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Abortion is a woman's right

PieterOpie posted on Jan 25, 2009 | views: 662 | Tags: abortion, hysterical, murder, emotive, tell-US, go ahead
In response to a post by ALIENated, likeneing abortion to murder I wish to make a simple statement that many simply do not agree with that description. 
I see it as the woman's right to decide whether she wants her body to produce an offspring - or not.  I won't go into when a blob of tissue becomes an independant human being.  I find all that fraught with hysteriacal emotive argument which can come later or as a separate topic.  To say a woman rejects part of her own tissue to avoid having an unwanted baby is murdering someone is in my opinion highly irrational and frankly a little crazy.

What business is it of theirs anyway?  None. That is why they call it murder.  It suggests they have a responsibility to protect what is in reality none of their business.  Who's body is it anyway?  Certainly not theirs. 

Then there is all the usual moralisation about promiscuity and an obsession with sex as if that is something new.  Oh please.....

There are all kinds of prevention methods and sometimes something goes wrong.  That leaves it up to the woman to decide whether her sex life should result in pregnacy or not.  If not - then it is her choice.  It is a tiny tiny balls of cells - NOT a person. Potential humans are discarded naturally all the time.  Big deal.  That is why we come with so many spares... eh, well women do.  Not me personally.  I have the other stuff.  I have no qualms about wasting some of that.  Should I feel remorse for all those millions of little buggers?  OMG.....

Sorry.  Murder is NOT what abortion is.  Murder is looking after babies you don't want.


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Comments

  • seer said on Jan 25, 2009....
    I blame the pope. And people that say 'but the fetus has fingers so its human!'.
     
    Bullshit.
     
    I agree totally with everything you said.
     
    And I'd also like to talk a little bit about the social impact of having kids you don't want - well I dont need to explain how hellish it must be raising an unwanted child, that child would be better off dead anyway, and besides, have these Bible Thumping morons actually considered the amount of Welfare that would have to be provided?
     
    Look at writercarldobbs, he's a sort of Neo-Nazi Bible Belt Conservative Type, and we've had some great arguements, if you want to join in!
     
    Ironic, how much better the world would be if people that are against abortion were aborted instead of being born....
  • stopmediabias said on Jan 25, 2009....
    The problem with "Its my body and I can do whatever I want" argument is it leaves out three important variables.  #1-The unborn child and #2-The father and #3-The health of the woman.
     
    #1-To state this is just tissue, or not life, etc...is denial.  You and I can site hundreds of scientists and doctors who clearly state once th egg is fertilized by the sperm and starts to grow it comes a sperate human being with distinct DNA.  There is an argument to be made in the question: Does something that has never seen anything, heard anything, tasted anything, or felt anything is that the same as taking a human life that has?  Its a moral tightrope.  But the fact remains if you terminate a pregnancy you are terminated a human life about 95% of the time.
     
    #2-Why is it a man who gets a woman pregnant has no say in abortion or no abortion but if she decides to have the baby she can hound him till the end of time for financial support?
     
    #3-Abortion is bad for woman.  Look at suicide rates, rates of depression, physical side effects, the ABC link etc etc. We can come up with a better solution for unwanted pregnancies.
     
    Seer-You are damaged goods and if you don't get past that it will only get worse.  People like WCD actually believe people who have abortions are killing babies.  While abortion is a lot more complicated than that can you blame him?  Anyone can find horror stories of botched abortions with disasterous endings.  For all his indoctination you are indoctrinated with horror stories from the left of woman who have been injured in back ally abortions or disgraced by religious crazies. 
     
    You are right in your outrage because religious people have done a lot of harm (while intentions maybe noble) they have hurt this country.
     
    We can solve all of the problems without abortion on both sides. 
  • seer said on Jan 25, 2009....

    idealism!

     

    Its the lesser of two evils.    

    How do you mean 'damaged goods?'

  • SeanRenaud said on Jan 25, 2009....

    1.  It does have its own DNA nobody is denying that.  It is incapable of life outside the mother.  It's not alive until it can accomplish that.  Sans machines (and on the far side when you lose the ability support life sans machines it is also just and good to have the option open to kill this person.  If you want to call it killing fine I don't much mind.  It's not murder though not all killings are murder.

    2.  Hey I'm the first person to say that a man should have at least the same three month period (longer if he can make an honest case that he didn't know) to say that he's not interested in having a child and financially abort the child and wife.  It's bullshit that women get to hold a gun to our heads.

    3.  You want to argue suicide rates?  I honestly don't care if someone kills themselves so long as they do it, neatly for a lack of better terms.  You hang yourself or OD fine.  You jump off a bridge at rush hour?  Not ok.  But that aside let's talk the crime rates of adults with children they can't support.  Let's talk the crime rate of children brought up in the system.  Lets talk about the the number of beaten children.  Lets talk about all the horrible things that happen to people who don't want children (and currently have a way out and choose not to take it) and compound it by the number of annual abortions and imagine how frustarted the people who had no choice are gonna be.

     

  • seer said on Jan 25, 2009....

    Ahh this is bliss. Its the sinking into a warm bath feeling.

     

    Rational, ethic, discussion.

  • PAPARAZZI said on Jan 25, 2009....
    Did you vote for Obama? Is every sperm sacred? Do you have children? Where did you ge this blog name?
  • stopmediabias said on Jan 25, 2009....

    Seer-You are damaged goods because you come to the debate with some kind of baggage.  No one knows what it is and it affects your judgement.  And what is it will all this Nazi crap?  Do you have any idea what that does to your credibility?

    Sean-#1-To say it cannot survive outside the mother is a stretch, history has shown otherwise.  These people above try to water down abortion by diminishing the significance of an unborn fetus.  The joining of a sperm and an egg creates a distinct unique human being.  No it is not murder but it is homicide.  Precedents in the past like the Lacy Peterson law make the unborn a human being. 

    #2-I agree

    #3-I can't imagine you of all people taking this stance.  People should abort babies because their is a higher chance they will become criminals later?  Are you really serious here?  Abused children would have been better off not being born at all?  People that commit suicide stop paying taxes, if you are religious there are other implications.  So we should try to reduce suicide as much as possible.

    Aren't their solutions to all these problems without subjecting our woman to a bad medical procedure? 

  • Lucytorial said on Jan 25, 2009....
    Gotta love this issue and what it brings out in people.
     
    Where does the self moralising stop huh? murder? WTF! You're telling me I shouldn't have an abortion while you fucking terrorise and murder innocent people all over the world? ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS? or seriously mental? tee he he hee Stop media you are one sick dude.
     
    The derrangement of especially men who argue against abortion is laughable to say the least, and to assume that male partners all over the world DON'T have a say in that is a type of ignorance that even education won't change.
     
    For many reasons abortion happens, but why is it okay to start a war in another country and kill people because of self moralising once again??? its hideously religion that does this, that incites this self righteousness to stop abortion yet continue to kill in the name of god.
     
    Wake up morons.
  • husbandhater said on Jan 25, 2009....

    Yeah Lucy tell em. Here it is in a nutshell folks. When we all are called to the carpet for the things we've done I don't think the lord is going to be giving anyone brownie points for stopping an abortion or their views on it. We will all be accountable for our own deeds.

    I would perfer to see someone kill a child inutero rather than bring them here to be abused physically,mentally,sexually or any of the sort including to be killed. I'm pretty sure that all of the parents of the dead girls Ted Bundy offed wished his mother had of done it instead of bringing him up in the warped charade that brought him to the point that he thought it was o.k. to murder young women.

    I'm pretty sure I wish that the mother of my abuser had of done the deed. Then I and the other younglady he abused wouldn't have suffered at his hands. I was lucky that he didn't get to harm me physically the way he did her. She ended up in the hospital with damage to her insides. I remember the time he tried I was to small and I was screaming. I think that is what stopped him.

    I know this sounds horrible to some but I lived through it so it's even more horrible to remember. God help me for thinking this way but I'm sure I'm not the 1st or the last.

  • Lucytorial said on Jan 25, 2009....
    HH ~ This is what I'm talking about, even though without religion in to my mix we are all accountable, to have a child be born with unwilling parents, who are damaging themselves or will is utter bullshit and should never happen, to then have those children grow to adults and be abused or the abuser is even more amazing.......
  • PieterOpie said on Jan 25, 2009....
    What the hell does abortion have to do with religion?  God needs no one to tell us how he thinks.  How do these religious fanatic - these obsessed zealots - these fascists know what god wants?  How fucking arrogant is that?

    The USA is a free nation and so is Australia where I live and I have the right to tell god to butt out and tell his pions to fuck off and get their fascist paws off the wombs of free women.  They do not own the insides of woman.  I am telling you - there is NO GOD AND THEREFORE IT IS NOT ANY OF THE GOD PEOPLE'S FUCKING BUSINESS.

    If you disagree with that and insist upon imposing your views then you are a fascist nazi oppressor and fly in the face of everything your nation stands for.  FREEDOM.

    FUCK OFF with your emotional rationalisations.  "abortion is bad for women and they get sad and blow their brains out"   With neighbour like you I am not surprised!!!!!

    That is bullshit.  If abortions were conducted the way they should be, with the welfare of the woman as its mission then there would be pre-abortion counselling, safe medical treatment appropriate to the case and follow-up care with decent psychological care.  The stress women endure in your country is largely due to the oppression they suffer because of your torment and the unnecessary guilt inflicted on these women. 

