• kruuyai said on Mar 09, 2009....

  Absolutely not.  That's a no-brainer.  What country is this in?

• andora said on Mar 09, 2009....

  Brasil
  
  the doctor, the mother and the girl were all excommunicated by Ratzinger
  
  i wonder if the stepfather was excommunicated?
  
  
  

• kruuyai said on Mar 09, 2009....

  No shit.  They sure shine the spotlight on the wrong stage, don't they?  Well, what do you expect from a church that condones pedophilia among the priesthood?

• anonymous said on Mar 09, 2009....

  The stepfather won't be excommunicated.  According to the bishop, what he did was horrible, but not as bad as abortion.

• Expendable said on Mar 09, 2009....

  If you believe that every life is precious, then the Catholic Church is right.
   
  I personally believe the girl shouldn't be forced to carry these babies to term - she's not ready to have one baby, let alone twins. But what did she want to do?
   
  Lina Medina was 5 in Peru when it was discovered she was 7 months pregnant. She gave birth to a healthy boy in 1939 by c-section.

• PieterOpie said on Mar 09, 2009....

  The church has no business here.  It has no business anywhere.  The church is tyranny and despotism.  We should all get together and decide to oust the church from the planet.  They are evil incarnate.  The pope is the devil - and I don't even believe in the devil - but he is Satan.  Unquestionably.
  
  The poor child should be taken care of in hospital and the church should pay for it.  Regardless of what is done for her.  THAT would be the christian thing to do.
  
  But.... as usual they play the role of the dark prince of evil.
  
  Situation normal.
  
  bye now......  kissy kissy.
  
  
  Oh.... and DEATH TO THE POPE AND HIS TEMPLE OF DOOM!!!!!!
  

• superbozo said on Mar 09, 2009....

  I was going to blog this to. Apparently the stepfather only broke mans law and the doctors and mother of the little girl broke Gods law in agreeing to this abortion. WTF. I have no idea when they had this conforversation with god or how god informed them through the scriptures of his no abortion no matter what law. And the stepfather has only broken mans law. So thats why all those priests where allowed to abuse children it must be ok in the eyes of god as far as the catholic church is concerned. Could you imagine Jesus excommunicating this little girl or her mother or doctors for trying to help her. I don't think so. No wonder I ran away from home rather than let those bastards baptise me. "Only god can judge" well give me a gun and I'll happily organise the meeting for this archbishop and the step father.

• PieterOpie said on Mar 09, 2009....

  NOTE:   ATTENTION CATHOLICS.
  
  I was a catholic once but I excommunicated the church when I was fourteen.  I got in first.  I STRONGLY advise that all catholics follow my example and reject this evil power hungry organisation which uses superstition to control a fifth of the world's people.  The church is the biggest con ever perpetrated on humanity since the invention of kings and the like.  Religion and royalty are outdated.  Take back your power and send the priests to the unemployment lines.  ENOUGH!!!!!
  
  Act now.  You won't regret it.  Become free.  God* will understand completely, I promise you.  
  
   
  *God may or may not exist.  
  

• HollyGoLightly said on Mar 09, 2009....

  ...as usual, with any topic on SC that even hints at involving religion or God, this one seems to have gone completely off-track, and most of the responses so far have been rants against religion, God, the church, and Catholics in general.
   
  at least if you're fired up enough to comment~~stick to the subject!!!
  not every mention of the faith has to involve a diatribe on your personal views.
   
  *expendable* is quite right re: the law of the Catholic Church. I count myself as a firm believer of the fact that life begins at conception (not when the heart begins to beat, not when it is " viable"), unquestionably. 
   
  regarding this specific situation, I think it is horrible that a 9 year old child should have to carry & give birth to twins. I also believe it is horrible that an act was committed upon her, at nine years old, and cause her to become pregnant. I believe it's horrible, that two innocent, beautiful souls, who could have been beautiful children, who were, however horrible the situation, created to live, will be ripped, literally from the womb, sucked through a tube like a vacuum hose, and disposed of in a contaminated waste bucket.
   
  the church has to follow church law which says that life begins at conception.
  it also says that since God creates every being with a soul, that however tiny, however new, however horrible the circumstances of it's human creation, human
  beings are not allowed to kill this little being. it is a life. taking a life is a sin. (let's remember here that ALL Christian religions, as well as many others believe this as well~~it's not exclusive to Catholics).
   
