• underdogtoo said on Jun 08, 2006....

  The answer to your confusion might be found in Einstein's theory of Relativity. Everything in the expressed universe is relative. God is something beyond that. He is absolute. He has no expression or rather all that is expressed belongs to him. When one talks about good he talks about something relative. Evil is the same thing. It exists in the relative plane. Both find their source in god. Is a lion evil for eating a zebra? Only man would agonize over good and evil but when good is ascribed to god then it is limiting him. There is no good and evil in the Absolute plane, only consciousness without expression, without judgement.

• lidstrom82 said on Jun 08, 2006....

  Those are some thought-provoking comments. The Bible, though not easy to understand, gives lots of answers. God created humans as His greatest creation, making them in His likeness and giving them free will. Evil exists because Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge, wanting to know the things of God. This was a problem because God told them not to. That was the first ever sin. Since then, mankind has sinned a great deal. Adam and Eve were taken out of the safe garden of eden, and made to live in a hostile land. All that goes to say that since then, man's choice to deny God is the definition of sin, and sin breeds evil. What about natural disasters or sicknesses that we can't control? We may not have created hurricane Katrina or the tsunami in Indonesia, but our world is a hostile one because the first man and woman denied God. Because of this, mankind isn't perfect. A perfect being, God, cannot dwell with imperfect people. That's what Jesus did. He bridged the gap between God and sinful man. That's why Jesus is the central point of Christian faith. This is all Christian belief, but it does account for a great deal of things that science or human wisdom cannot otherwise explain. Remember, random elements combining to form our world and lifeforms is like shaking a loose box of Lego's into becoming a castle, on a much larger scale. It just doesn't happen by accident. If that's true, we have no purpose, no direction, and no morality, if we're all accidents. A good and loving God explains where we came from, Adam and Eve's sin explains how we commit evil, and are now subject to the deadly forces of nature. It also explains how man being its own god is faulty and does not last. Living one's life believing that there is nothing afterwards is ultimately a hopeless endeavor. Think about it. Why give life your best shot if you're going to die anyways? Why reach for success if you can't take anything with you when you die? You could say that leaving a legacy, or an example, for others is a good way to live. But if we're all accidents of evolution, there's no set morality to follow but the one we create. Where did we get any morality from? If we lived by survival of the fittest, we would be somewhat civilized, largely barbaric society. Think of the Holocaust. Think of Stalin murdering more people than Hitler during that same time period. Think of the Khmer Rouge committing systematic genocide around the time of Vietnam. I believe someone must have created us and put us here for a purpose, gave us morality and a set of commands to live by (for our own good, so we don't destroy each other), and gave us a purpose. Any other road, when honestly thinking it through, isn't fulfilling. That may sound narrow-minded, but it is actually a challenge to seek out the worth of religion for yourself (that's speaking to everyone reading this). That means having an open mind - and also considering the claims of the Christian God and Jesus Christ.

• Anon said on Jun 08, 2006....

  well, even if God created this world, he never said that hes gonna make it perfect. so why are we expecting him to make this world a heaven without war, famine and the like.

• stark said on Jun 08, 2006....

  let me start by saying that I'm not a christian, but I think what your arguing against is not christianity per se, but the particular forms of christianity that like to take the bible literally for the most part. I tend to agree with the taoist view that things like good and bad aren't seperate things, but part of a whole. I think the sane christians see it in a similar light.

• unknown said on Jun 09, 2006....

  I would like to say that lidstrom82 said everything I was thinking in such an articulate way it almost makes me not want to post. Evil is not part of God but part of humanity because although we were made in his likeness we are a fallen creation.

• hotaka said on Jun 10, 2006....

