• uniquely-ironic said on Jan 19, 2009....

  the eternal struggle that many of us have.  Enough.  Just enough.  I sympathize and hope that you do find or make enough to have the things you hold most important.

• starchini said on Jan 19, 2009....

  Thank you uni.  Right after I posted this I had a good long talk with my dad. 
  
  I feel much better now.  Very much less "woah is me"...
   
  Im not sorry for myself anymore, slight moment of weakness : ) 

• uniquely-ironic said on Jan 19, 2009....

  We all have them Star.  You're just behaving humanly. 

• woman said on Jan 19, 2009....

  There is a whole country of people who are struggling as you are. Good people who are working 2 or 3 jobs to try and meet the rent and put food on the table. People who aren't getting to spend time with their children because they are always working. There are millions of people who have no health insurance. My son is one of them. He works hard but his company doesn't have health insurance. His health suffers because of it. There's a whole world struggling Star. Children who have never have clean water to drink. Children that die from starvation or dirty water. Children who live in shacks with no bathrooms or running water. Children who don't have a shack to live in. And yet, I do believe that God loves us all Star. You may not have what you want but you will have enough. Your baby will be one of the lucky ones born into this world. I'm glad you spoke with your father and you are feeling better. Big hugs. (I want them big enough for you and that baby!) woman

• scipio said on Jan 20, 2009....

  As the good book says ; thous shalt live by the sweat of thy brow" - which unfortuntely many were not doing and that is why they are in such a mess. Living beyond one's means and thanks to the easy availablity of the credit - for many it was a financial suicide. Instant gratifcation and greed is what caused all this mess. Now we are all paying the price - more so the poor and those on limited incomes and big families. So sorry.
   
  As they say - it's never too late. Curb all unnecessary wants and try to live within your means.  That is the simple law of economics.
   
   
   
   

• starchini said on Jan 20, 2009....

  Hugs to you too woman,  I havnt forgotten about all the others far worse of than me, I do my part to help.  Not sure how much longer though.  Its about time i start listening to my mom "Charity begins in the home Christina, quit giving all your money away"....

  Scipio, my brother is sure to keep me in line.  He is very knowledgable when it comes to finances.  He is a branch manager of a handful of wells fargos.  I get ears full.  Luckily ive always lived within my means.  Sure ive got emergency credit cards but all my cards have zero to very low balance.  Thats just it though, im tired of not having means.  I spose i can stop eating breakfast.  That would save Phil and I money. 

• Grimm said on Jan 20, 2009....

  Starchini,
  Have you considered that this trial you are going through is not that God is not blessing you, but that He *IS*?
  This will bring you closer to Him, it will shear away the things that cause you to keep Him at arms length.
  For every son (or daughter) that He loves He chastens.
  Actually, if things are going great for you, THAT is when you should worry and reexamine your relationship with God.
  I'm sorry folks, but those prosperity preachers out there are WRONG.
  Don't think that just because you are not on easy street that God is witholding blessings from you. Jesus would walk into those churches and start turning the tables over and saying "You have turned my Father's house into a den of thieves!"
  ------------------------Grimm

• starchini said on Jan 20, 2009....

  umm...the quote i have is from the bible, i dont consider God a prosperity preacher and i certainly dont consider him to be wrong.  And i certainly dont think that all people who have blessings raining down upon them are thieves.  I agree that God gives us our trials and tests of faith.  But in the end it all works out, this is why people continue with faith, they know that at some point while working through the sludge their savior will save them.  I should reaxamine my life and relationship with God when things are going great for me?  Wow, grim, i gotta completly disagree.  How horrible it would be to have faith in God and expect to live a miserable life because of it.  I have blessings raining down upon me left and right and my life is in no way miserable.  I thank God for that.  I just would prefer some of all this fruit from my labor to be in cash form. 

  I have a home and a wonderful family and a loving fiance and a beautiful baby boy on the way, i have a job  and food in my belly...many many blessings, i am very fortunate.  However im easy to please, and im just hoping and praying that soon God will repay me the fruit of my labor and i wont have to live paycheck to paycheck.  But my blessings seem to come in forms other than money.  : /   And i supose thats okay and i should be greatful for what i do have.  And i am. 

  I fully do believe that God will provide to those who are worthy...i dont believe he would upturn pews and call the church goers thieves for being prosperous. 

  Thank you for your comment

• Grimm said on Jan 20, 2009....

  I was referring to the ones who take 10% of their follower's money and drive bentleys... It is my opinion that these people belong to the world.
  I did not mean that no one rich can know God... Jesus said it was harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. But then He said that with God anything is possible.
  I just think that the popular prosperity teaching of recent years is taking people's eyes off God and turning them to another god: money.
  I didn't mean to offend you; I was trying to help you see that trials are not always bad. That they have a purpose. You said yourself that your relationship with God hasn't been what you would like it to be.
  And the apostles had faith WHILE living miserable lives. They took joy in their afflictions, yes, but affliction was a major part of their lives. Most of them were killed. As was Jesus. Because we are not from this world and therefore it hates us.
  ----------Grimm

• Grimm said on Jan 20, 2009....

