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Obama Ushers in Socialism & Totalitarian Rule

D6fer posted on Feb 04, 2009 | views: 1058 | Tags: politics, stimulus, Ripoff, Obama, pork, socialism, strings attached, mixednuts, Right, Good News, right is right, consequences, penalties, loshan
In typical Hugo Chavez fashion, today president Obama instituted a pay cap of $500,000 on executives for companies that were receiving taxpayer money. While that makes us all feel warm and fuzzy in a "stickin it to the man" sort of way.....it is also a big power grab on the Presidents part, and a very Socialist move.

You may say that this is a good thing, but consider this: YOU COULD BE NEXT!
What kind of caps and regulations will we all be facing very soon?

Caps on freedom and liberty.....they are eroding before our very eyes.

Are you too blinded with Obama love to see?

Ask yourself these questions:

Is he keeping his promises?

Is he really doing what is in the best interest of this nation?

Is this new "stimulus" Bill really going to stimulate the economy? Or just the pockets of his contributors and support chain?

If you believed that Bush was wrong for implementing the first bailout, surely you must see this one as an even bigger mistake!

This is wrong and we need to stop it.....Contact your representatives immediately and express your opinion before it's too late.


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Comments

  • beyondtheveil said on Feb 04, 2009....
    This is wrong and we need to stop it? This is what you have to complain about?

    I am endlessly amazed how you and your far right are totally blinded at what bush & company did to this country and our liberties.
  • D6fer said on Feb 05, 2009....
    I happen to agree that Bush did some real damage to the country....especially in his final days......I don't think we need a continuation of those failures....do you?
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 05, 2009....

    "Obama Ushers in Socialism & Totalitatian Rule"

     Yes, fantastic isn't it?  You people must be thrilled to the eyeballs.  I know I am.  Fuck Wall Street and all those blood sucking worms... to hell with 'em!!!   It's about time someone took those parasites to task.  Personally I think he ought to back date his measures.  I'd like to see him be able to fire some of these greedy pigs.    This is simply wonderful,  heroic!!

  • PieterOpie said on Feb 05, 2009....
    Why is my entire post above a link????   It was unintentional.   
  • secretlife said on Feb 05, 2009....
    D6-  I don't see this as such a bad thing because he's doing it to those institutions who have taken money from us taxpayers-  and if you want a bailout, I think it's a really good idea to put salary/bonus caps in place.
     
    what i do find a bit disturbing this week tho, are obama's choices in cabinet members who are nothing more than tax cheats and the message that sends out to us "regular" joes-
    Geithner is probably THE most powerful man today, and in charge of the agency he himself cheated multiple times.
    As if that wasn't bad enough, then we had Daschle-  and i think the outcry was too great for Obama to ignore, although i have no doubt without the outcry he would have-  And now I heard about Nancy Killefer, who failed for a year and a half to pay employment taxes on household help..
     
    these cannot cannot cannot be the only folks that are qualified for the job---- don't tell me there are no honest men/women left in this country-
     
    There just can't be one set of rules for the rich/powerful and one for the regular folk- 
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 05, 2009....
    Let he who has a perfect tax record (and has never cheated even a little) throw the first rubber cheque. 


  • beyondtheveil said on Feb 05, 2009....
    d6- To answer your question, no, I certainly don't want a continuation of his failures. But I see many other things much more important than a temporary cap on a few people under explicit conditions. secretlife mentioned a few. Then there is that second bailout which is not what we need at the moment, and we need something effective very quickly or it will be too late. These are things I consider worthy of shouting about.

    I am also endlessly amazed at congress no matter who is in charge. They deserve the confidence rating they have of no more than the fingers of both hands.
  • pickersplock said on Feb 05, 2009....
    Hey, did you guys know our "Stimulus Package" also includes a bailout for Hollywood?
    I'd like to know if they're getting a salary cap too..............
  • curmudgeon said on Feb 05, 2009....
    Seems to me the words "effective" and "quick" don't go together well, especially where government spending is concerned.

    Funny how Obama didn't go to Congress with this salary cap. He just imperiously took out his pen and wrote in the maximum income one can make while on Federal Aid. Moreover, these CEOs are just going to get compensation above 500k some other way.

    This is nothing more than Presidential showboating to please the witless liberal base.
  • secretlife said on Feb 05, 2009....
    Pieter:  i refuse to lower my standards.  i don't cheat on my taxes, and i don't expect my government officials to cheat on theirs either.  in fact, i expect them to be the MODELS for the rest of us.  Let's not lower the bar any further, please.
     
    with your logic, the next thing you'll be trying to tell me is that two "wrongs" make a "right"-
     
    I'm not in favor of this latest bailout at ALL-  900 billion and a president urging us to go "fast".......almost like saying that we don't have time to read and understand the fine print.  The only people I know who would do that are scheister lawyers who are trying to fool or trick me-  Any reasonable and honest person would not object to taking time to actually UNDERSTAND what's exactly in that bailout-
     
  • Twylarants said on Feb 05, 2009....
    Hilda Solis
    Tom Daschle
    Tim Geithner
    Leon Panetta
    Nancy Killefer

    Jeez Louise!   A couple more of these nominees pay the taxes they owe and the IRS will be able to fund the whole damn stimulus package itself.
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 05, 2009....
    SecretLife:  Hold your horses ma'am!!  I am no condoning officials who cheat at all.  I am merely suggesting that lots of people try to "minimise" their tax bill by telling a few white lies.  I usually never bothered because the small gain was not worth the risk and our Tax people are not as scary as yours are.  I expect all politicians to be as pure as virgin snow.  That being insanely impractical I want them to be as honest as possible.... which is a nebulous description I know but these are politicians we are talking about.   It's like saying that a killer is a good killer if he kills quickly and painlessly.  It's very similar.  Truly honest and decent people don't see to go into politics.

    In any case everyone's tax records can be examined so no one is going to get away with anything.  So there you have it.  I can forgive an "oversight" or a "late return" etc..  They can all be put right and will be.  Of course if it was an Australian politician trying a stint like this I'd want him locked up, but it is your problem so I am prepared to be very forgiving.  After Bush anyone looks like a angel to me as they ought to do to you.

    Count your blessings..... you don't have that many.
  • stopmediabias said on Feb 05, 2009....

    I didn't agree with the first bailout but I could see the reason for it.  These banks were encouraged to take risky loans by the government.  The problem here is the first bailout or stimulous didn't work.  Now we have thrown together a modest amount of tax cuts with a big fat pile of Liberal wishes.  This is so wrong right now and this is why in the House every Republican and some Democrats shot it down.

    The fact that government encouraged these banks to make risky loans which is what brought on this financial crisis means they have no business dictating anything to the private sector.  This speech by President Obama about bonuses is just political grandstanding because he knows the bonus headline is going to piss everyone off.  Why didn't he bitch about Franklyn Raines who left Fannie Mae in shambles as he pocketed millions of dollars?  Why is Barney Frank still in office?  Why is Chris Dodd still in office? 

    But the main question not answered here is will this porky stimulous package that shells out millions to liberal causes, is that going to get us out of this mess?  We Conservatives know the answer.

  • dyingman said on Feb 05, 2009....
    Don't want to accept the salary cap?
    Easy, don't take my money.

    This isn't a good plan though.
    The lowest rank that ISN'T under the 500k cap will suddenly balloon to millions and the people who used to be under the cap will be demoted.

    Puppets will populate the positions that are deemed top tier.

    Id much sooner require companies that are saved because they were too big to fail to be split up so that 3 of the four pieces that result are small enough to let the free market kill them if they take stupid chances.

    As for socialism... didn't the country get [partial ownership of these companies as part of the deal.  Something like 80% of insurance giant AIG?

    When the government owns businesses, THAT's socialism.

    And that, buddy boy, was BUSH.

    I'd like to see Congressmen get no more than 10x minimum wage though.
    Maybe they'd be a little more sensitive to economic hardship if their fates were tied to the least fortunate among us.

  • PieterOpie said on Feb 05, 2009....
    Americans fear the word "socialism" intensely.  That is the fault of previous governments in the USA who were fighting a cold war with Communists.  Communism is extreme socialism and more.  With Communism the state owns all industry and regulates everything towards one centralised goal - the overthrow of the biggest threat to their lives and very existence - America.  Their entire society was geared to the defeat of the enemy and the defence of their own lot.  Since the threat was real they had little choice but to continue with their ill-planned game until America using underhanded trickery caused the Soviets to go broke.  America won the cold war by default because they went bankrupt.  Their problem was that they were ridiculously corrupt and not terribly popular at home because the people always came last in their considerations.  It is a drag to wave a flag enthusiastically when you are weak with hunger or are badly bruised from a recent "interview" by the KGB.

    America controlled its masses differently.  It allowed free speech and simply forged ahead despite any protests and rewarded the people with all manner of gadgets and toys which their industry made available to them.  It was easy to believe that they were the greatest thing on earth and nothing could beat or defeat it.  What they did not tell the people is that the cost of this disgustingly disproportionate consumerism and mass self-indulgence came at an enormous cost.  America was definitely successful - no question but it used more energy and oil to fuel this opulence than all the countries of the world combined and spewed out an equal amount of filth and pollution and produced enough waste to make another continent somewhere.  God knows where it all is. One the oceanic shelf, in hidden land-fills, I can't imagine.... 

    The rest of the world had to just sit by and watch this endless cycle of buying, using and indulging and wasting until it drove us mad.  Things were designed to break in so many years so you had to replace it.  In earlier days things could be repaired but now most things are discarded and replaced.  Nobody seemed to realise that the world was finite.  You people were using up most of the resources and oil and before long there would be nothing left long before the rest of humanity had a chance to catch up.  Apparently you were not concerned with that minor detail.  You were selfishly and blissfully "unaware".  In short you didn't give a fuck. I was lucky and lived in a country that was well on track with the American Dream.... except we were awake at least part of the time.  You slumbered away and just dreamed on. 

    Somehow all this rampant unfettered capitalism was not enough for some ultra-greedy leeches and now we find ourselves in the reality of the consequences of all this self-indulgence.  You allowed it.  You died for it.  You believed it it and even now there are those who want to continue to do it all over again.   They believe you want to let them.  They think it is so ingrained into the mindset of Americans that they will undoubtedly try to repeat it until they are put out of business for good.

    This is where socialism - NOT communism -  comes in.  Many European countries are a blend of regulated capitalism and some socialism.  They are not pure socialist. There they keep a close eye on their businesses and banks so that the Wall Street scandal cannot happen.  Unfortunately the global market caused everyone to get dragged into the same mess and now we - the whole world is in the soup - all because of your greedy parasites in New York.  AGAIN the rest of the world suffers deprivation due to your system and carelessness.

    Personally I am pretty fed up with America.  I have never been a great fan of your nation.  I have hoped for this sort of collapse for decades.  hehe....  I had no idea it would happen in my lifetime.  I am glad I was well prepared and personally am hardly affected.  But if you are now in dire straights.... oh well, that's a shame.

    You should embrace socialism.  It will save your undeserving skins if it gets off the ground.  Frankly I foresee much trouble for your country.  The troubles have only just begun.  You are due for a second wave which will be much more devastating than the first loans catastrophe.  Hold on tight! It's going to get bumpy and bleak.   I will be watching from the outside......
  • secretlife said on Feb 05, 2009....
    I wish you'd shut up.
     
    any person who says they're happy to see a collapse of our economy is an asshole in my opinon.
     
     
  • satanx said on Feb 05, 2009....

    put this name in the search box on the upper right and click it on. I RULE THE EARTH!

    loshan

    loshan

    loshan

    loshan

    loshan

    In the end you will plead with Obama

  • catch22 said on Feb 05, 2009....
    I was looking at the mixednuts posting today and most people hate Bush.
    Bush strip raped America of our freedom and liberty long before Obama came to town. The bailout was a Bush scam. Obama only raised the price tag.. Obama needs time. We need to give it to him. Why did Americans kiss Bush on the rump anyway? We do have our guns though.
  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 05, 2009....

    No I'm not to blinded to see what is happening.

    Yes Obama is keeping his promises (more than not anyway and it's really early to be bringing that up anyway.)

    He's probably doing what's in the best interest of the nation.  We're not sure yet.

    We don't know yet if this is going to help everybody or just a few.  Nobody really knows.

    This is the same bail out as the Bush bailout.  This isn't a different or new bailout. This is the Bush Bail out.  Dear god tell me you knew that already.

    Thank god for the salary caps on anybody making MY money.  He fucked up the only reason we aren't kicking him out on his ass is because we honor contracts.  It's not socialism, it's paying them what they are worth to the government.  If they want to make umpteen billion then they should stay in good financial states and not need bail out money. 

    When he starts putting caps on reasonably competent people tell me and I'll join your side.

  • Expendable said on Feb 05, 2009....
    $700 billion of taxpayer got paid out to banks who said they desperately needed the money. But instead of being responsible, many paid themselves $18 billion in bonuses. You don't spend $40 million for a corporate jet if you're desperate for money, sorry. Many of us demanded oversight and got shot down. This is the result. What Obama's signed about salary caps doesn't affect those who've got their money already. Its for the next group who come in, hat in hand, to beg for taxpayer money to bail them out. And don't forget - the cap ends the moment they pay the government back. Shouldn't that be encouragement?
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 05, 2009....
    Yes you have all those guns.  What a blessing that is.  It was a right guaranteed in your constitution at a time when you had been fighting the English.  Remember when your forefathers committed high treason against George the fifth, King of England and your legal and sovereign monarch at the time and seduced you into a mutinous war of rebellion.  The first example of might makes right in your ignominious history.  Those unscrupulous slave owners decided it best to let you all keep guns in the house in case England sent an armada to reclaim their territory.  It never happened and the right to keep arms was never repealed.  That was a monumental mistake of course.  You all know what lunacy has resulted from this madness since. 

    Soon your economy will suffer collapse number two - a truly devastating event when no amount of cash fresh off the press will help drag you out of the gloomy vortex. This is will be accompanied with all kinds of businesses and companies giving up the ghost and lying down to die. Obviously many many jobs will become a thing of the past and lots of people will be seriously pressed to feed their families. How long can the state support so many people when so amny of the states are already broke and unable to pay their workers - everything from teachers to policemen.  uh oh.... No police?    OK... time to call in the army....

    OK I am beginning to scare myself now, so I'll stop here.  You get the idea of how bad thing could get in a time of extreme desperation.

    It might never happen.  Maybe the second wave of loan defaults will be OK.

    Oh.... and SecretLife, America has been walking all over foreign countries and exploiting people and bombing countries out of existence ever since WW1.  I have little sympathy for your evil bully-boy nation.  Your selfishness deserves no sympathy especially since it is your own who caused this.  You have caused the global economy to collapse and you want love and respect?  HA!!!!   Good luck.  Sort it out.  Your ignorance and indulgence will be payed for by your children and grand children.  I hope they understand what happened.  Ask them for respect and sympathy.  I am glad your feast is over.  You deserved 9/11 and now you deserve this. 

    If my views bother you DON'T READ THEM and live in eternal ignorent bliss... well, not so blissful.  Perhaps D6fer will block me too now.  Meanwhile live with it.  I blame your Republican Party mostly.  It is up to you to see why. 

    You can always just nuke the world and end it.  The world has been living with that threat ever since you vaporised two Japanese cities full of civilians.  Who are the real terrorists?  In the words of the ever elusive Osama bin Laden.... "Death to America"    - Oh.... and Santa.... Oh and Walt Disney and Coka Cola and IBM and Microsoft.... blah blah blah.......  (Not Apple/Mac)


    I love Freedom of Speech  - don't you?    MHUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

    EAT SHIT AND DIE WANKERS!!!!!    IT'S YOUR OWN FAULT!!!