  First point - AnonymousVoice, as I would expect, you presented your whole argument much more clearly and logically than most professed atheists. Your dissection of the five points was brilliant. Second - lidstrom82 answered as beautifully as any "sane" Christian could. Too many Christians don't know how to express themselves as well as you did. You focused your argument well and with kindness and tolerance. Super job. A little from me now, though I don't claim to be anywhere near as articulate as you two, or as deep as underdogtoo. Why run a race and give it your best shot if after a month it will be forgotten? Why do your best at work if one day you will retire? Why be a good parent if you are only going to die and leave this world anyway? Why should we try our best at anything? I can't say I have a clear belief in God and His exact nature. I only believe that if there is indeed a God then He is a deep mystery that no one has ever been able to explain satisfactorily. Christianity claims God is Love, and yet is was this God who let Moses mow down his enemies and who allowed or caused the death of thousands who didn't follow His ways. He can't tolerate sin. Then how can we believe He is all forgiving? Jesus helped us out there but still we have Christians warning us of an eternity in Hell. History has seen its share of dastardly Christians and also its share of non-Christian humanitarians. One person on StupidGenius's blog suggested that without God (Christianity) we would all be alcoholics, philanderers, thieves and crooks. But long before there was such a thing as Christianity or even Judaism, human tribes learned that people had to work together for the benefit of the clans' survival. Selfishness and greed could not work in a small tribe or clan where the survival of everyone was hinged on co-operation. Only when they met other clans who threatened their survival by competing for resources did things get appreciatively violent. In today's world we are nudging each other's shoulders and vying for the last untapped stores of natural resources. With advanced technology we have a greater means for destruction at our finger tips. Even without a belief in any particular god, I still think it is worth it to be the best we can everyday because our survival as a species depends on it. If we act cruely and steal and cheat then we spread fear and anger and sow the seeds of our own destruction. If we show tolerance, respect and kindness to others then we spread happiness and feelings of goodwill. I don't need the fear God to make me want to be a good person. But we have to learn to see beyond our own lives and respect all people. Not an easy thing to do these days but then again it seems it never has been. Believing in God and following a Religion just means that the guidelines for living a decent life are more clearly set because they are written down already and if you believe that being a good Christian or Muslim or whatever will win you favours with the Big Guy then all the more reason for you to do your best. Evil exists because we are an evolved species that recognizes it and labels it. Evil and wrong-doing is different from culture to culture and from period to period. But what is truly good in humanity seems to be consistant everywhere and anytime. Those are the points we need to adopt in our daily lives and apply to everyone, not just our family, friends, and countrymen. Evil can be stopped not by God but by the choices we make. As for natural disasters, they are exactly that. Earthquakes, hurricanes, droughts and tsunamis don't happen because God wants to kill us or because the Earth is doing something evil. They have been a part of this planet since long before humans were here and will continue long after we are gone. They exist on other planets too. What we experience here is just the nature of a planet that has Earth's age, size, composition, atmosphere, surface water water percentage, distance from the sun, angle of rotation, one moon, neighbouring planets, and passing comets and meteors. Did I miss anything? Sorry. I rambled.

• mysterious said on Jun 14, 2006....

  God has given us freewill to lead our life as how we want to. Man makes his own decisions and lead to many things. War, for example. In the first place, who invented all these devastating weapons? Man! Who decides and who acts upon making an attack on one another? Man! No specific person, but man in general, has been given the freedom and its effects can only be placed on mankind itself. So, in all honesty, I do not think it would be right to put all the blame totally on God himself, if ever there is one to blame. Like in a normal relationship between two people, person A cannot force person B to do something that person B does not want to do. As regarding natural events --- as explained earlier, these can be explained in a scientific way, of what happens to the waves, earth's crust, etc. Some people may see it as God's wrath and yet, it can also be explained in a scientific way, with the cause and effects of the Physics of the Universe. To end it, for me, it does not matter what religion you are. There is the word FAITH. What matters is your faith and what you believe in, whether in yourself, in people you love, in the world, or in a higher power greater than we can describe.