  God is in charge of life and death~~not us. the church stands by it's canon. it has to. what meaning would any of it have for anyone of faith if it did not? the true reason for the church is to UPHOLD the laws of God, and TEACH the teachings of Christ. if it begins making "exceptions", what happens to moral fortitude?
   
  let's not forget as well...this child's mother has a choice. either choice she makes comes with consequences (as all choices do), but she does have a choice. the church can tell her no, and she, if she chooses can reject that answer, advice,commandment, and follow through with the abortion anyway. the church cannot force her to keep the babies. it is only doing what morally, we should expect it to do. but ultimately, the decision lies with the mother of the nine year
  old.
   
  just as we all have a choice. don't be so eager to jump on the bandwagon, lumping all believers, or religions factions into one big pot. and don't be so quick to bash whatever church or religion you don't agree with. learn why they make the decisions they do. remember also, true people of faith don't view situations such as this one the same way a more "worldly" person, or a non-believer would.
   
  how are you so sure your opinion is the only correct one?
   
  ~*~Holly~*~
   
   

• superbozo said on Mar 09, 2009....

  The reason holly that the doctors decided along with the mother of this daughter to abort was for her health. It was the opinion of the doctors that her health was at risk as she was too small and unhealthy to carry the twins to term therefore risking her own and the the unborn childrens lifes. I disagree with abortion when it's an adult who just does not want the hassle. But here we have a nine year old girl who has been raped expected to risk her own life to give birth to twins. I believe in God I feel him inside me everyday. I do not agree with the catholic church on this however. The bible teaches Judge not least you be judged. Well I'm afraid if history is anything to go by there are many in the catholic church (Not all) that have a lot to fear from gods wrath I'm sure. The reason I didn't post was because I needed to reflect first. But afer reflecting on this for 2 days I stick by my comments here. I will be posting my religious journey here soon. It is very different to most peoples experience and at the same time very familar to many. This little girls health was at risk by continuing with this birth and I believed the doctors were not abortion doctors as abortion is illegal in Brasil unless it can be shown that the mothers life is at risk. They were just doctors practicing catholics doctors at that. The doctor that carried out the abortion has said he fully intends toi go to mass on Sunday like he has every Sunday despite being excommunicated by his church.

  http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,25146388-401,00.html?from=public_rss

  Read the article then comment. How can these twins right to life be any more important than this girls right to life. Or are they all supposed to die.

• superbozo said on Mar 09, 2009....

  And do not give me the gods will speech. God gave us free will. The idea that he puts obstacles in our way to test us just doesn't sit well with me. He works through us but we are masters of our own destiny. God asks nothing of us except to love him unconditionally. These are mans laws written by men. We can not even begin to say we know gods mind. The scriptures give us a clue but even the men that wrote them cannot proclaim to know gods mind either. It is all open to interpretation. Even the experts can not agree on some of these translations from ancient scripture even the catholic church has many splinter groups that disagree on just about everything. So some men have made their conclusions and have saddled us with their thoughts and tell us it's gods law. Well I see gods law working in nature all the time and animals survive by doing some horrendous things to each other and their own species in the name of survival. We as man are no different.

• PieterOpie said on Mar 10, 2009....

  Yeah well, Holly,  we don't really give a toss about what you believe or what the god-forsaken-evil catholic church thinks either.  The girl has been violated in the worst possible way and now god decides to side with the monster who did this.  BULLSHIT!!!  You are wrong.  I think I have as much right to decide what god wants and I am telling you god will not condemn the girl nor the mother for saving this child from having to endure a potentially fatal pregnancy but if she were to survive to then have to live with the knowledge that she had the product of this heneous crime - the two demon spawn.  It is on his head.  If god exists - and of course he does not, but if he did he would take it out of the step-father's hide, not the innocent child he raped. How nasty do you think god is to first allow this to happen and then to continue to punish her for wanting to rid herself of the experience.  She has every right - the father has none.  He has forgone all rights with his actions.  He should rot in jail for life. 
  
  BTW,,,, there is a basic rule in catholosism that is little known.  That rule is actual doctrine which is not preached and that is that if a person does something that the church says is a sin but the person believes is not a sin - as in this very case, then if she has the abortion she has not sinned.  She must believe she is not sinning otherwise it is not valid.  In this case I would think she could not possible believe she would be doing wrong.  Therefore she is in the clear according to the church's own laws. 
  