    I read that your right wing idiot policy of abstinence has produced MORE unwanted babies than before the policy came along.  At $400 MIILION PER YEAR that was a spectacular failure to say the least.  Add that to the primitive religious based anti-abortion policiy and we get one gigantic social disaster with thousand upon thousands of young lives ruined.  Thanks on their behalf - NOT!!!

    And that is just the teenagers in the USA.  Bush was in IDIOT!!!!  He was ONLY in power because he conned the moronic right wing christian fascists in America.  Those people are a menace!!!  It reminds me of Nazi Germany how they make "rational' arguments for whatever they want.  What they want is control and power.  They hate freedom and they hate anyone who is not like them.  It is totally unAmerican and evil.  Their time has come to an end.

    I reiterate,,,,,  abortion is a woman's choice.  What anybody thinks of it IS NOT RELEVANT.  If you say it is murder - fine... that is you ignorent opinion.  Keep it to yourself or pack your bags and go set up a totalitarian state somewhere else.  You are traitors and evil people.  Get the hell out.

    Is it clear yet?  Do you not understand?  are you completely brainless?

    America is about to return to true American values as stated in the consitution.  NOBODY has a right to flout the rules of that constitution. Bush did.  He belongs in  prison along with all of his gangsters -those war criminal law-breakers should be arrested and locked up.  But that is another thread's worth.  They are no longer able to oppress patriotic Americans and befoul democracy.

    The abortion issue is now able to break free from their phony religious fascist politics.  Again women are free and more than wombs owned by the extremist right. Be gone you republican neo-nazis.  Go find your jollies in the toilets of the nations airports and the pants of your closet gay evangelists. You have no right to steal the rights of others. MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS!!!!!!!!!!
  • TinSoldier said on Jan 25, 2009....
    Abortion is wrong. It may not live up to the apellation of murder, but after the first trimester it is wrong.

    A child born five minutes cannot survive on its own any more than can a fetus five weeks before normal gestation. And yet killing one is murder and killing the other isn't (necessarily).

    I don't pray, and I'm not religious, but while abortion isn't the most important issue for me it is still an important one, and one which I use to help differentiate political candidates.

    In the end, living things want to live. That is the way of living things.
  • phoeby said on Jan 25, 2009....
    to me abortions are neither here nor there... there's 3 reasons for this.

    firstly, imo... there is no such thing as death (in truth) as the enduring part of us (spirit) is never born and never dies. it just is. it manifests here in 3D in a physical form for a period of time and then the form 'dies' and it merges back with spirit and then does the whole thing again at some point.

    secondly, the soul and spirit only starts to inhabit the body in full when it pops out of the woman. the foetus is not a human being, abortion is not murder because there is nothing to murder.

    thirdly, (this is highly contentious i know...)... but just say people buy into the ole foetus = baby and this is murder argument..., it's being noted and known and proven in many metaphysical/spiritual circles time and time again...that every physical incarnation of spirit (that is, every person) chooses it's own birth and death and the time of death, method of death etc and will only do so because it's mission here, it's purpose here is done. so if you choose to believe that a foetus is a human which i personally do not subscribe to, then it is still not murder bec the higher self of this foetus has chosen everything that is going on. and for some reason or other is simply not ready to go through with the life and be born.

    there's nothing to get steamed up about, there's no murder because there is no human yet.. there is just human potential, it's just a seeming choice of the mother to bear this child at this point or not. 

    phoeby

  • TinSoldier said on Jan 25, 2009....
    Wow, Pieter. Tell us what you really think.

    Do you not see irony in your own post? In denying others their opinion and yet calling them fascists? 

    Just wow.

    I'm proud of my sister who was born three months premature, and who stayed in the hospital for three months and who cost my welfare family (and therefore my government and fellow taxpayers) over $1 Million, and who now has two children of her own, because hers is a worthy life.

    I'm proud of my son who was born six weeks premature.

    I'm glad that my own mother, who was 19 when I was born, did not know about whatever abortion options were available to her in 1970 (although I do wish that she whould have known more about contraception information. Not that I want to negate my own existence). I say that mostly because of my other sister who was stillborn, because my mother got pregnant too soon after my own birth. Even so, given better medical technology, I'm sure that my sister could have lived as well.
  • PieterOpie said on Jan 25, 2009....
    TinSoldier:  I am not talking about third trimester abortions.  That is pushing the boundaries of what is reasonable in most people's views.  However if for some reason medical problems arise in that late stage of pregnacy and the life of the mother is threatened then surgery is required to save her life. If that includes an abortion in the technical sense then I believe there is little choice.  Ultimately the mother is the more important person in that unfortunate situation.  To call that murder is ridiculous since I would hope the procedure would attempt to also save the fetus and hope for the best.  That must be a case by case thing.  I'm not really debating such fine details.

    Personally if the fetus has a chance outside the womb then science can give it life.  However the woman would have to agree to allow the to "harvest" her fetus.  It belongs to her - not the state.  Once out of utero it's a different story.

    Again, I would hope any abortion would be performed as soon as possible.  Who in their right mind waits until six months have passed to make up their mind?  That is asking for trouble in all kinds of ways.
  • PieterOpie said on Jan 25, 2009....
    Oh... as for me denying the opinions of others.  Not true. You are entitled to your views no matter how bone-headed they may be.  I don't give a toss.  I believe I did mention that in my tirade. However if you impose your will on me and prevent me from exercising MY rights, then yes you are a fascist pig and an oppressor.

    You can rave on about murder and Jesus all you like. That is all part of Freedom as protected by the constitution but if you then force me to live by your rules you are walking all over my freedom like a goose-stepping storm trooper and I won't shutup and let you.  I will yell and scream and call you out for what you are.  Nor do I expect you to have an abortion against your superstitious beliefs.  That is your business.  However I would not get involved in your affairs like the right wing do in mine.  I have more sense.


  • PieterOpie said on Jan 25, 2009....
    >>>This part is simply to annoy some people and is not part of my argument.<<<

    I know a biologist who explained to me that in biological terms a fetus within the womb behaves more like a parasite that has to trick the mother's body in being able to grow and develop in there.  If it did not do this with whatever methods I cannot recall (with chemicals and hormones I expect),  then the mother's immune system would have devoured the zygote soon after conception.  It is essentially a foreign object with DNA different to that of the mother.   Only an exact clone would not be seen in this way.

    A fetus is in fact a successful intuder - a total parasite that literally feeds off the host mother and indeed can be such an imposition that in some extreme cases actually cause the death of that host.  It is the parasite that decides when it wants to be ejected from the host and become an independant organism. 

    So if there s any doubt about removing the little blood-sucker let this information make it easier to wrench the growth out of there. 

    In my mad moments I think it is not a bad idea to give mothers the option for a period of time to be allowed to commit infantacide if the kid is ugly or not well behaved.  Let's say up to the age of .....oh... about 18 years old.  hehehe
  • bloc said on Jan 25, 2009....
    tinsoldier said,
    "Abortion is wrong. It may not live up to the apellation of murder, but after the first trimester it is wrong."

    I agree sort of ;) I'm not sure I'd set the time at the first trimester, but the general view is the same as mine. The problem is that the right wingers conflate abortion at 8 months with abortion at 8 minutes (when the fertilized egg is the size of the period at the end of this sentence). These two are not the same thing. Four cells is not a human being, but a 7 month fetus is.

    I guess this makes me both pro choice and pro life.
  • PieterOpie said on Jan 26, 2009....
    Like you say, there is a difference between some cells and a well-developed fetus.  This is about whether abortion should be permitted. Not when.  That is a separate debate and one that is perhaps more complicated and steeped in emotion than the first question.

    I am inclined to think that a well-developed fetus is an individual albeit in the uterus and in the light of modern medical capability it seems now possible for such a body to live assisted outside the womb.  Once a fetus reaches an agreed stage of deveopment then I am in favour of forbidding an abortion unless the mother's health is at risk.  In such a situation the fetus could possibly be removed for its own sake by surgical means to remove the risk to the mother thus saving the mother and hopefully the child as well. 

    Naturally all that might seem quite optomistic and it is impossible to foresee what kinds of medical situations might arise. 

    However it strikes me that anyone inclined to want an abortion would have decided to have it well before it ever reached that far into a pregnacy.   If anyone is silly enough to wait that long then they must face the prospect of fofeiting the right to demand one in favour of the potential rights of the unborn.

    At this point in this argument I remain focused on whether it is a woman's right to have an abortion in the first place and clearly my view is that she has that right.

    We can squabble over the time when the fetus becomes vialble and invested with its own rights and that will be a fun session indeed.  I have outlined some views above but without expert advice I cannot commit to any such time.

    I want to know at what point a fetus becomes sentient and when its nervous system is devoloped enough to experience pain and trauma.  I am not speaking of tissue trauma but as an organism.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    You know.... I don't know who in their right mind would want to bring a child into a world like this anyway.  We have not left the planet in a very nice state for them to inherit; and frankly some people have little idea about how to raise a child.  Sometimes I have my own fascist ideas and am tempted to think people ought to have a license before being allowed to breed and that they are issued only after an education in child rearing is undertaken.  It is a silly notion and just a joke but sometimes I do wonder........
  • seer said on Jan 26, 2009....

    That's a real grey area!

    I honestly do not know where to draw the line.