• lidstrom82 said on Jun 15, 2006....

  hotaka, you are awesome. I appreciate your words just as much as you do mine. God does not tolerate sin, but He has mercy on us. In the old Bible times, the penalty for sin was death. However, the Israelites and His people would sacrifice healthy rams, cattle, and such, to take the place of their own sin. That wasn't cruelty to animals - God created animals for the use of humans - and that was His chosen alternative to slaughtering sinful people at the time. So in that way, God did tolerate sin, but blood must be paid for it. In the old days, it was animal sacrifice, and it was serious business. Then Jesus came. When He died on the cross, He paid the price for everybody for all time - by His blood, every person that will ever live has the choice to accept Him as the Son of God. What many people reject this because of is this: evil in the world, natural disasters, disease, famine, the Bible is faulty, and so on. If one is courageous enough to read the Bible and ask questions of it, they will find that answers to the above will present themselves. Sadly, many never get that far. As a Christian, it pains me to see others put their trust in money, sex, drugs, other people, and basically worship them. I know that whatever they gain, whatever they have, it will not last. It also hurts me to hear dastardly Christians try to scare others with hellfire and damnation - although now it just gets many people angry. Those Christians take the Bible out of context, just as we misquote lots of historical figures. They take the meaning to extremes. Does that make the Bible or God wrong if His people are choosing to do and say stupid stuff? No - in reality, they're the ones causing trouble. Because of Jesus' sacrifice, God does tolerate sin in us, but He does call us to live holy, upright lives. And if anyone sees it as a mere religion, it is understandable, but they limit the Christian life to "a religion people follow to give purpose and direction". What if I said Jesus is THE purpose, and THE direction? Most would laugh at me. Just remember, I do not laugh back in ridicule at your lives.

• hotaka said on Jun 16, 2006....

  "I do not laugh back in ridicule at your lives." Can I give you a hug for being so understanding? You are counted in a very special group of Christians I have met in my life. Your openess and understanding compliment your unshakable faith, lidstrom82. I totally respect you in that way.

• CreativeWoman said on Jun 20, 2006....

  I agree with Mysterious. I think free will has a lot to do with all that is wrong with the world around us. It is faith that gives us hope sometimes. We don't have to look very far within our own lives to find where our own free will has led us astray. I know I am as guilty as anyone else where that is concerned. Sometimes my faith in God is all that keeps me going.

• TheNakedProfessor said on Jun 22, 2006....

  The Bible is an anthology book, fable, fact and fiction all mixed together. A sign of modern insanity is to settle for whatever a book has to say, then rationalize it with some allusion to "blind faith." That's called "surrendering." Giving up just because you don't have the time, intellect or inclination to devote thought to the most significant issues of life and would rather leave the thinking to "them" doesn't mean you're getting eternal life or (even more pompous) "heaven." It means you're gambling. For a picture of God that makes sense, see my blog on the subject, called BECOMING GOD. Look me up on SoulCast. - TheNakedProfessor

• twist said on Jun 22, 2006....

  if you are truly honest with yourself, go and buy a good Handbook of Christian Apologetics, for example the one written by Peter Kreeft & Ronald K. Tacelli. If after you study it you still want to be an atheist, at least you will be able to tell your creator, when you stand before him, that you made an effort.

• GumpyJumptooth said on Jun 24, 2006....

  It's not Christ I have a problem with. It's Christians. Just watch Pat Robertson's program for fifteen minutes. Most of it doesn't involve self-betterment or the betterment of others. Most of it involves the denegration of others. And while you hold God accountable for creating war, famine, disease, etc., please remember that God also created Bar-B-Que flavored Pringles. So it balances out.

• CITIVIEW said on Jun 30, 2006....

  Thought provoking, your analysis of God is purely intellectual. To fully understand God and all His Supreme Greatness, you have think spiritual. As quoted from the Little Prince, "It is only through the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye." From your heart springs forth Faith. It is difficult to believe in someone that can't be seen or someone greater than the mind can fathom. But with your heart, Faith can defy any logic or illogical assumptions about God. Jesus is the Son of God. Whoever has seen Jesus and acknowledges His works also acknowledges His Father, the One who sent Him. Everything that happens here on earth and in our universe was set according to God's plan when He created all of them. The logical sequence of natural and unexplainable events are all set in motion by God. This is affirmed in the Bible in the Chapters of the Book of Job.

• RobsStuff said on Jul 10, 2006....