    Please Note:  Democrat Voters are excluded from the above attack.  I like normal reasonable Americans.   I live with one.  It's the right wing christian conservative lunatic fascist arseholes that I can't stand.  
  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 05, 2009....
    700 Billion was not awarded!  Only half ot it went out.  What Obama is spending is the other half of what was already approved!!!  Holy shit you fucking idiots try to keep up.
  • bloc said on Feb 05, 2009....
    It is perfectly reasonable to put conditions on money given out. It's our money. Calling this totalitarianism is retarded, especially when you were silent on stripping due process rights from an american under Bush. 
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 05, 2009....
    Bushism was much closer to totalitarianism actually.  He was certainly closer to tyranny.   "You are either with us or against us."    WTF?
  • ALIENated said on Feb 05, 2009.... 
    
Good God. We are doomed. Listening to all this stupidity. That is all I can
think. We are doomed. OhBummer got elected because blacks think he is
black (maybe 1/16, and why should that matter, I thought we were all
supposed to be color blind) and because he approves of murdering babies
and sexual perversion -- the liberal litmus tests. Bush strip raped America of
our freedom and liberty long before Obama came to town? What absolute
bull crap. All this drivel just proves what a good job liberals are doing as
far as indoctrinating our school children. The first wave has made it into
their 30s and 40s and stupidity reigns. Am I the only one that notices that
Democrats think all this money should go back to "the people" (yeah right,
maybe to each congressman's pet project), but they are rarely willing to
just lower taxes and let "the people" keep it if they earned it? Am I the
only one that sees OhBummer and his Democrat scumbags paying back 
their debts for getting elected (to Hollywood, etc.)? As long as people 
can keep killing their babies and sucking what they should not be sucking, 
everything is just alright. Right? God help us.
  • D6fer said on Feb 05, 2009....
    Peter.......funny how you always bring up how America is bringing down the world economy, but fail to mention the flipside of how America helped build that economy.....If we can destroy it, then we made it....you enjoyed it too....you are a hypocrite.

    Some of you missed the point that I made about Bush starting this mess.....this is not about personalities, but actions.

    Like I said in the post....government imposed limits on income is a socialist move....if not Stalinist......this is why these stimulus packages are such a bad idea....if we had not started down this road, there would have been some pretty massive failures of some banks and corporations, but then the free market would have done what it does best and liquidated the remains and other banks and corporations would have gobbled them up.

    bloc....good god man....that is ridiculous.....I think you should petition the government to allow you to keep Khalid Sheik Mohamed in your home under your supervision....hell...someone has got to do something with all those gitmo terrorists that you are so fond of.


  • kelly said on Feb 05, 2009....
    Since when is placing restrictions on hand outs socialism?  That sounds more like a conservative idea to me.  Am I missing something here?
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 05, 2009....
    D6fer:  Yeah like America invented capitalism and banking.  They did not.  My forefathers did.... the Dutch.  It might have been better if they had held on to New Amsterdam - New York to you.  Instead those dreadful English pig dogs sailed into the harbour with hundreds of warships and stole it.  That is where some of the trouble began.

    IF America helped to build a global economy you can be sure it did so with pure selfish intent.  Since when has America ever done anything anywhere anytime that was not ultimately in Americas's best interest. 

    Look.... just apologise...  be humble.  Try it.  just once....
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 05, 2009....
    EVERYTHING BAD ON EARTH IS AMERICA'S FAULT!!!!!   WE WANT COMPENSATION.  signed The World.
  • stopmediabias said on Feb 06, 2009....

    This was not a failure of capitalism it was a failure of America attempting socialism.  When we put Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac under a government charter that was the beginning of the end.  Now all we are trying to do is plug all the holes when we should let the system collapse take all this bailout and stimulous money and put it towards large scale tax cuts, that's what worked in the past and that's what will work now, not this 900 billion Liberal wishlist. 

    Consveratives hate socialism because it simply does not work effectively in a free market system.  While the motives for creating a socialism maybe noble at the highest degree people should fail or succeed based on their own hard work not government intervention and of course this is not absolute and there are occasions where government should intercede. 

  • PieterOpie said on Feb 06, 2009....
    You're clearly deranged and there is no point talking to you.  There should be a massive purge to rid the country of your type.  You are a danger to humanity.  In the meantime - SHUT UP FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!   You irritant. 
  • GrapeKoolaid said on Feb 06, 2009....
    You're kidding me, right? 

    These corporate fatcats are lucky that they're not dragged out into the street, shot in the head and kicked in the ditch. 

    Damn right there should be a cap on their bonuses.  Especially if that money's coming out of the taxpayer's pockets. 

    I've asked this question and no one has been able to give me a satisfactory answer. 

    What kind of a jacked up system privatizes the rewards and makes public the risk?!!!  What kind of a messed up combination of capitalism and socialism is that?!!  Don't talk to me about free-market capitalism.  What we had (and still have) is furthest thing from that. 

    I think we should have let these industries fail.  We shouldn't have bailed them out at all.  If they fail due to maleficence and greed, why should the people pay for corporate jets, retreats and fancy garbage cans? 

    How is true innovation supposed to take place?  How can new, better models compete with entrenched multi-national conglomerates (who have absolutely no national loyalties, btw.  Only loyalties they have are to the board members and shareholders)? 

    Pfft.  Don't tell me we're ushering in socialism now.  We've had it for a long time.  If you think otherwise, you're deluding yourself. 
  • mixednuts said on Feb 06, 2009....
    perhaps I'm one of the "fucking idiots", but The Bush slob started this bailout mess. His zillion dollar war of lies brought on this situation. "isms" aren't always bad iether. China is doin pretty fuckin good. China owns America. Only people with the brains of a poly wog can't see the truth. We have our guns, and that makes us FREE.
  • mixednuts said on Feb 06, 2009....
    Instead of handing 900B to the fat cats lets give each and every American one billion dollars, or 300 billion. This will save America money, and the problem will be over. The banks and stuff don't plan to pay it back anyway! We have  printing presses, so let's just make a zillion, gillion dollars!
  • andora said on Feb 06, 2009....
    zimbabwe took 12 zeros off of their currency!

    I guess it's not surprising that the neo-con supporters here at SoulCast are using outmoded generalizations to continue debunking any moves to help the populace. you guys are too defensive to open to the truth...you are wasting precious energy defending the indefensible. you better get to know your neighbors better, bc unfortunately, PieterO is talking sense to you about the next wave of results that come from opulant narccissistic greed. I've been blocked from many of these blogs PO simply because many here wish to continue to live in the illusion that collapsed their system. business as usual will kill all of the neo-cons and all of those who co-signed their heartless agenda.

    I have not been hurt by all of this even though I am an American. I saw this coming like a slow moving train. and when i tried to warn people about what was moving toward them, they just demonized and blocked me, called me mean. those that back the bush agenda and continue to defend it are really the meanies here. I get no pleasure from their pain, but at the same time, I hate what they stand for. give 840 billion to wall street with no oversight and then bitch about attempts made to keep states and families afloat. these people don't understand what they are about to be dealling with as they come here and crow about thier economic expertise! give me a break! u can't even spell totalitarian D6...maybe its because Rove taught you that totalitarianism is called Conservatism.

    If you can't SEE for yourself that the neo-con game plan is bankrupt, then you deserve to be surrounded by the desperate masses that are considering familicide...got body bags?
  • starchini said on Feb 06, 2009....
    hes been president like a week...its a bit soon to say hes not keeping his promises.  Hes president, not a magician...
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 06, 2009....
    I am still waiting.......  Are you people going to apologise for ruining our economy as well?   Our government (Australia) has had to go into debt last week and we are not happy!!!!  
    First you drag us into Iraq and now THIS!!!!!  Not to mention having to endure torture like that dreadful TV show "Lost" and any number of other unbearable rubbish!!!   This is really stretching relations you know......    GRRRRRRRR
  • andora said on Feb 06, 2009....
    apologize to Aussies for what? they're a bunch of wannabe pinheads! They are like the retarded twin of the US!

    any numbskull could easily find out why the world is in an economic collapse...go no further than the banking laws that encircle the world. Its called 10% fractional banking...everybank that follows the IMF and the World Banking laws knows that they are designed to fail, after they get all your money. All this went on in plain sight as CEO's and execs drained the profits off the tops of their corporations. This is all in plain sight and now you all act so fucking surprised and start pointing your fingers at other countries bc you were too fucking lazy to educate yourselves! Blaming the US will never solve anyone's problems bc nationalism does not exist. did you hear me? you all think you live in sovereign countries? that's the big joke here.

    there are a few people in the world who coreograph these events and they stay in business bc they successfully pit people like Pieter against people like D6. chasing tails theoretically is probably for those who cannot have decent sex any longer! Me? I'd rather chase someone else's tail for the big O, rather than box with imaginary villains. In my not so humble opinion the real villain is hopelessness, shame and blame. keeps people from taking care of what is really important. got water? got food for your children and pets? famine is not a story book told to scare little children...it is already at your doorstep!

    I have time to talk at the monster cus I have my water source, seeds, gardens, orchards etc... started to put these things into place as soon as I found out about the banking laws in the 1970's. so yeah, I'm feeling smart. smart simply bc I do not offer myself to tarnished ideas of hopelessnesss and dependency.

    sucks to be the living dead!
  • andora said on Feb 06, 2009....
    and lucy

    what have you got to loose if you simply use your real name in this conversation? or is Pieter your denied negativity acting like a gay man?
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 06, 2009....
    OMG.... It's like you've known me all my life.  Your powers of observation are uncanny.  Pieter is my real name and yes, I am gay (not that there's anything wrong with that) and my sex life is non-existent.    Remarkable!!!   Do I know you from somewhere else???  As you can see I have no reason to create a negative character for myself.... I am a complete has-been inept fat ugly toothless old bastard with too much time on my hands and take enormous pleasure in attacking those who are down.  It's the only fun I get.....  So what's so wrong with that?  Do you expect me to pick on someone bigger and nastier than myself?  Are you nuts?  I'll have you know madam I still have a strong sense of self-preservation - for what it's worth. 

    Now if you don't mind I will once more demand that you apologise not only for that pathetic and pointless attempt at insulting me - I will always be better at that myself - but for ruining our economy you obeses noisy obnoxious American loud mouthed self-centred BITCH!!!!!!!    HA!!    Next time you will force me to be somewhat implolite with you, you.... you...... YOU...... (?????)

    whateverrrrrrrr.......  


    Have a nice day, love, Pieter.   XX
  • stopmediabias said on Feb 06, 2009....

    D6-Isn't it amazing how these liberals become uninteresting very quickly.

  • D6fer said on Feb 06, 2009....
    Grape...nope...not kidding....however, I do agree that we should let them fail.

    Andora....it's called a typo...and thanks for pointing it out....now go fuck yourself.....I don't think it takes a financial genius to know what is in store for us....so I don't  think that makes pieter any kind of genius.....you said:
    I guess it's not surprising that the neo-con supporters here at SoulCast are using outmoded generalizations to continue debunking any moves to help the populace.

    Explain how this stimulus will help the populace.....this should be good!

    I invite all comers on this challenge.....how will this next round of stimulus help the economy?

    After all is said and done we will have printed more than 2 trillion dollars or roughly 1/7th of our GDP.

    Inflation will reach at least 15% over the next couple of years, and will probably be much higher as financial problems compound the problem.

    I heard somewhere that each job created by Obamas plan will cost 300 to 500 thousand dollars each to create. @ an average income of $32,000 and a tax rate of 15% that creates $4800 in taxes each year....it will take 62.5 to 104 years for those jobs to pay for themselves.
  • bloc said on Feb 06, 2009....
    @d6
    "someone has got to do something with all those gitmo terrorists that you are so fond of."

    We are now finding out that we are releasing some from gitmo who we have no evidence on and whom we "harshly interrogated". Guess what, he was a child when we captured him, 14. No solid evidence against him and now 6 years later he's being released. Is that the America you want?
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 06, 2009....
    Oh listen to you...."We should let them fail"  WTF??!!!!
    You don't have any say you idiot.  The most you can do is what you always do; make unpleasant noises and make insane claims with an obsession to blame others for the fuck-ups of your stupid leaders.  I could have told you in 1999 what a disaster it would be to elect Bush.  In fact I did on several forums.  He's your man.  This is your mess.  so fuck you!!!! 
    And now you actually hope it fails so you can do your stupid little routine again.  You are not what I would describe as a decent American.  Your a pain in the rectum... and I KNOW what that feels like - you turd.
  • bloc said on Feb 06, 2009....
    "how will this next round of stimulus help the economy?"

    In many many ways. I'll give you one example. Building infrastructure creates jobs now, and makes us more competitive in the long run.
  • kelly said on Feb 06, 2009....
    "No solid evidence against him and now 6 years later he's being released. Is that the America you want?"

    No, I don't think that is the America they want.  I'm sure they would have preferred that he was tortured to death.
  • ALIENated said on Feb 07, 2009.... 
    
Homos, jerkoffs, and female impersonators. God I love this place. bloc, from
all I have heard, this package is just rewarding everyone that voted for
Democrats, like the NEA, and is filled with pork ... all the Democrat pet
projects they have tried to get past the Republicans for the past decade
or so. Where is Newt when we need him? And it is too funny that liberals
blame Bush for the current mess we are in. The liberal media and Hollywood
have spent the last four or five years (once everyone forgot about 9/11)
whipping us all into a state of depression with a constant barrage of lies and
negative reporting, not to mention movies like W and the Nixon /
Frost movie (what ever that drivel is). We blame Bush for the mess we
are in and watch the constant parade of tax evaders that congress is
confirming for OhBummer, and the idiots like Blogovich (or whatever) and 
pretend that the Republicans are the bad guys. And we wonder why the
country in going into a depression. It is amazing the lengths liberals go to 
in order to make sure they can keep killing their offspring and sucking on 
each other. Why can we not just keep our tax money and Uncle Sam
can keep that $800B+ ? Because the Democrats could not pay back 
their constituents. Building infrastructure ... right, right, right. The
terrorists OhBummer releases will need new stuff to blow up. God help us.
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 07, 2009....
    We have female impersonators here?   Oh how FAAAABULOUS!!!!!

    Alien:  That's the only good thing you've posted since ..... well,  ever......


  • D6fer said on Feb 07, 2009....
    bloc....we are also finding out now that people that were previously released from gitmo are now leading terrorist organizations hell bent on wiping us out....is that the kind of America that you want?
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 07, 2009....
    D6fer said (to Bloc):  "we are also finding out now that people that were previously released from gitmo are now leading terrorist organizations hell bent on wiping us out....."

    That just goes to show you the effectiveness of Republican preferred torture techniques.   Obviously it did nothing to get any information out of these allegedly released terrorists.  Neither did torture do much to deter them... but I'll bet it made them real mad and twice as determined to seek revenge for being tortured on top of whatever their original gripe was.   Yeah... real effective this Gitmo torture feast. 

    Obviously it was not worth losing the entire world's respect over, but then, I doubt Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld give a fuck.  A very poor example of what democracy is meant to stand for.    Worth dying for??? 
  • stopmediabias said on Feb 07, 2009....

    Alien-Very well said (not keen about the homo comment.) 

    Be careful injecting logic and reason in here with all these liberals, someone's head will explode. :>

    D6-That was a great question!  How is this stimulus going to help the populace?!

    Bloc-There is nothing wrong with our infrastructure that hasn't been wrong with it since we had an infrastructure.  It's a state issue and throwing large amounts of cash at it from a federal level is not going to create the amount of jobs that will boost this economy. 

    My answer to D6's question is the meager tax cuts may do something but I highly doubt this is going to get us out of this fix we are in.  It certainly isn't going to replace the 500 million jobs Nancy Pelosi says we are losing per month.  These Democrats are scared.  They know they caused this mess and this shows by why there haven't been investigations into what caused it.  Go head Dems you have four years, lets see if your brand of socialism works. 

  • D6fer said on Feb 07, 2009....
    pieter........there is little evidence supporting any torture claims at gitmo......the international red cross has been there and interviewed prisoners and has come to the conclusion that no torture is happening.....the prisoners are well cared for......your last statement just solidifies the fact that you are an idiot.
  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 07, 2009....

    1.  We know how the stimulus package is going to help  Stop being dense.

    2.  Seriously go travel to another country.  Our infrastruture is pathetic.  Granted it's because some of out shit is two hundred plus years old and there wasn't a single dime in Singapore until 1980 so everything is ultra modern but that doesn't change the simple facts that their infrastructure is grossly superior to ours.  Basically what you're getting away with saying here is that your Model T is just showing normal problems.