  • diabolicdame said on Jan 26, 2009....
    I agree with a woman's right to abortion. If she cannot care for a baby for whatever the reasons may be.. there's no point in punishing an innocent life to a hard and unwanted life. As far as the matter of when the embryonic cells become a baby... I'm a biotechnologist and I find explaining this to stubborn unscientifically inclined people extremely difficult.. its the same thing with people opposed to stem cell research.. a bunch of cells is not the same thing as a baby.
    I think until its just a zygote.. just cells.. abortion should not even made an issue! After that it gets into a grey area because the cells starting taking shape of a baby and that is ethically wrong ofcourse but rarely do poeple wait that long!! I'd say the main thing wrong was that the woman waited too long. So maybe people need to make up their minds and abort soon after conception if they want to. But in general.. I think abortion is a woman's right and a woman's business.
  • husbandhater said on Jan 26, 2009....

    To Pie's theory. I have something called the Rh factor. It requires me to take a Rogaine shot twice during each of my pregnancies weither successful or not. If I do not take this shot  and get pregnant, the fetus has a different blood type other than mines my body will  treat the unborn fetus like a disease and attack it. YES it will kill it. The rogaine only tricks my body into thinking the fetus belongs there and is the same blood type.  Effectively keeping my own body from killing the unborn child.This is the simplest way for me to explain this.

    So there could be something to that scientific theory there.

  • husbandhater said on Jan 26, 2009....

    To Pie's theory. I have something called the Rh factor. It requires me to take a Rogaine shot twice during each of my pregnancies weither successful or not. If I do not take this shot  and get pregnant, the fetus has a different blood type other than mines my body will  treat the unborn fetus like a disease and attack it. YES it will kill it. The rogaine only tricks my body into thinking the fetus belongs there and is the same blood type.  Effectively keeping my own body from killing the unborn child.This is the simplest way for me to explain this.

    So there could be something to that scientific theory there.

  • diabolicdame said on Jan 26, 2009....
    husbandhater, that would usually happen if you have a Rh positive blood type and your husband has a Rh negetive one.. or vice versa.. that usually causes complications like that.. that is the Rh incompatibility between mother and baby's blood type's that causes that reaction.
  • stopmediabias said on Jan 26, 2009....

    Lucy-What is wrong with you?

    Why does every woman start foaming at the mouth when someone suggests that abortion is not the best solution to the problems we have?  Sheesh.

    It is my belief that abortion increases the chances of a woman getting breast cancer, increases rates of suicide, depression, and overall is not the best solution, thats it.  Is it so terrible that I being a husband and father of a teenage daughter would want to steer our ladies away from such a practice?

    You people are the ones who are sick. 

    "Doctor I'm pregnant and it's not a good time right now."

    "Oh, well here pay me five grand spread your legs and I'll scrape around in there with a scapel until a tiny unborn fetus comes rolling out.  And don't worry there are only small percentages of woman who bleed to death, deliver body parts, and have depression for the rest of their lives but thats only a small percentage."

    You guys need to read a few more books.

     

  • PieterOpie said on Jan 26, 2009....
    Husbandhater:  (some name you got there... hehe)  That "theory" is not mine. It is a biological fact.  It was told to me by a biologist years ago.  I find the concept quite fascinating.

    DiabolicDame:  The question of murder is plainly ridiculous in the early period of pregnancy and those who do not have a medical or scientific background are not in a good position to define when the zygote becomes a matter of controversial debate.  They could at least allow themselves some educating.  Ignorance is not helpful in any field including this one.  We cannot all be experts but we need not all be completely vague about it either.  Ignorance is too often self-perpetuating.  Ignorence loves the company of more ignorance. 

    StopMediaBias:  You're doing exactly what I noted and that is drag out the emotional and irrational into the debate.  That really is not relevant.  It is that which has prevented common sense from ruling over the religious right wing who decided what was morally acceptable.  Obvious many here and I do not agree that your views should be the reason to ban abortion and I see it as interfering in matter that are not your business,  If you want to  know how I feel about that you need only go back half a page where I can yell at you a second time. 

    Your words I quote here: -

    -["Doctor I'm pregnant and it's not a good time right now."

    "Oh, well here pay me five grand spread your legs and I'll scrape around in there with a scapel until a tiny unborn fetus comes rolling out......" ]-

    ...are pure theatrics.  You trivialise the womans decision to the extreme which tells me that you believe women are not able to make that decision but you are.   You further belittle the procedure as if we are saying abortions should be done by idiots.  I don't think I said anything but the complete oposite.  I also advocated councelling before and after.  Did you miss that bit...  You have missed much in life or you would be more broadminded and less hysterical.
  • RollingC said on Jan 26, 2009....
    Abortion is a woman's right to commit murder.   That's the bottom line as the fetus is a human being not an animal or a cyst to be removed or harvested.   Everyone can argue about it until the cows come home or your face turns blue and it's still not going to change the fact that a human fetus is a human being and not an animal or a plant.
    Rc
  • seer said on Jan 26, 2009....
    This is why I hate society......
  • curmudgeon said on Jan 26, 2009....
    Even if we leave God out of this for the moment, rational people should consider the following:

    1) Fetal tissue is both LIVING and HUMAN. These two realities cannot be disputed. Abortion terminates life, period. If the definition of "personhood" is the ability to survive on its own as Sean states, babies cannot do this. If someone were to suffocate a newborn not five minutes out of the womb, we'd call it murder. I fail to see the difference here.

    2) Abortion concerns everyone because the mother does not abort alone. She has lots and lots of help. Doctors are trained in the procedure and perform them, medical equipment companies put the tools in their hands, construction companies build the clinics, the government certifies everything involved in the process and even subsidizes the entire affair. Taxpayers have a RIGHT to have a say in how their money is spent and what is done in the name of the People. This idea that abortion is entirely up to the woman is little more than myth. We're all involved whether we want to be or not. Shouldn't we come to some collective agreement through legislation, rather than have 9 Supreme Court Justices dictate what the law of the land ought to be?

    3) The assumption that all unwanted children will go mistreated doesn't really make a lot of sense. We don't know how these kids will grow up. Better to die than to grow up miserable? Really? How about better to die rather than be happy? If this is truly the case, the vast majority of humanity ought to shoot itself in its collective head right now.

    With a million or so terminated pregnancies a year, we can count on the following:

    Future generations of taxpayers, workers, consumers, leaders, innovators, advocates AND THEIR DESCENDANTS are cut off.

    Since Roe v Wade in 1972, perhaps some 30 million American citizens or more never came into being. We will soon be faced with a population consisting of more retired elderly and fewer working folks to support them. Those 30 million American citizens - many of whom would be be approaching their prime earning years right now - might have helped us greatly if not for their being cut out for the lifestyle convenience of their mothers.

    Society has a responsibility to consider all the social and economic dimensions of abortion, NOT just a woman's individual right to choose. This isn't just about religion.

    Why is it, though, that supposedly "rational" people can't ever seem to see beyond their own selfish desires, while the religious are willing to stick their necks out to save children they don't even know?
  • SeanRenaud said on Jan 26, 2009....

    1.  I said survive sans machines.  Not survive alone.  I even qualified it with stating that on the far end, if you're on life support we should be given the option of not keeping you alive, especially if there is little chance of your recovery. 

    2. C'mon are you fucking serious here?  First there isn't a lot of specialized equipment that goes into abortions, I mean large equipment that couldn't be installed in a garage if you were so inclined.  So pretty much this entire point is rubbish.  I bet if you took it to the American tax payer most would support hospitals offering abortions than various cosmetic securities.

    3. A mother's first instinct is to kep her child.  So much so that it's often overides rational.  Of course not all unwanted or unfortunate children will grow up to be abused.  Some will inevitably grow into Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Hawking.  And ten thousand will grow into the criminals flooding our jails.

    4. That has more to do with the baby boom than anything else and you know it. 

  • Knowledge1 said on Jan 26, 2009....

    Abortion: Is the removal or expulsion of an embryo or fetus from the uterus, resulting in or caused by death. The intentional termination of pregnancy by killing and expelling an embryo or a fetus. Also, any of various procedures that result in such termination and removal. Also called induced abortion

    Abortionist - a person who terminates pregnancies

    My thing is this, just because the government or anybody else gives a women the right to have abortions, does not make it right. Even though the embryo is incapable of independent life it is still alive. It is depending on the mother to care for it until the time will come where it can be breathe on its own. It is the nature of the baby to want to progress(grow)in life as any other life force. Those of you who are pro-choice don't consider these things. The woman who has posession of the embryo, should do all the right things to ensure the embryo's health outside of the womb, but since she has posession of the baby, does this justify her doing what she wants to do.

    This may sound funny to some of you, but this make me think about Mike Vick.  Vick owned every one of those dogs he killed or fought. They were his dogs. They were in his posession. Why should he not have the authority to what he wanted with those dogs if they were his. He was not allowed to do what he wanted because it was not right to do dogs that way. Look at what he has went through over his dogs. Why is abortion a women's right ? Is it because she is the one with posession of  the baby and she can do what she wants to ? This is a backwards world we live in. Which is the greater crime Mike Vick killing dogs or mothers killing their unborn babies ?

     

     

     

     

  • Knowledge1 said on Jan 26, 2009....

