what he is likely to do, he would probably end up like Sodamn
Hussein.
  • mOOn_platOOn said on Apr 29, 2009....

    O

    He can't even get my alts straight. much less predict the future. Shrill is always annoying.

    O

  • ALIENated said on Apr 30, 2009.... 
    
Thanks ... Professor.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 30, 2009....
    To be fair bloc there is little reason to discuss the non-monothestic religions.  The two main Abrahamic religions make up 50% of the worlds population.  To me saying Hindus are different is a little like trying to going to a Sci-Fi convention and saying Look Battle STar Galatica doesn't have FTL travel!  Who cares.  Star Wars, Star Trek.  End discussion.
  • bloc said on Apr 30, 2009....
    There are billions of people who do not believe in a monotheistic religion. Can you show me the stats you are quoting? 
  • speaking_up said on Apr 30, 2009....
     
    Wait a minute...!?!
     
    In reviewing the above posts, something jumped out at me like a knat on a hiking trail...
     
     
    "For what he is likely to do (Obama), he would probably end up like Sodamn Hussein."  Alien
     
     
    I am curious, and maybe you would like to explain what you mean with your projection?
  • mOOn_platOOn said on Apr 30, 2009....

    O

    ...Oh, you neophyte. Don't encourage him...

    O

     

  • ALIENated said on Apr 30, 2009.... 
    
He (BHO) has to fear his own future examination.

BHO does not want to examine what Bush did too closely because he
knows he will eventually be examined, someday. He is likely to do things
so much worse than anything Bush did that he could end up hung out
to dry. All presidents are aware that as they judge, so will they be
judged ... eventually.

Pry your panties out of your crack. I am not a terrorist just because 
the BHO administration has redefined that term. Our enemies are still
the same ones we have always had. The McVeys of the world are few
and far between.

BHO and his bunch are the ones out to undermine the American way of
life, capitalism, Christianity, etc. BHO was raised a Muslim, and I am not
convinced he is anything other than that now. For all we know, he
was a long term project backed by radical Muslims. I can only pray
that I am wrong.
  • kelly said on Apr 30, 2009....
    "Yes.  And, for Alienated...(because he likes things in the 6th to 8th grade level)..."

    Well, I don't know.  I think you should have dumbed it down a bit.
  • kelly said on Apr 30, 2009....
    "This does not change the fact that if you can do something to help someone with relatively little risk or loss to yourself you should do it.  When it comes to Iran I do tell people to forget it."

    That doesn't jibe, Sean.  Iraq has cost us dearly and left that nation in an arguably worse condition.  And why not invade Iran?  It seems equally plausible to invading Iraq.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 30, 2009....

    1.  Bloc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_religion A quick trip to wikipedia estimates that there are between 1.9 and  2.1 Christians world wide.  I'm using 2 for ease of math.  It estimates Islam between 1 and 1.3.  I'll use one.  That makes 3 billion (and almost definitely a little bit over 3 bills.  On a planet with an estimated 6 billion people that makes half of them together.

    2.  ALIEN.  HE WAS NOT RAISED MUSLIM.  I swear calm the fuck down.

    3.  Kelly.  We didn't know that Iraq was going to cause us this much trouble.  It shouldn't have.  Saddam was a boy with a stick.  To go back to my analogy of watching a woman get raped when you could stop the guy.  This is the equivalent of that guy turning out to be a zombie instead.  How the hell were you supposed to know? 

    Iran doesn't seem to be ethnically clensing though.  But more to the point we've got our hands full at this exact moment and can't really afford to take on more.  And personally I would have either taken Saddam out in 98 when he first broke the treaty and kicked out inspectors or he could have waited until after Afghanistan.  Do one thing at time and do it well.

    But yeah just about every Islamic country is somewhere on the list.  Though with Mexican Drug Cartels starting to behead people and all the problems in Columbia plus my proximity rule I'd personally vote we let the Middle East rot and figure out what the fuck we can do to fix our immediate neighbors. 

    Note:  While I have absolutely no problem with conquering a nation old school, adding them to the empire, force feeding our values into them and spreading civilization the efficient way.  If we can fix things without violence that is and should always remain the first choice.

  • bloc said on May 01, 2009....
    @sean
    I was just curious about the numbers which are interesting. But, I still don't understand why you never account for these other major religions.
  • SeanRenaud said on May 01, 2009....

    Because I honestly don't see how they matter much.  I don't hear much about radical Hindus doing much of anything.  Granted I'm not Indian to know how thoroughly it infects their politics but I never hear about beheadings, or stem cell research being held back or really anything at all.  And again when literally half the game is being played by a few groups it seems silly to me to really talk about the other guys.

    I mean in this country we have more than two political parties. . . but do we waste time discussing the others?  Not really

  • speaking_up said on May 01, 2009....
     
    @Moon...I wasn't familiar with the word, maybe I am just plain tired...
     
    neophyte (plural neophytes)
    1. A beginner.
    2. A novice (recent convert), a new convert or proselyte.
    3. (Christianity) A name given by the early Christians, and still given by the Roman Catholics, to those who have recently embraced the Christian faith, and been admitted to baptism, especially those converts from heathenism or Judaism.
    4. (biology) A plant species recently introduced to an area (in contrast to archaeophyte, a long-established introduced species).

