• uniquely-ironic said on Apr 06, 2009....

  I don't use a register or checks either.  I do keep track of how much goes in and what is going out.  I don't think everyone manages money the same way.  I do think that if those girls get tired of paying bank fees they should consider putting in some "buffer" money and not spending it.

• starchini said on Apr 06, 2009....

  How do you keep track of how much is going in and out if you dont record it?  How do you pay your bills?  I just dont understand it.  Im sure you have reasoning behind your method.  The thing with those girls is that they have no idea what is in their account at any time.  They just mindlessly swipe their card, tossing reciepts in the garbage and thinking "hmm...i put 500 in and spent, oh i dont 300 there and 12 dollars there and went to eat a few times,  umm...i think i can buy a tank of gas, yup it took my card, sweet"  and a week later they deposit another 500 and the bank tells them 200 of it was taken for overdraft fees...and the girls have no idea why and are pissed at the bank.  Yea i figure everyone handles their money differently but i also figured everyone has some sort of "system" atleast similar to what i do...somewhat atelast...

   

• evil_twin said on Apr 06, 2009....

  I used to be a little more like you, but I was definitely never that organized. I did used to save receipts and keep a register, but after awhile I had a mountain of 50 receipts and was too lazy to ever write it down. So I gave up on that, and now I just check my bank account online every few days, so I always know roughly how much money is in there. And I pay all my bills online too, so my bank automatically tells me what's left after I paid everything. I write nothing down and have only gotten in trouble with an overdraft once in the last several years, so I guess my non-system system works okay for me :-P
  
  -evil_twin LA
  

• uniquely-ironic said on Apr 06, 2009....

  Nope! not everyone does it the way you do.  I know how much goes in every week, I do go online to check that it made it.  Then I know how much I can spend and I keep a running tab in my head.  I will check the account frequently online just to make sure some miscellaneous thing didn't come out, but I also keep a set amount as buffer so that if something does come out that I hadn't planned for that I'm still okay.

• fragglesrock said on Apr 06, 2009....

  i'm a checkbook freak.  i balance mine regularly and i do keep track.  accidents still happen if i forget to write down a debit or something, but it's rare.  those girls make me want to cringe!!! it's sad that noone has taught them money management!!!

• starchini said on Apr 06, 2009....

  This amazes me evil.  Im glad it works for you.  I guess i just dont trust my bank to keep tabs on my money is all.  I get it from my momma im sure.  ive busted them in so many accounting errors in the past and have heard horror stories.  I mean, banks are human too and humans err...i figure id better not rely on them.  My bank is stricly for proof of payments made, they are simply the keepers : ) 
   
  uni- well okie dokie then,  i guess many people go online to see how much money the bank says youve got.  I just dont trust my memory or the bank that well uni.  I barely remember what i ate for lunch.  and these girls dont even check online.  Your system is by far superior to theirs. 
   
  hehe im with you 100% fraggles.  Im a freak about money management to.  Estimates and what not when it comes to my cash flow do not cut it.  Like you said, even with me being a freak i make mistakes sometimes too!  I cant imagine not keeping up with my balance or register or bank statement.  Im always glad i took the time to compare my statements with the banks cuz more often than not i usually have atleast one question or have to change somethin...

• dyingman said on Apr 06, 2009....

  When I ran the bills, I kept track about as carefully as you.
  
  Dyingwife took over because I kept telling her we're broke.
  We're still broke, but now she has the bank tell her instead of me.
  She likes it better that way.  When *I* say it, I'm being mean and stingy.  When the bank says teh same thing, it's merely a cold hard fact.  Whatever.
  
  Before I started record keeping though, I used cash and tracked my ATM withdrawals.  I knew about how much my bills were and spent only enough cash that I was confident the bills would be less.  They always were.  Built up a decent cash cushion that way.  Bailed Dyingwife put of debt with it when we got engaged.  (Reckless.  But 13 years later, it was a great investment.)
  