  Matt 21:12-17
  12 Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 13 And He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves.'"
  14 Then the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.
  15 But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" they were indignant
  16 and said to Him, "Do You hear what these are saying?" And Jesus said to them, "Yes. Have you never read, 'Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants You have perfected praise'?"
  17 Then He left them and went out of the city to Bethany, and He lodged there.
  Another:
  This is what the Lord Almighty says:
  “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord.
  They keep saying to those who despise me, ‘The Lord says: You will have peace.’ And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts they say, ‘No harm will come to you.’
  But which of them has stood in the council of the Lord to see or to hear his word? Who has listened and heard his word?
  See, the storm of the Lord will burst out in wrath, a whirlwind swirling down on the heads of the wicked.
  The anger of the Lord will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purposes of his heart. In days to come you will understand it clearly. I did not send these prophets, yet they have run with their message; I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied.
  But if they had stood in my council, they would have proclaimed my words to my people and would have turned them from their evil ways and from their evil deeds.
  “Am I only a God nearby,” declares the Lord, “and not a God far away? Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?” declares the Lord. “Do not I fill heaven and earth?” declares the Lord.
  “I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream!’ How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds? They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name, just as their fathers forgot my name through Baal worship. Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?” declares the Lord. “Is not my word like fire,” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces? “Therefore,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. Yes,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” declares the Lord. “They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the Lord.
  “When these people, or a prophet or a priest, ask you, ‘What is the oracle of the Lord?’ say to them, ‘What oracle? I will forsake you, declares the Lord.’ If a prophet or a priest or anyone else claims, ‘This is the oracle of the Lord,’ I will punish that man and his household. This is what each of you keeps on saying to his friend or relative: ‘What is the Lord’s answer?’ or ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ But you must not mention ‘the oracle of the Lord’ again, because every man’s own word becomes his oracle and so you distort the words of the living God, the Lord Almighty, our God. This is what you keep saying to a prophet: ‘What is the Lord’s answer to you?’ or ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ Although you claim, ‘This is the oracle of the Lord,’ this is what the Lord says: You used the words, ‘This is the oracle of the Lord,’ even though I told you that you must not claim, ‘This is the oracle of the Lord.’ Therefore, I will surely forget you and cast you out of my presence along with the city I gave to you and your fathers. I will bring upon you everlasting disgrace—everlasting shame that will not be forgotten.”
  (Jeremiah 31:9-40, NIV)

• Grimm said on Jan 20, 2009....

  A video I would like to share with you.
  

• starchini said on Jan 20, 2009....

  okay grimm but people these days dont actually sell anything in church, so you Mathew reference doesnt mean that people who are blessed are thieves.

  And the bit about the not listening to the prophets prophesizing...again, my quote came from God, not a profet, sooo that doesnt have much of anything to do with: "You will eat the fruit of your labor blessings and prosperity will be yours"  thats not a prophet speaking...

  But thank you for the scripture of the day : ) 

• starchini said on Jan 20, 2009....

  Watched the video...Funny how each and every father/priest/pastor is handed a beautiful home for free and a fancy car to drive.  You'd think they would turn that shit down so they can be closer to God by suffering the way that he did.  I havnt heard this guy before but i have heard this lecture before.  Of course not the same words but the same gyst.  I agree with his philosophy.  Its the entire basis for missionaries and the wives of God.  To live in poverty willingly, so they can suffer and truly appreciate the glory of God and his heaven.  God will smyte each and every one of us undeserving in the end time without us having to live our lives in poverty.  I refuse to believe that God wants us to live our lives on earth in misery and pain.  Heaven is so supremely glorious that no amount of happiness on earth could take heavens thunder away.  Earth cannot hold a candle to heaven.  The comparison is non existent.  I see no need to make Earth even worse.  I know what im expecting in heaven.  The second i start thinking "ya know, i think earth might be better than heaven"  Then i will start inflicting my own suffering.  Until then i will pray to God for my humble needs and he will bless me with the fruit of my labor and prosperity will be mine. 

  P.S.  Ill bet my life that lecture dude earns more moeny than me a year, id bet my life he drives a nicer car than me and did you notice his fancy new suit and haircut?  Hed be a lot more believable if he didnt look like such a hypocrit. 