  I was told this by a catholic scholar who studied theology and catholic doctrine for many years as a jesuit.  It is a fact but it is not made known for obvious reasons. 
  
  Iy is the same rule that protects me from sin as I tell jerks like you to shove your fucking church up the pope's arsehole.   I believe it is not a sin to do so,  In fact I see it as my divine right and my humanitarian duty!!!!  
  
  Yo hell with the pope!!!!!
  
  Suck those two devils out of that child!!!!!!  
  

• husbandhater said on Mar 10, 2009....

  My God help this poor child. She's been violated 2. Once by her step father(So CALLED) and then by the adults around her telling her she must have these twins(God help them ,products of rape). Then she is barely old enough to understand the ramifications of her actions and what is like to be a child or an adult. I will pray for her.

• kruuyai said on Mar 10, 2009....

  I find it interesting, to say the least, that those of you who side with the church on this matter and are so eager to condemn this poor girl to probable death (because that was the probable outcome if she had carried the twins to birth), for doing nothing but be victimized by someone who was immensely more powerful than her, would probably be the first to point your fingers at those cultures in the Muslim world where women are stoned to death for being victimized by rapists.  It's so easy to sit back and make these decisions when it's not your life that's at stake, is it?
  
  Expendable:  What on earth did you mean by " But what did she want to do?"

• anonymous said on Mar 10, 2009....

  What I hope is that this little girl is surrounded by people who deeply love her, will help her heal, and will explain to her that what happened was not her fault. I really hope she grows up to be a normal adult who overcomes this horror. I'd like to think and I want to believe that karma, or the idea of divine payback for one's evil acts is true and that the sick perp who did it pays dearly for this atrocity some day.

• beyondtheveil said on Mar 10, 2009....

  There is hypocrisy in almost everything including religion. For instance, the commandment Thou Shalt Not Kill. Well, that means killing should not be done - except in certain circumstances and you can do a whole lot of it. Also, there's an awful lot of killing going on in the Old Testament. Why an exception could not be made for this girl when exceptions can be made for just about any age after birth is beyond me. 

• HollyGoLightly said on Mar 10, 2009....

  as I said in my first post here, as usual, everyone blows this out of proportion. those of you who commented to me, obviously need to go back and re-read my post.
   
  *never once did I say whether I was for or against abortion~NEVER ONCE. so how do you know what I believe?
   
  *never once did I say the act & the suffering & damage it created to this innocent young girl of nine years old was ACCEPTABLE. never once.
   
  *never once did I say that I PERSONALLY FELT that she should be made to carry those babies! never once.
   
  *never once did I say that I AGREED with the position that the church has taken. You will find, if you re-read that I simply stated it was responding the way it HAS TO respond, because the church, here on earth, is responsible for keeping the commandments. SHOW ME ANY CHURCH (any true church) that's willing to stand in front of the world and say abortion is acceptable...
   
  *super* I find it particularly interesting that you anticipate my bringing God's will into this. where in my post did you find any shred of that trail of thought? how easily you have misunderstood everything I said, and charged me with your preconceived notions regarding my response.  if you have ever paid attention to any of my posts where religion is concerned, you will see that the FIRST thing I bring up is FREE WILL.  also, I never mentioned anything about judging. and I myself DID NO judging in my post. I simply stated the facts as they were. I see you are quick to accuse me of this...again you misunderstand. I wrote that I found the situation horrible for everyone involved. I never once sided with anyone, so I find it very interesting that you mistook it in that way, and decided I was a target for someone like you, who needed to get their frustrations out about this. And quoting scripture to me will get you nowhere. I've studied for a lifetime, and know it inside and out. I also know what I believe (which is not necessarily in line with any church), stand firmly in that belief, and know as I have always known, that I am more of a spiritual person than a "religious" person. There is a difference. I do have a "moral" compass, I never judge, not because it is a "religious" law, because that is the person that I am. I do not operate simply by laws of church, because to me, my personal spiritual relationship with God is the most important thing.  I find it laughable that this has become so blown out of proportion. If you read back, one of the most important parts of my post stated that above all, the mother (of the child) has her own free will. The church cannot FORCE her child to keep the babies. So what's the big controversy? She exercises her right, as she did, and everything is over...the side effect of being ex-communicated has no serious bearing on a truly faithful person, as it only means they cannot come back to church. It DOESN'T mean they have to stop believing, praying, communicating or living their lives with God.
   