  My side business has its own books.  I am doing a rotten job of balancing my books.  My register says I have 32 dollars, but the bank tells me I have 600 and I don't see any checks I've sent out that haven't been cashed.
  I don't worry TOO much about mistakes in THAT direction, but if I ever find somethign good to spend that 600 bucks on for teh business, it would behoove me to make know where it came from.
  
  

• travelr712 said on Apr 06, 2009....

  i used to do like you star, but now i'm more like et. since it's just me, and my online service posts every check card transaction 30 seconds after it's made, i just go to the site and look every day to make sure that the amount deducted is correct and there are no charges that i don't recognize. i know within a couple dollars every day what my balance should be, so i can tell right away if there's something wrong. it's pretty much the same thing you do, i just don't write it all down and save all that paper is all.

• starchini said on Apr 06, 2009....

  Check card transaction though...im still surprised people dont even have checks anymore.  I mean, i mostly use my check card.  But when it comes to paying bills i use my checks bc then i get my very own reciept and proof that i paid my bill.  That website stuff is only accurate for things that go through, like the check card transactions are instant.  But ive tried that website stuff and i didnt like it cuz it was always different than what i say bc id pay a bill with a check and it doesnt show up on the site until that check is cashed and that could be weeks...So its just not reliable for me.  I need a an indisputable paper trail...If someone argues about something or difutes something and im right i want to be able to prove it...

  I paid off my Lane Bryant credit card last month.  I wrote the check number and the date and put a copy of the check carbon all together and put it in my lane bryant acocunt folder...I sent that check off in the mail march 5th, it was due march 15th...I got another lane bryant statement for april, saying they didnt recieve my check and i must pay the twenty dollar late fee and my full balance was still there...

  I called told them what happened.  They said to fuck off, they dont believe me.  I mailed all my copies to whoever so and so at lane bryant and they apologized. Gave me a 50.00 dollar gift card and cleared it all as it should have been...

  It woulda been much harder to prove without my paper trail and i would a been fucked...

   

• travelr712 said on Apr 06, 2009....

  well not really star. most places are set up now for electronic payments, that's their preferred method. i can go to their website, use my check card to pay a bill, and it shows up in my online service within a half hour usually. since my bank supplies a .pdf of my account statement and will provide me with any records i request, i can do the same thing you do at any time, and i don't have to keep the paperwork myself. all i need is the account numbers associated with my card and the company making the withdrawl. if there's ever a problem, i call my bank account manager, a service provided to me for no extra charge, and they take care of it for me. i very seldom write checks other than for rent, because they won't take electronic payments. but since you do so many more transactions and have 2 people to keep track of, i'd probably do allot more paper trail if i were in that situation.

• starchini said on Apr 06, 2009....

  Just the other day I read some story about this kid in some foreign country on vacation, he used a taxi service and gave the taxi driver his bank card to swipe through the machine to pay for his ride.  Taxi driver did...A few hours later the kid tries to buy something else and his  bank card was denied.  He was flat broke.  Couldnt figure out why.  The math didnt add up he should have so much money left.  He gets a wire transfer for a plane ticket home, trip cut way short.  After getting home and speaking with his bank, the taxi drivers machine made an error, or the taxi driver did, one of the two people made a mistake and the kid ended up paying ten times more than he shouldve...  The kid was shit outta luck, there wasnt anyway to prove that that wasnt the correct amount.  The kid either didnt get or didnt keep the reciept, the taxi driver meter is cleared every so often...simply no proof...

  That is the sort of thing that scares me when it comes to paying bills and sending my account number to someone 4000 miles away from me and trusting them to withdrawl the correct amount and not save my account number for his upcoming vacation...With checks, i can specify exactly the amount, my reciept is with me, un negotiable, no mistakes made, my signature is ironclad...proof in hand at the drop of a hat.

  I just trust me more is all...

  and ya i have a shit load of bills, and i just like to be able to see it all laid out in front of me...

  Plus with my menards card, (i also have all my accounts online to review them when i want to) they charge me five bucks to look at a statement that isnt current.  So if i wanna dispute something and go back and look at the statement that proves they are wrong, they charge me five bucks...

• starchini said on Apr 06, 2009....