  Evil is mearly a perceptual position. Because of this its definition changes with the predominant memes of the populace. That said for cohesive groups to develop they require structured thinking systems. Relatavism comes later. Many of the debates seen here at Soulcast are generated by the friction between absolute and relative thinking styles. It is difficult for people to step out of their preferred ways of thinking and be objective.

• stark said on Jul 12, 2006....

  "It's not Christ I have a problem with. It's Christians. Just watch Pat Robertson's program for fifteen minutes. Most of it doesn't involve self-betterment or the betterment of others. Most of it involves the denegration of others." Hey gumpy, I agree. But, Pat Robertson is an opportunist that happens to use christianity for his own ends. Anything that is good can be abused by people like Robertson. I'm not a christian, but am just pointing out that people like Robertson can't be used to discredit real christianity.

• GumpyJumptooth said on Jul 12, 2006....

  >>Hey gumpy, I agree. But, Pat Robertson is an opportunist that happens to use christianity for his own ends. Anything that is good can be abused by people like Robertson. I'm not a christian, but am just pointing out that people like Robertson can't be used to discredit real christianity.<< You're right. We should use Jimmy Swaggart, the Bakers, Oral Roberts (selling prayer hankies), and all the Catholic priests diddling young boys for the last few centuries to discredit Christianity. Sorry, but Robertson runs a network totally devoted to Christianity. You can't have it both ways... "Only the GOOD Christians should be used to evaluate Christianity." Please, don't make me laugh. Christians want to judge themselves personally? Fine. But the vast, vast, vast majority want to judge others, and make rules for others.

• stark said on Jul 13, 2006....

  the vast majority of people in the world are hypocritical which means that most christians are too. That doesn't mean that christianity is false. Pointing out the flaws in people (swaggart, robertson, etc) is only pointing out the flaws in people! Pick out any group or institution and we can find people to pick on. It still proves nothing.

• GumpyJumptooth said on Jul 14, 2006....

  >>the vast majority of people in the world are hypocritical which means that most christians are too. That doesn't mean that christianity is false. Pointing out the flaws in people (swaggart, robertson, etc) is only pointing out the flaws in people! Pick out any group or institution and we can find people to pick on. It still proves nothing.>> OK. I'll go a little broader here, just for your benefit. We'll completely disregard the fact that these are all mass media Christian charlatans preying on the weak-minded. Are gay people trying to keep Christians from getting married? Are pregnant women trying to keep Christians from having abortions? Are people with life-threatening dibilatating illnesses trying to keep Christians from benefitting from stem cell research? Are gamblers trying to keep churches being built in their towns? Are cable networks and satellite systems trying to censor Christian programming? Reverse these questions and you can see who the real intolerant people are.

• stark said on Jul 18, 2006....

  I completely agree that most christians are intolerant, but at the same time I think most christians don't really understand christianity. I guess it's just semantics at this point. If christianity is defined as what "most christians" think then you are absolutely right. If it's defined by what the bible says and what jesus taught then it's a bit different. All I'm saying is that what most christians do doesn't seem to be in accordance with what jesus actually said or did, but I'm not a christian so what the hell do I know :)

• LadyGamer said on Jul 30, 2006....

  Keeping in mind, the Bible is a collection of stories printed and reprinted and reprinted by people. Edited over and over by people. So it too should fall in the "what most christians believe" category. And I agree with the reference that good and evil and the varied aspects of God are subjective. Based all but entirely upon perception.

• charleslloyd said on Jul 30, 2006....

  i have an issue with the naked prof. sorry man, but when you explain the bible and its followers that way, you lump them all together into group commonly referred to as 'sheep'. you may have known a few christians in your time who fit your description...so have i. to assume that all believers in and followers of the bible are 'settling for whatever a book has to say, then rationalizing it with some allusion to "blind faith." ' is a completely wrong assumption. some christians have studied, labored over, wrestled with, mentally digested, and pondered the bible for countless hours on end. they have listened to teaching attended classes taught by believers and unbelievers, looked at the 'facts' of science, the claims of evolution, the claims of creationism, and come out believing in the validity of the bible as the word of god (not an anthology book). i have issues with people who assume things about other people because of their own assumptions as to what is true. life is complex, deep, and hard to understand. i have not 'surrendered'. i have struggled, come to new understanding of the role of faith in intellectualism, and come to the conclusion that the bible is true, god is real, and jesus is the son of god. this point of view is not for mindless followers or 'sheep'. please look fully into the other side of the issue before issueing such judgements.

