• D6fer said on Jan 04, 2009....

  yep....that's torture.....is the U.S. using that exact technique? Because they should use waterboarding instead.....it's much quicker and is not torture....just effective.

• bloc said on Jan 04, 2009....

  please don't side track this conversation with waterboarding. It is torture and we've convicted japanese who waterboarded americans.
  

• bloc said on Jan 04, 2009....

  to answer your question, the CIA used this on someone in Iraq.

• beyondtheveil said on Jan 04, 2009....

  It definitely qualifies as torture. The bush administration would probably call the medieval 'rack' a stress position. 

• diabolicdame said on Jan 04, 2009....

  Looks like torture to me. Yes. I hate to think that huma beings.. or even animals.. are being put to that or worse!!

• andora said on Jan 04, 2009....

  ah - duh?
  
  si
  yes
  wi wi
  can
   
  shall we descend back into the dark ages? I guess we have only been separate from inhumanity on a superficial level after all. As the country that has led the call to human rights, we have become the worlds worst joke, descending into the pit of hypocrisy over and over again without fail. Now that the world has global communications, the US is seen for what it is: self-serving violent hypocrites that gorge themselves upon poison, despoiling the water that keeps us from plunging into the 3rd world misery that we all think we are so superior to.
  
  Yesss, I love the promise that a Republic such as ours holds up as our standard (freedom of speech, justice and liberty for all) yet am unwilling to applaud our efforts thus far.
  
  thanks for bringing this up bloc
  
  and yes D6 water-boarding is torture too
  

• Hegemone said on Jan 04, 2009....

  I'd say that's definitely torture.  That could cause so many physical injuries from the strain on the body.  Mentally enduring that excruciating pain and punishment has got to be unbearable.   I wouldn't doubt that if it were the case ... if this was done to somebody until they "talked" ... a lot of people would probably get to talking quickly enough.   Definitely torture.

• gingersoul said on Jan 04, 2009....

  Bloc......come on........this was a rhetoric question, right?...:-)
  
  Because, yes, it's torture. The Nazi uniform just add that historical patina but the reality is the same..
  And yes.......water-boarding is torture as well..
  I agree with BeyBey....probably they would call anything they use stress positions....
  

• Zayda said on Jan 04, 2009....

  Yes, it's torture.

• bloc said on Jan 04, 2009....

  @ginger
  I wish it were rhetorical, but stopmediabias keeps arguing with me that things like this are not torture. People often agree when it's spoken about in words with and euphemisms so I dug up a photo.
  
  Funny thing about the Nazis, they had a phrase they used for torture that was basically the same as "enhanced interrogation" and their justifications and legal memo's are almost identical to those of the Bush admin. You can read a little about it here.
  

• gingersoul said on Jan 04, 2009....

  Bloc.......thank you for the link....its interesting that the Nazi were defending the torture inflicted claiming that the practice was legal because their police was  not in uniform...
  
  As you said........a photo speaks loud than words...

• D6fer said on Jan 04, 2009....

  so any links to proof that the CIA used this exact form bloc?

• bloc said on Jan 05, 2009....

  @d6
  "The cause of his death was not generally known until February 17, 2005, when it was revealed that he had died after a fruitless half-hour interrogation, during which he was suspended from a barred window by his wrists, which were bound behind his back. News reports introduced the term "Palestinian hanging," a modern name for the strappado, a technique used since at least the sixteenth century."
  
  click here for the rest of the story.
  
  
  

• dyingman said on Jan 05, 2009....

  http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_12/016087.php
  
  It's all torture and it's beneath us as a nation.  And yet, it's even worse than we've been told.  It's not just evil, it's not effective.
  

• dyingman said on Jan 05, 2009....

  Wrong link.
  THIS is it:
  http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_12/016121.php
  
  Read it and be convinced to never let our nation sink so low again.
  

• D6fer said on Jan 05, 2009....

  In November 2003, Manadel al-Jamadi, a prisoner of the U.S., was killed during an interrogation session at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq in which the method was allegedly used on him.
   
  so.....allegations are facts now are they?