  DYINGMAN!!!  I didnt see you up there!  We musta submitted at the same time : )  lol thats funny bout your wife!  I agree those sorts of mistakes are good ones!  Between you and me I think my bank gave me an extra $250.00 it scares me to spend it incase the second I do they snatch it back with a "got ya!".  So i just leave it alone.  I pretend its not there.  Even though thats a 6month long mistake they still havnt fixed im not about to tell'em...  : P 

• uniquely-ironic said on Apr 06, 2009....

  Star, I've had waaaaay more checks of mine go awry than debit/credit swipes.  You just have to be vigilant either way.  If one method is more comfortable that's what really matters.

• auroralost said on Apr 06, 2009....

  I am somewhere in between.  I don't use checks.  I pay all my bill online.   Even my rent.  I do have auto bill pay on most of my monthly bills so I know when it comes out and how much and make sure the funds are where they need to be.  I check my account online every day or so just to make sure everything is as it should be.   I do keep electronic records of when things are paid.  Pretty much everything I pay online sends me confirmation pages which I file to a usb drive every other week or so.   So I am not super organized about it but I do keep it in control.  I did leave a bank before because they were stupid though....lol.   I had something come through the same day as my direct deposit and was told they process out going transactions before incoming so the funds were not technically there and they over drafted me (and it was by less than $5).  I get that is their policy to make some money and it make sense in a weird way but to me it was crap.   I got the fee reveresed eventually and then got a new bank.

• Hegemone said on Apr 06, 2009....

  I know how you feel, my husband was horrible with his checkbook ... he barely ever kept up with it, he'd just use the automated phone thing to find his balance (at least he did that), but when you're writing checks also, and considering some places don't register a debit for a couple days ... your balance might not be correct, so you have to balance it in the register.  My BIL, MIL and SIL are all the same way, and they don't keep a good track of their receipts either so they "forget" stuff and don't take it into account.  I have a system similar to yours.  I balance my checkbook after every outing in which I used my debit card, I balance it immediately after each check and I have a system for where my receipts go, how I log the checks written, etc.  I know where every penny is, has gone and will go.  

• scipio said on Apr 07, 2009....

  Good Habit - Star ! Take care of the pennies and pounds will take care of themselves. Lot of truth in that.
   
  And you my dear - you are as good with finance as with sex. Deadly combo !

• cntlvmenuf said on Apr 07, 2009....

  Oh no starchini! Banks are not human....they are E.V.I.L! Whereas I don't meticulously monitor my spending as you do, am more of an online gal. I check ALL my accounts online, make sure I note the due days and all. I also pay all my bills online...from my bank account though since I dont want them merchants withdrawing my money whenever they see fit.  My bank tells me when the delivery date for the payment will be and they offer the assurance that if by some mistake they don't deliver the money by the date I instructed them to they'll pay any late fees encountered and stuff....but to be on the safe side I schedule my payments a few days before they are due just in case. I've automated most of my regular bills so they get paid automatically every month....its almost like writing a check ya know....and the real cool thing I like is I can log on to my billpay page and see how much money I'll have coming out and at what dates. I get direct deposit and has a fraction of that money deposited directly to a savings account.
  
  I do keep my receipts for about a week or so, mostly because they come in handy if I ever need to return stuff...and to verify that the amount on the receipt is what was posted and not some outrageous figures. I did have an experience where I made a deposit one day, then later that evening when I checked my account online the deposit had not posted! I called the bank and they said they don't see the record of that money so I had to go there in person and show them my deposit receipt! Imagine if I have pitched the receipt or not kept track of my money! It would have been my word against theirs...
  
  As for big purchases, or trips like the guy took, I never use a debit card but prefer credit. If the guy had used a credit card his money would have still been in the bank and it would have been much easier for him to dispute the transaction on credit than debit. And then taking a tab from how you manage your finances he would have made sure he gets a receipt from the cab driver...but his best alternative would have been to pay cash for the cab ride.
  
  Your friends really do need to get a hang of their finances! Whatever method they use though it is always adviceable to know where your money is and where it goes. They wont be young forever and in this day and age we just can't afford to be that reckless.
  