• hotaka said on Aug 01, 2006....

  I agree and support the statements of Mr. Charles Lloyd with regards to some Christians spending "countless hours" to learn about their faith. One only has to look at lidstrom82's comments to see how a Christian can labour over learning about his faith. The only problem I had was that every question I had was answered with, "It's in your Bible." I wanted a second opinion and the only place to get that was outside Christianity. I couldn't accept that all the answers were in one book only. But that was just me.

• charleslloyd said on Aug 01, 2006....

  i feel ya hotaka...everytime says "its in your bible" in response to difficult questions concerning christianity, it's almost as if i can hear them saying "i have no idea..." instead. besides, in some situations that is a completely circular argument (or 'answer'). if one is struggling with belief in god, then they are also inherently struggling with the credibility of the bible of god's book. therefore, "its in your bible", doesn't help much. that said, "its in your bible" is completely relevant in some situations and with some people. questions within the scope christianity can be answered with "its in your bible", but questions ABOUT the validity of christianity (or the existence of God, or whatever) cannot. the problem with looking for answers as to the validity of the bible outside of christianity, i.e. other religions (even atheism and the theory of evolution), is that everyone you learn from will be biased toward what they believe and you will want to then seek answers in another arena. sorry, i dont think i worded that well, but its not really important. the point is, in a quest for absolute truth, you cannot find absolute proof anywhere. for me, personal experience was a MAJOR factor in coming to believe in christianity. crazy stuff has happened to me that i cannot explain away as coincidence. but i wont get into that. i have a blog on soulcast about that.... well, the one other thing that really did it for me was looking at the evidence against the theory of evolution and learning a little about microbiology. i cannot, even if i wanted to with alllll my heart, believe in the theory of evolution (at least macro evolution....micro is another story, but nevermind that for now). everytime i get out in nature, especially when i can understand the complexity of living organisms, i am totally blown away. i find myself saying "there is NO way evolution could be true". last thing that solidified it for me...there is no way (and every evolutionist will agree with me on this) that something can come from nothing. ever. thats a very simplistic hurdle that i couldn't get over in trying to justify the theory of evolution. its getting long...i'm done. the answers for me came when i personnaly sought Jesus with all my heart. i looked for him like crazy and i found him. my life was changed. its too deep to explain. i'll stop talking. bye. sorry, one last thing...i don't think people should wait until they possess all the answers before they follow christ (if one wants to). noone will ever possess all the answers. answers come and questions arise. its like perpetual motion. it never stops. thats where the whole faith issue arises. faith in God isn't blind (its rather justified actually i believe), but it's still required (no matter what you believe...even evolution. in fact i honestly feel more faith is required to believe in no god than the other way around). but anyways...

• hotaka said on Aug 01, 2006....

  Well said. It was, coincidentally, the study of evolution that brought me seeking God. Everything seemed so well planned out, like a scientist making the ultimate experiment, that I found myself thinking there must be some kind of divine force, if you will, guiding the whole process. But that was exactly where others disagreed with me. I was willing to give God credit for all the wonder I was learning about but very few were willing to accept my view of God. They told me that everything I needed to know about Creation was in the Bible. That just didn't suit the way I saw things. Why can't evolution be true with God guiding everything along? No matter how technical and detailed it all is, doesn't that just say there must have been some force at work? I have heard both evolutionists and Christians say that for life to be created spontaneously out of organic chemicals would be like a tornado creating a jet out of a scrap yard (which is a crap story because tornados are randomly destructive whereas if there is such a thing as self-organization in nature then it is exactly geared toward creating order and not spreading chaos). In any case, I support anyone who believes with all their heart in any kind of religion that spreads peace and good will. If something happened to you that brought you to Jesus I think that is honestly a really great thing. And for anyone who is Buddhist, Muslim, Sihk, Hindu, or whatever, as long as you make the best of yourself and try to be a decent human being then exactly what you believe and how you pray doesn't matter to me. God bless everyone. Thanks for sharing your insights. I enjoyed reading them.