    Abortion: Is the removal or expulsion of an embryo or fetus from the uterus, resulting in or caused by death. The intentional termination of pregnancy by killing and expelling an embryo or a fetus. Also, any of various procedures that result in such termination and removal. Also called induced abortion

    Abortionist - a person who terminates pregnancies

    My thing is this, just because the government or anybody else gives a women the right to have abortions, does not make it right. Even though the embryo is incapable of independent life it is still alive. It is depending on the mother to care for it until the time will come where it can survive on its own. It is the nature of the baby to want to progress(grow)in life as any other life force. Those of you who are pro-choice don't consider these things. The woman who has posession of the embryo, should do all the right things to ensure the embryo's health outside of the womb, but since she has posession of the baby, does this justify her doing what she wants to do.

    This may sound funny to some of you, but this make me think about Mike Vick.  Vick owned every one of those dogs he killed or fought. They were his dogs. They were in his posession. Why should he not have the authority to what he wanted with those dogs if they were his. He was not allowed to do what he wanted because it was not right to do dogs that way. Look at what he has went through over his dogs. Why is abortion a women's right ? Is it because she is the one with posession of  the baby and she can do what she wants to ? This is a backwards world we live in. Which is the greater crime Mike Vick killing dogs or mothers killing their unborn babies ?

     

     

     

     

  • SeanRenaud said on Jan 26, 2009....

    The baby doesn't WANT anything.  It's not conscious, hell they are barely conscious the first six or so months OUT of the womb. 

    Also Mike Vick wasn't allowed to do that because we have laws that are basically stupid.  They were his possessions and honestly I don't feel we SHOULD have the right to tell him what to do with them.  What he did was reprehensible but he wasn't hurting human beings (other than the gambling but I feel that should be legal as well). 

    And for all of you who want to constantly bring the Peterson and other cases of double murder for killing a pregnant lady those are emotional reactioins.  If we were using that as some kind of precedent we'd be able to put in jail (or possibly to death) any mother who was proven to have taken drugs or drank during her pregnancy and especially if the end result was a miscarriage.  We don't even inspect miscarriages, we accept that shit happens.  How bout if a pregnant woman runs away from her husband for whatever reason?  Does she get life in prison for kidnapping?  That's what she's done if the baby inside her is "alive" and "real".  Thing is most of you are rolling yoru eyes at the absurdity of my comments. 

    That's because they are absurd.  The thing is they stop being absurd if they fit your argument.  Something is true or it isn't.

  • curmudgeon said on Jan 26, 2009....
    1. Surviving without machines is still an arbitrary definition of personhood. Stephen Hawking and a whole host of similarly abled people cannot survive without machines. Are they not "persons?" This is an utterly arbitrary definition.

    2. I am completely serious here. More people are involved in the act of abortion than simply the women in question. Society enables the act and in large part subsidizes it. Our money ought to buy us into the decision making process. And I won't assume what "most people" would or would not support. That's completely beside the point. If all of society is involved, then all of soceity deserves some input.

    3. Assuming outcomes of people's personal decisions doesn't justify taking their lives before they even have a chance to make those decisions.

    4. You're actually making my point for me! It takes more than one worker to support every retired person. Baby boomers and succeeding generations should have been procreating EVEN MORE, not killing their offspring,  to support the enlarged number of retirees.

    You can buy these arguments or not. Just trying to convey the idea that one need not involve religion to make a pro-life case.
  • PAPARAZZI said on Jan 26, 2009....
    Have you had an abortion?
  • stopmediabias said on Jan 26, 2009....

    PO-How is it emotional or irrational to point out that abortion is just plain bad for our woman?  Even hardcore pro-choicers agree with this. 

    The absurdity of this issue has reached ridiculous proportions and every "pro-choicer" knows it.  A 17 year old girl can go get an abortion without telling her parents (in some states) but if she tries to buys cigarettes, OH MY GOD!!!!  Planned parenthood is telling our kids abortions are no more dangerous of a procedure than getting your tonsils out, ah no big deal.  But oh shit!  A cartoon Camel that smokes cigarettes.  The shame!  We gotta get rid of Joe he is harming our kids!

    Sean-So by your rationale, more abortions equals less crime or vice versa, less abortions equals more crime?

  • SeanRenaud said on Jan 26, 2009....

    1.  And if Hawking choose he was tired of living that would be his choice.  He's capable of making it.  A child is incapable of making such a choice (or even voicing an opinion) and thus the parents makke the decision.

    2.  I know you're serious but it's a silly point.  How many people are involved in the prison system (that is a serious drain on our economy?)  If we told you that you'd pay 1000 dollars less in taxes every year PLUS the country would gain additional tax revenue PLUS we'd create new jobs by legalizing weed.  We get a say, we elect presidents, senators, representatives, mayors and so forth.  We have our say.

    3.  Actually my only point on the third is that you can't make any argument that these mostly unwanted childen would go on to be productive and you can't.  You can point out Hawking but for every hawking how many people with serious disabilities do nothing but absorb tax dollars?   We can afford to table the burden and so we do but that's not to say we should intentionally compound it.

    4.  It does take more workers to support retirees.  Course to be honest that sounds like a Democrat/Liberal way of thinking.  Otherwise if you can't support yourself (and nobody likes you enough support you) it's time for you to shuffle off.

    5.  There is at the very least a strong correlation between more abortions=less crime.  The only reason it can't be called a fact is because there are too many other factors that may have effected things.

    6.  Your cigarette point is rather absurd.  You're basically saying because one law is stupid that a valid point becomes invalid.  I might as well say.

    A twenty year old who went to World War 2 and got the Medal of Honor isn't a man!  He's a boy!  Our Government is trying to tell you that the battle fields of Iraq are more dangerous than than a local bar!  We gotta get rid of Captian Morgan he's harming our kids!!!!!!!  See how silly that sounds and it's true.  An 18 year old can join the military withour parental consent in all 50 states but he can't buy a drink in any of them!

  • seanGAYrenaud said on Jan 26, 2009....

    Listen up!  Abortions can be made fun!(:0}

    Get dressed up , get drunk, and perform your own abortion at home with friends!

    Listen to some good music, watch a great movie (TO SIR WITH LOVE) and spread!

    You will get to *love the abortion *experience even if you are gay like me.

  • seer said on Jan 26, 2009....

    I think if abortions were made illegal they would still be performed illegally.

    They used to be until they were made legal, and in places where its illegal people travel to where it is legal to get it done, or go to a back street abortionist.

    So pro-lifers, do you honestly think its the lesser of two evils?

  • stopmediabias said on Jan 27, 2009....

    Sean-My cigarette point was pointing out how absurd our society has become.  There is an argument to be made for promoting cigarettes and alcohol as bad for kids.  Right now in our society you will see hundreds of PSA's and all this other anti-smoking crap but will you see one single honest anti-abortion PSA?  When I say honest I mean not the hardcore right its-murder side or the hardcore left its-your body and its just a blob of tissue, I mean just a mention that abortion is not the only solution.

    I'll bet by the time a girl is 5 years old she knows cigarettes are bad for your health.  Is the same emphasis put on abortion?

    SeanG-impersonator-You are the type of classless moron that attaches a stain to honest debate.

    Seer-If a woman goes into a back ally to have her pregnancy terminated she probably has a greater problems than unwanted pregnancy.

  • andora said on Jan 27, 2009....
    PieterOpie said:

    "And that is just the teenagers in the USA.  Bush was in IDIOT!!!!  He was ONLY in power because he conned the moronic right wing christian fascists in America.  Those people are a menace!!!  It reminds me of Nazi Germany how they make "rational' arguments for whatever they want.  What they want is control and power.  They hate freedom and they hate anyone who is not like them.  It is totally unAmerican and evil.  Their time has come to an end."

    this was the best sentence Pieter...I have been well aware of the so-called 'moral majority' for most of my life bc I was raised by these bigots. thank goodness I am a rebel - got away from them like they were a disease! and they are! they talk about morality but have none! I refuse their point of view as rational or moral.

    I have been successful in helping women abort pregnancy in first trimester through electromagnetically aligned prayer. so, for all of you who insist that a zygot is not a human being, you are misinformed. I have been present for 3 simultaneous abortions through prayer and I have known more than 6 other couples that have aborted an unwanted human being through aligned prayer. now I know this will only confuse you women who prayed feverishly to abort an unwanted baby, yet had to have a mechanical abortion. the key here is electromagnetically aligned - this simply means that if not all of you agree's with your decision then you do not have enough of a personal majority in agreement with your decision, then you will falter. having mixed emotions and mixed ideas about anything is a sure-fire path to limbo, or even worse, failure.

    interestingly enough the people who wanted to silence this solution I refer to are the good christians who are so very against abortion to begin with. these people have a form of narccissism of religion that convinces they know anything at all...they even reject science, as if they know anything except ancient superstitions.

  • andora said on Jan 27, 2009....
    abortion is murder

    bringing an innocent human into hell is a moral decision for any woman

    this planet has more hell than heaven...for those women who are broke, powerless, uneducated and alone - please do not force them to continue to populate ghetto's that are sanctioned by the ruling class. if religionists want to be moral, then let them get started eliminating the ghetto. they are simply biggots and control freaks that don't give a damn about the living.many of them are simply terrorized that the white race will become a minority in this land...this is what really makes them crazy. bc the majority of abortions are committed by affluent and educated whites. they hate the possiblity of living in a non-white country!
  • stopmediabias said on Jan 27, 2009....
    Classic example of far-left brainless pinheads who just repeat the same nonsense over and over.  I swear I could make a list of ten things and it would encompass every talking point every Liberal has ever followed.
  • Lucytorial said on Jan 27, 2009....
    @ Stopmedia ~ So your teenage daughter is raped by her boyfriend, you are going to MAKE her go ahead with her pregnancy? you are going to place her in a situation where she is likely to take her own life, the life of her rape child too.  THAT is sick, not the choice.
     