    Second your claiming something that is provably false, that creating jobs for infrastructure won't help the economy.  Which is clealry provably false despite Rush Limbaugh creating this myth that the depression ended (considerably) earlier around the world.  It ended earlier in those places of course but uh the war started for everybody else a few years before it started for us.

  • andora said on Feb 07, 2009....
    D6 - now that i've FUCKED OFF! I feel better now somehow

    thankyou sean for pointing out the obvious

    nothing will help our economy in the long term unless we back up our currency, and balance our trade deficit. Obama has the right idea in regard to this....retrofitting gov bldgs with green tech creates manufacturing jobs in the green industrial sector that he will boost. This is one small aspect of the bill.

    and....the republicans are arguing about less than 1% of the spending in this bill, but it hasn't stopped D6, Alien or SMB from parroting their obstructionist bullshit - I think this is great, hoping their constituents will fire their assess and make the Independant party the new liberal voting block. nice thing about us (the Independents) is that we are a balanced voting block....we can hold the center of this civil war in a more reasonable manner cus we are not rabbid partisans, we tend to put country above party!
  • kelly said on Feb 07, 2009....
    "Homos, jerkoffs, and female impersonators."

    Which one of those are you?
  • bloc said on Feb 07, 2009....
    @d6
    "we are also finding out now that people that were previously released from gitmo are now leading terrorist organizations hell bent on wiping us out....."

    Those responsible for torture are claiming this, but they give no evidence to back it up. You can see that they lie by the fact that everytime they say this they give a different number. But I guess in the sick head of neocons this rhetoric makes it ok to kidnapper children and "harshly interrogate them" for 6 years without producing any evidence of guilt. This is the neocon movement in all it's glory.
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 07, 2009....
    D6fer said (much to my astonishment):    "pieter........there is little evidence supporting any torture claims at gitmo......the international red cross has been there and interviewed prisoners and has come to the conclusion that no torture is happening.....the prisoners are well cared for......your last statement just solidifies the fact that you are an idiot."

    HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!      Now that is hillarious!!!   You MUST be joking - right????

    The Red Cross along with any other inspectors were either forbidden to enter or kept on a VERY SHORT LEASH and were only ever given limited access after giving notice first.  Their statements mean NOTHING.  It is well known to the REST OF THE WORLD what went on there.  What you were told is a complete fraud.  Wake up!!!!   Does the word PROPAGANDA mean anything to you?
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 07, 2009....
    Alien: When I said the following:   "That's the only good thing you've posted since ..... well,  ever......"

    I was referring to the female impersonators - not the rest of your bullshit.

    Thank you,  Excuse any misunderstanding.  I don't want you to get the impression you make any sense.
  • secretlife said on Feb 07, 2009....
    pieter: now i know for sure you're just a sad sorry alt who'll say anything outrageous just to shock.  i should have realized this all along-
    we won't be speaking again.
     
     
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 07, 2009....
    P.S.  Making snide, cowardly remarks about certain minorities including gays, it is water off a duck's back for me.  You will never score a cheap point by trying to offend me.  I am not that easily ruffled you low-life.  All you do is make yourself less credible by stooping so low.  Stick to more general abuse - like I do.  It is equal opportunity abuse.  It's politically correct and still quite rude.... MORON!!!

    BTW.... Jesus hates your guts.... hehehe
  • ALIENated said on Feb 07, 2009.... 
    
Which one of those are you?

None of the above. I am an ALIEN. (That does not mean from Mexico.)

And the female impersonator is Andora. I am wondering if PeterDopie and
Andora are the same person. But then I wonder things like that.

I also wonder how PDopie would know what makes sense and what does
not.
  • stopmediabias said on Feb 07, 2009....

    Sean-Could it be because you live in a liberal state that you see your infrastructure sucks.  As far as I can see we aren't to bad.  Of course I would love to see any evidence you have that our system isn't better than other countries.  How is throwing money from a federal level to the state level for infrastucture projects going to replace the jobs lost in the fall-out of this financial crisis?  You don't see anything wasteful in this package, in this economy now?

    Andora-so these present Democrat bills in Congress are putting country above party?  Are you drunk or something?

    Bloc-your rhetoric is just rhetoric, you are like that big dog who looks mean but when confronted with opposition runs and hides with his tail between his legs.  If you gave a shit about the torture issue you'd tell the truth.

     

  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 07, 2009....

    1.  I'm a Marine remember.  I've been to Red states and also to Germany and Singapore.  Now I grant you that there is a certain advantage (whihc I previously mentioned) that comes with going straight from the 1500's to the 2000's technology wise.  Nothing you have sucks because there are less things you have to build around.  Just like it's easier to install cable into a house while your building it than it is on a house that was built in 1775.  It's just a fact of life.

    I'll start googling up random infrastructure facts.  The problem is that the counter argument is that England isn't even as big as California .  It makes comparisons difficult because we have a lot more space and a lot more dead space to run wires across.

    Again are you really asking how creating jobs is going to help an economy?

    There is lots that is either wastful or at the very least should be part of another bill.  The STD education is one that comes to mind.  It should really be part of a different bill because it doesn't directly create (many) jobs nor does it directly stimulate the economy.  It's somethign that should happen and it's unfortunate tht the way our politics works that they know that they are better off tacking it onto a bill that is sure to pass tha than trying pass it on it's own considerble merits.

    2.  You can almost argue that the dems are puttinc country above party by even trying to compromise instead of telling the right to fuck of and go home for the next two years cus your opinion really doesn't matter.  But no nobody really puts country above party nor truly can they.  Our parties are differing schools of thought. 

    3.  Seriously Republicans wait untill at least March.  First 100 days.  Until then the only thing you do is look like whiners and then whatever legit points you make (like his cabinet troubles) gets brushed under the rug because everything else your saying is stupid.

     

     

     

  • PieterOpie said on Feb 07, 2009....
    alien........ wit is not your strong point darling.  avoid attempting it.
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 07, 2009....
    Sean:   you asked this>>>  "Again are you really asking how creating jobs is going to help an economy?"

    Perhaps the priority is the people more than the economy.  People need to eat.  The economy can wait perhaps. 

    Just a thought.
  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 07, 2009....
    The people and the economy cannot be separated from one another.  Don't be an idiot.
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 07, 2009....
    Rubbish.  What do you think they are right now.  The economy sucked out their souls and spat out the bodies.  They are well separated.

     There was a barter system long before there was an economy.  By the time this is over you might all be swapping your meagre possessions  for a loaf of bread.

    I suggest you eat your Wall Street bankers and then Republicans......  They have been devouring American lives for decades.

    And by the way, you can't call me an idiot.  I haven't been introduced to you formally.  How rude.  Be careful or I might have to call you something quite unflattering.  Then you'll be sorry. 
  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 07, 2009....
    Wait wait.  Are you suggestin that the barter system is not an economy?  Fucking idiot.
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 07, 2009....
    That's right.  I'll give a beefsteak for that big mouth of yours.... shit-for-brains...

    You cannot bank a loaf of bread and earn interest on it.  You can't borrow ten thousand oven mitts to buy a car.  You won't pay your almost infinite foreign debt with home made cheesecake. 

    But Mr KissMyShittyAsshole, you can get a haircut for an apple pie if the barber is hungry and sentimentally patriotic,  you pompous piece of cat-spew.... The roaming gangs will shoot you first I imagine as you try to teach them about your old world idea of economy.  Everything is different now even if you don't know it yet.... you will fairly soon you underwhelming pinhead. Eat shit and die you deadshit!!! 
  • D6fer said on Feb 08, 2009....
    I just realized something......pieter is like a gay Austrailian version of copsunited.....attacking people he agrees with even.......you're a real piece of work pieter.

    Sean.....if the figures that I heard are correct....and I did not hear them from Rush Limbaugh.....it will cost something like 300,000 to 500,000 per job created.....how will that help the economy?.....sure maybe short term....those people will be buying cars, clothes, houses, food, etc......but what about when the bill comes due?.....what about when the inflation eats all of our expendable income and then some?

    This new stimulus bill is just another cash grab free for all, perpetrated by the same folks that have been screwing us for years.....if you think Obama is any different than Bush in that respect, then you are an idiot.

    People get rich when money shifts from one segment of the economy to another.....virtual middlemen.......first the rich Republicans, then the rich Democrats.....back and forth.....tax and spend.

    There has been enough wealth produced in this country the last twenty or so years to fix all of our infrastructure and balance the budget......but why do you suppose that hasn't happened? Because they don't want you to think that they already have enough to do it....neither party wants that....so it's pork pork pork, tax tax tax, lie lie lie!

    And why we all stand around arguing with one another and pointing fingers it continues.....the only way to fix this mess is to get rid of the culprits involved.....that means almost every last Congressman and Senator in office today.......this is going to be a long 2 years before we get the chance........vote non-incumbent.....forget party.....or we will be screwed!
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 08, 2009....
    D6fer:  You are mistaken madam.  I am not an Australian at all.  I am a Dutch national.  I reside in Australia. I'll thank you not to confuse the two again or there will be trouble.  Never-the-less I thank you for thee remainder of your observation and may I say you are a gentleman compared to that ruffian Sean Whatshisname.....   The man is boorish to the extreme and so ignorant it tests one's faith in stuff....
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 08, 2009....
    CORRECTION:   please replace "thee" with "the" (above).  Thank you. 
  • stopmediabias said on Feb 08, 2009....

    Sean-The issue here is where were all of these jobs lost?  The financial sector of our economy.  Infrastructure projects, STD research and global warming research etc etc is not going to create jobs.  George Bush in 2000 cut a massive amount of taxes and was savaged in the media but it worked. 

    Businesses are scared now.  Do you think small businesses are going to borrow for that expansion or new worktruck that will increase their profit?  Not now, but if they saw their taxes were going down a couple thousand dollars a year it gives them the incentive to start taking reasonable risks again.  This is what creates jobs.  These current plans are only going to bog down the economy.

    PO-I can't imagine why you talk like such a scumbag.  Sean (while I disagree with him a lot) has more going for him in two seconds than a scab like you for a year.  Eventually you will be blocked by just about every person here then you will fade away like so many other nutcases that have been here. 

  • PieterOpie said on Feb 08, 2009....
    He did call me a fucking idiot you know.......   I took "Offensive Gutter Language 101" for just such an occasion  and I've been blocked by better people before. I really don't care that much.

    As for me being a nutcase.....  None of us is perfect.  I have my own views of what is nuts and what is not. 

    Sometimes I like to treat a subject seriously and not so at other times.  Either way we won't change a thing by talking about them here on any level.  The fact is I have as much right to be here as you do.  The difference is I would never ever block anyone no matter what they said about me or anything.  I have perhaps more respect for the freedom of expression to silence a nuicance or an opponent.  If it pleases him - or you, then block me.   You have that power.    Anything can be justified with a bit of mental acrobatics.  Politicians do it all the time. 

    Finally, do you even know what a scumbag is?  Now THAT'S offensive.....

    P.S.  Back on topic.  I firmly believe that there is no saving the ship from sinking.  The bigger the stimulus package the slower the sinking perhaps but the old tub is headed for the ocean floor.  Isn't that what they refer to as "rearranging deck chairs on the Titantic"?
  • andora said on Feb 08, 2009....
    D6 said: "There has been enough wealth produced in this country the last twenty or so years to fix all of our infrastructure and balance the budget......but why do you suppose that hasn't happened? Because they don't want you to think that they already have enough to do it....neither party wants that....so it's pork pork pork, tax tax tax, lie lie lie!"

    then SMB said:
    "George Bush in 2000 cut a massive amount of taxes and was savaged in the media but it worked."

    the budget was balanced by Clinton D6

    and George destroyed the balanced budget

    you two sound like the same person parroting lies, I would suspect that D6 has alts that help him 'seem' as though he is actually having conversations with peops that agree with him. both of these statements are lies.

    and ALIEN,
    just because you use alts doesn't mean that i will stoop to your level

    PieterO is lucy's alt bc she does not wish to threaten her featured writer's position with her truth, so she rails behind the alt of PO. The sad part is, if she wasn't so very competitive, we probably would have been friends. but, she is involved in making unions with other featured writers to block any competition for her position...,makes soulcast almost too fucking boring to stick with...but, alas, I live in a world of people who hide thier truth to glean a little popularity. These people have endless BORING conversations with themselves and then think real people should get hooked by this. there is this 'seer' alt and 'spiritualmom' alt who had one of these conversations with itself, but wasn't swift enough to prevent similar spelling errors in its conversation with self. and when i pointed this out,..it didn't even realize the issue, just accused me of trying to be superior in pointing out the mispelling of 'intellegent'. now that's funny, both seer and spiritualmom spelled intellegent wrong. now that's an idiot. I suspect there are really just a small handful of people coming here....most of these personna's are alts of a very bored person - probably housebound, or getting paid to run this site. I think the alt thing is a sad statement about the nature of human relations and the fear that makes people hide their truth!


  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 08, 2009....

    1.  ALIEN quoted the same thing that it will cost 3-5 hundred k to create each job.  I would like to see this quoted someplace cus I'm not finding it and it is an important detail.  And what is the expected return on these jobs.

    One thing that people seem to forget is that money today is really based upon how much human energy can be properly channeled than anything else.  That is mainly the reason for natural inflation (not what we are about to see here) The amount of money in the world grows most years because we get new workers into the work force able to do more things.  It's likely there will be a down shift whe all the Baby Boomers retire and then die. 

    My point here is that money is cumlative.  If you create say a thousand teachers to teach STD awareness/sex ed.  They need teaching supplies which have to be manufactured, transported and stored.  Obviously we'll never know the entire chain of people involved but we can see some of it.  If you've ever been to a place that has a lot of construction going on they tend to have those hotdog mobiles near by. 

    This is a money grab, but a lot of this money grab I think should have been pushed through before and wasn't out of this Republican refusal to spend government money on anything but the military.  Honestly more of this shit should be put on ballots and brought to the voters.  I can get down with the vote non-incumbants.  Californian Republicans are close enough to my ideals anyway (they seem to be less affected by the religious/moral taint that turns me off to the party as a whole)

    Peiter.  You're fucking idiot.  But are you sure that I can't get interest on a loaf of bread?  Absolutely completely certain?  I could swear that I've done just that in the past and not even an entire loaf of bread.  My neighbor was throwing a party and ran out of bread and asked if I had any, I had only half a loaf when I gave it to him but when he went shoping he gave me an entire loaf.  Sounds similar to interest.  I certainly received more than I gave.  I'll admit I've never bought a car with oven mitts.  It's okay being Austrialian has clealry warped your tiny brain.  And over all I've had good experiences with our down under cousins.  Maybe you're mother fucked a koala?

    2.  D6 I think you need to just listen to the radio to see where jobs are lost.  It's not just the financial section.  Let me explain it from my point of view.  I run a livescan company, that means I take fingerprints for people who need it for employment.  Two major industries that need this service are Real Estate and Notary.  When the Real Estate started crashing it took Notaries and Escrow (another industry that I work with) with them.  That eventually backlashed and took out the financial sector but if you remember it was housing first.  This in turn has effected my income.  Which effects how much money I spend at say Circuit City which declared bankruptcy last month.  It's just a huge chain and interupting it at any stage will help. 

    Let's take for example something that is happening.  The State of Californa has decided that instead of just new nurses, renewing nurses also must be livescanned.  Which will directly effect my income which at the least will increase the amount of money I can spend and hopefully will give me the ability to hire on.  Which will in turn make people able to buy houses which will inturn increase the need for Notaries and Escrow agents.  Which will increase the need for me.  It doesn't matter WHERE the chain is broken but that the chain is broken.

    I'm not against lowered taxes in responsible places.  I don't hate the super rich but most of the logic that Republicans seem to go on about would make sense to increase the tax rate on the super rich so they can take some of the burden off of the merely rich.  

    Don't worry Pieter I won't block you.  Idiots like you make me look that much better.

    The question ultimately whether this can be stopped from reaching the bottom and nobody really knwos for sure. 