• bloc said on Jan 05, 2009....

  I'll let people read the accounts from first hand witnesses and decide for themselves.

• D6fer said on Jan 05, 2009....

  wikpedia?....hmmmm.....I used wikpedia once as a source and was told that it was not credible.....got anything else?

• kelly said on Jan 05, 2009....

  Clearly it's torture.  Clearly some here don't have a problem with torture.  Bush has been a lot like Nixon.  "If the president does it it's not illegal!"

• rupert7 said on Jan 05, 2009....

  I'm not American but I am with Kelly here!  

• quietone said on Jan 05, 2009....

  Yes it is torture.  Know the movie "Rendition"?  Is that torture? of course.

• jerusalem said on Jan 05, 2009....

  great post.

  thanks

• pusscat said on Jan 05, 2009....

  To be honest, it doesn't matter what country it's done in under what name for what means for what end.  The long and short of the question is yes, the type of restraint used in this image that you have posted here bloc is torture. 
  
  If ever you want a true, honest answer ask an innocent.  If this photo were shown to a 10 year old girl or boy they would say YES without 3 or 4 paragraphs of explanations or links.  Anything that causes 'great' stress to a body and mind is torture.  Wonder how long I'd remain silent hanging up there?
  
  Thanks for the post bloc.
  

• stopmediabias said on Jan 05, 2009....

  Of course its torture and nice of you to tell a big fat lie.  The guy in Iraq was not subjected to the Palestinian hanging you fucking know it.

  How the hell do you interogate someone hanging like that?  Plus there are 1900 different accounts of the story and the autopsy and I have yet to find one that says his shoulders were dislocated and even the photos of this guys bruised wrists are not even close to what would occur in a Palestinian hanging.

  I argue this subject, not because I give a shit about torture, but because I think it is a monumentally disgraceful to accuse your own men of attrocities when you are not absolute in your proof.  This crap cannot be proved in a court of law (if it could people would be in jail for committing acts of torture) but you seem to think some pinheads who have an axe to grind against our President must be a beacon of truthfullness.  Some day this will come back to bite you.  Some day some of the people you were in the military with will find out you've been doing this shit.

• pusscat said on Jan 05, 2009....

  I think what we need to see here is the original debate bloc between you and smb.  I am at a loss with the discussion that is ensueing.  My answer to the original question with the photograph is yes, that type of restraint is torture.  I then read smb shouting about someone's shoulders not being dislocated.  I can also say with all honesty (trust me you would be amazed what I know as a submissive into BDSM) that dislocation of the shoulders would not have to occur with this restraint.  In fact, full dislocation would be the easy, less painful option than the muscles and tendons fighting against it.
  
  In a nut shell, the photo is toruture.  I don't know about proof of whom is doing this to whom.  One thing I do know is, that unless one is actually at an event, no matter whether government led or not, we may never know the truth of an event.
  
  Please, bloc and smb, I am not taking either side with you here as I don't seem to have enough info from either of you to do that.  Torture is torture no matter who does it, but when it is done in the name of peace, that's when I get seriously pissed off.
  

• kelly said on Jan 06, 2009....

  pusscat, smb doesn't think the US has used this "technique"--or waterboarding either, for that matter.  I think perhaps he is the last person to not know this.

• pusscat said on Jan 06, 2009....

  Hi kelly - I realise that, maybe my comment came across one sided - I realise that smb is annoyed (to put it mildly) that there are many so called accounts detailing what Government lead agencies, troops etc, are alleged to have done.  That is what I meant when I said that, unless anyone is at an event, it is unwise to go on media reporting.  Media reporting is done for the good of whichever party is likely to be funding them.  If they are independent (gosh - a rarity these days) then their reports tend to be biased towards whoever the Editor votes for.  It has certainly been an interesting debate to read though.
  
  
  

• stopmediabias said on Jan 06, 2009....