  *pieter*~anyone ever suggest you take a chill pill? you sure have alot of pent up aggression that quickly found it's target, the moment I posted. again, you are one that has completely misunderstood the post I'd written. *suggestion*~ read my response above to *super*, then, add to that:
   
  * the fact that I never once stated that the child ( or anyone else involved) would be condemned! who am I to pre-suppose that?? and who are you too either for any of the opinions you stated?
   
  * I never once stated that the step-father wouldn't be judged (by God), or punished, (by God, or law). Of course he will be judged!!  He, hopefully, will receive the maximum punishment allowed by law (this is where my anger jumps in, because so often these monsters do not...), if it were my child, I would get to him before the law, (vigilante justice and mafia family is in my blood...see, you don't know me at all...) and there would be no chance of a wishy-washy, half-assed, veritably flawed justice "system" letting him off soft for this.  But, I also believe in God, so I believe that he will be punished eternally. It always seems to give one a great deal of satisfaction to know that an evil person will receive his just dues, and burn (for lack of a better expression) FOREVER into INFINITY.
  (BTW)~you should be more careful in your supposed understanding of people before you blast them. I have survived a lifetime of abuse, beginning when I was a small child. Of every kind. Including sexual. And spent the rest of my life trying to overcome it...so don't you tell me what you THINK of me, you don't know the first thing about me.
   
  * next~ your "little known fact" about the church is fatally flawed. again, you misunderstood. I don't care if you did hear it from a Jesuit scholar...you got it wrong ( and here I am refraining from referring to you as you referred to me, at your very base, intellectually barren, childish name-calling self.). The "rule" you are referring to is this:
   
  **if one commits a sin; whether it's a lie, or it's an abortion, whether it's coveting, or murder; that sin cannot be held against one who IS IGNORANT OF THE SIN.
  Meaning, if you do not know anything about religion, or God...if you've never been taught certain things, or, you just walked out of a tropical rain forest somewhere, YOU CANNOT BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO GOD FOR THE SINS YOU MAY HAVE COMMITED, AS YOU WERE INNOCENT OF THE FACT THAT IT WAS A SIN. THE FACT THAT YOU WERE IGNORANT OF THE LAW, THAT YOU WERE NEVER TAUGHT OR EXPOSED TO IT, WOULD NOT BE YOUR FAULT, THEREFORE, YOU WOULD BE ABSOLVED OF THE SIN.
   
  the way you have described it is ridiculous...any "scholar" (which I have been BTW), would tell you that. In your view, any nutter that runs the street, and shoots anyone in sight could only say, " I don't believe murder is a sin", and get away scot free in God's eyes?  Don't you think at that point, everyone would do it?
  Of course no one has heard of your "rule";  IT DOESN'T EXIST!!
   
  *lastly, you need to work on your posting skills. you seem to be very emotional, however, you let these emotions override your post so that it is the emotions that are noticed, and the point that is missed. you come off sounding explosive, uninformed, and childish, using name-calling and assumation, both causing any intelligent person to write you off as whack, and not take you seriously.
   
  ~*~Holly~*~

• one_wired_kitty said on Mar 10, 2009....

  Normally I would say carry the babies ... but the child is NINE. Neither her or the babies would survive. Let her have one (abortion).

• andora said on Mar 10, 2009....

  aloha everyone
  
  i'm just processing all of the comments before i go and get a much needed 2hr massage and treat myself to a beach day after a week of rain and clouds.
  
  this issue really hit home with me, since my ex husband raped my daughter....and then he denied it as he became a born again christian and taught sunday school. So, you may well understand that all of this is rising in my belly like a storm.
  