  • andora said on Feb 08, 2009....
    and what is the bottom?

    do you think those vets living under bridges know something about the bottom?

    if Obama were smart, he would rescind federal income taxes so that the secret economy can become legitimate and pay state taxes. Making hard working people into criminals bc they can't find an entry job that isn't under the table is creating a class of people that are being trained in the ways of criminality. today, there is an entire economy happening under the table bc of the debunct IRS laws. A national consumer tax would be the best replacement for the outmoded fed income tax!

    and one of the fastest ways to bring down the deficit is what was done at the end of WW1 - repeal prohibition

    the facts show that prohibition contributed to crime and drunkeness, so when it became legal with the gov regulating and taxing it, our society improved. so, now it is time to make marijuana legal. stop the mexican cartels in their tracks and tax a multi-billion dollar industry that is rapidly becoming the backbone of many of our local economies. if Obama was smart, he would take some of these real estate 'failed assets' and turn them into half-way homes for non-violent criminals and stop paying big bucks to incarcerate the non-violent inmates!

    we would see an instant shift in our economy with just a few moves like that

    besides, dick cheney was instrumental in bringing the per diem for each prisoner up to $84 from $38. he also invested $85 million of his own money into the private prison stock. This is what the scandal regarding Gonzolas firing all those federal prosecuters....they took out the prosecutors that refused to drop their investigations into these prison issues. and our media is silent...why? bc prisons are THE fastest growing industries in the nation, where the private prison uses inmate labor for pennies. This is institutionalized slavery. create the ghetto and you get slaves - they show up in the penitentury, or the military...either way these fat cats have their way with the poor in our country at the same time they are blaming them!

    for those of you who look the other way? well, no telling what this pattern will eventually produce...oh yeah, it already has created one of THE biggest multi-national gang cartels in the world. M13 (i think that is the name of them)

    if any of u Amerikans think you are free of this on any level  - then you don't understand what dick just did to you and the federal budget!
  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 08, 2009....
    There is a lot wrong with our prison system.  A lot, I'd dare to say more wrong than right but you're whiffing out here Andora.  It's like school spending.  It's not about how much we are spending it's about how poorly we are spending it.
  • andora said on Feb 08, 2009....
    incarcerating non-violent citizens and paying 3x as much is not 'whiffing about' sean, its a scandal! especially when you have those who set the new per diem policy investing his own money and gaining from his political power. why is this getting swept under the rug when we are speaking about gov graft. this isn't only graft, it is corruption on an amazing scale. let's see millions of prisoners at $38 per day - jumps to $84 per day. this is not minor, this was bloated to leave profit for the private industry replacing a gov responsibility. private prisons are, in and of themselves, a nasty proposition. can anyone explain why the dems and the repubs are both silent on this issue? they are ALL making out like bandits!
  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 08, 2009....

    When you're right your right.  However you're focusing in the wrong spots.

    The incarceration of non-violent criminals is for the most part irresponsible and ofen criminal.  The only people who should be jail should be rapists, murders (for the record I make no distinction between murder and attempted murder.  Being incompetent doesn't make you innocent.  Nor does the miracle of modern medicine.)  and some cases of assault.  Everybody else should find some other way to be penalized.

    The ultimate goal of prison MUST be to reform.  If not just shoot them and be done with it because you are right that we are making the criminal problem worse.

    If someone is investing their money they deserve whatever they can get from it and Dems are silent on this issue because MOST people think that criminals should go to jail and are highly suceptible to commercials.  America is basically a Right Wing place.

  • andora said on Feb 08, 2009....
    when you are right, you are right

    and

    I was laughing over the incompetent murderer bit - that was hillarious

    its gonna get even more right wing when all the homelessness hits a quantum mass. I guess the GOP knows what they are doing cus they are gonna make many more criminals for their private jails real soooon
  • ALIENated said on Feb 08, 2009.... 
    
ALIEN quoted the same thing that it will cost 3-5 hundred k to create each job.

No, that was D6. I am not paying that much attention to all that is going on in
Washington because it is not going to make that much difference except that
future generations of Americans are going to be that much more in debt and
that much more controlled by big government. You get what you vote for ...
maybe ... sometimes.

There are lots of jobs out there and no one to do them. If the school system
would stop teaching our children how to be sexually active and politically 
correct, and start teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic again, we might
have people smart enough to go to college and actually make it through. And
we need to make it nearly impossible to sell anything in this country that was
not made here.

Other countries spit on us and we just keep sending our jobs there and buying
their products. I say we should start a grass roots campaign to buy American 
or not buy at all. Stay away from Walmart for starters. Do they sell anything
not made in China? Use that trillion dollars to build factories here to employ
people to make shoes, radios, TVs, etc. Put a heavy tax on things made out
of country. Inspire companies to build new factories here. Build a solid wall the
length of our southern border with machine gun towers every 100 yards. We 
need to stop bending over and providing the vasoline. We have become a
nation of morons. The price of taking God out of everything (like our schools)
I suppose.
  • andora said on Feb 08, 2009....
    god was never in our schools Alien

    but, I do agree that the US has bent over to take the brunt of globalization, but the US does not exist any longer and you are fighting over a dead idea, unless Obama is really a populist...I have my doubts. If you want to blame, then look to the World Bank, the IMF and NAFTA.

    In the End, One World Order will occur whether you or I like it or not

    we just had a global economic lesson to help EVERYONE realize that the notion of Nationalism is dead. Now that there are billions of eyes everywhere, I guess we will evolve rapidly or disappear as a race.

    my prediction? The Earth will level the playing field in the end and the sheopple will get to know their neighbors after all
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 08, 2009....
    Andora, I am Pieter and not any other person here and if need be I can prove it beyond doubt.  If you must have proof you can ask for it via private message.  Naturally I cannot give my details publicly.  It is the truth. 

    Sean,  OK, so my brain is smaller than average... well I have a smallish head in any event but you do exaggerate a little too much in your cutting remark.  My mother has never had relations with any marsupial that I know of, although I cannot swear to other mammalians.  It is possible I suppose.  Please stop calling me a fucking idiot!!  People might get the wrong impression of me.  At least cut it back to just a regular idiot.  I'd appreciate it.

    Now... the bread example was obviously a really lousy choice on my part and I stand corrected.  I have often benefited in similar fashion.  That was  poorly thought out.  Oh well.  I will live.....

    I am glad you decided not to ban me or block me in this case.  I am an attention whore after all and negative attention to me is good enough.  Thanks.

    As for your econo.... sorry, your barter system,  it is going down mate.....  all the way.  The difference is that after all these recue packages is that you'll (the USA) will then owe soooo much more to fuck-knows-who....   It might have saved time to let it all go back when Bush was still president.

    But what do I know.  According to you..... nothing.   You're right...  it's all one big mysterious mess to me.   Luckily we have you to explain it.   It doesn't help of course but it's so much more clear........ LOL...  to you - not me.

    Now please excuse me, my country in on fire...............
  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 08, 2009....
    1.  Sorry ALIEN you D6 and smb share so many lines that it's hard to keep track of who said what.  Besides in this case it doesn't really matter who said it first I merely want somebody to back it up with an actual article not just I heard some place.  I heard someplace doesn't cut it for me.  (and if you go back to some of the things that bloc was saying about Palin when the news on her started breaking I was questioning everything he said too.
     
    2.  We aren't teaching our kids to be sexual active.  And if the trends of the 90s and 2000's proove anything it's that Clinton's attitude of pro-sex ed lowered teen pregnancies AND abortions and Bush's refusal to teach safe sex increased both.  People can only make inteligent decisions when they have been given good information.  When you blind someone one you can't blame them for not seeing what's in front of their face.
     
    3.  There aren't lots of jobs.  That's a myth.  There are some yes that are flooded by illegal immigrants but they get the EXTRA jobs.  Up until very recently our unemployment was down around 6% and 0% is roughly impossible.  I'll see if I can dig up the exact fact but I believe between 2-3% unemployment merely represents the number of people who quit to get new jobs and are thus in transition.  The average amount of time that an American is out of thwork is 4-6 weeks (as opposed to the much higher rates in much of Europe)
     
    4.  You can't be Republican and preach protectionism and keeping jobs in America.  Your capitalist blood screams for the best deal possible and that is why YOUR party ships thousands of jobs over sea every day because they can basically get away with slave labor.  The guy who runs Wal-Mart is just like you, he's so anti-union he cut out the butchers because they tried to unionize on him.  He should be your hero. 
     
    I agree with most of what you said in that paragraph I just can't believe you said it.
     
    5. Nationalism dead?  Not by a long shot.  The economies are intertwined thats for damn sure but nationalism is far far from dead and likely won't die for a while. 
  • ALIENated said on Feb 08, 2009.... 
    
You can't be Republican and preach protectionism and keeping jobs in America.  

Who said I am a Republican? I am for right, conservatism (in general), and 
America, not this party or that party. Most of the parties are filled with 
morons only interested in being re-elected these days. That is all Borax was 
interested in -- being elected, being the first "black" president (I cannot 
stand that people think he is black when he is more Caucasian and Arab than 
black). Obviously, I am also for Christianity, life, and traditional marriage.

The only way we will have one-world government is when the anti-Christ
takes over, which may be very soon considering how little people think for
themselves these days.
  • andora said on Feb 08, 2009....
    comm'on you guys, is it so hard to believe that all that propaganda crap about liberty and justice for all was designed to get you riled up enough to shoot innocent people?

    if you do not wish to remember what the United States has done with its military - I will happily educate you! wtf!

    you guys talk like the US has been right to freak'in kill millions of Native Americans, MILLIONS of Phillipino's and carried out black ops that show up in these disgusting torture movies constantly! You sit here and talk about these things as if they can only happen else-where...but, truly, you have become so numb that the opposite of your mantra seems kinda sorta like liberty and justice for all!
  • andora said on Feb 08, 2009....
    have another zolaft so you don't realize how very close Mad Max is to YOUR law of averages
  • andora said on Feb 08, 2009....
    The Titanic had an interesting schmoorgasboard of humanity...you know, those below and those above...complete with the 'EXPERTS' that decided they didn't need all the necessary life boats cus the Titanic was unsinkable to begin with. This sounds like the kind of cowboy shit that drives your solitary orgasms after all sean
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 08, 2009....
    Andora.... I really like your abrasive style.  It gets below that smooth shiny surface that keep buffing up so that the sun shines on it and blinds you as you try to look at what is going on.   You're acidic tongue strips away the gloss and beneath is a festering lump of ugly truth no one wants to look at let alone recognise for what it is... the rotting carcass of what used to be a better place.  The rot started setting in a long time ago.  Longer than anyone might care to admit.

    Think about it.  Your founding fathers owned slaves yet they wrote a most glorious sounding constitution.  That was the very first indecent act of hypocracy.  Come to think of it they did commit high treason against George the fifth inorder to get that far.  Not at all the purest base on which to build such high ideals.  The notion of free enterprise soon turned into a feast of greed and corruption and It has been part of the brickwork ever since. 

    That is what the youth of America has been fighting for.... not the lofty ideals set out on paper. No... they died for unspoken principles hiding in the walls of your grand design.  Blacks were still enslaved long after being set "free".  Women still did what they were told.  Jews were not the favoured ones.  Only a very select group of men with all the right qualities and connections and a willingness to keep the status quo were acceptable to benefit from that magnificent constitution and revel in the glory of this great land.  They did everything to create an ongoing living saga wrapped in red, white and blue with stars and bangles and heroic drama enough for everyone to bask in.   Yes, it was there for everyone to enjoy.

    If you had the guption and the drive you could make your fortune - certainly, and many did and they too became part of that marvelous establishment for which all free men would be proud to die or defend with their lives - and they did.

    Yet all the time the corruption was there and had never gone away and the blacks and the natives and anyone who might demand too much of the wealth or power or dare to stand in the way of progress had to be pressed down.  If they did not stay down then they had to be swept aside.  Is there any person who can deny the enormous suffering  that has swept this free land to maintain the established forces for free enterprise?  It soon swept outside the borders and across the world so eventually freedom wiped away all oponents to the great American Way.  The shadow of the eagle's wings were cast over anyone or thing and claimed quietly or ferociously its prize of bounty to make America rich and powerful. 

    Bush finally said it..... "you are either with us, or against us" but the sentiment was born well over a century before he spoke those offensive words.    But like Bush the common people believed those noble words in the constitution but the silent hidden, wealthy, powerful ones walked all over that piece of paper just like Bush did with so much less dicretion and in those stupid Texan boots with which he kicked the head of anyone who did not tow the line.  Even the media was intimidated enough to keep silent about all manner of things.

    Thruth may be a bit slow but it has a way of finding its way to the surface.... eventually.  The same media no longer fears those hidden forces and threats and now Bush may be exposed - at least in part.  His crimes against humanity are stll being kept quiet.  His conspircies still do not see the fresh air.  His offenses against the planet are nowhere to be seen.... yet.  You have all been to busy.... busy desperately trying to get back some of that glory and freedom.  That spark that makes everyone feel so good about America the brave.....

    And now you have it in the form of a great man.  Barack Obama. 

    And what does this promise of glory have to do?  Clean up after those that still hold much of the power and the wealth that hides quietly behind the walls of the establishment.  He has to mop up the mess.... Can he make it work?  Who knows. 

    I do know this.  That man will be wasted on the legacy of Bush and Cheney.  Far too much of him will be consumed by the wreckage left in the wake of those clumsy Texan boots. And there is so much of it.  It's everywhere you look. All over the world.... in Iraq, in secret prison camps dotted around god knows how many countries.  In the hearts and minds of entire cultures....

    I hope Obama has the strength.  I hope he doesn't ever have to hear the shit that people like Alien say about him.   He does not deserve it but more than that - you, the people don't deserve that.  Or do you?  Maybe you need to open your eyes, wake up - before once again the sun shining on that polished surface is repolished and seeing the rot beneath once again becomes impossible.

    You need to make some fundamental changes. 
  • D6fer said on Feb 08, 2009....
    shit that is a lot of activity! where do I start?

    Andora.....If I were using alts to back up my own points, I would have far more than 1 or 2!......conservatives are few and far in between in this type of forum.....but i enjoy the challenge that it brings.

    btw.......there was no surplus under clinton....it was projected...not real....and in my opinion was never the intention of any administration to have an actual surplus.....how could they continue to collect taxes at current rates with a surplus?

    pieter is not lucy.....lucy is a friend of mine.....and while pieter might be a mary.....I assure you he is not lucy! ;p

    Sean and andora.......I can agree with some of what you are saying about the prison system.....I think it's a criminal justice industry....not a system......but people know that it is illegal to sell drugs....and they know the consequences.....make it legal first....then sell em.

    Pieter.......why do people look at that period of slavery through modern eyes? Do you really think that people of that time period overwhelmingly thought that slavery was wrong? It was Africans that rounded up and sold Africans to the slave owners afterall......America grew out of it....why should we pay for the sins of our forefathers?

    Andora.....the indian thing? really?.....do you know that they killed each other before we arived? and that they enslaved one another?......are there truly any nations or races that are innocent of agression?

    as long as humans have expanded their territory there has been war.
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 08, 2009....
    D6fer,  We have to look at that period through "modern eyes" because we are here and now - not back in those days.  That seems fairly logical doesn't it?  We don't have an option.  We do so because the past is very much linked to the present.  Had slavery never existed in America it would be a vastly different country today, whether it be for the better or for worse.  It has certainly on many occasions been for the worse when one looks at the entire history.  Yet that same society that oppressed the black population for so long and so violently has richly benefitted by the cultural richness brought about by their presence in terms of music and the arts and any number of social subtleties not seen in other cultures in the world.  Those things alone have not entirely washed over the brutal treatment of those people and when we discuss their past the native Americans are almost forgotten.  They suffered no less indignity and their people were forever changed and have never really recovered from what went before. 

    To say Africans sold their fellow Africans into slavery is to simply ignore the complexities of the pre-white African tribal politics and rivalry. No doubt some tribes took great advatage of the situation to rid themselves of local historic enemies.  Even great powers like America employs the cooperation of willing states - ring a bell?  The Coalition of the Willing....... or as I prefer - The coalition of the gullible.