  I'm not annoyed,  Bloc knows I worship the quicksand he walks on :>

  We were talking about torture in another post:

  http://www.soulcast.com/post/show/175247/the-creator-of-al-qaeda-is-our-government

  Bloc and I are on opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to this debate.  My side is simply:  Prove to me the United States government (in modern times) tortures people as a matter of policy.  No one can because it didn't happen.

  Kelly we have waterboarded three people and this is common knowledge, the actual debate is whether or not waterboarding is torture.  I do not believe it is torture, bloc does.

  I challenge anyone, go to the Frontline, PBS website on torture.

  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/

   Read the investigations and all the facts, not the headlines, but the actual truth.  We have scumbags in our military that have done some really terrible things but no where near in comparison to our enemies and certainly not torture.

• curmudgeon said on Jan 07, 2009....

  As to the photo - yeah torture.
  
  As to the allegations that the Bush Administration somehow approved, ordered or condoned this specific practice against a specific detainee, that's a hard one to swallow.
  
  The President and other folks in government have been told that aggressive interrogations include "stress positions" such as having prisoners stand for extended periods of time, stand in very confined spaces, or are denied sleep, or are subject to wet or cold, or a host of other measures. It seems to me that if the interrogators were to use the technique depicted above, no one higher than the operational level will want to know about that. Even if Bush did condone this technique, it would probably be very hard to prove that he personally OK'd it in whatever situation is alleged. This is all pretty lame argument anyway:
  
  http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123120464870255997.html
  
  You Bush-haters can accuse and malign him all you want, but there are Democrats - including just re-minted House Speaker Nancy Pelosi - and Republicans in Congress who knew exactly what was going on. Had the Dems truly disagreed with Bush's policies, they could have done something about it. But of course, we're talking about politicians who voted for the Iraq war before they spoke out against it.
  
  Criticism of Pelosi from liberals on this issue is deafening in its silence.
  

• bloc said on Jan 07, 2009....

  "As to the allegations that the Bush Administration somehow approved, ordered or condoned this specific practice against a specific detainee, that's a hard one to swallow."
  
  
  This is the bait and switch used to say that Bush isn't torture. The bush admin authorized stress positions and this is a stress position. It's that simple. Many of the people we know are evil torturers, like Hitler and Saddam, did not condone or order specific practices against specific people. They created general policies of torture that were carried out by lower level people. 
  
  
  "Even if Bush did condone this technique, it would probably be very hard to prove that he personally OK'd it in whatever situation is alleged."
  
  
  Again, this is a bait and switch that is irrelevant. 
  
  
  "Had the Dems truly disagreed with Bush's policies, they could have done something about it. But of course, we're talking about politicians who voted for the Iraq war before they spoke out against it."
  
  
  I agree with you here, but the implication that because the Dem's didn't speak up that it's ok to torture is a non sequitur. I haven't been silent on this, I've specifically railed against Diane Feinstein on this issue numerous times. However, the people that did the deed of authorizing torture bear more responsibility than those who looked the other way while it happened.

• D6fer said on Jan 07, 2009....

  talk about bait and switch!.....you are saying because the Bush administration authorized stress positions that they authorized that stress position....that is simply unproven and therefore bullshit.

• kelly said on Jan 07, 2009....

  "As to the allegations that the Bush Administration somehow approved, ordered or condoned this specific practice against a specific detainee, that's a hard one to swallow."
  
  
  No it's not.  Cheney announced to the world that the US would be walking "in the shadows" from now on.  What happened on the Bush/Cheney watch is because of Bush/Cheney, not one or two lackeys way down the chain.  The tone is set at the top.  To believe otherwise is to believe that Bush/Cheney were powerless leaders that had no idea what was going on.

• stopmediabias said on Jan 07, 2009....

  Bloc-To me we are swimming in lunacy here.  Look at that picture you posted.  Does it make any sense to inflict catastrophic pain on someone you are trying to get information from? 

  Kelly-You can thank your pals Bill Clinton and Robert Torricelli who brought on the monumentally stupid Torricelli principle that said we can't get intelligence information from unsavory people.  Cheney was alluding to how we had to rebuild our intelligence community after this tore it down. 