  I must say there is oh so much misunderstanding about judging others
  
  it is one thing to express our experience and the terrible emotions that arise when one is abused -- in any way....it is important to express our condemnation of these acts if we wish to be healthy. It was a very cathartic move for holygolightly to take the church's stand in the conversation....whether she/he agrees with them or not.
  
  the judgment part comes into play when a person acts upon their condemnation
  
  when i was awaiting the judges decision as to whether my ex-husband could share custody (bc the court didn't prosecute for rape....they called me and my daughter liars)....during this endless night, I had to decide whether or not to kill him, if in fact, the judge were to order me to allow him access to my other two children (his biological offspring -- my daughter was his stepdaughter). I had always been a paccifist in regard to retribution. In this case, I was considering self-defense - not just retribution. this evening of indecision changed my life forever....i contemplated murder bc i knew my children would at least be safe, even though i would be in jail!
  
  these are decisions no mother should ever have to make
  
  when it comes to expressing our experiences and our horror at the horrible injustice of those who over-ride the will of others, we have every right to express this as a way of exposing corruption and restoring justice. to accuse people of being judgmental as a way of shaming them into silence is heartless and uninformed, to say the least. judgment arises when a person acts upon their outrage and take matters of punishment into their own hands....such as holygolightly was claiming she would do. So, this is the judgment that belongs to god.
  
  me, i took my children away from there after standing up for myself and my children. then after 26 yrs the perpetrator admitted his crime. now my daughter can begin her healing process. I am grateful i did not have to kill, nor did i have to attempt any type of retribution. My only concern is to judge all men who take these actions for what they are: monsters....as for the punishment? it is up to me to thrive, as i have - he lives in hell every day of his life bc he remembers what he lost, what he did to us. After 26 yrs, i do not hate him, i hate all of them: he represents all of the men in the world who refuse to take responsibility for their sexual frustration and allow it to harm the world.
  
  this is why creating a new sexual ethic is what drives me in this, and all conversations bc the world needs new information about sexual frustration. the world needs to understand these issues from a combination of mental, emotional, spiritual, physical and social levels. As a species, we need to understand this gap and learn more about the sexual ethic that leads to this pandemic of abuse. By so doing, we are not judging others, we are acknowledging the truth as it stands, as a way of creating new understandings. So please spit, yell and accuse, it is a process we all deserve.
  
  mahalo for your aloha to all of the above contributors
  

• HollyGoLightly said on Mar 10, 2009....

  *andora*~
  it is with deep and heart-felt sorrow that I read your story
  and respectfully acknowledge what happened to your beautiful
  little girl, and the courage you had to take a stand for what was
  right and good. I am sending to both you and your daughter
  many, many *blessings**blessings**blessings* for the strength
  to continue to heal, the ability to reclaim her personal power,
  and the hope for trust and love in your lives again. I wish you
  both all the best. I know how hard the healing process is.
   
  (((hugs)))
   
  ~*~Holly~*~

• superbozo said on Mar 10, 2009....

  Hi Holly. Maybe I have misunderstood your inital comments. My gods will comment was a comment based upon what I thought you would answer rather than what you did answer, it was based upon my experience of conversations such as this that I have had with various people over the years and the replys I'm used to receiving.
  As for my "judge not" comment that was aimed at the archbishop and the church/situation as a whole. Not at you.
   I'll only quote you on one sentence here you said
  "and may be the church cannot force her to keep the babies. it is only doing what morally, we should expect it to do."
  That one line sent me over the edge. 
  My initial reaction here was aimed at the archbishop and the father not religion as a whole. I did deride the catholic church and the behavior of some priests it was a flippent comment (is that a word "flippent" I mean a throw away/f you type of comment) but its these double standards that even you see I think, that I was questioning. The doctor for one does not seem to care what the church thinks and is quoted as saying he will be at mass on sunday. I've commented on a few religious debates here but this is the first negative comment I've made (I think). Probably due to the negative no win situation this girl and her mother find themselves. Hope that clears things up a little.

• HollyGoLightly said on Mar 10, 2009....

  *super* the EXACT quote was this: "the church cannot force her to keep the babies; it is only doing what, morally, we should expect it to do..."
   
  I'm not sure why that particular line sent you "over the edge". breaking it down; "the church cannot force her to keep the babies..."  was part of my argument regarding free will. Put into context, my meaning was that, EVEN THOUGH the church says she cannot abort, the girl ( and her mother) have free will, meaning. the church cannot force her to keep the babies. i.e. ~ the mother of the girl may exercise her free will, decide to have the abortion, and that's that. No problem, no controversy.   the rest of it; "the church is only doing what, morally, we should expect it to do..." was simply an observation of churches and "biblical law" in general. i.e.; we should EXPECT that to be the response from the church. from ANY church. there has never been any church I know of in my time that will condone abortion. the Catholic church is an easy target.
   
  glad you were able to understand my initial comments better. it's nice to have an intelligent give & take with someone even if we agree to disagree.
   