    Why should you pay for the sins of the forefathers?  It is the intrument of government that must pay.  The indivduals may have changed but if that is the way nations do business then we can virtually blame anything that a country does on those who happened to hold office at the time.  Strangely those individuals are rarely held to account?  Bush is still alive and well.  Will he be held responsible for the debacle in Iraq?  Or will the nation pay the price?  Of course with Iraq it seems to me you have already paid plenty throug the nose in cold hard cash that you could little afford.  At least Bush's chums at Halliburton did well from the whole disaster.  Have you found those missing billions yet?  Funny how that sort of thing just fades into the mist.... will anyone notice if we just ignore it long enough?

    I think it is unavoidable that we must pay for the screw-ups of our forefathers.  They used the instrument - the state - to serve them and it is that instrument that must pay.  If that harms us then we need to blame our forefathers and not neglect the justice that is necessary to make it right.  Why should the victims and the decendants who continued to suffer a lesser life directly due to the wrongs have to suffer rather than we who have lived well because of the very same injustice.  To avoid it is to perpetuate the wrongs done so many years before. 

    To belittle Obama and say he just wanted to be the first black president and to haggle over his "blackness" reeks of racist stupidity and arrogance.  It says much aboiut those who speak such venom.  It ignores Obamas obvious qualifications.  It says that some still don't feel comfortable with a non-100%-white man in the Oval Office.  It shows that that distant past is still very much in the present.  And that is why we must look at it through modern eyes.  The only other thing to do is to keep one's eyes firmly closed.

    Do that and you will eventually hurt yourself when you stumble.

    I heard that a certain "shock jock" on your radio actually wished Obama would fail in his attempt to save America from this crisis.  Does that not say instead that many have already failed America when they tune into such garbage and keep him on the air?   If Obama does fail I doubt it will be his fault.  It will not because of incopetence or lack of effort.  If I was a black man in America I'd let it sink.

    Personally I honestly wonder whether a culture of selfishness and  self-indulgence that lives on borrowed money and overdue time and does so simply to elevate social standing and satisfy a need for luxury and reward before it is earned, really deserves to be rescued. Will anything be learned by it.  Will the collective spirit of the nation be advanced by it?  Or is it just a continuation of the same bad habbits and feelings of entitlement?  Won't the same thing just happen again some time in the future?  I think it could. 

    However I am not known for my optimism.  I am more realistic.  I expect things to get much worse before they get better. 

    Maybe it will be the current generation paying for the sins of the forefathers.
  • starchini said on Feb 09, 2009....
    Oh wow, it like a car crash, i just cant look away...
  • andora said on Feb 09, 2009....
    D6

    I bring up what seems like ancient history to you, but to me, I see the advent of genocide against the indigenous peoples as the beginning of our organized militarism that swept around the globe to do so to indigenous people in other places. Because these people didn't have an organized military, they were seen as less than human, 'heathen', and so it goes, one undeveloped country after another. This is the true unspoken war crimes patterns that gets absolutely no attention, but here we are killing stone-age types in Afghanistan for what? to help their women? paleeeze, if we wanted to help women in this country, they would rescue the 10's of thousands of sex slaves, give young women a living wage so they don't have to take off their clothes in order to pay rent!

    My point, in regard to our military D6, is that it has been used poorly and continues to be used poorly. For those who call people like me protectionists, you are making a blatant attempt to confuse the issues. We do not need to protect multi-national corporations that refuse to pay taxes, yet call out our military to help them over-ride the will of others for OUR NATIONAL SECURITY! You must know, somewhere in your shriveled heart, that this is not even remotely Christian as those who send our military would like you to believe.

    There is a man in Arizona who has rounded up and turned in over 12,000 illegal aliens from Mexico in the last 10 years. Today, he is being sued in civil court for abbrogating their (illegal aliens) Civil Rights! That's right, you heard me correctly! Tell me that our military should be in Iraq building a nation that will hate us no matter what we do, but they won't even protect our own citizens and patrol our own border. This man has had his fences broken, vehicles stolen, livestock killed and family threatened with guns, knives and what have you. can you possibly explain how this is nationalism. wake up D6 cus you no longer have a nation and it will be undone even further with the new highway corridor that will hook Canada and Mexico up with the US....then you will be a happy citizen of the new AMERICA. got it? you are probably one of the last to know!
  • andora said on Feb 09, 2009....
    and Pieter

    I thought your rant about the REAL American values that have shaped our current entrenched hypocrisy was spot on! I don't get warm and fuzzy about Nationalism bc I understand this is an illusion created by some very powerful Good Ole Boys to get us to join the military and pay for its use.

    There is no nobility, in regard to genocide, on the part of England, France, Germany, Spain, Rome, Dutch, Russia, China or the US. Everyone of these nations partook in 3rd world genocide and unbridled resource extraction that left the indigenous folks dependent upon a heartless system to this day. As an American, that loves the ideals that this country was founded upon, I expect that the Devil himself will design the One World Order that everyone is witnessing, and love will eventually take it over....as love incarnate I understand that I can out live the corruption and the only thing I need do is tend my own garden and spread my light upon the corruption. This is why I am one of the only people writing about the US's private prison scandal, while these twits talk about how fucking BORED THEY ARE! Americans! They deserve what they are getting! And so do the rest of the so-called  DEVELOPED COUNTRIES!

    You want to talk genocide and slavery Pieter, take a look at the beginnings of the Aussie empire. I have a friend there on the East Coast that has been working on behalf of the indigenous ones, but the basic Aussie attitude about them is very heartless and sad as well. So, our countries were created by powerful men that wreaked evil in the name of progress and all those benefitting from this stuck their heads in the sand and went along with the injustice!

    Today, there is nothing we can do about the past, except not allow the corrupt to re-write it as SMB, D6, and Alien want to do.

    they stay silent about Dick screwing Americans in plain sight by illegally investing in a corrupt industry that he benifitted with his political power. Same pattern that we, Pieter and I are pointing our here, and non of you have a thing to say about it because you are complicit with your propaganda that tries to switch and bait the real issues. Like you guys fighting over a stimulus bill while you are getting raped in plain sight! not smart and very Un-American!
  • andora said on Feb 09, 2009....
    Pieter said:
    "
    I heard that a certain "shock jock" on your radio actually wished Obama would fail in his attempt to save America from this crisis.  Does that not say instead that many have already failed America when they tune into such garbage and keep him on the air? "

    spot on Pieter

    mahalo for you aloha
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 09, 2009....
    Andora,  I am not used to finding anyone who is as outraged by the inglorious history of our countries as I am.  It's encouraging to know there are some who look past the end of their own nose.  I usually have to face all kinds of statements about raking over the past and why bring it up again, and any number of standard raves about my negativity which to me just ring of arrogant denial that is marched out once again as if that closes the debate right there.  To pursue is to be in the way of progress or whatever else it takes to dodge responsiblity.  I am not attacking them personally - just their refusal to deal with the past in relation to our present.  The same thing held up any real progress here in Australia with the previous Prime Minister refusing to apologise because he had not done anything wrong.  I had to put it down to a basic lack of intelligence.  There was no other rational explanation.

    So now there is another great ignorence to battle in the U.S. and that is the understanding of the word "socialism".  There is a phobia regarding this philosophy which holds back so many crucial things that ordinary people deserve.  The previous leaders did a very thorough job turning it into a tool of the devil during the cold war.  This crisis may be the only way to demonstrate that it can be for the good of society and not the enemy of the people.  It is the enemy of unfettered insane greedy capitolism. But then, that is the enemy of all people everywhere because it treats them as commodities. Huge companies don't become so powerful by being generous.  Perhaps Google has made it possible to change all that by way of example.  Let's hope the stick to their moto "Don't Be Evil".   It just isn't necessary.

    I need more sleep.... so - later. Bye.
  • stopmediabias said on Feb 09, 2009....

    Andora-that shock jock was Rush Limbaugh and your comment is completely false, he didn't say that and what he did say was taken completely out of context.  I have a question for you:  Do you think George Bush had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks?

    PO-Can you tell where in the world socialism is better than capitalism?  

  • bloc said on Feb 09, 2009....
    "PO-Can you tell where in the world socialism is better than capitalism?  "

    This binary choice between socialism and capitalism is asking the wrong question. All countries are a mixture of the two systems and history has shown that the closer to either extreme we go the worst it gets.

    Europe is more socialistic that we are and I've lived there and can say it's a pretty nice place. America is pretty nice as well and I think both can learn from each other.
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 09, 2009....
    I am talking "some" socialism.  Not pure socialism.  It is a blend of capitalism and socialism that makes for a reasonable society.  It means that those keen to make money can do so, but not in a free-for-all anything goes way.  Let's be honest, does any one person really need many billions of dollars of personal wealth?  I think not.  It just makes individuals dangerous to any state because of their wealth and power.  No single person or small group of super wealthy people should be able to sway the leaders of a nation; especially while there are many poor people who live without proper health care or second rate education or any of the basic things which make a nation civilised.  No modern developed state ought to have homeless people - who do not wish to be homeless.  There will always be a weirdo living under a bridge but many don't want to live in the great outdoors.  We all deserve basics.  Food, shelter, clothing, blah blah balh... and whether some like it or not I think it is the duty of a government to protect its least able and resourceful from deprivation.  NO ONE should ever be hungry or homeless.  NO ONE should have to go without medical care because they are poor.  In any rich developed country that is just a given in my opinion.  You can judge a civilization by the way it treats its poor and its animals.  And I add to that its prisoners.  If we deprive the liberty of an individual we have an obligation to treat them like humans - not animals.   If we treat criminals like scum or animals we are oursleves animals.  If we execute them then we are killers.

    But I digress as is my want.  In Europe you can find many countries that have many socialist programs in place. That does not mean they are socialist nations especially.  It is the program that is by definition socialist.  The governemnt might be conservative.  In Australia we have some social institutions which make medical treatment available to all citizens regardless of income. Our medications are heavily susidised so that all can afford it.  It is said to be the best system in the world.... unless you are a drug company perhaps.  I would never be able to pay for my medications in the US.  I'm just not rich enough.  But I am helped by a socialist style program that gives poor people a chance to enjoy fair medical treatment - a basic right in my view.  It is expensive for a government.  BUT that is part of their responsibility.  If we live by the laws of the jungle then don't pretend to be civil or fair or free.  That is tyrrany. That is letting people live in fear of illness and fear of poverty.  It's wrong in a rich country.  You were the richest nation on earth and yet you have over 40 million who live below the poverty line.  Not all of the do so because they are lazy or drug-addicted or dishonest.  That is right wing waffle to justify letting them flounder.   It is the wealthy setting the standards.  You have too long been brainwashed by those who own your ass.  You people do NOT live in a free nation if there is any suffering within your borders.  Who do you defend when you fight for the American Way.... the common people or the ultra rich?  So many of you have been defending the establishment which is designed to keep things just as they are.  The military is its bully boy.  It is a ferfie - a lie.    Your military has spent most of its time defending "American interests" not defending Americans from harm.  What harm? Socialism?  LOL

    anyway.... I need COFFEEEEEEE...... bye  kissy kissy
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 09, 2009....
    Rush Liverspots.... ??? That fat drug addicted idiot is a socially isolated hermit who just sits there in his own shit  in his own home from whence he spews pure venom and sabotage.  The man has literally NO EDUCATION and less brains.  He knows one thing and that is how to annoy anything that is vaguely normal or decent.  You cannot hurt his tripe in or out of context because it is 100% shit.  The people who keep this misfit on the air do so PURELY for ratings and profit and care not one tiny bit about your country. THEY SHOULD BE SHOT!!!!!!

    That fat blob ought to be put in a cardboard box and dropped into a lava pool in a volcano and allowed to cause a brief fat-fire and then you should all put it behind you.  He is making America look like you have a whole subculture of troglodites roaming dark allies eating kiddies and dog shit.  GET RID OF IT.  Just because you are a right wing fuckwit is no excuse to defend this chemically altered thing. 

    You also need to lose Anne Coulter - you know, the insane transvestite big-mouth stick insect. YECH.... 

    And while you're at it..... Palin.... out.   she is dangerous,  trust me,  WHACKO!!!!
  • D6fer said on Feb 09, 2009....
    Pieter....we have laws in this country that prevent us for being punished for the actions of others.
    You said: We have to look at that period through "modern eyes" because we are here and now.......it doesn't sound like you are in the here and now if you keep drudging up history and treating it as if it happened today and was perpetrated by the living......but lets go ahead and go down that road......so who should pay who? should all whites be forced to pay some sort of retribution to the blacks and indians? How about Obama.....he is both white and black....is that a wash?

    Andora.....apparently you haven't read any of my views on Mexico and illegal immigration.....You have no argument from me there.....I am pissed that GWB merely commuted agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean sentences rather than the pardon that they deserved.
    Do you think that women deserve a living wage even if they don't earn it?....where do you draw the line? you don't think that prostitution would exist if minimum wage was $20 an hour?....that's just plain naive.

    Pieter.......I would bet the only exposure you have ever had to Rush Limbaugh would be the out of context sound bytes that the liberal media likes to use to try and discredit him......but they know just how powerful he is......if anyone cares to remember when Katie Couric took over the anchor chair at CBS they invited Rush to do a commentary on either the 1st or 2nd broadcast (I don't remember which).....they knew it would draw millions of viewers.
  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 09, 2009....
    1.  Prostitution should be legal.  If a girls only talent is spreading her legs so fucking be it.
     
    2. Obama is BLACK for starters he looks black and identifies with African Americans.  Also in America one drop of black blood makes you black, you're only white if your PURE white.  Get over it.
     
    3.  Rush is being taken out of context who cares.  He's the all mighty El Rushbo (yes I listen to his show maybe not regularly but often enough.)
     
    4.  As far as Ramos and Compean goes. . .I really want to know what the fuck the logic was there. I mean I would have pardoned them as soon as it happened.  I don't understand why he didn't.  I'm shocked Andora isn't open borders since she hates Amerca so much.
     
    5.  Why is a One World Government a bad thing? 
  • D6fer said on Feb 09, 2009....
    Sean

    1. Might as well.....that's the oldest profession, and you'll never get rid of it.....so we might as well tax it and regulate some safety.
    2. That is debatable......if you look black, then your black....if you look white, then you are white.
    3. Same here
    4. My biggest beef with GWB......I think his desire to build an American Union (Canada, USA, Mexico).....was the driving force behind his stance on immigration.
    5. Who gets to run it? And what do we sacrifice?
  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 09, 2009....
    Does it really matter who runs it?  If you are saying we have problems organizing fine I agree.  I have a problem with the ALIENated mentality that the ONLY way that the entire world could unite under one banner is if Ultimate Evil leads us to it. 
  • bloc said on Feb 09, 2009....
    The republicans will continue to lose as long as people like rush are major players in the party. Rush is interesting in nothing other than money and power, oh and hillbilly heroine. 
  • D6fer said on Feb 09, 2009....
    Sean.....would you want the Chinese running it? they have the votes.

    bloc....Correction: The Republicans will continue to lose unless they start paying attention to the likes of Limbaugh......The only thing that can save the Republican party is a return to true conservatism.
  • D6fer said on Feb 09, 2009....
    hillbilly heroine? Care to explain that nonsense? 
  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 09, 2009....
    If they stuck to the Rush doctrine they MIGHT be ok.  They absolutely positively have to abandon the Church.  IF they drop the church they'll get a lot of the middle crew.
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 09, 2009....
    Please sort out whatever applies to you... I can't be bothered today....

    I am not talking about punishing whites for previous crimes.  I don't know anymore what the hell I mean... You obviously don't want to understand whatever it is that I meant.  SIGH!!!  I just want fairness for all except pricks like Rush fatso.  He can drop dead.  I have heard more than enough of his crap to understand him exactly.  Get rid of the bum. He is a very negative influence on society.

    Obama is black - PERIOD.  He won't be joining any exclusive white clubs and not because of what he says he is.  He is NOT WHITE... and being white is like being royalty.  You have to be born white or marry really really well.  It sucks!!!!

