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D6fer asked for more blogging and I am going for controversial today. I can’t remember all the details but I think the bare facts should be enough for the question.


When I was home for Christmas I heard a story on the news about two Afghanistan youths who were up for the death sentence. They had been fighting at their high school and one student was killed. The two responsible for the death were sentenced to beheading.


Why this made news in Canada was because the two boys are Canadian citizens and there was a lot of pressure from support groups for the Canadian government to intervene. As the youths were Canadians we should help them. The government was slow to act and at the time of the story there was finally a response saying that something should be done to help bring them back to Canada and save their lives.


Where the story took a foul turn for me was that these youths were born in Afghanistan and came to Canada with their mother as immigrants. They stayed long enough to be eligible to apply for citizenship and once they got it they went back to their motherland. Apparently many people do this. They leave their troubled homeland to get citizenship in Canada and then go back. When trouble arises they flee back to Canada, easily getting in because they are “Canadians”.


Now, of course I don’t agree with the two being beheaded but my immediate response to the news was, “Why do we have to help them? They are not really Canadians. They only came here to get that magic status and then they left again. They had no intention of actually living in Canada, abiding by Canadian law, attempting to integrate to some degree with Canadian culture (however you want to define it) and the Canadian way of life. They committed a crime in Afghanistan as two boys who are well familiar with the Afghani way of life and the law. So now the Canadian government is obligated to help them out? I don’t really think so.”


This of course broaches the topic of exactly how do you define what a real Canadian (or American, or British subject, or whatever) is and at what point does the Canadian government have an obligation to do something. To me it seems that many people simply abuse the system. We have many immigrants who collect welfare as an income source to cover-up their drug selling. We have a lot of people who just come to Canada to collect social handouts and do nothing to contribute to the country or their communities. Some people are serious about making their way in our nation. Others are just freeloaders. And for those who just leave again and keep their citizenship as a safety ticket, should we help them?


Maybe we should. But I don’t agree exactly with the government helping in this situation.



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Comments

  • diabolicdame said on Jan 21, 2009....
    Hmmmnn.. interesting.. I personally feel that you are only a true citizen of any nation if you are culturally and socially integrated in its society to some extent. I'd also like to add that you should be contributing to the nation's well-being and economy but then a lot of people, immigrants as well as natives, dont do that so I will refrain. But certainly you should be integrated into their soceity to some extent!! Just having the 'citizenship' status does not really make you a part of the nation.. or should not.. but then also whats the point of the citizenship if it doesnt do that?

    The key thing in this story to me is, as you said, they were Afghani boys, born there, lived there, they understood its law.. and they commited their act fully knowing the repurcussions under the law! They should certainly not be saved and allowed to go free.. but also given they are young and not hardened crimials they should certainly absolutely not be beheaded!!

    I guess the canadian government could svae their lives and then put them in jail for the rest of their lives??

    I don't know how articulate I've been here.. lots of grey areas in this issue.. but more or less I agree with you.. somewhat.. I guess.. hehehehe..   :-)
  • hotaka said on Jan 21, 2009....
    I was thinking afterward that perhaps as a civilized (so-called civilized) country perhaps we should do something to help them, save them from capital punishment (decapita-l punishment?- joke). However, their crime should not go unpunished.

    There was a slightly similar situation in Japan some years ago where a Chinese man murdered a Chinese woman here and fled to China. He was caught in China thanks to the Inter-Pol, however the Chinese government refused to return him to Japan for sentencing. They said that he would be punished according to his crime by Chinese law. I never heard the outcome. But I wonder if his punishment would have been less severe or the same if he had murdered a Japanese girl instead.

    Anyway, my humanitarian side says we should help those boys, but the cynic in me turns a spiteful head.

    Thanks for your thoughts, diabolicD.
  • PAPERBACKWRITER said on Jan 21, 2009....

    Hello, hotaka!

    I hope you don´t mind if I just follow the thread for now...(I am giving up my lurker coat, and making myself more visible this way to blogs I have regularly visited through almost 3 years in SC :) )

    I have a citizenship dilemma, and I might react too personally and emotionally if I respond (be out of tangent and undeliberately hijack the post), so I would refrain.  But the subject (citizenship) interest me a lot, so I am here.

    paper ~
  • uniquely-ironic said on Jan 21, 2009....
    Tough subject.  My thoughts are that they knew well the consequences of their actions, having been born and at least partially raised in that country.  It's one thing to visit a country and be ignorant of breaking laws, but these two knew.  Using citizenship of another country is also very cowardly.  That being said, I don't think the punishment was reasonable, whether these two were Canadian or Afghanie.  So I guess my problem is with the Afghan government more than with my sympathies to the two youths.
     
    How did it turn out?
  • Fallyn said on Jan 21, 2009....
    I think i agree with Uni........my problem is with the governments policies....rather than being sympathetic to the boys.
  • GrapeKoolaid said on Jan 21, 2009....
    Umm...  As to your second example (about the Chinese guy in Japan), I fear Chinese law a lot more than Japanese law.  A Chinese dissident can very easily "fall in the shower" and meet his/her untimely end, if you get my drift.  [shudders]

    As to your first example, I know of many "other" nationals who come to the US, rack up a huge amount of debt, go back to their mother country and come back with their name spelled differently.  They're issued a new social security number and gets to start fresh, you know?  It's yet another way the people abuse the system. 