     
  • copsunite said on Jan 27, 2009....
    Bush was right! Abortions are sin. Kill a fetus and you kill a baby. Stem cells research is perverted too. Keep your legs crossed not spread eagle. Ban all abortions now!
  • stopmediabias said on Jan 28, 2009....

    Lucy-Look at it this way:  I believe that abortion is terminating human life that hasn't had a chance to even breath.  I could come up with a long list of people who don't deserve to breath (Charles Manson) yet we spend a lot of money making sure they are healthy and safe.

    Rape shouldn't happen in our society.  If a conclusive rape is proven the person who committed it should be subjected to monstrous punishment that is equal to or as horrifying as rape itself.

    What do we do now?  We lesson the actions of the rapist and try to understand and rehabilitate then blame (and kill) an unborn child for the actions of the rapist.  We should not blame the innocent for the terrible actions of subhumans.  Adding abortion to rape is compounding the problem because an abortion is going to cause side effects just as long as the rape.

  • andora said on Jan 28, 2009....
    SMB

    you think you can relinquish this conversation to Liberalism v Conservativism? Only a man can have such a bullshit argument.

    I personally know a teen who was raped and chose to have the child bc of her convictions about abortion. I watched her attempt to raise this child...she hated this child bc everytime she looked at him she relived the rape. He, was absolutely monsterous, as children go. Her denied hatred for this child relegated him into a sort of demon. He was ugly, abusive, and stupid, I had a very hard time being in their presence. I believe this woman would have been much better off without this child, I also believe he would have been better off too. I know this sounds heartless, but I can't imagine attempting to pretend to love a child that was begotten of violence!

    Most people think a child is an innocent victim, and they are right, but that does not change the fact that the parents guilt and self-hatred gets downloaded right into these children. I was born of two unmarried people who decided to get married bc of my conception. I was born of their guilt, this was back in the '50's when unwanted pregnancy was the shame of the ages and abortion was unavailable. It has taken me 50 years of absolute introspection to identify what was torturing my soul. In my opinion it is the denied shame that is creating our reality...not our good intentions. even you SMB have denied shame, and you choose to keep it in a state of denial - anyone who has secrets has a good indication that they have denied shame that they are actively harboring - this is what makes us into biggots that point our fingers of shame at others!

    Being a child born of shame is not something many people who were born to a loving married couple with family ties, financial security and belonging could possible understand. Yet, these holier-than-thou types think they should beable to tell those who are less fortunate than themselves how to lead their lives. that is what Calvanism is the fortunate among us telling us that they are gods chosen bc they are successful. I guess I could use my success like a bludgeoning tool to make others feel stupid and innadequate, but I find that to be another form of denial that is deadly to my delicate soul.

    yess, we are delicate beings and living with the guilt of a mechanical abortion is also harmful. Treating the zygot like a conscious being and asking it to come back when the parents are able to care properly for it tends to leave the parents with the love of self that knows they are considerate, compassionate and realistic about their procreative abillity, feelling connected to the Personal Universe/God bc they are honest and sincere. I've been there, I've witnessed this type of human dignity. but, since you do not believe in human dignity SMB, since you cling to shame and blame as a solution, you have no reverence or sincerity about procreation....you are simply jaded about these very holy issues and hide behind a heartless movement that pretends to be compassionate!

    To just say this is a Liberal point of view refuses to look at the spiritual rammifications of concieving a child in guilt. I wish there was better education to help young women and men understand the repercussions of sex. just telling them to say no and keep their legs crossed is more pompous biggotry. your religion 'Christianity' has taken ancient propaganda that was designed to control sexuality rather than raise it up to the sacred where it belongs. you use religious ideas to make your point, yet your religion was designed by priests who simply wish to steal your free will and make you into a thoughtless pawn of their power plays. men acting like they know anything at all about the divine feminine around them. not even women understand how sacred their sexuality is, they defile it daily...works out for the men who wish to prey upon them!

    I find the aspect of having the US populated by the poor and uneducated to be frightening as well, I believe we should educate people better, no matter what their social status is...but, good christians look the other way when it comes to ghetto sociology bc they even have religious biggotry that makes them look down on the grossly poor as being responsible for their plight bc they didn't keep their legs closed. now there's a solution! NOT!

  • one_wired_kitty said on Jan 28, 2009....
    I agree with RollingC
  • stopmediabias said on Jan 28, 2009....

    Andora-what about adoption?  We have millions of people who want children but are physically unable while at the same time millions of dumpsters being filled with fresh abortions.

    Do you actually believe this bullshit?  Your making an argument for abortion while saying you had a tortured childhood.  Hello?  If abortion was legal you probably would have never been born.

    Again and again you people try to inject religion into this debate and it doesn't belong there.  You know your wrong and you know abortion does not belong in our society.  You try to paint someone as a religious fanatic or lesson the significance of an unborn child to settle this itching feeling in the back of your head that is telling you there is just something not right about abortion.

    Doesn't it bother you guys that:

    Abortion is the only "right" that EVERYONE agrees is bad for us.

    An unborn child intentionally killed by a murderer is considered a homocide but an unborn child intentionally killed by a doctor is not.

    Little teenage girls cannot legally get a tattoo, piercing, smoke, or drink but can go and get an abortion without their parents knowledge.

    Abortion has been linked to breast cancer and this is buried in the media.

    Abortion has killed woman directly and in higher suicides.

    Woman who have abortions are more likely to have depression and drug abuse issues.

    The majority of the medical community is sickened by abortion and will have nothing to do with it.

    Polls are grossly slanted on the actual consensus abortion.  This is done with the "pro-choice" nonsense.

    This is what we have now.  Instead of taking the zillions of steps to prevent a pregnancy or look into adoption this is what we subject our woman to?

     

  • satanx said on Jan 28, 2009....

    abortion is murder. Fuck and be fucked. Have human litters! The souls will all be mine! The last day will be Dec. 13, 2012.

    I hope you all will be there. 666 my friends...666

  • PieterOpie said on Jan 30, 2009....
    LOL....  Now that other turd StopMediaBias has blocked me.  At this rate I'll get blocked from this blog soon - AND THIS IS MY BLOG!!!  

    He blocked me from a new blog entitled "PieterOpie Is A Complete Nutcase".

    It's like he's known me all my life!  I cannot deny it.  I am a bit of a nut.  I enjoy the freedom it lends me in my life. I don't have to conform because if you are mad no one expects it.  Marvelous!  Yes...  I'm crazy. 

    If anyone doubts it then surely I must be to come here and argue for the right of a woman to do with her body what she wants. It is her body.... but not mine.  So why do I debate and face these bible-bashing god floggers?  Those idiots who believe that they are doing god's work by condemning women who choose not to reproduce at a time when it  is inconvenient.  It is no more than her expelling some of her tissue.  That is the end of it.  Gone. No more dividing cell blob. 

    There really is no need to get so emotional over things that are simply wrong.  It isn't murder.  There is no body, no victim.  One doesn't exist. She is getting rid of what in time could become a fetus which in turn becomes a baby.  But it is not.

    It is some tissue.  Yes the cells are alive.  So what? People have living tissue cut out of their bodies all the time. Some even have live tissue put inside them with organ transplants.  Now that is something I find revolting.  I would never want someone's organs replace my own.  I'd rather die.  I think it's wrong. Wrong for me.  I would never forbid it.  It is a medical miracle.  Just not for me.

    Abortion is the same sort of thing.  A woman decides to have it.  We do not.  I do not.  How I feel about it is simply not relevant. It might disgust me but so what?  It is none of my business.  I am her to defend the rights of the woman more than I am here to debate the morality of it. I just don't care whether it is right or not. 

    I spoke earlier of resigning the argument because you cannot argue with people who use god as their basis for all morality- god as they view him of course.  Well this is a civil matter - a medical matter - NOT a religious one,  Yet they call it murder and make all manner of unsubstantiated claims about how it is bad for women.... Not as issue - that is not the debate.  The woman's right is the debate.  So you see, it gets tiresome to go around and around over and over with the same bullshit.  it is all irrelevant.  In any case the law permits it and so I say we win.

    I have wasted enough time - I have said it all and outlasting me in the blog is not victory especially since they ignore that basic fact.  It is a woman's right. Not their right to deny it. So - I want to move on and be a nutcase somewhere else now.  crazy people can be very erratic.  I am no different. 

    And you know.... this subject could not have less to do with me.  I will never get any woman pregnant. I am not married.  I don't have daughters who may want abortions.  I don't know any women who want or need an abortion and generally won't do in the foreseeable future, so why stay here and FLOG A DEAD HORSE?

    GOOD BYE... GOOD LUCK... SAY HELLO TO JESUS... AND FUCK OFF.
  • andora said on Jan 30, 2009....
    alcohol causes breast cancer and depression as well SMB

    as a parent of three adults and a grandbaby, I will tell you that my daughters and I all agree that we would never bring a child into the world to give to others to raise. to me, that is a nightmare scenario. I have women in my life that chose that route and saw first hand how this decision shaped their lives - I would not reccommend this solution to other women.

    communicating with the unborn in the ways I have described is not murder, as is a mechanical abortion. the women that I know who have used these methods of prayer to prevent the birth of an unwanted child have not suffered the typical guilt that you are using as an argument against abortion...in fact, spiritual birthcontrol does not over-ride the will of anyone involved, essentially taking it out of the realm of murder.

