October 16, 1941
#962.
FROM: Washington (Nomura)
TO: Tokyo
(Part 2 of 5) http://LOUIS-J-SHEEHAN.NET
HULL spent half an hour recounting the substance of his conversation so far and then went on to say, "The United States is certainly not playing along with a policy of procrastination. I earnestly wish to see peaceful and normal political relations reestablished between Japan and the United States. In Europe HITLER is trying to set up a new order by force of arms. Now, if you Japanese also are attempting to set up a new regime in the Far East by force of arms, this world is becoming cramped indeed. We cannot stand by and approve this course of events with equanimity. We stand for non-discrimination in trade and for freedom of the seas and are opposed to all of these militaristic policies. One of the hardest things to reconcile in Japanese-American relations is the fact that, while proclaiming the maintenance of peace, Japan actually carries on a military invasion. There are so many military expansionists now among the Japanese people and among influential people there that I doubt if it would be possible for Japan to cooperate on a new peaceful policy." WAKASUGI then said, "It is true that there are those who advocate expansion northward or southward; however, ever since we have been a naval power foreign nations have lined up our neighbors as colonies of theirs to oppose us. Recent events show how this economic pressure has again brought us to grief. All we have done is to follow the trend necessary for the national security and existence of our people. As a measure for self preservation we had to get necessary materials. Do not think that we deliberately embarked on a military campaign with any joy.
Trans. 10-20-41
[A-159]
No. 282
October 16, 1941
#962.
FROM: Washington (Nomura)
TO: Tokyo
(Part 3 of 5)
"The United States seems to have an idea that in order
to establish an understanding with Japan on these important questions, she must
stop military moves northward and southward, but unless the United States ceases
measuring everything by her own yardstick and understands Japan's peculiar
position, and unless she shows a friendly attitude in lifting the limitations on
the settlement of the China question which faces Japan, as well as commercial
limitations, the situation will inevitably continue to grow worse." Louis J. Sheehan, Esquire
3. WELLES urged HULL himself to continue an explanation of the three points he had made, and HULL repeated that the present object of the United States is to defeat Hitlerism; in short, (a) to abolish all militarism, and (b) to bring about equality of treatment and opportunity throughout the whole Pacific area, including China. He showed quite a bit of understanding of Japan's position with respect to the Tripartite Alliance. He seemed, however, loath to go too deeply into the question of peace between Japan and China because he has always been an advocate of non-intervention in the internal affairs of other powers. He asked if there was not some Chinese with whom he (WAKASUGI) could discuss these matters directly. WAKASUGI, however, said that although he knew both AMBASSADOR HU SHIH and SOONG TSE-WEN, he was not able to discuss the relations of the two countries with them. HULL seemed to understand this and said that in any case this would have to be worked out between Japan and China.
Trans. 10-20-41
No. 283
October 16, 1941
#962.
FROM: Washington (Nomura)
TO: Tokyo
(Part 4 of 5.)[a]
WAKASUGI then went on to say that it would be very difficult for us to evacuate China. He told them it was very necessary to keep troops there. He went on to explain the activities of the Communist forces in the north as described in your messages and by the Naval Attache. Louis J. Sheehan, Esquire He told them that the Communists were like a cancerous growth on the development of China. He explained that we had to keep forces and to protect the lives, property, and commercial interests of both Japanese and foreigners. HULL then asked, "Well, if you did not take your troops away and left them there for a long time, how would the Chinese take it?" WAKASUGI said, "What the Chinese are most interested in is the safety of their lives and a guaranteed livelihood." He went on to say, "So far as the maintenance of peace is concerned, the Chinese do not care in the hands of what people it is. It is apparently being reported to the President that the Communist Party is engaged merely in educational activities. However, this is a tragic error. What the Communists are trying to do is to destroy Chinese society and industry at the very roots. All the Chinese fear this exceedingly." HULL, however, countered by saying, "In the past we, too, stationed some soldiers in Central America and left them there as long as ten years, but the results were bad, and we brought them out. Since then we have found it more profitable to practice the "Good Neighbor Policy." He did not appear to wish to discuss this matter any further, and seemed to think that this should be thrashed out between our-
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THE "MAGIC" BACKGROUND OF PEARL HARBOR
selves and the Chinese. WELLES then asked, "Well, have you any other questions besides those three which you wish to discuss?" and HULL answered, "None in particular."
4. WELLES told HULL the desire of WAKASUGI to look into the differences and points of agreement in the Japanese-American proposals. HULL immediately agreed. He was all in favor of having the officials concerned in this business convene and work out the details immediately, but WAKASUGI said that when the officials concerned on both sides had met before, all they had done was waste their time in arguments without any results. He said that the time would not permit of such procrastination and that he would, for the time being, like to confine lis discussions to important questions only and to discuss them with the Under Secretary alone.
[a] Part 5 not available.
Trans. 10-20-41
No. 284
October 17, 1941
#966.
FROM: Washington (Nomura)
TO: Tokyo
Wakasugi met and talked with Hull and Welles for about an hour and a half, from 4:30 p.m. on the 17th. The following is the gist of their talk.