• StrangeOne said on Aug 30, 2006....

  "The only way to solve this problem is give up one of the 5 premises. If he's not omnipotent then he did his best but that wasn't good enough to get rid of evil. If God is not the sole creator of everything that exists then evil can be attributable to another creator. If he is not perfectly good, then evil is the consequence of his willing it to exist. However, all 5 statements are essential, are they not? Why should any human being worship or obey a powerful being who isn't good?"
  
  No, all 5 statements are not essential. You forgot to consider the possibility that evil does NOT exist.
  
  My thoughts: "good" and "evil" are subjective, human creations. I do believe in a god, but not a biblical god. I am a pantheist. In other words, The Universe = God. We are pieces of the universe, possessing free will. I don't believe in some "parental figure" of a god casting judgment. But I do believe in a spiritual plane, in reincarnation, and the idea that what we do has consequences. The consequences come not from some kind of outside judgment, but from the fact that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. So how could there be no consequence?
  
  But I've never understood how good and evil could be called some kind of real absolutes. What is good for one, is evil for another. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. And since when are natural disasters evil? Natural disasters are just the earth functioning the way that it does. When I have a fever, and millions of germs die in the heat, do the survivors pray to God wondering why He let this happen?
  
  God or no God, there are simple explanations for everything. "Why does God let it happen" is a childish question. It's obvious, people, we have free will!!! Why war? Because people fight. Why natural disasters? Because we mess up the earth, and we choose to live in hurricane-prone areas, and earthquake-prone areas, etc. Why disease? Because we eat garbage, throw toxic waste into our water, and continue to insist that death is something bad, rather than a good and natural transition to the spirit world. Why famine? Because selfish warlords prevent folks from getting food, because short-sighted do-gooders choose to give fish instead of teaching people how to fish, etc, etc... What does God have to do with any of this???
  
  IMHO, using the bible, or any other outside source, is an immature way of forming one's morality. It is far more meaningful to think deeply about one's actions, try to figure out how each thought and deed affects others, and think it through carefully. Although I'm not a Christian, I do believe Jesus summed it up nicely: treat others as you would have them treat you. (What are the other 1000+ pages for?) But, if you need a book to tell you that, then something is seriously wrong.
  

• lidstrom82 said on Aug 30, 2006....

  StrangeOne, I understand where you're coming from. Jesus did sum it up best, and we do have free will, so we commit atrocities as a race - so it's foolish to pin it on God.
  
  However, looking to a guidebook on life is not so much immature. The Bible can be trusted, but if someone does not look into it with an open mind, it's a closed book already. The Bible is an anchor to keep life steady when a million other voices say different. I also believe that good and evil exist and are determined by God, not by human beings. If it were up to us, there would BE no evil, and yet good and evil are two of the most commonly recognized and accepted concepts to the entire human race. They're there for a reason. If there's no evil, then anything goes, right? And to put it bluntly, we'd all be screwed.
  

• StrangeOne said on Aug 31, 2006....

  I just don't see on what basis the Bible can be trusted. Even if the original one did come from God in some way... unless you read Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic or whatever languages it was originally written in, how do you know your translation is anywhere near correct? There is evidence that it's been screwed around with plenty over the centuries, with things being taken out, put in, and changed by people who wished to skew it in one way or another.
  
  I can kind of see your point about having some kind of anchor to keep your life steady during a time of confusion, but the Bible seems an arbitrary choice to me. Why the Bible, and not the Bhagavad Gita, or the Koran, or whatever other spiritual text happens to touch your soul? It seems to me that in most cases, a Christian chooses the bible simply because he or she was born into a Christian family. Same goes for any other religion, for that matter. But I don't think that being born into a particular religion makes it "the right one."
  