• nytquill17 said on Apr 07, 2009....

  grr I had this whole long post typed out and soulcast ate it. First time that's happened to me! Anyway it was just to say that I used to be just like you but my husband got me to relax a little bit. And even though I'm not so anal anymore we still know exactly how much money we have and where it goes. It's a combination of keeping to a budget (which we manage through Excel - it works wonderfully for calculating money in/money out over time; our regular expenses and paydays are programmed in, so if we have other expenses we just factor them in to that and we can see if spending $100 now is going to put us in the red in several months, even years if we wanted to), paying cash as much as possible, and online banking. We check in on our accounts online a few times a month to make sure everything still adds up. Bills are paid online with a couple of clicks each month. We always know how much is available to us for expenses outside our regular budget, maybe not down to the penny but enough to know what we can and can't afford. We don't keep receipts except for things that we'd need for tax purposes or things we might want to return. We don't use checks except to pay the rent, and neither of us keeps a check register anymore. But yeah - not tracking every receipt and every last penny is NOT the same thing as having no clue how much money you have or how much you're spending. What you and I do to track our money is being responsible, just different methods of doing it. What your friends are doing is just nuts! I would go crazy if I had so little idea about my money. I used to be just like you too, and after I got married DH helped me realize I could simplify things a lot - not be quite as anal as I had been and still keep track reliably - but we're still control freaks and we both like to know what's going on or we can't relax. I mean, I'm the kind of person that remembers prices of things I usually buy at the grocery store and I know how much it costs at this place vs. the place across town, to the point that I notice when it goes up a few cents (maybe I just have too much time on my hands lol). By the time I get to the checkout I know within a dollar or two how much is in my cart. So I just can't comprehend a lifestyle where I don't know roughly how much I've spent or how much I've got left! Crazy.

• whistle_blower said on Apr 07, 2009....

  Im amazed at some of the things that come second nature to me and dont for others.

  Really? I'm amazed how self-obsessed you are. Number one: you are comparing yourself to people you have mostly described as dimwits so even if you know more, thats not saying much. Number two: You need to get over yourself.

  FYI, its not 'lively hood', its 'livelihood'. Also I've seen in many of your posts you write something like 'I was pissed sense he said blah blah', that word is 'since' and not 'sense' but you always spell it wrong. Are those examples enough for you to know you are just as imperfect as others or need I supply some more?

  You're a nice person but dont judge others for being less than perfect because you are just as flawed as them. Your conceit is unjustified.

• starchini said on Apr 07, 2009....

  Oh ya aurora i know exactly what you mean, they can be a pain in the ass.  Even with stuff like times.  If its not deposited before 3pm it goes in the next business day even when they close at 5pm.  Its like they increase the odds for mistakes purposely.  Why wouldnt they make deposits up until closing?  So silly...One time i made a deposit at like 2:30 and then I went to use my check card and was overdrafted.  They told me even though i dropped it in the drop box early enough they didnt get to it before 3pm so it was made the next day...Thats another reason i write more checks than use my check card...I dont like the instantaneous transactions, i run the risk of my bank not being able to keep up...

  Uni, another key factor in my using checks is that i dont have "regular" computer access...I mean, i only use the computer at work.  I dont have a home computer so setting up online banking and things is just less convenient..

  Yup hege, especially if you implement a "combo" system its super improtant to keep track : ) I like your system : ) 

  LoL *blushing* thanks scip : ) 

  cntluvmnuff, i absolutly agree that banks are evil.  If it were up to me wed all still be burying our money in our back yards.  However like the rest of ya, ive been bullied into banking by the big wigs.  Now days without banks you may as well not even exist.  My phil is a prime example.  Hes somewhat of an Anarchist and has refused to bank at all his entire life.  Paid cash with everything... I checked his credit when we were shopping for house, nothin...no credit.  It virtually impossible to get loans of any kind without credit.  Bc of that sort of school of thought my entire financial existence revolves around the money corporation.  I need good credit, the only way is to play along with all the credit companies and let them handle my money...along with that comes interest rates and annual fees, no way around it.  My dad teases me about my cards and balances that i carry, its to keep my credit up, he thinks its stupid.  But hey, I just bought a house, so its not that stupid. 