  *peace*

• Expendable said on Mar 10, 2009....

  Kruu, I believe in choice, so I'm against forced pregnancy, especially after what she went through. But even though she's a child, it's stlll her body, her choice. I was curious about what she wanted.

• superbozo said on Mar 10, 2009....

  I think the problem as I see it is the excommunication. You mentioned free will of the doctors and mother to make this choice. I agree with you there. You have also clarified your comment "the church is only doing, what morally, we should expect it to do" That I can understand too. As for the "no problem, no controversy" as outside observers that comment is also true. Except for the Mother and the child. Neither of us really know how this is compounding the pain and anguish they already feel. I have seen the pain excommunication can put on some people. You and I have the knowledge and insight that allows us to seperate God and Church.

  Some people see their Church as their connection to God and excommunication gives these people a true feeling of guilt and failure as they see it in the eyes of God (if thats the case here it's compounding an already horrendous situation for the mother and her daughter). It is here where I question the churches morale compass. They talk of Jesus, but seem incapable of following Jesus's example. The question that *andora* initally asked was "do the church have the moral high ground on this decision?"

  *kruuyai* probably answered it best when she said "they sure shine the spotlight on the wrong stage, don't they?"

  With all the things that the church could have commented on. The Archbishop in question here should maybe have allowed himself a dignified silence instead of jumping into the debate while the press was still focused on what this poor child is going through. I have no idea if he was asked to comment or just put his opinion in. That has always been the modern churches problem to a certain extent as I see it. I think he picked a very bad time and a very bad situation. I'm sure there are other women in Brazil that have had abortions for health reasons the church has never bought these into the spotlight as far as I'm aware. Or at least not enough for the whole world to find out about and comment on anyway.

  *peace out*

• Expendable said on Mar 11, 2009....

  Most of us here think the archbishop is wrong for excommunicating the mother and the doctors, and it's not hard to do with the few details we've got. So we speak out.

  But isn't that what the church is doing too? They think the doctors and mother are wrong and they're speaking out, just like we're doing. And if you think excommuincation is too extreme, go re-read some of the replies above.

  The church knows she's too young to deliver a baby naturally, which is why they wanted a c-section. Because of a ruling by Pope Gregory XIV in 1590, abortion is wrong after 16 weeks (an earlier Papal Bull said it was wrong at any time, he changed it). And she's four months pregnant. So the church's position is plain. They have to protest.

  And the newspapers get to sell the same story a few more times. But does anyone bring up Pope Gregory XIV? That would spoil things.

• andora said on Mar 12, 2009....

  I must give my thanks to all of the heartfelt comments about this tragedy
  
  in my, not so humble opinion, there is no moral high ground in a broken paradigm....
  
  what any of us believes is "right" or "wrong", "moral" or "immoral" is lost in the broken paradigm i call The Battle of the Sexes. It ALWAYS leads to these types of scenarios, yet we spend our precious resources damning and blaming everyone, except the one perpetrating the acts against children and the women they are shunning ---- that's right, the mother in these situations is as culpable as the father! Even though he is the violater, she is the one who secretly hates her body to the point he will not touch it! body hatred and sexual shame design your world - it is hell on earth!
  
  The sexuality of humans comes from a misunderstanding that creates hell on earth. Instead of questioning our ideas/paradigm, we wage hopelessness: neglect and war.
  
  I understand the ideas that lead to incest and will continue to council myself to be patient with those that are so deeply indoctrinated in an illusion that they refuse to question the very premise that has them locked into the ways of war/incest/shame.
  
  many of you believe i ramble on about these things as a way of suggesting that your are "wrong" and i am "right". I constantly attempt to change the language to one that doesn't demonize one class as a way of elevating another.....alas, i have failed to take this conversation out of the box. Instead of banishing the illusion of others, I have only succeeded in creating a life that is real satisfying, while having wayyy toooo much pity and compassion for the willfully ignorant.
  