    No matter what safeguards are in place, I'm afraid people will find ways to abuse a system.  That's the sorry nature of humanity, you know?  A sad commentary on the desperation of modern life.  I'm not placing any value-judgments on it, however.  Life is hard enough as it is.  Whatever people can do to get by, they have to do it, I guess. 

    I think those kids should be beheaded.  Taking a life in a schoolyard fight is a bit extreme, don't you think?  If the crime is committed in a country that has a retributive justice system in place, that's the way things should be handled.  Those kids were aware of what the consequences would be committing a crime in a country that abides by sharia law.  Canada shouldn't be an escape hatch for them.  They should pay for what they've done. 

    Kinda reminds me of that American kid that got busted for tagging in (was it) Indonesia(?) and had to get a lashing.  He deserved every smack, if you ask me. 
  • fragglesrock said on Jan 21, 2009....
    wow...this is controversial...just even for myself.  i really don't know how one draws the line on who is a true citizen or not. 
  • uncertaingirl said on Jan 21, 2009....
    My unworthy Canadian opinion on this is... behead them.  They left the country and committed a crime in another.  While I may not agree on what the punishment is, they still committed a crime in that country.  I fully expect to be hanged in Texas if I were to kill someone there and if I murdered someone in Afghanistan, I would expect to be subject to their laws and punishment.

    The whole citizenship issue is beyond my grasp.  I was born here in Canada and assume that when people come here, they plan on becoming Canadian citizens.  I seriously hope and believe that people are good and they don't have ulterior motives or intentions when claiming citizenship.  Isn't that what makes Canada great?
  • hotaka said on Jan 21, 2009....
    I have a class in four minutes but I just want to express my appreciation for the excellent reponses, even the short ones, to this post. I will be back to comment later, maybe tomorrow as Thursdays are very busy for me. But thank you all so far.
  • hotaka said on Jan 21, 2009....
    OK. I have about 15 minutes here.

    diabolicD, I agree that beheading is too harsh a punishment but I can assure you that if they were punished for the crime in Canada their sentencing would be very lax indeed. If they got six months in jail and 50 hours community service that would be rather typical. The way I see it is that if you commit a crime in a country you are subject to that country's laws. In their case they can't plead ignorance of Afghani laws. But beheading does seem severe.

    PAPER, thank you so reading. I am sure you are familiar with citizenship issues however I am also sure you don't go about committing heinous crimes and hope your citizenship claim will save your neck, so to speak.

    UI, I think I agree with what you said and mentioned the same thing in my response to diabolicD. As for the result, if the canadian government is actually going to do something then you can be certain it will take several years for anything to happen. We are not known as a country that acts with haste. Everything must be deliberated and put aside many times before any resolution can be arrived at.

    Fallyn, yes, I think so too. But should Canada intervene just to save them from capital punishment? I mean, we don't have it in Canada so are we (Canada) obligated to help individuals with canadian citizenship who commit crimes in another country and receive capital punishment as their sentence?

    Grapemate, it's true that life is tough and tougher for some than others, and so some people try to take advantage of the system just to get by. Others do it because they can and don't really need to get by. I point out drug sellers in Canada who claim welfare as their income source to cover-up where they get their real money from. Your examples from the U.S. sound similar. It would be nice to believe that everyone who uses the benefits of a welfare system is realy in need however sadly free-loaders are everywhere, just looking for a short cut.

    I agree with getting lashes or caning in a country if you wilfully break that country's laws and are sentenced according to that country's laws. Beheading sounds severe but on the other hand if that's the law I don't think another country needs to interfere. Still, if an American were in the same situation I am sure the U.S. government would do all it could to bring its own home.

    Gotta run again.
  • husbandhater said on Jan 22, 2009....
    I think i agree with you babe. I don't think they should be beheaded but I don't think that immigrants should be playing games with our countries either interms of their citizenship status. i think if they want to be a citizen then LIVE in that particular place and do that. To go back home means that you obviously don't want to be a citizen and that you really want to be where ever it is that you came from.(If this makes sense) Anyhow i say don't help them either. This system is not theirs to abuse. And whose to say they wouldn't come to Canada and make trouble and be a burden to their system.
     
    Sad and sorry but bye boys.
  • hotaka said on Jan 22, 2009....
    fraggles, it is a tough call but clearly having citizenship status does not equate being a contributing citizen.

    uncertaingirl, I agree that if you decide to become a citizen of a country it should be with the intent of making your life there, living by that country's rules, and at least making some effort to integrate with other citizens by following local customs. That doesn't mean giving up your traditions and beliefs but some people just bring their country to a new country and lock themselves away in a bubble of their own culture. Simply grabbing the citizenship ticket and taking off again means they were not serious about staying.

    Yes, I agree. If you are sentenced to be hanged in Texas then that's your fate unless you have a good lawyer of course. But then what about those girls would were given life imprisonment in Thailand for possession of drugs which were actually not theirs but in a package they were asked to carry for a guy they met who pretended to befriend them? That's a different story though, isn't it because they didnt purposely try to bring drugs into Thailand.

    husbandhater, you know, they could always have come back to Canada and then been part of the next attempted terrorist attack on the U.S. Some terrorists have been labeled as Canadian in the media because of their citizenship. But no real Canadian would think to commit a terrorist act anywhere. I can just see the government saving their butts and five years later they are in the news as suicide bombers in D.C.

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