  NyQuill, lol, i spose i keep such a close record not necessarily bc im "anal" lol, but i have that horrible of a memory.  Im paranoid.  I once got into big trouble with one of my first banks.  I was runnign around with a debit card keeping mental tally of my expenses and i thought i was in check, the next thing i new i deposited my next paycheck and the bank stole it cuz i had like 400 dollars in overdrafts...Plus a few checks they didnt even cover.  A week later there was a warrant out for my arrest for bad check writing.  It sucked very badly.  My parents bailed me out and covered my fuck up.  But at that point i realized im not one of those people that can keep track "naturally"...I need the paper, i need the budget i need the reciepts.  To this day i i triple check what bills ive paid and often triple check my balances.  Im completly paranoid of making another mistake like that.  After some digging, the entire snowball effect happened because of a 35 cent difference.  I had 52 dollars and something cents in my account and went to HyVee and spent 53 dollars...Thinking i was fine i continued to paint the town red...big big oopsies. 

  Whistle Blower,  its a good thing im so God damned self obsessed to know that your opinion doesnt matter.  : )  Thanks for being such an asshole and boosting my self perfection even more. 

• cntlvmenuf said on Apr 07, 2009....

  Whoa......hold up! You bought THEE house??? The cute two story house with a nice size yard and hardwood floors??? Thee house? OMG!!! Kudos to you!!! You must be besides yourself! Congratulations!! (I musta missed the post about the purchase... ).
  
  I was too was pissed when right out of college I was shopping for a car loan and come to find out coz I don't have credit (they might as well call it what it is...DEBT!!) I could not be approved for nada! Now that I got debt thats almost 6 figures (mortgage and some student loans, car note and well....some toxic debt that am hoping to eliminate in a year or two tops) these same people are tripping themselves trying to widen the debt hole am in! Sheeeiiit! I'm a little paranoid when it comes to credit...having access to credit sure does have its benefits....so long as I don't abuse it (learnt that the hard way but it's a lesson well learnt).
  
  But back to the house....and a baby on the way...and Phil...you got it going on! Me so proud of you :-)
  

• RollingC said on Apr 07, 2009....

  If you are not an accountant then at least you have their mentality.  I used to keep records much (not as rigid) as you but then I stopped being so meticulous with my money.  I do keep track (whether written or mental) of the money that comes in and what goes out and I'm still amazed at the number of people that just float on by and blame the bank later for whatever mistakes they make on their income spending...or over-spending.
  For me it's easy to relax and get in trouble and then scramble to balance the budget so I'm always looking for a way to be as frugal as possible.
  Kudos to your record keeping.  I was never that tedious.
  :^)
  Rc
  

• starchini said on Apr 07, 2009....

  cntluvmenuff....hmm...i think your thinking of that one house we were  thinking of buying but didnt cuz it was right off the hwy.  We went another way but yes I bought an even better house!  To summarize, we bought a house in the same town we work in, it was built in 1894, its a three bedroom with an office and a sun room, its got 2 living rooms, an eat in kitchen and a formal dining room.  2 great big bay windows a enclosed wrap around porch, and a stairway to the half assed furnished attic, 2.5 stories with a full basement and a canning room. it has a garden shed with a drive through for the lawn mower, a work shed with a potbelly stove and a two car detached garage it sits on a 4 lot yard AND it cost us $34,000, in on the edge of town and we can see the country side from our yard : )  The downside that we are trying to get done before the baby, it doesnt have air, the furnace is a piece of shit and the wiring is ancient.  So after investing $15,000 grande in the homeimprovements, we can move in!  : )  Im super excited and thank you soooooooooo much for being happy for me : )

  lol rolling, im no accountant, i manage the office, but i hate numbers and im horrible at math.  Thats prolly why im so careful and "rigid" as you call it : P  ...im terrified of making a boo boo..

• PieterOpie said on Apr 27, 2009....