  Even though i have qualified my Point of View, in that i am directly involved with the pattern of incest/pedophilia, seems to mean very little in bringing any focus to the mess. The lines have all been drawn, the culprits will be rounded up and we will pay for their incarceration for the rest of forever. not! there are much deeper issues at play here....yet the language of shame/blame, right/wrong has effectively controlled the direction. We have no agreement, and therefore will never move forward and evolve as a species. Doom and Gloom is the solution and losing these freakin unresponsive bodies for some wooo wooo after life is the hypnotic mantra of the sheople.
  
  sucks to be the living dead
  
  trying to figure out who to blame, who to kill, who not to kill
  
  meanwhile Dawone, a humble citizen of the Earth understands the difference between illusion and reality and is able to LIVE SELF DETERMINATION in his very real ability to practice dignified spiritual birthcontol. His revelation changes nothing for those who have already given up the ghost and are busy justifying thier grip on hopelessness!
  
  while all the sheople try to figure out who to assassinate!
  
  a circular firing squad
  
  not that i don't care about you and your points of view....after being here for over 2 years i witness the collective love that desires justice and freedom here, yet you are all enslaved to such dead ideas it is hard to join in with the warm and fuzzy talk about your illusions
  
  sucks to be the living dead
  
  please choose life
  

• superbozo said on Mar 12, 2009....

  Hi andora. Thanks for the link I have downloaded the free chapters to read later. Your story also truely moved me also. I should clarify (not sure why) that when I said religious journey I should have stated spiritual journey. I have no connection to any denomination that can be classified as religion. When I talk of god I do not consider god a man, but as energy.

   Coming to soulcast has made me realise that my spirtual journey is ongoing (I really thought I knew it all. It's obvious I don't. How could anyone be stupid enough to think they know everything :) Your comment "I constantly attempt to change the language to one that doesn't demonize one class as a way of elevating another" is a language I need to learn I think. Thank you for your insight.

   

• satanx said on Mar 13, 2009....

  If the child was raped and is going to have twins along with putting the girls life in danger then abortion would be the only smart path to take. The "father" should go to prison for at least 20 years. The Catholic church will of course turn a blind eye to the pedo rape. The church is the true ANTI-CHRIST. How cold one think otherwise?

• FRIT76 said on Mar 13, 2009....

  Let us shoot pedos dead. The pope is pro pedo.

• anonymous said on Mar 13, 2009....

  That fuckin skank got what she deserved. I hope her abortion is botched. She's nothing but a cheap slut and deserves to be raped.

• Expendable said on Mar 14, 2009....

  Wow. I guess you missed the church condemning the stepfather for raping his adopted children.

• andora said on Mar 15, 2009....

  expendable,
   it was hard to witness the church's condemnation of the father if it did not also have ex-communication -- now that holygolightly pointed out the difference between breaking man's laws and breaking god's laws, i am not as outraged as i originally was. this is the way a good argument should go. i may not have expressed my ideas in regard to holygolightly's info as of yet as this is all brewing a brewhaha in my belly. i have been in a deep depression along with inclement weather that has me stuck indoors. bad mix, kinda like the Credence Clearwater song 'Bad Moon Rising'. thanks for speaking up
  
  superbozo,
  
  after reading my words above, i flinched -- i must apologize for my rancor in regard to this issue. my usage of 'you' this, and 'you' that, makes me regret the way i worded the above message. This has been one of the most invaluable aspects of communicating in a community such as this, the ability to see my own shortcomings in my communication style. I came to SC spewing so much rage and indignation i was oh so grateful to get the feedback that enabled me to see this about myself. i practice how to communicate in this forum and i evolve rapidly, painfully so at times.
  
  For many years i complained about these things with others that agreed with my point of view....here, i am able to reach out to those who do not share my world view. As a result of hurling my ukka around, i was able to locate real souls locked into the same house of mirrors -- attempting to make sense of the polarization. the principle of panGasm points out the polarization as the 'thing' that is harassing the conversation....much more than the personalities were intending. When we raise each others emotions, particularly the emotions that are being held in a state of denial, we raise one-anothers' vibration. The denied stuff feels horrible and usually gets blamed upon the personalities instead of the language they are operating with. the principle of panGasm is called the language of shamelessness and is designed to create intimacy and agreement....sometimes, the only way to get to that heart-space is to argue mercilessly, as we do here regularly.
  
  i have had many troubles taking the alts of those who have polarized in opposition to my pov seriously and witlessly attempt to express the information about this principle. ends with me getting set up - therefore i fall into a paranoid trap of speaking defensively more than what i intend.
  