    Naw, I know Alien very well...no beginner here.  He is a cookie cutter sample of all the other right-wing fundementalist Christians who are easily trained and led by their sunday school teachers.  In other words, no mind of their own, just the same old same old bullshit from repeated down hysterical dogma.  The KKK were (are) a group of similar minded folks who believe in one race, one color, one religion, one sexual orientation, black and white, blah blah and ecettera, ecettera.  Hitler was another one.  Oh, and SH too.  Alien is in good company, don't you think?   

    Historically, attitudes like Alien's are recipes for disaster - and no one is safe from their paranoid and psychotic thinking.   I fear extreme right-wing Christians as much as I fear extreme Allah followers who terrorize in the name of their lord in hopes for their 100 little virgins upon death.  There is no difference in the two in-so-much that they are both full of ego and no soul.  If it were not so sad, It is almost comical to watch them go at each other the way they do.

    Anyway, thanks for the new word *smiles*

     

    @sean "If we can fix things without violence that is and should always remain the first choice."

    *applause*

     

    @Kelly LOL, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt because he is the one who said he was taught to write at the 8th grade level, but Alien thinks it best to write at the 6th grade.  Actually, when I read his posts I wonder if I am dealing with an 8 year old boy.

     

    @Alien "The McVeys of the world are few
    and far between."

    wtf?


     

  • bloc said on May 01, 2009....
    @sean
    the only reason I bring them up is that you make generalized statements about religion, which are negative, and only really applies to the monotheistic ones. Also, over a billion people are hindu and buddhist. That's a very large number.
  • ALIENated said on May 01, 2009.... 
    
@speaking_up -- KMA.
  • SeanRenaud said on May 02, 2009....

    Fair enough.  I should at least acknowledge that there are other religious out there.  But you had to combine two religions to catch up to Islam.  And Islam has to double to catch up to Christianity. 

    I feel safe saying Americans are overweight.  It's not true only 66% of us are.  Of the remaining 33% some are actually underweight!  We don't have a McDonalds problem!!!!!!!  Just seems like one of those times when I should be able to make blanket statements.

  • kelly said on May 02, 2009....
    "While I have absolutely no problem with conquering a nation old school, adding them to the empire, force feeding our values into them and spreading civilization the efficient way. "

    That's pretty funny!  Spreading civilization indeed....
  • bloc said on May 02, 2009....
    Here take these small pox blankets with a dash of civilization ;)
  • D6fer said on May 03, 2009....
    bloc....there was no evidence of actual germ warfare by the Americans against the Indians....only evidence of talk about the possibility of using it, and I believe it was the Brits during the French and Indian war.
  • SeanRenaud said on May 03, 2009....

    It's not like the Indians didn't spread syphilis right back.  :-P

    But that's hardly the actual point.  Unless someone is going to make the point that Egypt, Greece, Rome, Persia, China and Britian didn't vastly hasten the spread of modern science around the world then I don't see you having a leg to stand on. 

  • speaking_up said on May 03, 2009....
    @Sean...

    I feel safe saying Americans are overweight.  It's not true only 66% of us are.  Of the remaining 33% some are actually underweight!  We don't have a McDonalds problem!!!!!!!  Just seems like one of those times when I should be able to make blanket statements.

    Not sure where this came from, but I must agree about the fast food part of your statement.  I learned by mistake the the fast food industry is making north amercia (and now the world) fat.  I made a decision one day about 5 years ago to end all fast food (something about the puss coming out of the pimple faced guy at the window).  Anyway, much to my surprise, I lost an immediate 20 lbs!!! 

    Since then I learned that MSG is an ingredient used by most if not all fast food establishments and processed grocery foods, and therein lies our problem.  MSG is the biggest fat builder we can find.  It tastes good, it's in our seasoned peanuts and other salty fav's...it's in our processed food we buy at the grocery such as frozen dinners of all kinds...it's everywhere! 

    In 2007 I got my belly pierced cause it all looks so good!  And no effort at all.  I can still eat my bag of lays potato chips, salty pumpkin seeds, and anything else I want.  I enjoy a big fatty piece of steak or pork, sour creme all over my baked potato, the works!  I just stay away from the 'fake' flavor' foods and narry a weight problem since.

    So, with your 'out in left field' statement, maybe I've had a chance to help spread the word.

    Check for Monosodium Glutamate (Glut - a - mate) on all food and lose weight instantly.  

  • speaking_up said on May 03, 2009....
    @all...
     
    Spreading some more joy...if this doesn't make you tingle and smile, nothing will!
     