  As for evil... well, even though I don't believe in an absolute good or evil, for the purposes of argument I will define evil as that which we, as humanity, generally revile and are hurt by. So to reply to your comment, "f it were up to us, there would BE no evil"; on the surface, that would appear to be true. Sure, if you ask a random person, "should we have evil?" then of course they would say no. But if you further question them about the things they've done in their lives, you would probably find out that they've done such things such as stolen, cheated on their spouse, perhaps assaulted someone, maybe got sent off to war and killed people. So then my follow-up question would be, "If you think there should be no evil, then why have you contributed so much of it?" I don't know what a person could say to that. We don't want evil, and yet we create it ourselves everyday. So to answer your final question, yeah, there's no evil, and anything goes. Anything does go! People do whatever they feel is right at the moment (e.g. I'm sure the terrorists believe they are doing god's good work), and then someone else looks at it, and goes, "that's evil." So, as long as people do whatever they think is right without thinking through the consequences and how it affects others, then yeah, we ARE all screwed.
  

• lidstrom82 said on Aug 31, 2006....

  Awesome words, StrangeOne...and herein is where my belief comes from: we are all screwed, yet Jesus offers the way out. His words and claims are unlike anything I've heard in other religions: believe in Him and you'll be saved. That's it. Every other religion seems to boil down to a to-do list that we must achieve ourselves. But we are all screwed by the evil we create every day, no matter how good we try to be or no matter how many things we've checked off of our religion's to-do list. That's why we need a savior, and that is Jesus. So that's to explain where I'm coming from with my belief.
  
  I didn't know Jesus or attend church as a kid, so I didn't exactly grow into a Christian household. I agree with you 100%, just because someone is born into a religion doesn't make it right. That just makes it family tradition, and Christianity is more than that - it's a relationship with the living God. Many Christians make it tradition and a to-do list, but Jesus clearly debunked that to the Pharisees.
  
  So I do believe in God because He created us, and when we screwed up, millennia ago and today, He sent His Son Jesus to make everything right again. Anybody who wants to break the cycle of screwing up and trying to attain perfection themselves can just become a follower of Jesus. It's not easy. But when you can pray and talk to the creator of the universe, any problem does not seem to overmatch that.
  

• StrangeOne said on Aug 31, 2006....

  lidstrom, I hate to say it, but this is where you (and Christians in general) kinda lose me. Well, let me explain to you first what I think about Jesus. I think he was a great teacher of humanity - an Enlightened Being. Just like the Buddha, and a few other enlightened people who have appeared over time to help enlighten others. I may not be a Christian, but I feel his teachings are extremely valuable and he was/is a great soul. However, not being a Christian, I do not attach what I see as the common mythology to him: he's not the "son of god" any more than the rest of us are, I doubt he was born to a virgin, and I think his death is irrelevent (important only in pointing out the folly of those who killed him). And this is where I, personally, think Christians focus on the wrong things. Instead of really following his teachings, they idolize him and the circumstances of his birth and death.
  
  When I hear you explain the reason for your beliefs, this "believe in me and you'll be saved," versus the way other religions have you achieve things yourselves - well I can't help thinking that you chose Christianity.. because it looks so easy! I really don't think it's that easy. The concept that believing in one fellow, like believing in Santa Claus, will make everything OK for you in the end, just makes no sense to me whatsoever. I mean, of COURSE you have to achieve things for yourself! Of course it's difficult not to create any evil! Who said it was? Do you really think that Jesus doesn't care what you do, as long as you believe in him? What kind of a deity is that? I'm sorry, but I think that Jesus has been misconstrued by Christians for centuries. People think they can do whatever they want, then pray to Jesus, and it's all OK. No wonder the world is screwed up!!! Eh, now I'm not even being coherent, I'm just ranting.
  
  Anyway, I think that Jesus wanted to try and make things right, but I don't think it worked. I think things got worse, unfortunately, indirectly because he was here. Look at all the atrocoties commited in his name. Do you think he would like that? Do you think he would condone the crusades, or the inquisition?
  