  mahalo for your aloha
  
  
  
  

• andora said on Mar 15, 2009....

  fritt,
  as u may know by now, i do not advocate violence for any reason. even though i lusted for the ability to murder the man that harmed my children, i never took any action, except to protect my children by removing him from our life. if i were to catch him, or the judge were to give my children to him, it would be my duty as a mother to kill. thank goodness, standing up for my children worked in the legal system, (or at least relatively so). i understand the pedophile more than i would want to, and at this time in my evolution, i see them as a reactionary dilemma to the dysfunctional truth that these persons were taught much the same way i see the reflection of severe drug addiction in our society. these unfortunate souls are locked into a reality that kills their heart....if they were to understand the nature of the biology that constitutes their own body, perhaps they would choose life, instead of perversion, depravity and iniquity! We will not know until the dominant paradigm shifts....until the language of the masses evolves into a place of understanding about the elements that shape their world and how these elements were designed to make the personality sovereign: WHAT YOU BELIEVE BECOMES TRUE
  
  in essence, the group idea creates demons....even the so-called compassionate 'do-gooders' are perpetrators (of course they have no idea, or they would stop contributing to the problem). Many of these demons are held present by the do-gooders because they have skewed ideas of love that make a place for this.
  
  thankyou for speaking up fritt
  

• andora said on Mar 15, 2009....

  anonymous said:
  
  "That fuckin skank got what she deserved. I hope her abortion is botched. She's nothing but a cheap slut and deserves to be raped."
  
  most people would agree that your input is harmful and should be censored, because of this misunderstanding, your voice has never been part of the conversation.....you are the missing link to understanding the entire picture of pedophilia and rape. there is universal agreement that your voice is the voice of the demonic realm -- which explains your need to use anonymous as your identifier.
  
  i must admit that reading your words has caused me to relate to the murderess i could have been. i will not attempt to school you about your pov, i will instead, use you as an example of what i call the 'psychopathic killer'. The women that i pray with, we know your presence well....we have been studying your pattern, studying your Original Cause. We know what formed you, in this, we know you better than u know yourself. We are also aware of the way in which you have fragmented into countless bodies that have no access to an electromagnetic energy called "L" energy. This is the special wave-length of the human heart that is possible to measure -- it is a fact in other words. As a result, the 'psychopathic killer' is incapable of feeling good, in fact has never experienced this ambient energy. these mutant cripples only have access to their adrenaline gland as a means of feeling anything remotely resembling pleasure. As their resistence to this means of feeling increases, they need more stimulus, much like a drug addict. However, the 'psychopathic killer' is not a drug addict....he is an illusion of a human being that is being manifest by 'denied sexual frustration' that is being denied so universally that it creates this mutant Intimidating Form. this one missing link has made it veritably impossible to resolve the age old Battle of the Sexes! this combined with what the daughter did is the most toxic paradox of the ages. This is why there is a frenzy occurring around the world by this sub-human presence, it is in our face; it is in our media..Nancy Grace is convulsing daily about this torturous reality.
  
  The group idea is broken
  
  once the honesty is adopted by those who are real, those who have access to their heart, then the other presence will be exposed
  
  THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS ONLY HINDERED THIS
  
  they are culpable
  

• andora said on Mar 15, 2009....

  does anyone know what the % of catholic church predation was against girls and what % were boys? 

• andora said on Mar 19, 2009....

  there is a part of me that wants to apologize for allowing the demonic to speak here, as i have above
  
  i allowed its voice as a demonstration of the Battle of the Sexes and what i am speaking of when i use the term "Un-mitigated Duality"
  
  we have all been taught to understand that we are dual in nature....i.e. = yinyang, dark/light, positive/negative. We have been misled to believe that what we are currently calling duality of being is normal, however,  what we have been universally agreeing is normal duality, the normal 'Human Condition' is a perversion of our birthright. Today's world is demonstrating "un-mitigated" duality, or Heartlessness. This conundrum has designed a tortuous, violent reality that we have been calling 'normal'. read more about the energetic matrix that helps a body be sound.
  
  read more about the particles that form our physical world, more about the biology that is aching to support our Free Will and the sovereignty we each crave here
  
  mahalo for your aloha
  

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