    I think prostitution should be legal too.  I think recreational drugs should be legal as well.  Except those nasty ones that have arisen because of the pointless super expensive war on drugs.  They are BAD!!!   At least legalise pot, ecstasy, cocaine and heroin.  It will save a trillion by erradicating a lot of drug trading, police corruption, ridiculous drug war persuits, crime (robbery) and probably murders. It is worth a separate thread actually.  If you want to lessen drug damage to society make booze more expensive or strictly regulate it. It causes more death and harm than all the other drugs combined.  Get real. 

    Allow gay marriage - not my thing but it's fair.  Review all victimless crimes, they clog the prisons for no good reason...  and all the other stuff jerks like me are always demanding.   blah blahhhh

    BYEEEE


    Oh... and world government might be our only hope.  But I would need to be supreme dictator.  I vollunteer.......    (make that emperor... I love a bit of drag...)
  • D6fer said on Feb 09, 2009....
    They don't have to abandon the church....if they did that they would lose a bigger portion of their base than the midstreamers that they would gain.

    Just stick to the basics.....shrink the size and scope of the federal government.....lower taxes (actually scrap the tax code completely and impose sales tax only).....keep defense a priority.....enforce the term "illegal"
  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 09, 2009....

    1.  I might be wrong but I think that I'm rather average as Americans go and it's Sarah Palins that keep me from being a Republican.  If they were dropped then it would end up bringing guys like me over.

    2.  I'm for legalzing all victimless crimes every last one them.

  • bloc said on Feb 09, 2009....
    Hillbilly heroine is oxycotin, or however you spell it.
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 09, 2009....
    Sarah Palin is a terrific source of endless entertainment.  Australians love her... and fear her also.....  (must she use "also" so often?)  Personally, and on behalf of my American friends let me say that we owe Palin much in terms of a landslide victory.  She single-handedly screwed the Republicans - but good.  And I bet they thought they might like to screw her.... LOLOLOLOLOL.....  McCain, you old dog you.   Are you sure she isn't secretly working for the democrats?

    Sean, if you became a republican (read neo-Nazi facist pig-dog oppressor bastard) then you too would be a "Sarah Palin".  How do you look in a skirt? Perhaps you are a closet democrat? Or even a free thinking individual.  Let's face it, republicans invented victimless criminality.  What a bunch of hypocritical  perverts!!!!  You people need another party over there.  One with a conscience and real values.  (HA!!!)
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 09, 2009....
    D6fer:  If we MUST have religion, then at least make the perverts pay taxes and force them to keep out of politics.  Can we at least ban scientologist, mormons, lunatic-fundamentalist-creationist-christian whackoes, catholics and capitalist?
    They are dangerous people and bad for the kiddies. Frankly I'm not that keen on judaism and islam either...      Buddhism sounds nice. 
  • stopmediabias said on Feb 10, 2009....

    Virtually every partial or complete socialism or socialist program either fails outright or hits way below expectations.  Even the mini-socialisms in this country would be way better privatized.  Schools, roads, social security, the list is endless of areas that should be part of the free market.

    I thought we over this religious smearing after President Obama.  Technically we elected the most liberal person in the Senate whose preacher(s) fit in the lunatic catagory easier than our preachers do. 

  • PieterOpie said on Feb 10, 2009....
    If you privatise the social services will there be fair competition or only very happy monopolies?  Can we choose who we see for our social security issues?  Will their motivation be service or profit?  Will the wealthy own these businesses?   Or will they be non-profit organisations oh unbiased one?
    ••••••••••••••••••••••••
    I think the president's preacher could be the first bunch we ban.  Fair is fair after all.  I don't see why anyone needs to be told how to worship their gods. Religions live off the guilt and gullibility of the flock.  In any case do we still need these things to explain things we do not understand. It's pure nonsense.
  • stopmediabias said on Feb 10, 2009....

    An atheist talking religion is like a vegetarian talking meat, a complete waist and insulting.    

    The motivation is always profit and I don't buy the whole liberal notion of rich people are bad who walk all over the poor.  This is a level playing field and everyone knows you learn from failure, keep moving forward, and work hard you can do anything in this country.  Companies who compete provide quality service because if they don't they get fired.  The majority of rich people didn't just become rich, they earned it. 

  • PieterOpie said on Feb 10, 2009....
    That stanza on how business works and the rich with the poor, etc. is pure capitalist jargon and apparently it does not work because the entire thing has dropped through the floor and here we are facing recession.  You paint the rich as nice well-meaning folk who would never harm a soul other than send the poor off to war to defend their lifestyle of course.  Rich boys end up as officers, don't they? Or as in Bush's case avoid combat entirely. I should have said "disgustingly wealthy" instead. They by virtue of having many trillions of dollars tied up in personal fortunes - for what reason I cannot imagine - deny the poor from ever getting hold of any of that lovely money.  They got it - the poor don't.  Most super rich people don't mind how they get it. You don't become that rich by being generous or considerate towards your fellow human/citizen.  They are usually republicans and as I have already mentioned, those people are facist Nazis who should all be killed and boiled down for glue.... LOLLOLOLOLOLLL

    (kidding..... sort of.  hehe)

    If these private services are such a great idea, and correct me if I am wrong (as though I need to ask) but did the existing organisations not completely fail the poor with health care?  I have a firm impression that lack of funds was a real problem when needing treatment.  I have read my cases where there was a constant fear of falling ill because it meant either bankruptcy or no treatment at all.  Then there were many cases of insurrance firms being able to screw people around and not pay out for whatever reason, although they might have been members for years.

    I made a claim with my medical insurrance co. and had to make a lot of seperate claims some of which were not elible but because I had not made many claims in the past and was a long term member, paid out generously on all the items.  I was very pleased indeed.  They are a private co. but a non-profit one and the governemnt regulates them closely.   I just cannot imagine that happening in the US.

    Government must regulate all business to prevent abuse and corruption, as well as unwarranted greed.  Greed is NOT good.  The US is.... was a paradise for the greedy. 

    And briefly: To say anyone who works hard has an equal chance to make a fortune is a complete myth.  It just is not that simple.  Some people will never be able to rise out of their poverty and it is not always due to their vices or laziness, etc..  I think you must understand that.  Those people need help.  The government is responsible for their care as much as any tax payer.

    Governments are their for the people; not companies, but companies have more rights than individuals but less responsibility.  That's wrong and unfair.  That is not freedom.  That is tyrrany. 

    Phew...... I need a little lie down now.....         :-)
  • bloc said on Feb 10, 2009....
    "This is a level playing field"

    No it's not, and that is clear to every person with two brain cells. We have a field that is more level than many other "fields", but we can do a lot better.
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 10, 2009....
    LOL... yes...  In Russia they don't have a level playing field.  They have more of an enclosure - a prison yard of sorts.   Putin enjoys playing Monoploy with his old KGB mates whilest he overlooks the yard.  

    Why not just bring back the monarchy with Tzar Boris the First on the throne and lots of serfs and bonded workers to do his bidding.  All those fabulous palaces are going to waste on the people.  Besides they aren't allowed in there anyway. 

    BTW,  how do you spell oligarchy?  Is that right? 
  • Cussane said on Feb 10, 2009....
    well this is certianly entertaining, a couple of points for you all to consider,
     
    1. I worked for an american company with 19 plants across the country, and lo and behold 2 in China, i attended a meeting back in 2003 when the president and the CFO both predicted the whole meltdown, yet guess who continued to import metal into the US from china and now has only 3 plants in the US, masters of there own destruction and i have no sympathy for them. at least have the balls to admit you fucked your own countrymen (and women) all for the almighty dollar,
     
    2. Bob Rae here in Ontario tried to spend his way out of a recession, and took us into a 20 billion dollar defiecit, and our infrastucture is still piss poor and we have a tax rate of 46% for those earning over 90K a year, yes good healthcare, to bad the highways are crap and your cant drive to a hospital,
     
    3. Who and how are they going to pay the 800B back, considering the US is trillions in debt and realistically can never pay it off, what the hell is another 800B, maybe if you sold new york back to the dutch, California back to Mexico and Lousianna back to the French you might have a shot of actually balancing a budget (We Canadians will take Alaska of your hands for a reasonable price but you get to keep palin),
     
    4. The worst of it all is no matter how bad this generation and the one past with rampant spending, loose credit and commericialism up the ying yang screwed eveything up, it will be our kids and thier kids left to clean up the mess, god help them
     
    Cussane
  • D6fer said on Feb 10, 2009....
    You know what I find humorous?.......You libs tell me that I am blind......I keep hearing how the rich are such bad folks.....I guess that includes Warren Buffet and Bill Gates who give billions to some pretty worthy causes......and here's the funny part.....who do you think the bulk of Obama's donations came from? The poor? Ha!.......most of his donations were undisclosed! That is code for RICH!....so who is he beholden to?.....sure he will give money to the poor....lots of it.....they don't have to work for it....just vote for him.....so where is all of that money going to come from?

    Ever heard of a group called THE MIDDLE CLASS?

    It can't come from the rich.....why?....They got him elected!

    So here is what we will see...... a whole bunch of tough talk about Corporations.......taxes being raised across the board......but as you know the rich have a way of sheltering their money.....just ask Theresa Heinz Kerry.....she paid 9% when hubby ran for Pres....hmmmm.....that's less than I paid.......how else can the rich corporations make due with higher taxes?......they can raise prices....then who pays?......well, the poor are getting it for free anyway, so it's not them.

    Ever heard of a group called THE MIDDLE CLASS?

    Do you think that the leaders of the Democrat Party are all poor?

    Do you think that they are willing to part with that money?

    You wake up! The rich have owned this country and EVERY country from day 1
    Ever heard of the Rockefellers?.....still rich.....and still in power.
    The Kennedys?....still rich....and still in power.

    And now weve let some new rich people in to run the place.....people like George Soros.....are you proud of that?
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 10, 2009....
    Cussane:   Just a few things on your post......

    1.    typical isn't it?

    2.    roaming armed gangs don't need roads.

    3a.  why not 1800 billion (or more)? what's the difference?

    3b.  I still call New York "Niewe Amstrerdam".

    4.    I don't have kids, but yes....

    I propose the world sues the USA for this debacle we are in.  Let's say at least a trillion per nation (plus court costs of course) and make them pay for their part in polluting the planet  AND some of those crappy TV shows they keep exporting... (they must be punished for them)  AND for inventing rap music (aaaarrrg!!!)
  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 10, 2009....
    Can the US sue for reconstruction money from WW2.  England is the only country to have paid us back in full and they finished like two years ago.
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 10, 2009....
    Sure... go ahead.  Put it on the tab....  or we can take it out off what you owe us.
  • stopmediabias said on Feb 11, 2009....

    Look at the poverty figures from just about any census and you will see that poverty regardless of who is in office stays fairly even.  With this haven't liberals been trying to bail out the poor for decades?  And what about the droves of people who started out with nothing and became wealthy?  Let capitalism work, distinguish between poor and lazy and kick the lazy in the behind instead of throwing money at them. 

     

  • PieterOpie said on Feb 11, 2009....
    According to the guru of the middle class, Oprah, more than 40 million people in America live below the poverty line.  I think it is wrong to expect either party to fix this problem although I'd like to think the democrats would be inclined to tackle that more than the others but you say that they don't.  I believe it.  This says to me that it is not a matter for party politics but the system is failing these people and it is that that I am more inclined to want to see changes in rather than this football nobody wants behaviour of the major players.  That was a clumsy way of saying (tired,,,,) the system is faulty.  There is a very small elite group of billionaires who together hold unthinkable wealth.  I think that is just as obscene as almost 10% of poverty stricken people who miss out on all kinds of things a devoloped nation has available to average folk.  That is plainly wrong.

    As to lazy or poor or disabled or whatever....  Lazy people obviously cannot expect a decent standard of living.  Naturally steps must always be taken to minimise social secuity fraud.  However there will alway be those who get away with it and those who get unfairly swept up and lumped with them.  You can only do your best to sort them out.  But I do think the genuine poor are often there because of circumstances beyond their control and to break out of it can be literally impossible.  Those people deserve better.  They should not suffer from hunger or homelessness and lack of medical care.  The christian charities seem to ignore these people as well.   Why?

    I would like to see the wealthy elite manage with a little less.  No person needs that much money in personal wealth under any circumstances.  They could never ever spend it.  Surely higher taxes for them can't be too unreasonable. 

    anyway.  I have to rest/sleep.... see you tomorrow....
  • bloc said on Feb 11, 2009....
    @smb

    You seem to be confusing separate things. Static poverty levels, and I'm not sure that's true, are not an example of a level playing field. Some poor people become rich also isn't an argument that the playing field is level. We can take a country like mexico and find some poor people that have gotten rich. Mexico certainly isn't a level playing field.
  • andora said on Feb 11, 2009....
    sorry - yesterday was a beach day

    after

    THE ROLFING

    goodness, I'm still moaning and groaning from all the fantastic pain

    ROLFING IS THE BEST STRUCTURAL TREATMENT I'VE EVER INVESTED IN


    anyway

    not all strippers are prostitutes

    and i bet there are a few million from the financial industry that wished they could get a buck tucked ;]

    1. legalize drugs - tax the shit out of them

    2. legalize prostitution - tax the SHIT out of the johns

    3. One World Order already exists - and, in the future, once we get the populace involved it will develop a heart, much like a zygot is in line for its heart (personality). as long as the nationalists keep crowing about being the best nation, blah blah blah, we will have to fend off prejudice, bigotry and jealousy on the part of rabid nationalists. one of the few uniters, or few things that could unite the bigoted billions is a great demonstration of earthchanges, to let everyone know that it is already one nation called Earth.

    4. Our secret government spends all our resources and people trying to keep their entrenched hegemony secret - in this I believe the bush's were complicit in 911. My friend the stock broker was witness to the military that came to the towers weeks prior to 911 for 'war game' drills (they were actually re-tooling the towers electrical "security system" winkie winkie - under the guise of military preparedness). so if you were not there, you have no real information to share, I have more info from more i witnesses, but I won't bother with the Limbaugh types because your brain is like a bear trap, once its shut -

    5. punishing someone for the genocide and military injustice of the past isn't what I was suggesting either....learning from the past and creating better, more humane policies is more like it...but, as long as there is national denial of the several holocausts that the US army has created around the world, we will be doomed to repeat. Which is what we are doing in the Middle East. what the fuck does Obama think he is doing allowing drones to continue to drop bombs on stone age types that just want a little water and an end to sexual slavery?

    5. Palin? well she's a party all unto herself - she doesn't like the Republicans or the US, she likes oil companies...she's the reincarnation of Ellie May from the Beverly Hillbillies who is willing to make a few compromises cus she's tired of being bullied around by a bunch of tree-hugging nationalists who are keeping her from drilling Anwar

    6. Socialism and Capitalism are good bedfellows...I agree with everything Pieter said about this topic - in fact, she was brilliant about the issue....I will throw in Democracy as the method of determination about who sleeps on which side of the bed. and, I am angry about the mudslinging that has been done to those who believe in socialism - less than a hundred years ago, socialists were thrown in jail for printing newspapers - and other very democratic things like that!

    I'm GLAD THAT THE RUSH LIMBAUGH PARTY INNAUGERATED SOCIALISM FOR THE VERY RICH, now us little people can get some tooo! no? did I hear properly? what's good for the rich isn't good for the poor? which is why the house republicans sided against the stimulus and why the senate tried to convert the populists socialism to more tax cuts for the wealthy. they hate the poor, except for maybe their fav prostitute, but if it wasn't for the impoverished classes these freaks wouldn't beable to buy virgins. how do the ugly benefit from poverty? let me count the ways!

    Pieter/lucy I think you are a brilliant writer, some have suggested that I had taken on an alt called Pieter, but to tell you the truth, I can't write as well as you do. kudos;]


  • PieterOpie said on Feb 11, 2009....
    Bloc......  I am a very confused person in many confusing ways.  I have lost the plot and need to keep track of what the hell I'm doing.  I get entire threads mixed up and frankly can't remember what I've said and to whom I've said it.  I'd be a lousy debater because it is about now I'd rather concede than try to save my ass.