    I would have had no problem if i had not, in fact, been born. I would never have chosen to be my parents shame! Neither of my parents have even come close to addressing their shame around my birth...I suspect they will die with it! But I won't bc I am choosing awareness and forgiveness. one can't forgive one self if they are in denial of their patterns of imbalance. these folks usually live a life of blaming others.

    being born into balance and love is very different than being concieved in guilt. many people have a very hard time discerning the difference between love and guilt as a result. human procreation needs to evolve into the realm of the sacred or suffer the pains of hell indefinitely. blame mongerers who are using guilt to alter the behavior of others are missing the point entirely. if people knew how responsive their own bodies could be, if they understood the nature of their own physical capacity, they would cease to relate in the heartless ways that continues to procreate guilt - instead of love!

    yes these are sweeping generalizations about a very complex and misunderstood issue, and I have seen the future. I have been present for the response of the feotus when the parents communicated sincerely and directly. just because you are not advanced enough to manifest your intentions SMB, in the way these enlightened couples were capable of manifesting theirs, does not mean that spiritual birthcontrol does not exist, does not mean that couples of the future will not be able to evolve in these advanced ways. as a result of my own very real experiences that gave conclusive evidence that even a zygot has consciousness and responsiveness, I look upon people like you as a dimming presence. A presence of being that has not been able to see the miracle of existence bc of dead-end ideas that keep new information from inspiring you to new heights of Free Will and Human Dignity. sucks to be the living dead!
  • andora said on Jan 30, 2009....

  • andora said on Jan 30, 2009....

  • starchini said on Jan 30, 2009....

    I would like to interject and put my two sense in...curious to see if i piss anyone off or not really...

    I take the miracle point of view...

    I believe each and every child is a miracle from......God.....yes I said it....a miracle direct from God...

    I personally do not support abortion, if the baby was concieved by rape, by accident or if it just wasnt planned and now is not a good time...I personally would not have an abortion...I do view any sort of abortion as murder....I think the only way i might even consider abortion is if it was a direct threat to my life.  Even then, if there was a chance the baby would be ok, i would risk my life to have it delivered safely...

    But thats just me and my own little belief.  I dont judge other women for having abortions.  Im sure they were well informed and all and still made their choice, therefore they had to have reasons of their own...

    To each their own. 

    However you might be surprised that I am PRO CHOICE...

    Its a very personal touchy thing and when it comes down to it i believe it is the womans right to choose...I choose to not abort...but others will choose to abort...Im glad that i still have my right to choose...

    Its not for me to judge what others do as right or wrong, we will all be judged eventually...

    Peace out HOMIES!!!!  : P  Play nice everyone...

    And nobody YELL AT ME!!!  Ill be pissed if anyone of you argue with me! 

    BACK OFF PEOPLE!!!

    NOPE,  nope...im done talking now...i dont want to discuss it further..my peace was made : ) 

     

    I love you guys!!!

  • satanx said on Feb 13, 2009....

    I am here to harvest souls. Bow to me. Homos having abortions is in the game as well.

     

    serve satanx!

  • RollingC said on Feb 14, 2009....
    God gave us a free will so that might be interpreted as pro-choice also but then He gave the commandment ' Thou shalt not kill ' . 
    It's like drawing a line in the sand and saying this is my side and that's not.  Those that are with me don't cross that line and those that cross that line are picking the side they are on.
    I mean really,  after He got double-crossed by the discontented angels and He kicked them out of Heaven, I don't blame Him for putting us through the test of living through this quagmire of toils and troubles just to see who's true to Him.
    Rc
  • seer said on Feb 15, 2009....
    Wow. That's pretty cool for someone faithful to not dish out dammnation and say 'I know EXACTLY what God wants!'
  • satanz said on Feb 15, 2009....
    At least make abortions fun for everyone. Have pre abortion parties. A soul gathering get together!
  • anonymous said on Feb 24, 2009....
    AMEN.

    Meat is murder     but those pro-lifers will suck down a steak in a NY minute.

     (I like the Smiths so I posted that). I am a veggie-eater though.
  • anonymous said on Feb 24, 2009....
    stopmediabias asked

    2-Why is it a man who gets a woman pregnant has no say in abortion or no abortion but if she decides to have the baby she can hound him till the end of time for financial support?

    I will assume you are asking this to get various responses, because the answer is already quite obvious.

    - The man has no say in abortion cuz it ain't his body!

    - If a baby is born, that human life must be cared for and our laws say that the man and woman who produced the child must provide for it--IT IS THE LAW. If you believe a child should be supported and cared for or in your world "brought to term", then ya damn skippy they both better support it! Cuz I sure as hell am sick of supporting kids that people can't afford to care for themselves.

    --single, childless and loving it!

    Zero population growth...do it for a better world
  • stopmediabias said on Feb 25, 2009....

    I would respond but it is almost a consensus here at Soulcast that people who comment anon are cowards, sorry.

    Except for the meat comment, that's a gem.  Did you know the processing of a meat diet kills less animals than the processing of a veggie diet?

  • one_wired_kitty said on Feb 25, 2009....

    "And that is just the teenagers in the USA.  Bush was in IDIOT!!!!  He was ONLY in power because he conned the moronic right wing christian fascists in America."

     

    Never voted for Bush but still nice to know I'm an "idiot"

     

    My stance on abortion remains unchanged.

  • andora said on Feb 25, 2009....
    no one is forcing abortion upon those who don't want one

    however,

    there are those who believe they have the right to tell those who do wish to have an abortion how to live their lives. these people are condoning fascist laws

    many women would practice spiritual birthcontrol methods if they knew about them, but there are very pious folks who don't believe that spiritual abortion is possible bc they are faithless; so, they would rather legislate laws based upon old, superstitious belief's held by a minority. in essence, those who wish to make abortion illegal are against a 'Representative Republic', which is the definition of our constitution. we are not a democracy, we are a representative republic.

    so all those who wish to legislate your morality upon those who do not share your morality are fascists. Fascism is a dead political concept that died in the World War and is entirely un-American.

    It doesn't matter whether you think abortion is murder or not...you simply do not have the right to shove your beliefs down the throats of others and still call yourself an American Patriot. As you seem to think you are patriotic, yet know very little about the constitution that you claim guns will protect. do us all a favor and use your guns to keep your superstitions to yourselves. the very same people here that are claiming that a zygot is a human are the same uneducated and superstitious hillbillies that believe that the same human zygot has no presence of being (I have shared stories of women and men who practice spiritual birthcontrol and was only met with contempt by those who claim to care. they don't really care bc they advocate blaming those stuck in the ghetto, rather than giving them solutions!

    so-called 'pro-lifers' talk out of both sides of their mouth as if their love for the unborn makes them a better American than those who advocate the mother's free will in this matter.

    men could create more equity in regard to their rights as a parent in the decision making process regarding abortion or birth, if they actually cared, but pro-life men rarely educate themselves about knew scientific information because many of them don't even believe in evolution and are incapable of evolving thoughts of their own. 

    and you think it makes you a good person to push other people around? women are the one's who should make this decision, not the man, the doctor, the church or gov. so many that are against abortion actually think they are fighting for the rights of others, when in fact they are fighting for the right to abrogate the rights of the mother! In this, each woman is sovereign and should help to keep the laws off of the bodies of other women.

  • andora said on Feb 25, 2009....
    and yesss

    i know there are many here that are not Americans, but my orientation to this paradoxical conversation is as an American caught within a bigotry called religion

    fuck your religion if it calls for fascism in the name of love
  • mixednuts said on Mar 06, 2009....
    many things may e a womans right, but it could still be wrong
  • QUEENandora said on Mar 06, 2009....
    Women have no right to murder children except during times of war. Abortion is murder. If we must perform abortions let's at least try to make it fun!
  • seer said on Mar 06, 2009....
    make it fun?!
  • mongol said on Mar 08, 2009....
    Forced abortions are coming along with the one world government.
  • andora said on Mar 08, 2009....
    oh paleeeze! I thought i had the last word in this circular firing squad

    listen up u charlatans

    you are beating a dead horse!

    you are being replaced by the enlightened and you have so little time, cus you are talking dead, worn out, dysfunctional ideas!

    read carefully:

    two days ago i had the great privilege to sit by my fire in the forest with Dawone. A man of 28 yrs from Texas. He and his partner have been making love for years without getting pregnant. Then, they decided to procreate a child and specifically made love to conceive. He and she experienced an unusual, simultaneous orgasm that ended with laughter for an entire 10 minutes. His beautiful goddess will give birth this spring. His countenance, while sharing this with me, was filled with light (a measurable form of "L" energy that is electromagnetic energy specific to a human heart -- Dr. Paul Pearsall, Hawaiian Heart Surgeon wrote - The Hearts Code.)