• Grimm said on Jan 20, 2009....

  starchini,
  Again, I was speaking of the pastors, the teachers, not the congregation. (the matthew quote)
  And I was not talking about you with the Jeremiah quote, but those same teachers. I thought we were discussing prosperity teaching?
  I wasn't coming down on you! Why so defensive? I was enjoying having an intelligent debate with another christian. :)
  Well, a pastor or teacher deserves to be given a home and his living as a reward for this. The workman is worthy of his wages. The bible says this, but the apostles chose not to take it, but earn their living with their hands.
  I totally agree with you about some pastors taking it to extreme and growing fat and rich behind their ministry, though. That was my point. :) I don't know about the guy on the video, I just happened to run across it on youtube. Don't know enough about the guy to come to any conclusions about that... But I did agree with his message.
  I think we both might learn from taking the bible in context. (it's entirety)

• Grimm said on Jan 20, 2009....

  I looked again at the guy's suit and haircut...
  He dressed nice but so would you if you were in front of that many people.
  Would you rather he dressed in sackcloth and looked like a flower child? LOL :)

• nytquill17 said on Jan 21, 2009....

  Hey star: I think this post is more about your frustration than it is about god or the Bible, the same frustration everyone feels.  Whether they take their expectations from what god said or what the government said or even what our parents said, we're all looking around and thinking, okay, I worked hard...where's my stuff?  When is it my time?  Why are things not following the pattern and plan I was told they would follow?  I think I've been sold out here.  It has nothing to do with god, and even people who don't believe in god are feeling the same way.  It's just that for you, you've chosen this particular line from the bible to put your faith in, you took it at a very literal sense, and now it's not paying off like you thought it would.
  
  But...I can't resist getting a few words into a good argument! :)
  
  I think the point grimm was trying to make initially is that even though your quote comes from god, it can be misinterpreted by humans.  Maybe - in fact probably -  "fruits" and "labor" don't mean what you think they mean in this case.  I don't think it means "work hard at your job and you will prosper materially." 
  
  In fact the full quote, Psalms 128:1-2 says:
  Blessed are all who fear the Lord, who walk in his ways.  You will eat the fruit of your labor; blessings and prosperity will be yours.
  
  So the "labor" isn't talking about going to a job, or just any work you put your hands to.  The labor is fearing the Lord, is being a believer in other words.  That implies that believing in God is not something easy to do, it is "labor."  If you are missing the "fruit" bit perhaps you are missing the "walking in his ways" bit also, eh?
  
  And what would the fruits of that kind of labor actually be?  Would it be material blessings?  Or is it more likely to be blessings and prosperity of the heart and spirit?  Since we are talking about spiritual work rather than physical work, we are likely talking about spiritual fruit too.
  
  Only you (and god) can judge you and I'm not trying to, though I know I am coming across a little harsh right now.  I'm just making the argument that, if you have as a given fact that A leads to B, and you have no B then one of two things has happened: either you didn't really have "A" to start with, or you had the wrong idea of what "B" would be like.
  
  As far as expecting to have good things because you believe in god...didn't Jesus say that "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword?"  He out and out tells his followers to expect times to be hard BECAUSE they are his followers.  And he doesn't say "I'll bring a sword, but then afterwards you can settle down, have a nice farm or something."  He basically says, it's going to be hard and you might even die.  Now that doesn't mean necessarily that when things are going well you are straying, or that things have to be hard or you are not a good follower.  It's perfectly possible to prosper materially and still be a "true believer" and have your heart in the right place.
  
  But the truth is that most of the people that truly follow and don't just go through the motions DO have hard times.  The world is a hard place and all too ready to take advantage of good and generous hearts.  And even if you are not taken advantage of, there is so much need and hurt in the world that you can never give enough to fill it all.  Being a good Christian means always paying it forward and with no guarantee that anyone else will pay it forward to you (they are supposed to, yes, but you're only responsible for what you do with what YOU have).  Which means a lot of times you wind up empty.  Believing in god doesn't automatically mean that you are guaranteed good things in this life if you just pay your dues.  Sometimes it happens that way, but sometimes it doesn't either.  Plenty of the faithful people I knew growing up were still paying their dues well into middle and even old age.  God doesn't actually guarantee anything good will happen to you this side of heaven.
  
  Remember, Job was his most faithful servant.  And he got nothin'!
  

• starchini said on Jan 21, 2009....

  Ok Grimm, sorry i got defensive, i thought u were trying to tell me that in order to be close with God I have to be miserable and suffer.  I simply do not think so.  I agree we must endure whatever we are handed.  But i dont agree that all of us should purposely seek out suffering. 

  And NyQuil, i hate it when i start something and the people I start it with out wit me and i cant even keep up in my own conversation.  Thanks for giving me the entire quote, i agree with your interpretation.  And id like to add that i find the entire Job story incredibly depressing.

• nytquill17 said on Jan 21, 2009....