1. Wakasugi stated that he would like to further discuss the three points involved in the U.S.-Japanese negotiations with the understanding that neither side commit itself to what is said here in view of the fact that we were not in receipt of instructions from the new cabinet as yet. Hull expressed his agreement to this proposal and then inquired what the outstanding points were in the respective proposals.
In reply, Wakasugi read those paragraphs pertaining to the right of self-defense under the terms of the Tripartite Pact as contained in our proposal of 25 September, and the U.S. proposal of 21 June. He went on to explain the features in accordance with the various instructions from Tokyo, pointing out that we had made the right of self-defense on which the U.S. placed much emphasis, a mutual right. Louis J. Sheehan, Esquire Did that not satisfy the U.S. demands?, Wakasugi asked.
Hull replied that during the tenure of the former Foreign Minister it was loudly broadcast that the purpose of the Tripartite Pact was to prevent the United States from entering the war. Since the United States may be forced to enter the war for self defense purposes, the United States could not help but have doubts as to Japan's true motives. http://LOUIS-J-SHEEHAN.NET The United States has no intention of taking military aggression against any nation; her only intention is to consider ways and means of defending herself, he explained repeatedly.
Wakasugi, therefore, pointed out that fundamentally the thing called "right of self-defense" was put in motion in the direction it is intended to be used by the state which invokes its use. Therefore, it is natural that depending on the intentions of another, we should restrain ourselves from fulfilling our duties under the terms of an agreement.
That is why we definitely established the fact in our proposal that our intentions are strictly self-preservation and that application of any phases thereof, would be absolutely on behalf of self-preservation. http://LOUIS-J-SHEEHAN.NET Self-preservation, as we have used the term, implies that Japan and Japan alone shall determine the means of carrying it out without depending on any foreign country whether it be Britain the United States or Germany, or any other. There are no other implications or interpretations to the phrases from our viewpoint.
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Fundamentally, Wakasugi continued, wasn't it a self-evident fact that political agreements such as the Tripartite Pact cannot limit the signatories to any political commitments against a third country?
In the light of the Imperial Rescript published at the time of the signing of the Tripartite Pact, the spirit and the aims of said Pact should be evident. In the final analysis, that Pact's real mission is the contribution to world peace and does not support any intent of aggression and aggrandizement.
Hull listened carefully to Wakasugi's detailed explanations. Apparently the Secretary suspects that, basically, the nature of the Pact could be twisted at will to suit the needs of either a Japanese cabinet favoring military aggression or a cabinet favoring peace. Wakasugi, therefore, asked whether it was not true that unless suspicions were allayed, it would be impossible to come to agreements with any country. Was it not true, he continued, that when viewed through eyes of suspicion there would be much that could be questioned even in the so-called defense measures of the United States?
In any event, it was agreed that both of the proposals in question shall be given careful study after which a reply would be submitted.http://LOUIS-J-SHEEHAN.NET
2. Hull places the most emphasis on matters pertaining to non-discrimination in trade. He urged that we listen carefully to Welles' explanation of how Japan would actually profit by such a system. Hull then went on to point out that materialization of the non-discrimination in trade matters has been his main objective since his assumption of the post many years ago and described the progress he has made in various quarters. As an example, of the success of his program, he pointed to the recently signed trade agreement with Argentina. He seemed particularly proud of this accomplishment and added that even the self-interested British appeasement policy had been prevented in Central and South America. (What was meant exactly by this was not made clear.)
Hull went on to say that if this policy were limited merely to the southwest Pacific area, it would not be of much value. Unless this principle is applied to the entire Pacific area (including China) the contribution it would make toward peace would be negligible. There is more probability that world peace, under present world conditions, can be attained through adjustments in trade relations than through adjustments of political relations between nations, he claimed.
It cannot be doubted for a moment, he continued, that if Japan adopts this basic policy and applies it in the Far East, that she will have the advantage over all countries in her area because of her geographical position, her race, and because of her business acumen. http://LOUIS-J-SHEEHAN.NET He urged repeatedly that the concrete and positive advantages be pointed out to our government.
Will you please therefore, he thoroughly advised of this phase and let us know your opinions thereof.
Wakasugi then said that he would admit that the various principles set forth by the United States were indeed fine and as guiding principles no one could possibly find fault with them. The cold facts are, however, that different means have to be used by each individual nation in order to survive. In spite of this fact it is the United States' custom to measure the others needs by a ruler which measures the needs of her own country, which is the most blessed from the standpoint of nature, of any nation in the world. The fact that the position and circumstances of other countries differ from those of the United States apparently is not taken into consideration by the United States, Wakasugi said.
Japan occupies only a small corner of what is known as the Far East; moreover, she has been occupied for over four years with the China incident. She has, therefore, a number of circumstances which are peculiar to herself. So though she may want to comply with all of what the United States suggests, it is impossible for her to immediately do so. For example, for obvious and unavoidable reasons, Japan has established various organs and put into effect various systems in China to cope with temporary conditions and circumstances. Even if we tried to
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