  Anyone who wants to break the cycle of screwing up, IMHO, can read the teachings of Jesus and take them to heart, or the teachings of the Buddha, or any other Enlightened being - and then turn inward and meditate on these teachings and really feel what those teachings mean - inside. Simply saying, "I follow Jesus" just doesn't cut it. I mean, just look around you, at all the followers of Jesus who commit atrocious acts against one another, every day!
  

• lidstrom82 said on Oct 09, 2006....

  StrangeOne, you totally make sense with everything you said; even the ranting wasn't really ranting, it was a lot of thoughts that do make sense.
  
  Only one path to salvation? Jesus as the Son of God? No other correct religion? Love unconditionally even if Jesus' followers don't? Hmm...yep, those things are definitely thrown around and acknowledged.
  
  The number one thing people can't accept about Jesus is that one man rewrote history and provides the way for all of us to live purposefully and to enjoy paradise after death. You touched upon this, StrangeOne. It is a hard thing to accept.
  
  I do believe that the Bible has been tampered with much less than you realize. Are there changes? Are there some errors? There could be. I've looked at quite a few myself and found that either the translation was worded strangely (as in, not as easy to understand as today's contemporary language), or there just wasn't enough info provided to know if it was a typo.
  
  You are free to have doubts, StrangeOne, but know this: choosing Christianity is not something I was born into, nor was it an easy choice. It took months of depression and isolation, and planning for suicide, before I realized that all the wisdom and thinking and coping I could muster was failing. I needed something outside myself, but my friends had all left me and my parents were strained by the situation. After becoming a Christian, my family did not follow suit; to this day, the toughest part of being a believer is that my family largely does not share my faith. It is truly like being an alien in your own home.
  
  Why even go through it? Because I need grace from God - assurance of His love when I'm at my worst, and no one else will accept me. You can't say I made him up and it saved me from suicide, because I didn't even know who Jesus Christ was on the night I wanted to commit suicide. I just knew "God" - and although I didn't know the Bible inside and out, and I didn't have anyone else to talk to (I had pushed them all away), God was the only one who still saw worth in me even when no one, even myself, did.
  
  I won't answer for Christians who have done terrible things in God's name, but is it not fair to also point out all the nonchristians who have done just as much damage? The point is regardless of beliefs, mankind has committed great evils. We need a savior, and I worship Jesus because He was clear on who He was, and He rose from the dead. He wasn't deified after death like Buddha was - He is the King of Kings. Apart from God, there is no one else above Him. And all the negative comments about God's people and the misunderstandings about Jesus would be put to rest if many just read the Bible with an open mind.
  
  To that end, it is arguable that misunderstandings about Christianity are just as offensive as Christians who use their religion for selfish, ill purposes. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a Christian who died at the hand of the Nazis while trying to remove Hitler from power, and he called selfish Christians as people with "cheap grace" - people that, just as you said, StrangeOne, followed Jesus and thought that He would be OK with everything they did, with doing whatever they wanted. No, it doesn't work that way. The mark of a true Christian is in their heart and their actions, just as a good eBay seller has 100% positive feedback - it's all out there for everyone to see.
  
  So StrangeOne, you do speak truth, but you must understand there is more than what you see. Being born into a religion does not make it right - Jesus said to make disciples of all nations - and that is why Christians risk their lives in China today, teaching people there about the same Jesus with the same power that saved me from suicide, that unconditional love that offers us all grace to make mistakes but to receive total forgiveness when we admit our wrongs to Him. It's no mystical experience or series of hoops to jump through. We're screwed up and Jesus can fix us, so for those who accept that offer we can be taken just as we are and live a life for God - and that is actually harder than a nonchristian's life in that your life is lived by God's standards, not by doing whatever you want. At the same time, Christians have a God to depend on for everything, while nonchristians usually grasp at straws for anything to give them acceptance and security - marriages, substance abuse, work, and it goes on. And yet we're a world with more divorces than marriages, many addicts, and cynical members of the rat race. A life loved by god and accepted as is, is the alternative. Dismiss it if you want, but if ever a time comes where everything else around you fails, God is always waiting patiently for when you are ready.
  

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