    Frankly why I am arguing over your poor and rich is right now a bit of a puzzle.  They can take over for me and fight their own battle.  It's really none of my business.  I just like to stick up for the underdog I guess and have a  go at the obscenely rich.  I might go yell at the christians for a while.

  • PieterOpie said on Feb 11, 2009....
    Oh wow, Andora.... you give me a second wind.  LOL  But I am becoming bogged down here.  I need a little man on my shoulder to remind me what I have already said and when - and occasionally also why. 

    Right now the little man can take over for me.... I need some sleep.

    Did I read that you think I am a "she"?  I'm a little girly but definitely a man.... well, mostly. 

    I like what you just said about socialism and capitalism.  Of course it must be democratic.  Italy used to have democratic communism.  It didn't work but then nothing did in Italy at the time.  But then until Obama came along I think democracy had been mostly a theory in the US for the last decade or more.  With so much misinformation and powerful campaign of lies the people did not have a chance of voting properly.  Unless they know the true state of affairs how can they make a democratic choice.  It means whoever can lie more convincingly is the winner.  And Bush never told the truth in his whole life.  It is paramount that a FREE and independant press/media get stuck into the real nitty gritty and bring the truth to the people. 

    AAAAAAAAnyway....  I am soooo sick of this thread.  I am going mental.  like I said I feel like yelling at some right wing crazy christians for a change....  Their such an easy target and they just smile vacantly and say stupid things like bless you, and may jesus come into my heart.... Yeah, my ass more likely...

    Bye... see you "out there"  - I'm pulling the plug on this thread.

    SICK OF IT!!!!!!  
  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 11, 2009....
    40 million so without doing the math that comes out to what 15% or about double the amount of people without work. . .actually that doesn't sound bad at all.
  • D6fer said on Feb 11, 2009....
    Pieter....40 million below the poverty line? The liberals of this country have done a fantastic job of raising the poverty line.......Here are some of the struggles of the "poor" in america:

    • 43% own their homes.

    • The “average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.”

    • They have significantly more “living space” than does the average citizen living in affluent international cities such as London, Paris, Vienna and Athens. Only 6% of those living below America’s poverty line reported their living conditions as being “overcrowded.”

    Next, consider that most today take pleasure in amenities that were considered luxuries just a generation or two ago. For instance, of the 37 million labeled “poor” in the U.S., 80% enjoy the comforts of air-conditioning, as opposed to only 36% of the entire population in 1970.

    America’s “poor” are also swimming in technology-related goods and services:

    • 97% own color televisions (over half have two or more)

    • 63% have either cable or satellite access

    • Over 99% have refrigerators

    • 73% own microwave ovens

    • One in three households have automatic dishwashers

    • One-third have cell phones, landline phones and telephone answering machines—less than a paltry 10% “survive” without telephone service at all.

    • Almost three-quarters own a car and—more surprisingly—over 30% own two cars or more!


    These are hardly the difficult conditions most Americans envision when describing the poor. One is left to wonder: Where are the millions of U.S. citizens who are living in “incredible poverty,” as so many politicians and media pundits adamantly assert?


  • D6fer said on Feb 11, 2009....
    In 2003, the Catholic Campaign for Human Development asked the following question of the general public: “How would you describe being poor in the U.S.?” The vast majority of responses indicated that “homelessness, hunger, not being able to eat ‘properly,’ and not being able to meet basic needs” were criteria for considering someone was “poor.”
  • SeanRenaud said on Feb 11, 2009....

    1.  Where do these states come from D6?  Normally I don't question stats but the idea that 43% of Americans period own homes sounds pretty high to me.  I mean unless you get to count my sister as a home owner because despite being in college her mailing address is my parents house.  Other than that that number sounds. . .high.

    2.  Half the shit you listed are quite simply requirements of life.  I'll let you pass on the television.  It isn't really needed for life.  We are pretty damn close to a world where cable/INTERNET is required in order to be competitive.  A refridgerator is not a luxury item.  Period.  A microwave. . .I'm willing to conceed this point but only to not argumentive for the same of being.  Though they are cheap.

    The same goes for phone service.  Maybe you don't need all three but having a phone is not a luxury. 

    3. 

  • D6fer said on Feb 11, 2009....
    my bad.....i meant to post the source
  • D6fer said on Feb 11, 2009....
    sean....it's not a requirement to own a home...hell....it's even debatable whether it's even a good idea as opposed to renting.
    Air conditioning is not a requirement
    TV is not a requirement
    Cable....no
    fridge....yes
    micro....no.....but you could probably get one at a yard sale for 10 bucks
    dishwashers?....hell...i don't even have one
    a phone....that's a tough one......when I was a kid not everyone had one....we had a "party line"....we shared a line with 2 or 3 neighbors
    two cars....no....1 ...maybe

    but if you think about it, you could survive without any of the above listed amenities.
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 11, 2009....
    LOLOLOLOL... D6fer...   You great git!!!  How old are those statistics?  How many have been evicted from those homes lately?  Does "own" included those who owe the bank their kidneys and heart as well as the kids?  Does a bridge over-hang constitute a "home" or the family car?  I guess a trailer is a home and you can own a trailer.

    And that lovely list of techno-toys, colour TV, what-not.... all on the VISA card I suppose?  Most of you freeloaders OWN NOTHING!!!! 

    Take you statistics and shove them up your bank manager!!!!  Don't bore me with fairytales.  WAKEY WAKEY!!!!!   It's 2009 now....

    15% of a population living BELOW the poverty line means hardship you self-cenred spoiled brat.  Obviously you need to take a car trip and see what poor means.  Try living like them for ONE WEEK instead of speculating how well off they are.  Poverty means POOR. That means NOT moneyed.  NO luxuries.  NO extras.  NO personal disasters allowed, because they cannot afford to get sick, lose a job, lose a partner, lose anything.  BELOW the poverty line means having less than that!!!

    I want to know how you live...  Have you ever gone without?  I don't mean gone without a new car, or a vacation or plastic surgery...  I mean dinner, or new shoes BECAUSE the other only pair have holes in them.  Do your children have good teeth?  When you get a pain in your well-fed body do you just ignore it - do you have a choice?  Do you owe money on your credit card.

    I own everything I have in my possession outright.  I have NEVER owed anybody any money - ever.  I'm not rich.  I saved for everything BEFORE buying it.  I went without. That is why this crisis goes on around me, not to me.  I don't even have a credit card.  Paying unneccesary interest is as smart as shoving bricks up your fanny!!!! 

    So PLEASE... don't list all the goodies they have or that somebody has when obviously only some of them actually own any of it.  The banks do.

    The banks have owned your souls for years. Maybe that is why you don't give a fuck about your poor.  You're alright.  You want for nothing... or are you out on the street too?  No.  You have managed to plug your fancy computer in somewhere... you must have some shelter.  You must pay the phone bills. 

    Thank god you're not in politics.  The poor might simply die and rot in hell.  I guess that is one solution.   

    In Mugabwe they bulldoze their poor out of sight.  hehehe  But the president lives in a palace................. the poor eat grass and dirt.  He dines on caviar and peacock tongues..........  

    In America it just takes a different form but the gap between the poor and the disgracefully rich is just as large and just as obscene.   You need to develope your sense of empathy.  God is going to smash your head..... if you believe in god.  Trust me.  You need to learn some life lessons.   God or Karma demands it and I advise it.

    In a culture where people are told that looks mean everything and so many values are lost in an ocean of self-indulgence and greed for instant gratification, naturally the poor miss out.  Who has time to worry about such unpleasantness.  It might give you wrinkles.....    When plastic surgery for mum becomes more important than a college fund for the kids it's time to take stock.  When youthful looks are more desireable than character lines then your values are dying of decay.  You cannot have enough plastic surgery to hide the flaws in the society.  When your teenage daughter want a nose-job for Xmas you are in trouble folks.

    When you will spend millions on fixing up appearances but nobody knows why everybody is depressed it is time to abandon ship and move the kids to another country where life is still fairly normal or their kids are going to be crazy as they pop out of the womb. 
  • curmudgeon said on Feb 12, 2009....
    Pieter - you'd think it is time to move on, especially these days, but when Bush got re-elected all these silly libs declared that they would emigrate to Canada and never did. Why?

    Meanwhile, all these people we oppressed during the 20th Century still came over legally and illegally. The last time I was at Killington the entire ski staff was from Australia. So many people would rather have crumy jobs here than be even in the middle class elsewhere. So many would rather work newspaper stands and drive cabs and buy into franchises and open restaurants here and work their asses off than work as doctors and engineers back home. Why?

    Because whatever problems we're having, owever bad it might seem, we're the greatest nation the world has ever known, and they all want to be a part of it. I mean seriously - there's never any reporting, commentary or mention about what's going on in your part of the world unless there's a forest fire or somebody shoots up a school or neo-nazi skinheads are going around beating up immigrants. Nobody gives a crap who your prime minister or whatever is.

    Gee, maybe that's why you're so angry at Americans.
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 12, 2009....
    Blah blah blah......

    I am not representing your liberals. Get off my back you jerk.  Why should I know they didn't go to Canada?  Things were a worry with Nazis in the White House you know.  I can't blame them for speculating.

    About those you oppressed in the last few centuries... only SOME came to America.  Most of them were either killed by your bombs or crippled or mentally rendered incapable of fleeing whatever situation you caused in their many many countries of origin.  I suppose compared to the mess you left behind the USA would be better.

    What is a Killington???  A place of mass execution?     ahh...  I see... Aussie staff eh?  Maybe they are preferred over your ski set wankers. I don't know.  What the FUCK????  What does that prove darling.... honey cheeks.... snookems...?????? 

    Your movies make the US look fabulous!!!  Of course lots of idiots and ignorent fools flock to your god-forsaken country.  I don't control them either and take NO resposibility for them.  You are stuck with them, not meeee....  hahahahaha.

    Why don't you find all those people you mention and ask them what they think NOW and if the place lived up to expectations.  I'll bet each and every one of them - 100% of them.... ALL OF THEM.... sorely regret it. 

    You also make a huge assumption which is completely irrational, namely that the USA is the best, the biggest, the this and that..... WRONG.  That is the opinion of stupid misguided patriotic twits.  Surely you do not believe that crap.

    Your nation is nothing special - I promise you.  It is however heavily polluted, overrun with republicans and neo-nazis, you are in so much debt, you are despised by the planet earth, etc etc etc....    You have nasty missiles otherwise you might have been told to bugger off years ago and THAT is all.  You don't have anything not avaiable eslewhere.....  EXCEPT those little pretzels filled with peanut butter.... hmmmmmm..... they are so good.....hmmm YUMMM.....

    Anyway.. I will ignore the silly xenophobic ending of your comment.  You really shouldn't expose yourself like that.  You belittle yourself.   Your thoughts about Australia match your thoughts about the rest of the world.  You can't even find  the rest of the world on a map I read.  It is the large other bit.

    Your ignorence about my or other countries does not mean anything to us.  So what.  The less you know about us might prove to be a fucking blessing you dickhead.  I do know the Americans that do endure the lengthy flight like the place. Well, they say so anyway.  We have paved roads now you know and we use dollars too so tourists don't freak out too much.  And only last year toilets were installed in many of our hotels so you don't have to shit in the gutters anymore - where there are gutters that is.  BTW  We don't see many skinheads here... that is just the fashion of hairstyles now..... I think it is in the US too......

    And finally... I am not angry at Americans as such... just America; and why is too difficult for you to understand mate so don't bother guessing.

    You know.... you really are a dunch aren't you?  It is cute when you go off with all your egocentric rants about this and that.... You're quite sexy when you are indignantly aggitated.    Is that your natural hair colour???????? 
  • stopmediabias said on Feb 12, 2009....
     
    The main thing here is people in this country do better when they are challenged.  Everyone can get more education, everyone can get another job, everyone can move up the economic ladder, they just have to be sick enough of their present position.  The link above shows that poverty is always going to be a segment of society, we can help people who are in poverty but cannot help people get out of poverty, the have to do it themselves.  This doesn't count the disabled, or crazy people, or people that have suffered catastrophic loss. 
     
    I would also like to know what the hell the rich have to do with poor being poor in this country.  There seems to be a blame the rich everytime hard times hit. 
     
     
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 12, 2009....
    My dear Stopper, Those stats. are from years and years ago. They are hardly relevant to the present state of affairs.  I trashed the offending document at once!!!
    I don't want misleading info to enter the debate.  Shame on you!!!
    Recently on the show by the Guru to middle America, the Oprah Show, it was stated that a staggering 86% of people in the USA HATE their job.  Do you expect them all to quit and go looking - especially now that jobs are vaporising as we speak... er, type.  86% is one very unhappy workforce and that makes for very unhappy couples and unhappy families.  STRESS....  DEPRESSION.... CONFLICT... SUICIDE.... VIOLENCE.... CHAOS.... DISASTER....
    sorry, just a bit of word association.
    I agree that poverty will always exist and I imagine the membership of that sad group is rising fast, what with all the unemloyment and lay-offs, etc.  But poverty and hardship can mean two seperate things.  One can be poor and still be happy provided one is not suffering hardship which causes trauma and a lack of basic needs to be available.  Waving numbers about how many poor and this and that does not really reveal the level of real suffering.  You need to talk to the poor to find out.  But you are there, not me. 

    I would like to also see stats (up to date ones that is) about the disgustingly wealthy people in our respective nations.  How much personal wealth they are hogging and what for.  I would love to know why any one person needs to hoard billions of dollars.  They already have all the material things they could ever want.  They is nothing more to buy.  Their companies have a life of their own and are separate from their private wealth so what the fuck is all that money for?  It is all money that other people do not have.  That's logical isn't it?  They got it - we don't.  How much should the ultra rich be able to accumilate?  Unlimited amounts?  Why?  That's insane.  Every dollar they suck out of the system is now gone.  The poor will never see those bucks and we lucky not-so-poor won't either.  How does that help anyone? Including the rich???

    Those obscenely rich bastards can spare a few million here and there to use for all kinds of reasons that ensure they stay rich and powerful.  We hear of corrupt politicians on a regular basis.  One was impeached last week I believe.  How many don't we know about?  The dealings of the rich and powerful are just part of the basic establishment and to deny it is rather naive.  Wealth brings power and influence and those people want to remain powerful and get even richer.  This means that money is usually involved and it always moves in one direction; to them - nowhere else.  The rich do not manipulate things so that the poor will receive some benefit.  That would be nice but highly unlikely.  That is not the way it works.  When have companies like the oil comapanies ever done more than some token thing for the disadvantaged?  How many of your billionaires do what Bill Gates has done.  He will give away most of his money before he dies.  Bravo.  THAT is what extreme wealth can be used for but most rich pricks give it to their spoiled brats.  Perrish the thought.....  And that Dorathy is how the rich affect the poor. 

    If I were supreme dictator (LOL) i would have the rich dragged into the street and hung up by their assets and sieze their wealth.  Simple.  I would cap the amount they could accumilate and make sure their money stayed in the country.  Then get some clever people to design a fairer system and start fresh.

    I have flights of fancy too you see.... LOL
  • stopmediabias said on Feb 12, 2009....

    PO-This very notion of spreading the wealth has never ever worked, it encourages laziness and keeps people poor.  When the government starts dictating how much money a person make then that is the beginning of the end.

    I've said this many time before

  • stopmediabias said on Feb 12, 2009....

    youch-cut me right off.

    What I've said before when it comes to money no amount of money is enough.  This is a free market system.  If someone can legally manipulate the system and make billions then lucky for them.  You restrict that freedom you restrict growth.  And how much money in a course of a year do all these evil rich people pump into charity or good causes?

  • PieterOpie said on Feb 12, 2009....
    I doubt that anyone has ever spread the wealth in an intelligent way.  Has it been tried?  I don't mean Soviet communism or Marxism or whatever its called.  Those systems were doomed to fail because too many idiots got involved and they were despotic murdering bastards.  That will take the edge off anything don't you think?

    What I am talking about is not so different from our current systems.  I just want limits and controls over extreme personal wealth and good sound social services which can be financed by higher tax.   I think people should pay more tax.  If they do not provide for everybody then obviously they are not enough.  It is up to the government to spend them correctly.