  I have NEVER had a credit card or any account which can be overdrawn.  Never ever ever ever eeeeeveeeeer!!!!!!   Do I look like an idiot - DON'T ANSWER THAT!!!  Despite my appearance I absolutely refuse to pay some rich bastards any fees and possibly huge amounts of interest for using money I may or may not even have yet - and may never actually have in my hot sweaty little lands.  (hands not really sweaty - not stupid looking either....)
  
  Credit cards are for impatient unrealistic spoiled brats who are basically mathematically backward and seem to need material things to make their pathetic lives better with instant gratification through useless material crap that will break before its paid for in full and has a very limited success in making someone feel better for longer than a few hours and will need to be supplimented with yet more crap of a similar nature; all adding up to costing three times as much had they been paid for in cash in hand.  BTW...  Happiness is free.
  
  I was taught not to be a pretentious wanker and trying to be better or happier by buying expensive shit to show off was mentally retatrded and did not only not work but cost way too much and that is not what life was all about and besides, how was I intending to pay for all that garbage?  I was told if I wanted something I should save up my money and then buy it.  If that was impossible then I did not earn enogh to buy whatever it was I wanted and to snap out of it.  Consequently I have never owed any money in my life and yet I have everything I could possibly want but have not a single cent of debt.
  
  The economic crisis passed by me like a bad smell in a strong wind.  I remain unaffected by it as I hear about everyone else who lived way beyond their means with their heads in the sand and silver spoons up their arse. I am amused as these fools fall by the wayside and are freaking out all over the place and selling their second-hand crap bought on credit for less than 5% of its value to amused garage sale shoppers.  It is only a tiny bit less humbling than actually begging in the street. Actually.... It may be more embarrassing.....  It displays stupidity which with a beggars is merely speculation.
  
  Where did these people think the money was going to come from?  How the hell do you run up thousands of dollars on a credit card and ends up being mostly interest?  How is buying a $100 item and owing $300 on it of you don't pay quickly make anyone feel  good?
  
  How many times would you need to do this before learning this was dumb? 
  
  Frankly, anyone who gets in a pickle as bad as I have heard about and do so purely because of selfish self-indulgence, deserve everything they have come to them.  That is evolution at work.  I find it difficult to feel sorry for them. 
  
  

• scipio said on Apr 27, 2009....

  PO's comment above is very apt and to the point.

• PieterOpie said on Apr 27, 2009....

  Yes.... PO is good like that.  He has a remarkable insight into human nature and ... and .....   ehhh...... 
  
  hahahahaha....  I am not going to get away with this, am I?   HAHAHAHAHAHA.....   hee hee heeee heeee......  WAAAAHAHAHA....
  
  (runs from room in hysterics...)
  

• starchini said on Apr 27, 2009....

  Peter, I completly agree with you.  I was raised the same way.  I was taught that if you cant pay for it, save until you can.  While i still think its important to have a credit card for emergencies, they should not be used negligently as a way for people to live above their means. 

  Of course for things like home buying, thats a rather important step in life and something that most people cannot simply save for and buy at once, that purchase if just a wee bit too big.

  Ive said it before and ill say it again "stuff" is just not important.  A person's value has nothing to do with their assets. 

  That was a really good comment Peter.  Except for all that wanker stuff. 

• PieterOpie said on Apr 27, 2009....

  I rented for most of my life and in many other countries people who live in cities rent their entire lives.  I come from Holland and there home ownership is only for the wealthy.  People do not dream about owning their own home.  Why this is such an obsession in America and in Australia, where I live now, is a mystery to me;  especially in recent years.  You can't take it with you and the benefits must now be questioned.  It is a very big responsibility and maintaining the house can be expensive and time consuming. 
  
  Recent studies down under concluded it was far better and cheaper in the long term to rent.  My partner recently bought the house where we now live but   only because our rental house was going on the market after more than 30 years of us as tenants.  I hope nothing goes wrong........ 
  
  As for my wanker comments......   I love wanker comments.... Please let me keep the wanker comments..... please!!!!   Oh PLEASE!!!!!!!   Besides... pretentious people are wankers.   They are!!   Big ones. 
  