  Star: ugh, me too.  On both counts!  Taken in context it kind of seems odd that god would play games with his people like that.  Me personally I see the story of Job as more of an "explanation myth."  Like we all ask "why god why" when bad things happen...so someone made up a story about god and the devil having a bet as their way of explaining what was going on.  Like the story about the turtle who moves the earth, to explain why the stars move.  Job is in fact the oldest part of the bible so it stands to reason it comes from a more mythical time and a time when god in the Hebrew culture was a lot less defined so you could write him any way you wanted to.  By the time we get to Moses the writers are concerned with law and society and history and they start to define god's character more so now looking back Job's god seems out of character.
  
  Sorry if I got you down, hon.  My dad was a preacher and I heard a lot of debates growing up hehe...lot of hard times too and in the end the how or the why doesn't matter, hard is hard and we always wish for better (and usually deserve better too).
  
  Going back to your original point *BIG HUG* I'm sorry you're so frustrated and so exhausted.  I know you appreciate what you have and don't need to be told to...and everyone's entitled to wish for a little more, y'know?  Especially in hard times.  I hope you do get a little more coming to you.  That won't make it happen of course but I will hope for you :)
  

• Grimm said on Jan 21, 2009....

  Hey starchini,
  No problem. I'm glad we had this conversation. I think we both learned some things, which is GOOD!!!
  I think you are incredibly intelligent for your age, and at least you are thinking about God. When I was your age, He was the farthest thing from my mind. Good for you.
  Nyquil, thanks for your addition to the conversation. I will be subscribing to your blog. Starchini, I subscribed to yours too.
  ----------Grimm

• Grimm said on Jan 21, 2009....

  Ummm...nytquil; copying and pasting a comment you made here:
  Remember, Job was his most faithful servant. And he got nothin'!
  Didn't God bless him after his trial and give everything back that satan had taken, and more? :) Sorry, I couldn't resist:
  10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had before. 11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the LORD had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver [a] and a gold ring.
  12 The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job's daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers.
  16 After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so he died, old and full of years.

• starchini said on Jan 21, 2009....

  NyQuill you didnt get me down, Im just such an analytical person and the mere existence of the word "interpretation" irritates me.  Im very much a right and wrong kind of person.  This is why I havent read the bible.  So much of it is so vague and all of it has different meaning depending on who reads it.  I prefer to believe that God is on my side backing me up and casts no suffering on me whatsoever.  If bad things happen its because of me, not God.  In my eyes God is behind only the good, not the bad.  I believe their is a reason for everything. 

  Thank you Grimm.  I too think that you are an intelligient person.  : PI like to think that im pretty intelligient.  I certainly dont claim to know it all.  Obviously im not very well read when it comes to the bible.  I believe what my parents taught me.  Which was basically "If your a good person and pray and have faith in God, you'll go to heaven". Of course the definition of what a good person is depends on the morals of the person.  I like to think i have a pretty high standard of morals.  : P 

  As far as thinking about God.  Well, I grew up in church.  My parents laid down a very faith based foundation for me.  Every sunday was church and wednesdays were CCD classes.  I was baptized and confirmed.  However i lost a lot of interest in church and focused mostly on prayer and an at home practice.  Im trying to get back into the church thing.  I would like my son to have faith and I dont want to be a hypocrit. 

• nytquill17 said on Jan 21, 2009....

  Grimm, you got me there!  I overlooked the ending.  My point with the Job reference was that just being faithful is no guarantee that you will be prosperous or safe even if you have "paid your dues".  He did everything right and bad things still happened.  And god did not step in and fix it just because Job was a nice guy.  He did get it all back and then some, but that was never guaranteed either.  God never said "do everything I want you to and I will fix this for you."
  

• Grimm said on Jan 21, 2009....

  starchini,
  I didn't grow up in church like you did... My parents didn't go to church, so I didn't either. My mom was a believer back then, but my dad wasn't... Today my Dad has put his faith in Christ.
  Mainly, I went through a bunch of crap with my Mom dying and with drugs and bad relationships. God came to me when I was at my lowest, and believe me, made His presence felt.
  Then I backslid for a number of years, not with drugs, but I let my relationship with God fade away, and during that time, because I was dancing with the devil, my life went pretty smooth.
  Then, when I was in danger of losing my soul, he dragged me back out again when I finally repented. Again, He made his presence undoubtable. On that day I just cried for HOURS, I couldn't stop, with joy, and all that hurt and pain and confusion just drained out of me. Wow, I wish I lived in that spirit all the time. I mean, I know I do, but WOW, I mean, that day, just overflowing with Grace so much that I couldn't control myself... :) Nothing else mattered.
  Now, I'm back in the trials and tribulations again and I'm happy to see them, because I know I'm on the right track! LOL
  nytquill,
  I agree, just needling ya a little. LOL :)
  

• Grimm said on Jan 21, 2009....

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