    After receiving this great information I asked Dawone how he had prevented pregnancy all the years before conception.... i was so surprised by his absolute presence of being as he said:

    "Every time we made love, we instructed the sperm not to find the egg"

    HELLLOOOO :]

    listen up folks

    you have been by-passed in the realm of human evolution and you haven't even noticed!!!!!!!

    read my thesis about the nature of creation and the responsiveness of this multiplex creation to personality. Yesssss you are a unique personality....learn how to use what you have

    www.pangasm.org


  • SeanRenaud said on Mar 08, 2009....
    I love listening to your insane babble.
  • andora said on Mar 09, 2009....
    wellll nowww? did they finally let you out of jail sean?
  • SeanRenaud said on Mar 09, 2009....
    Yeah it turns out that murder is legal as long as you instruct the spirit to depart for the afterlife without bullets.
  • andora said on Mar 09, 2009....
    its all a matter of creating agreements


  • andora said on Mar 09, 2009....
    and, of course one could prevent pregnancy as Dawone has done....i have met many others

    maybe maui is a magnet for the highly evolved....possibly, i am waaayyyy ahead of my time and should save my angst bc it is really just a matter of time before spiritual birth control is known and practiced by the masses -- this is what i will project

    sooner than later is good

  • one_wired_kitty said on Mar 10, 2009....
    HH - I know what shot you're talking about. My mom had to get that same shot when she was pregnant with me. (She's AB-, I think ... I'm A+)
  • SeanRenaud said on Mar 10, 2009....
    Thing is if such things were possible everybody would do it.  It's not advanced.  Advanced is shots and patches and chemicals.  This is primitive.  That doesn't make it bad, there are lots of things that are best handled in the older ways but that doesn't make the techniques highly evolved.  There is nothing evolved about meditation but science has yet to improve upon it.
  • RollingC said on Mar 10, 2009....
    @ Kitty  -  That's strange that your mom has negative type blood and you don't. 
    I knew someone that had negative type blood and the entire family was Type negative.
    Rc
  • PieterOpie said on Mar 24, 2009....
    OMG!!!  I just remembered that this was my thread..... hahahaha...   I guess I better go and read the last few posts.    OK.  I'll be back.... 
  • javadewd said on Apr 13, 2009....
    PieterOpie is a child. He doesn't care about your opinion, but waits for those who simply do not agree with his point of view so that he may pounce on them and call them fascists or Nazis or whatever. In his mind, it's PieterOpie world and you're simply blocking his view. PieterOpie is a lonely fudge-packer with nothing better to do than to watch his e-mail alerts for SoulCast reply posts, to search the system for his name (because he likes his name) and to corn-hole little boys. PieterOpie is the king of his domain, and most of all, he hates bush... or is it Bush? I keep forgetting... PieterOpie is a tar baby. The more you converse with him, the more you get sucked into his world of uselessness and it can actually make you lose IQ points.
  • seer said on Apr 13, 2009....

    PieterOpie is a nice guy! He's an open minded liberal. I think you are a dick for attacking him like that.

    And I speak to Opie frequently.  I graduated college at 18, travelled with my work (outdoor instructing), and got enough cash to re-enrole to college at 21 (ADI, and I am currently studying in partnership with a school who are setting up my own franchise). And I'm only 22.

    In my free time I go rock climbing.

    I have an IQ of 138, and enjoy reading and chess.

    What have you done with your life?  

  • starchini said on Apr 13, 2009....

    Java,  I imagine Peter musta said something really really really good to get you so darn pissed off at him.  Let it go...he doesnt mean half of what he says.  Hes just very loud, like you.  Take it or leave it.  Dont go gay bashing bc you got offended by someone.  You'll regret it later.  Peter being gay has nothing to do with anything and you know it.  Your just trying to pass hurt around.  And its not very nice...

  • javadewd said on Apr 13, 2009....
    Well, seer, I only had to go to college to get a piece of paper that said I knew what I was doing. I had been working as a programmer since I was 14 years old for various universities. I have built order tracking systems for large telecoms and mid-sized companies and have forged out on my own with my own business. I'm married now, to a wonderful woman, and we're working at our respective jobs and renovating this little house we're in so that we can move into a bigger one and start having kids. As fulfilling as yours sounds -- and I envy you graduating college at 18, my parents refused to let the public school system advance me -- I actually enjoy my life with no regrets. I've never bothered to measure my IQ, because I'm just not that self-centered, no offense. I guess if it became something of importance, I'd have to take a test or two. Things are moving along well in my business and I'm hoping to sell it off in a few years and open a bohemian coffee house somewhere. Most of this I've already posted here at SC. I once had a free-standing blog that earned me a little cash here and there, but I got away from it and a few months ago I ended up here. Interesting community... Nice... Real nice... Now I see why tigers eat their young. Thank you, Rodney Dangerfield!

    Starchini, I was fine until the fucker kept chasing me from post to post just railing on me. I really just see him as cheap entertainment. It's like we seem to be trying to get under each other's skin or out-slam the other. I thought it was some sort of game, and I just wanted to play along. Last time we got into an entanglement like this was when I first came to SC some months ago and somehow I thought we called a draw or something like that. It seems every time I say "Bush" the guy goes all moon-bat-shit crazy on me. Hey, if he prefers balls across the nose, that's his preference. He was also talking shit about my wife, with no basis, but again, I guess it's like the whole "yo mama so fat" mentality. Eh, he's hardly worth it. What's another loud-mouth obnoxious pickle puffer anyway?

  • anonymous said on Apr 17, 2009....
    It is too bad they don't have some sort of test that they can perform on the fetus to determine whether or not it would be a homosexual or even a liberal. Those are good reasons for abortions!
  • javadewd said on Apr 18, 2009....
    Nah, I disagree... It takes all kinds... I wish I could blame bad parenting or the educational system, but I have found that even under the best of circumstances it doesn't change one's political views.
  • andora said on Apr 18, 2009....
    sean, spiritual birthcontrol is not an ancient technique, it is a revolutionary movement of sexual beings that understand the Laws of Nature....people who love themselves enough to have alignment with their desire....I am not aware of any ancient peoples that had evolved to this point. I have a friend that bore 3 children -- one with a condom, one with a diaphram and the other with birth control pills -- way technological solutions -- NOT!

    Javaweed,
    google Indigo Children to find out the difference between book smart and evolutionary progress

    we have much to be thankful for if we simply open our hearts and minds to new ways of being....I have seen no proof of this at soulcast javaweed....you help to prove this
  • javadewd said on Apr 18, 2009....
    Was that a slam? I don't get it... {Shrugs.}
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 19, 2009....

    Spiritual Birthcontrol is a fairy tale.  If it weren't everybody would know about it.  If it even showed preliminary results it would be on 60 minutes like that Atkins diet.  IT's pure undilluted bullshit is what it is.

    And yes modern birth control fails on occasion.  That means what exactly.  Are you going to tell me that planes don't fly because you can site cases of them falling out of the sky?  Speaking of which when are your nut bags going to come up with spiritual flight? 

  • javadewd said on Apr 19, 2009....
    I call it : Straw man! SR is building a straw man again! Site a source!!
  • andora said on Apr 19, 2009....
    straw man my assss!

    I simply share what I have witnessed - you of all people sean should understand that I did not come here to trap anyone into believing anything at all...what I have advocated was personal sovereignty -- the kind of free will that is capable of creating birth control without violence or creating powerlessness in the name of ancient superstitious perspectives.

    you and many like you here in this house of mirrors love to label that which you do not understand, and that which you refuse to understand as unsubstantial....when the truth is, you have never read the scientific proof I provide to you and anyone else that wants to silence this information. What I have gathered about the people who slander information they know little about is that they are invested in looking good more than they are interested in new information...after all, what would it look like if they didn't know about revolutionary solutions!

    I will not allow your petty insults to make me shirk from my agenda

    and what is that?

    to spread the good news about free will and creative solutions

    sucks to be the living dead sean, you are a great example of how painful it is....your posturing here decries the realities of your own life, and those realities are not pretty and actually disqualify your remarks against the solutions I offered you years ago...go ahead and demean me and my message here, it does not change the fact that i live in freedom and you are a slave to old ideas that demean loving and sincere participants. you can't get your cheap insulting sarcastic slime on me and it must irritate you --- so you see, your silence will not detere me, your sarcastic know nothing labels won't detere me, because I am free and you promote powerlessness and hide the truth about your own failures like a dumb fuck

    and then there is the javaweed that postures like succeeding in a heartless paradigm make one better than another.... the whole tack involved in demeaning and heartless comparisons between one group or another are a boring and stupdd dead end. there is no community here, there are only competitive minor demons plying for attention.



  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 19, 2009....

    Site a source for what Java?

    As for you Andora I've glossed over the websites you've suggested and they all read like neopaganism.  If you believe in such and such you can will the universe into such and such action.  If it was possible we'd know and we'd be doing it. 

  • javadewd said on Apr 19, 2009....
    No, Andora, I was saying that SR was pulling that opinion out of his ass. You come bearing scientific proof and in one sentance, SR tries to disprove you. It's just silly. Rhetorically speaking: If your only source is yourself (I am finding out this the hard way here at SC) then how valid is your opinion?
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 19, 2009....

    Condoms being 99% effective is an accepted fact.  So is the pill being in the 90s I forget the exact number.  These aren't facts that you're suppposed to need to site.  Hense why I asked what exactly you wanted sited. 

    The burden of proof for this lies on Andora to have peer reviewed evidence.  Otherwise I can pretty much call her stupid with abandon.  Please hurry up and get bored, you're a horrible troll.

  • javadewd said on Apr 19, 2009....
    No, no, no...

    "Spiritual Birth control is a fairy tale."

    Actually, the rhythm method has worked for years, it's just that people don't want to 'stop' having sex... That's not neo-paganism, that's simply a fact, sonny-jim.