    Ridiculous amounts are wasted in so many areas and priorities are all screwed up.  I see no reason why politicians have to have the very best and most expensive things available to them.  The are public SERVANTS. Not princes of the realm.  Far too much is spent on unnecessary luxury to the extreme.  Trim that right back and there would already be a nice big fat bonus for the poor who have bugger all.

    You mention growth.  This is a myth.  Economies CANNOT grow forever and ever.  The world, the population, the resources ARE NOT INFINITE.  It is that simple.  You cannot sell more cars or TVs when everybody already has one (to use an over-simplified example).  Do we need to replace our cars every few years?  NO. it is a disgusting waste of resources. Same with all consumer products. Everything these days is designed with built-in redundancy.  WASTEFUL!!!!

    We are supposed to be focusing on lessening our impact on the environment.  You cannot separate policy from the environmental problem.  It is our most important issue right now.  If we argue in the old way and insist on continued growth we will run into trouble and in a big way.  The human race has got to redesign the whole thing and we cannot allow a few super wealthy moguls to control how it must be.  They will have to go.  We should not have to sacrifice our future - and not that far in the future at that - for the greed of a small percentage of filthy rich bastards who don't give a damn.  Our children and their children will pay dearly if the current system is allowed to continue to take resources just to make money buy selling crap to replace stuff they sold to us earlier but has broken down.  ENOUGH!!!!  You get my gist.

    The physical earth is finite.  Things do run out.  Bush's pipe dream of going to Mars are ridiculous. We are nowhere near ready.  We cannot hope to plunder space for our goodies.  That ain't gonna happen anytime soon and if we do not change our ways then we never will go out there.  

    We have to accept that life has peaked in terms of luxury and toys and what not.  From now on we either slow down and simplify our lives or we perish.  It's that simple. 

    The problem is that no one will.  China won't slow down. Russia won't. Neither will India, or anyone else.  The result will be a collapse and literally major upheaval.  We only have to look at the current crisis to see how very vulnerable our modern lifestyle is.  If any vital utility like water or power is somehow cut off from any city for example you have chaos and a deadly situation.  Will workers work for free?  Will the police keep order if they are hungry?  Who will deliver supplies to your supermarket if things grind to a halt? 

    The military.... that might just happen in a few years.  One never knows.
  • D6fer said on Feb 12, 2009....
    Pieterpuffer......I grew up extremely poor by todays standards....so go fuck yourself....I don't have to take a drive, because I lived it.

    btw.....why is it the banks responsibility that people get in over their heads? You boast of your own personal responsibility....why is it not good enough for the "poor"?
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 12, 2009....
    I did not come from the world of Vogue Living either you know....  and I as I have said repeatedly... if I could fuck myself I would be deliriously happy!!!  So try something else you rather limited wit!!!

    We were so poor, beggars gave us money!  We were so poor We cut out coins in half.  We were so poor we ate sand and mud on Sunday.  We were..... NAAAAHHH!!!!

    The banks should know whether a person can repay a loan or not!!!  Is that not basic common sense?  You need to ask that????  The poor will grab any money you wave in front of them.... it's a whole new concept for them.  QUICK grab it and run!!!  It might be the only time they see real money!!!  

    Serously... you want to let customers set the rules for who qualifies for a loan.  Poor people are more often than not not very educated and don't understand complex interest repayment plans.  I won a scholarship in high mathematics and I get nauseas thinking about that stuff... Neither are the poor very money-wise. They get it and it goes straight out again.  They don't have bank accounts with spare cash sitting around.  They cannot be relied on to tell banks they are good for a loan and have no foreseeable problems in meeting their repayments.  THAT IS LUNACY!!!  The banks know what they should be doing... why didn't they do it?  It IS their responsibility.  So please... don't be silly.... you are always being silly.... I think you are taking me for a ride mister..... this will only end in tears if you continue to mock me with these ridiculous arguments..... 

    and I refuse to cry with you watching!!!!!!!!!  
  • D6fer said on Feb 12, 2009....
    Pieter....it was our government that literally forced banks to make loans to people who could not afford them....that is what started this whole fiasco.
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 12, 2009....
    Oh.......  Is that so.  How did they do that and how did they "force" them?  I thought your government has a policy of not interfering in the free market and made a point of as little regulation as possible.  How does that fit in with your statement?  That would not be the best advice in my opinion.  Somehow that makes no sense.  What would be the point?  Why call them loans instead of cash grants?

    I am not happy........ please explain.....
  • Cussane said on Feb 13, 2009....
    Ok, so after all of the above, here is my solution(s),
     
    1. Cussane for emperor of the World, I will be a benovlent Dictator and have no more than 6 wives at any 1 time,
    2. Governments will be forbidden to run a deficit, live within thier means,
    3. Flat tax rate of 15% for everyone
    4. Budget surplus's must be used for - 25%- national debt reduction, 25%- education programs, 25%- enviromental programs, 25% returned to taxpayers
    5. Space- the final frontier- exploration
    6. Put service back in Public Service
    7. Student loans/grants can be repaid not by cash but equilent time spent in a public service or charitable program
     
    Cussane
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 13, 2009....
    Oh very funny... do you really think that is going to work?  As soon as the smallest crisis comes along it will be chaos and mayhem!!!
    Sorry but your ideas are ridiculous.  I cannot see you with more than two or three wives at most.  It is unworkable with six.  Are you mad???

    In any case, I already put my bid in - for the dictatorship, not the wives.....  I beat you to it by several days.


    Please say "sir" from now on, OK?
  • D6fer said on Feb 13, 2009....
    pieter.....the attorney general under Bill Clinton said publicly that there would be "consequences" if they did not comply.....that is a threat.
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 13, 2009....
    Only if the "consequences" are deleterious to those who did not comply.

    It could also mean he'll take you out for dinner.... or he will buy you a cute puppy....  or virtually anything.   It is not necessarily a threat.  This all sounds so wild and fanciful to me. 

    I'm not saying your lying or wrong, just that it sounds so fantastical.

    I can only say that you people need all the help you can get.  Good luck.
  • bloc said on Feb 13, 2009....
    "it was our government that literally forced banks to make loans to people who could not afford them....that is what started this whole fiasco."

    This is absolutely false. 
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 13, 2009....
    I can't imagine a government would do such a thing.  It just doesn't make sense.
  • Cussane said on Feb 13, 2009....
    PO- Not sure I agree, six wives still leaves me one day off, banks, car dealers, credit card companies and ourselves are to blame, issue one bad loan and then issue three more to try to recoup lossess and so on and so on. somewhere along the line i think we forgot that loans and credit had to be paid back and not by another loan or credit card. i remember mastercard used to have an office at our med school, gave all first year students credit cards figuring they were good for it when they graduated problem was they were graduating with med school debt, student loans, car loans etc, guys were graduating 100k in debt before they even started work. so yes beregulation is some to blame but there is enough to go around for everyone Cussane
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 13, 2009....
    Loans are harder to get in my country but the credit cars is still the money pit of choice by those who seek reward before exertion and effort.   I remember years ago a friend came back from a holiday in Europe and had brought small gifts.  After the verbal slide show - almost as tedious as the one in the dark - she told me she was back to work on Monday to earn the money to pay for the holiday.

    I was rendered silent but visibly shocked if not a little disturbed.  I broke my silence with a tirade of questions and comments both of which clearly indicated my disgust at having to work for a holiday you would not get after all the hard work was done.  My refusal to take "to the card" was reinforced that day.  It struck me as mentally disturbing to not only work for a holiday long gone  but to pay a lot of interest for the dubious privilege of doing business in this ass-up kind of way.  The concept was alien to me.  I still do not have a credit card.

    I suppose loans are basically the same thing except you get the cash in a lump. I always felt that banks were allowed to gather suckers and there was no way they were being held back from this people fishing.  It was a party 24/7/365....

    I never actually realised how far this madness could be taken.  Now I know.  All the way to hell.  I am grateful for my old-fashioned notions about work and reward.  

    However the responsibility must be met by both the bank and the suckers who ran up the debts.  The banks were just like drug dealers.  They didn't force anyone to take the money or spend it, regardless of whether the banks were urged to do it or not.  We are all responsible for our own actions and weaknesses.  So the mums and dads living in the car with the kiddies can only kick themselves in the head for their misery.  They had all those lovely things and all that lovely status and enjoyed all that lovely envy from their friends but now it's time to pay.   

    I wonder..... do they deserve to be rescued?  They were just dumb idiots after all.  Isn't cruel to punish the mentally retarded?  Can we let them suffer like this?

    Well they took my economy down as well.  Take them outside and shoot them and end the pain.  It's the humane thing.....
  • D6fer said on Feb 14, 2009....
    pieter......I'll give you kudos for the money management....I often wished that I had taken that path.....my father in law always said "credit is the scourge of the nation".....boy was he right!
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 14, 2009....
    Actually I am not a good money person at all.  I just didn't spend money I didn't have and that is about it.  My partner nagged me into getting superannuation, which I did (nervously) and it is that part of my modest fortune that suffered during this gigantic stuff-up.  I am ignoring the portfolio and hope they come back in a few years.  If not I'll take it out of my friend's hide!!! 
    I have reached a crucial point in this debate where I lose interest and conclude there is no point in going on.  I might go a bit silly for a few posts as is my want... or I may simply fade away and leave you economoc masochists to go over it again and again and again.......    (groan)........   I've had it.   aaaaaarrrrggg!!!!
  • D6fer said on Feb 15, 2009....
    I had never heard the term superannuation before now.......so I googled it....sounds a little better than our social security system, but not much....at least you have the option of adding to it if you want.....although I still don't like the idea of politicians managing my retirement!
  • PieterOpie said on Feb 15, 2009....
    They don't manage it.  They barely manage to stand up. The politicians devise regulations and skim taxes off your total whenever the wind changes or if it's your birthday.... all kinds of reasons. They have eased up on that lately but it used to be quite ridiculous.

     Specialist financial advisors get to play with our money.  I see it as being an exercise in pure luck unless you happen to understand finance.  I don't.  I loath economic matters.

    If you pick a crooked manager then you are stuffed and may even end up in debt.   Fees you see.....   they might lose all your money but you still pay fees.

    Others are much more reasonable.  Buyer beware.
  • Voltaire said on Mar 08, 2009....
    Is he keeping his promises?
    Tell me one politician that does. I have yet to meet or see one.
    They promise things so you will vote for him/her. That goes for all.

    Is he really doing what is in the best interest of this nation?
    Is any politician working for the interest of a nation? I have yet to see one.
    Are you working for the best interest of your employer?

    Is this new "stimulus" Bill really going to stimulate the economy? Or just the pockets of his contributors and support chain?

    No the cash should have gone to the people, they are what make the economy go round. They are the ones that spend cash.
    And with a budget many might have had the guts to start their own company.
    Maybe renovate the house, buy new car(s), buy new house, build a new house and so on...
  • Cussane said on Mar 08, 2009....
    1. No- Gitmo is a perfect example, if he really wanted to close it then the inmates would be in levenworth right now, 2. No politican does, he does what is in the best interest of being re-elected that is what happens when politics become a career instead of a calling to serve the public, and no i do what is in my best interest, companies do what is in thier best interest why should'nt I 3. Hell no, wait and see what is the actual amount that makes it to people who actually buy things, instead of special interests, unions and government contracts, i predict the pricer of hammers will top out at 700.00 Cussane
  • D6fer said on Mar 08, 2009....
    Here's the thing though.....Obama ran on "change"....he was supposed to be different....but in a good way....he's not.......his administration was supposed to have "double transparency"...it does'nt......lobbyists were to be a thing of the past.....he is loading up his administration with them....he promised fiscal responsibility.....and we instead got the biggest pork barrel spending plan in the history of the world.

    If this stimulus was about bailing out the banks because of bad debt.....then why not issue "debt vouchers" to each and every american in debt, and allow them to pay it off?......the banks would still get the money.
  • andora said on Mar 09, 2009....
    8 weeks D6

    give it a flipp'in break and have a heart

    Obama inherited a collapsing society

    and you want us to whip him for not being super man?

    your shrieking about Obama not offering change is impotent and useless


  • andora said on Mar 09, 2009....
    round and round the blame/shame show goes

    how come no one is talking about the real culprit here?

    the BANKING LAWS

    oh, i forgot....they were axed by the de-regulation hoardes!

    Banks have been allowed to hold only 10% of their depositors funds!

    these banking laws are simply unsustainable and are designed to fail as banks have continued to do since the beginning of US bank charters. If one studies the history of banking law, then it becomes obvious that our economic structure is simply paper - no gold, over inflated housing, agriculture practices that are unsustainable, and energy policy that is unsustainable and trade policies that has ended productivity. this is a house of cards built upon unsustainable banking laws! who are you going to blame? The private corporation, The Federal Reserve sets our fiscal policies. For whom do they do this? Not for Americans....for banking communities that skim from the top, let it collapse and then open a new bank with a different name. Same thing as using an alt when no one responds to you in the first place. Same thing as killing the body and being reborn as a new and innocent being. Corruption always changes its identity....because this is how it keeps its power!

    so, blaming homeowners for wanting the basics in life enough to misrepresent their finances is like faulting a starving person for stealing from a farmers field! Imbeciles!
  • D6fer said on Mar 09, 2009....
    agreed on the banking problem.....but Obama contradicts himself so badly there is no excuse....at best we are witnessing the opitomy of the peter principle
  • bloc said on Mar 09, 2009....
    "Banks have been allowed to hold only 10% of their depositors funds!"

    This is one of the many deregulations that helped create this crisis.
  • D6fer said on Mar 09, 2009....
    ooops.....epitome

  • andora said on Mar 12, 2009....
    Obama is caught in a catch 22

    the system he is attempting to remedy is unsustainable and designed to canibalize itself....i think he is wrestling this two headed dragon with an impressive and grounded stance. I feel as though he will identify tremendous pockets of graft that have enabled the gov to run a Madoff style graft game with taxpayers. Instead of exposing the graft they have pitted taxpayers against those who wish to boycott the graft of this military/industrial graft, those who do not pay taxes. Its like going along with the domestic abuser as a way of keeping an income to pay for a worthless piece of property.

    Fortunately Obama has a heartmate, one who is as honest with him as he is with her....In this, they have the ability to cut the crap while effectually watching each others backs and making sure neither one loses perspective in a megolamaniac type of way. Bush did the megolamaniac thing without much apparent pushback from his other half.


  • D6fer said on Mar 12, 2009....
    I'm afraid it is all smoke and mirrors andora......Bush, Obama, Clinton, McCain.....it's all the same....make way for the new world order.
  • bloc said on Mar 15, 2009....
    I go back and forth on this one. It's not all the same, but there's not much difference. Clinton's financial advisers were largely responsible for our current situation and Bush's were happy to continue down that road. Now Obama has appointed many of the Clinton people. Hopefully they've learned something in that time.

    Btw, I think these people are better than Bush's. Paulson was one of the people that got super rich off of these over leveraged assets. He just left before it crumbled, with all of the money he fraudulently made.

    They are all insiders and I think that is the problem.
  • andora said on Mar 15, 2009....
    agreed bloc

    except for the fact that 10% fractional banking laws have been the norm since before the Great Depression....for some reason this is one of those fallible policies that NEVER gets questioned. Has more to do with the Olagarchy, and their way of hedging all economies. Dems or Repubs, like you said, are all complicit. The laws have been and still are defunct and unsustainable. These are spiritual issues that the masses are facing both individually and collectively. We have to change our fundamental agreement. all of the political isms are only so good as our own relation to the earth and the benefits of this relationship.

    the earth will no longer support this illusion and i hope that we stop ignoring our fundamental unsustainablility. Now that the bee's are refusing to service big Agri-business, we should become proactive about living within thier laws bc we are not seperate

    aloha
  • andora said on Mar 15, 2009....
    can u spell famine?

    the status quo is broken, we can not tweek the problem if nature herself refuses to service our system

    this is a fact folks, you cannot deny this....tweeking economic policy as a way of establishing sustainability is futile, backwards thinking

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