• travelr712 said on Apr 27, 2009....

  i agree about renting pieter. i've owned homes twice in my life, and both times i put ALLOT more money into them than i ever got out of them. the idea that being a home owner is a good investment and being a renter is just throwing money away has hopefully been dispelled by the two market downturns over the last 10 years. true, if you buy a house cheap, put money into fixing it up and sell it at the right time, you may make some money, but you have to offset that by what you spent, the interest you paid, the taxes, maintenance, everything you wouldn't have to pay for if you rented. most people don't do that, they just look at what they bought it for and what they sold it for and say they made a good investment. banks know better.

• starchini said on Apr 27, 2009....

  Its very "duh" to me as to why its better to be a home owner than a renter.  Of course anyone can fuck any type of investment up.  Assuming your investment is a sound one, its always smart to invest in real estate

  Having your own land is a big deal.  No one can snatch it from beneath you and put it up for market, you can do what you want with it.  It yours, for aslong as you want.  And if your smart about it, when you no longer want it you can sell it for twice as much as you put into it. 

  The idea of paying off someone elses mortgage is what seems stupid to me. 

  Those buildings that have apartments in them, and all the tenants that pay hundreds to thousands of dollars a month to live there, all that money goes into one pocket.  Sure there is upkeep and maintenance and expenses involved in owning a building, but the owner isnt paying for it, the tenants are with their monthly rent. 

  Renters are giving money to the owners to pay the mortgage and to pay for maintenance.  The owners come out on top almost everytime.  If they are above the 8th grade education level.  However the owner is in charge of weather or not they fail. 

  For instance.  I just purchased a 5 bedroom 3 story victorian home with a solid foundation and on half a city block of land, for $32,000, market value was $49,000.  Aside from purchasing price, ive invested $12,000 into it so far.  The improvements ive made have already increased its market value by more than half.  I could sell at this very moment and come out with a minimum of $14,000 profit. 

  The numbers dont lie, if people are smart about it, the real estate business is extremely lucrative. 

  Im not planning on selling anytime soon, but if and when im ready it will be sold for twice as much as i put into it. 

  My parents bought their home in the 90's for $20,000, theyve invested a grande total of $40,000.00.  Even when the market was at its lowest it was an $80,000 home...

  My brother owns a $140,000.00 home.  It requires no maintenance what so ever it was bought with new everything already in it.  He rents it out for $2,000.00 a month.  The renters pay his mortgage everymonth, plus some...If ever there was maintenace he renters have it paid for in rent.....

  Just given some examples.....

• PieterOpie said on Apr 27, 2009....

  That's what's wrong with debate in an open free forum like this....  Some bastard always comes along and totally screws up what you said a few moments earlier.  Damn this democratic bullshit!!!    Damn it to heeeeeeeeellllll!!!!!   
  
  --->   witty retort should have gone HERE.  <---
  

• travelr712 said on Apr 27, 2009....

  well it does somewhat depend on where you are star, that's true. and i'll add that you really don't know what you could sell those houses for, because you haven't tried to sell them yet. an appraisal doesn't mean you'll get that much money out of the house. you may be right, or you may be like millions right now who thought the same as you and find that the actual sale value of their homes today are less than they still owe on the home. at reapprasial, their homes lost as much as half their value in a single year.
   
  for several years, flipping houses was a pretty lucrative business. it amazed me how quickly home depot went out of business when the housing market began to topple. but the truth is that they they made allot of money from people flipping and buying to fix up and live in for a couple years, and then that market went away and so did they.
   
  if you can keep up with the payments, you may make money and you may not. you also take on a huge risk and may end up with a huge loss. my parents built a home. it appraised at $1 million. when they sold it 5 years later, the neighborhood had changed enough that it took them 2 years to unload it for less than $500,000, and my dad isn't a financial moron. it's just the way the real estate market works. so don't rely too much on that appraisal value, that's what the banks use to be able to lend you as much money as possible, it really has nothing to do with how much the house will actually sell for.

• starchini said on Apr 28, 2009....

  Yes real estate can be unpredictable at times, however, most of the time its quite predictable and if your looking for a good deal, you can find one that makes it almost impossible to fail...Location, Location, Location. 

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