    [source 1] - [source 2] - [source 3] - [source 4]

    "Are you going to tell me that planes don't fly because you can site cases of them falling out of the sky?"

    Okay, you got it : [source 1] - [source 2] - [source 3] - [source 4]

    Now what are you going to do? Ban me like bloc did for backing up my shit?

  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 20, 2009....

    The Rhythm method is not spiritual birth control.  Andora believes that you can literally say.  "Sperm do not join with egg.  Do not make baby.  ANY FUCKING TIME YOU PLEASE.  And if you forgot you can think hard "Baby I cannot take care of you, got back to Heaven and come back when I'm ready" and the baby will abort itself.  It's not the Rhythm method which is proven fact.

    Again are you claiming that planes don't fly?  I looked at the first two of your sources, are you seriously claiming again because you can find even four sources that planes do not fly.  I want you to say that.  Exactly that.  Planes.  Don't.  Fly.

  • javadewd said on Apr 20, 2009....
    I don't see Andora's claim to your outrageous quotes, but I'm sure she'll correct me if that's not the case. The rhythm method is what most Catholics use and is considered in many circles to be a form of spiritual (or more to the point "faith-based") birth control. Given that it's Catholics, granted some are more successful at it than others.

    Besides, you didn't say to find sources saying "planes do not fly," you said "falling out of the sky" and that's what I did... Sited sources of planes falling out of the sky, because as you can see, SR, not all planes that *do* fly *don't* fall out of the sky.You use too many generalizations and too many absolute statements to be siting them as fact, especially when you are the only "source." That's what I've been trying to drill into your egotistical head all weekend!

    Now get on the short bus!
  • Reddpaw said on Apr 20, 2009....
    LOL, guess what piet? I just could not stay away.
    I have learned more about SC and thought I would stick around for awhile....and NO, I do not love you.
    I am just not so used to being treated that way.
    eh, I'll get over it.

    On the subject at hand, (great subject BTW, Piet),
    I agree with many that abortion is wrong, but for different reasons.
    I agree that the male should have say in abortion or not.
    I agree with the danger to woman reasons.

    I feel this way because I believe that the fetus is a human, though the parasite path is rather interesting concept.

    ALL LIFE is precious, not because of Religious views. ( I am Pagan). But because it is just the way I believe.

    Life is energy, energy is never destroyed, only Changed.
    Therefor, we continue thru the cosmos and just change forms.

    I know that when my wife told me she was pregnant with my daughter, I cried with tears of joy! (despite the fact that we could not support the child at that time.)

    I would not trade my children for anything in the world. They bring me joy and gave my life purpose. And if my wife had aborted the fetus without my consent I would have divorced her, and started the preceding immediately.

    I have more to say, but thats it for now.

    thanks for listening.

    Peace and Love,
    Redd



  • JusticeForAll said on Apr 23, 2009....

    Personally, I'm pro-life. I could never go through something like an abortion and have that on my conscience. As to say that someone else shouldn't be able to to with their body as they so choose is not up to me, nor should it be up to any other body of government, religious orginization, ot anyone else for that matter other than the two people that created it in the first place. So do I believe that there should be laws against abortion? No. But I do believe that there should be certian criteria. If a woman is constantly getting pregnant, than maybe mommy and daddy should have spent a little more time telling her and her boyfriend about contraceptives. Abortion isn't a solution for every woman who spreads her legs a little too willingly and shouldn't be taken advantage of, but it certainly is an alternative for some.

    I knew this girl in high school. She was a slut, to say the least, and when she had an abortion the only thing she had to say was "I can't have sex for 3 months! What the hell is that!?"

    Now she is married and wants to have children. They have been trying for 5 years with no luck. Her doctor told her that when she had her abortion it did a lot of damage to her uterus and that she would have around a 5-10% chance of ever conceiving a viable child. I say that's Karma, but who am I?

  • javadewd said on Apr 23, 2009....
    I have a dick, therefore unless I'm the "root cause," I'd prefer to leave the decision to the women-folk, however, if an abortion drives them to the point of insanity (over guilt of "killing their unborn child") then don't stick me with the bill. Experience has told me that these women eventually lose their jobs (over their hysteria), lose their homes (because they have no jobs) and then go on the government tit (SSDI). Call it Karma or whatever, but I didn't start it, so why am I paying for it?

  • andora said on Apr 23, 2009....
    revolutionary information means that it is previously unheard of

    the information in panGasm discusses the responsive nature of the elements that make up the physical world. The scientists that I quote are reputable and offering information unheard of, this does not mean it is not real.

    the elements are responsive to aligned consciousness, if that consciousness is projecting death as their future transformative event, then the elements that establish the spiritual and physical reality of that consciousness move to create death. In an environment of death the consciousness splits off into warring factions that constitute the Battle of the Sexes. This battle prevents people from having free will over their physical capacity and establishes random haphazard results as all there is to reality, when the truth is that creation is responding accurately to the plan for death.

    We have been observing this relative 3rd dimensional reality as all there is to reality, when the truth is that our birthright is 4th dimensional. All those who project death and establish death consciousness as their paradigm are denying their birthright and collapsing their creations with regularity.

    the information I provide is free, meaning that my only agenda here is to spread the good news. Now that my book is available in hardcopy, I will be leaving soulcast to promote it in more fertile waters. Soul Cast is not a fertile environment for creative people. even the ones that call themselves creative are simply regurgitating dead information that renders their lives miserable for all to see.


    which is why I constantly say

    it sucks to be the living dead regurgitating dead and useless information!
  • andora said on Apr 23, 2009....
    I do not apologize for existing in a relative form of heartlessness

    heartlessness is the human condition

    the only way to resolve the electromagnetic conundrum of the current human condition is to at least understand that I am recovering from heartless rather than to claim superior position
  • javadewd said on Apr 23, 2009....
    Depravity of man?
  • andora said on Apr 24, 2009....
    the human condition is rooted in the Battle of the Sexes

    a battle happening within each and every individual creating a world gone mad with insanity and self-hatred, often disguised as piousness
  • javadewd said on Apr 24, 2009....
    I donno. It seems to me that men can be just as big of assholes to other men, while women can be just as fickle and back-stabbing to other women, so I don't understand how you widdle this down to a Battle of the Sexes, but it seems like an interesting place to start, though... From reading your stuff (I think you sent me the link before -- maybe you should give it out again for reference) it had some very interesting arguments, which by my subscribing to the depravity of all human beings I had no problem agreeing with.
  • andora said on Apr 24, 2009....


    pangasm review

    thanks javadewd for not ridiculing me...the battle of the sexes is an inside job considering that we all have a positive (male) polarity and a negative (female) polarity that do not reciprocate because of the dominant paradigm that forces both genders to adopt death with all of their heart during childhood -- death begins at that time

    mahalo for your aloha
  • javadewd said on Apr 25, 2009....
    And I think that's why I don't have any problems agreeing with what you're talking about, it's just that I think the root goes a little deeper to be inclusive to both parties, which from a 'third perspective' (I guess) both of our spiritual beliefs coincide just the jargon and origin is a bit different. How can I ridicule somebody who is basically five or six out of seven points on the same page with me? It makes about as much sense as a Lutheran and a Presbyterian arguing over Calvinism...
  • andora said on Apr 25, 2009....
    no doubt about sectarianism

    and I do agree that semantics are holding me back temporarily

    as with all new info, it is important to be consistent with word useage, even if the reader has to educate his/her self. I have done my best to present a principle that is all inclusive. the principle of panGasm does not tell people what to do with their birthright, it simply gives them a heads up about what they already have access to, yet have not known about.

    LET THE ODYSSEY BEGIN

    aloha my friend, I'll be gone for awhile and I wish to thank you for your kind words
  • Alex2 said on May 17, 2009....
    I'm not against abortion. I'm not really for bringing people into bad situations. But an abortion is a sign of irresponsibility and running away from responsibility for one's actions does not help anyone in the long run.

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Can Catholics Be Pro-abortion?

stopmediabias posted about 4 hours ago | views: 15 | Tags: politics, abortion, religion, CATHOLIC CHURCH
Kennedy get banned from communion for his stance on abortion...... read entire post 0 comments

Go Die

Hegemone posted 1 day ago | views: 70 | Tags: pissed, loud music, sleep, dad, no sleep for you, murder, =D
Screw your life, it's worth NOTHING and you're taking away precious air I could be breathing and yeah I'm a whole hell of a lot more important than you'll EVER be you piece of crap.... read entire post 9 comments

Subtitle F—Relation to Other Requirements; Miscellaneous.

sheltercrow posted on Oct 30, 2009 | views: 27 | Tags: Insurance Exchange, discrimination, Collective bargaining, abortion
More deconstruction... read entire post 0 comments

Media continue to misrepresent abortion provisions in health reform bill.

sheltercrow posted on Nov 07, 2009 | views: 29 | Tags: abortion, health reform bill
...language in the current House bill already segregates federal money so it cannot be used directly to fund abortions, and the proposed amendment would effectively ban abortion coverage for some who have it now.... read entire post 0 comments

My book, "Numan" is about human rights.

WriterCarlDobbs posted 10 days ago | views: 33 | Tags: choice, adventure, Dobbs, abortion
What happens when the "right to life" is denied to more than just embryos? We go back to the days of slavery, Nazism, and eugenics. Read my posts on "Numan" and see where this thinking can take us! Everyone under the age of 12 is non-human!... read entire post 0 comments