     
  • kelly said on May 09, 2009....
    "But that's hardly the actual point.  Unless someone is going to make the point that Egypt, Greece, Rome, Persia, China and Britian didn't vastly hasten the spread of modern science around the world then I don't see you having a leg to stand on. "

    The spreading of science was a side effect.  The main effect was spreading pain.
  • SeanRenaud said on May 09, 2009....
    We seem to still be feeling the effects of the side effect and it seems to have been more beneficial than the main effect was bad.
  • kelly said on May 09, 2009....
    Yes, that's always easy for someone to say who didn't have to feel the pain of invasion.  For people with zero feeling or empathy it would be a logical conclusion.
  • SeanRenaud said on May 09, 2009....
    Or simply for someone who is logical.  As decendent of a slave I live a life thousands of times better than the decendents of the majority of free Africans.  Besides their didn't HAVE to be an invasion.  Look you're better than me, I can either surrender peacefully (and often even get to keep my title) OR I can force you to kill me. 
  • speaking_up said on May 10, 2009....
    Sean...LOL
  • GrapeKoolaid said on May 14, 2009....
    speaking of things making you tingle (or at least shift uncomfortably)...

    Here's a lovely article. 

    All of a sudden, water boarding doesn't seem to be too bad.  Apparently, it's like a combination of shower/going for a little dip. 
  • speaking_up said on May 14, 2009....
    @grapekoolaid...thank you for your excellent reporting.  I found the article sickening, but not surprising.  I've seen too many similar reports. 
     
    This comment following the article that caught my attention:
     
    Why isn't this all over the "News"? They are pathetic. Over at CNN on their "Political Ticker" the first story is "Obama bumped his head". What's next Michelle broke a nail?
     

    The fact is, what most americans do not realize, is that WE DO NOT GET THE NEWS, BUT THE REST OF THE WORLD DOES.  We have edited news, more so than even communist Cuba.

    It pays to travel internationally (the best part of travel is you can sit back in a hotel room and finally see some real news about america, and what is really going on with our country, and the rest of the world!).

    I recently realized that CNN American news I saw in Greece (I think it was Greece, it was right after the second election), must NOT have been shown in america!  It was an event where bush was drunker than a skunk on Larry King Live.  Since I have come home NO ONE can recall the event!  It happened, I saw it.  But I saw it in another country.  The channel was CNN, the show was LKL.  I didn't imagine this.

    I now have satalite t.v.  Wouldn't have it any other way.  Cable is protected and not real news.  It is filtered so much that it is no small wonder we are an ignorant culture.

    Ignorance breeds contempt.  Contempt breeds torture.

     

  • ALIENated said on May 15, 2009.... 
    
It was an event where bush was drunker than a skunk on Larry King Live.  
Since I have come home NO ONE can recall the event!  It happened, I saw 
it.  But I saw it in another country.  The channel was CNN, the show was 
LKL.  I didn't imagine this.

Right ... right. Or maybe the one who was drunk was you. Were Larry and
Bush about three feet tall and kind of green? And were they on a spaceship?
  • SeanRenaud said on May 15, 2009....
    I'm sure Bush got trashed at some point.  Who cares.  It didn't make the news here because no matter how far Left the media is claimed to be they have some measure of respect for our leaders.
  • speaking_up said on May 16, 2009....
    @sean, that's exactly what I believe the reason was. 
  • SeanRenaud said on May 16, 2009....

    They love a good scandal but Bush drunk isn't a scandal.  It's simple fun and there was no point in it.  Other media carried it because they hate the US and had an opportunity to embarass us.  It wasn't good reporting, it was tabloid trash, no more relevant than knowing who Britney Spears had a threesome with last night.

    I'll also add it was probably covered in the US.  It just got a minor blurb, it's not like with the internet anything gets reported ANY where and doesn't get reported everywhere.

  • speaking_up said on May 16, 2009....
    @sean, have you got a personality disorder of some magnitude, or are you just a freak of nature?  At the same moment you reply (somewhat) kindly in this post, you said this to me in another post about war, crimes and torture...
     
    My Post:  The stats are, less than 4% of all crimes (ALL CRIMES) result in a conviction.  Well, this was back in 1988 when I studied criminal law so I admit the figures could have changed since.  Have criminal convictions to crimes improved since then?  I don't think so.  Crimes are not just performed by the obvious bushy haired boogy man...sometimes they wear nice white shirts with blue striped ties.
     
    My point is, we have to leave the possibility open that political beings lie, commit crimes, abuse the power we have afforded them.
     
    It's just a little harder to recognize the white collar criminal mind with the responsible positions they enjoy.
  • speaking_up said on May 16, 2009....
    Your response:
     
    "Holy shit the brain dead retarded cunt got something right!!!!!!  Congratulations you must have visited the Wizard and got a brain."
     
    Do us both a favor and fuck off.
  • SeanRenaud said on May 16, 2009....

    You first.

     

  • stopmediabias said on May 20, 2009....

    Something just dawned on me.  Why didn't bloc title this post: "Torture beyond a reasonable doubt." ?

    He used "war crimes."

    Bloc are you softening on this issue? :>

    We can certainly prove people are guilty of war crimes with Abu Ghraib but not actual torture.

  • speaking_up said on May 20, 2009....
    I think bloc abandoned his post.
  • SeanRenaud said on May 20, 2009....
    I would rank war crimes higher than torture myself.  War Crimes don't mean shit until you turn them over to the world court

Comment on "War Crimes beyond a reasonable doubt"


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