  The bait and switch here is bloc trying to twist this conversation away from the actual definition of torture.  First we have to prove the actual torture happened then we have to determine who was responsible. 

  If our leadership just will-nilly ordered people to be tortured or was this lawless evil group of bastards then why did Rumsfeld disallow certain all ready authorized interogation techniques?

  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/paper/cron.html

  "Rumsfeld disallows the use of the Category II and one Category III techniques he had previously approved on Dec. 2. Anyone who wants to use those techniques must request approval from Rumsfeld himself."

  How many times have we heard our leadership state we don't torture?  We tried to impeach a President for lying about a BJ, it says a lot about the whole of our government if we allow a President to lie about torture. 

• PieterOpie said on Jan 07, 2009....

  The methods employed by the Republicans both at home and abroad are almost indistinguishable from those of the Nazis.  They used the same methods to win the elections using fear as the main factor to cause the ignorant to support them and used repeated lies in a constant barrage to destroy the enemies reputation; the enemy being the Democrats.  We all know the methods they used on suspects during the war and we also know the orders came from the top, namely Rumsfeld.  He even reminded me of Hitler how he ran the war rejectng all military advice at the cost of American lives.  Those people are war criminals. Period.  Bush and his gangsters all belong in jail. If this is what the Republican party has become then they should be prevented from ever holding power again.  That whole Iraq war is a massive disaster for the USA.  It has not done Iraq any good either.  I am pissed off that our Prime Minister was stupid enough to get us involved (Australia).  Our new PM is finally getting us out of that shit later this year.  When torture becomes common practice you need to ask who the terrorists really are.
  
  Will you let Bush and his thugs get away with it?  That is what I want to know.
  

• stopmediabias said on Jan 07, 2009....

  PO-I'd like to be the first to welcome you here to Soulcast :)

  With that said you are moron, you should stick to Australian politics.  I won't ask you to even remotely prove the garbage you spew because I all ready know you can't.

   

• PieterOpie said on Jan 07, 2009....

  Stopmediabias,  Your chosen name says a lot about your disgust with the truth you right wing facist numbskull.  You can't dismiss me and tell me to mind my own business since this is not your forum you obnoxious loud-mouthed lying scumfaced Nazi bastrad.  May I suggest you go fuck yourself annd shove your oppinion up your oft fucked asshole you reptilian brained deadshit.  I can say whatever I want and since I only speak the truth I don't need to verify that which is already common knowledge and accepted fact. 
  
  You may try to be the bully and flood the thread with your crap but it does not wash away what everybody knows.  The Republicans are evil pricks and the world's greatest threat to human survival.  You are exactly the same as Nazis except you don't dress as well as they did you fuckwit!!!  Who are you anyway, Karl Rove.... evil genius and Hitlers greatest admirer?   You and your sadistic friends are out of favour and you need to accept defeat, loser features.
  Your nasty, mean little boys club of dirty little manipulators who were all spoiled by your rich mothers and mollested by your inept fathers have produced a gang of ultra cruel and "entitled" world dominator wannabees who do nasty filthy things just to get power and then behave like barbarians to stay there.  It worked in 2004.... not this time.  Your time has been and gone.
  
  Pack up your "how to hurt puppies" and pull your head in and go fondle your mates back in the play dungeon you share - where you meet in the nude and have your sick jollies tormenting small animals and pulling the wings off sparrows.   I loath your kind as do all normal decent thinking people.  I speak for the majority when I hope you just die.... yep - drop dead fucker.... you and your gang of thugs, the neo-cons - the neo NAZIS.  bugger off.
  

• PieterOpie said on Jan 07, 2009....

  Please forgive typos and mistakes.  I get so excited.....  hehe

• bloc said on Jan 07, 2009....

  @pusscat
  To put it simply, the person we're talking about died while being interrogated. That says a lot about the severity of the interrogation doesn't it?
  I'll pose a simple question to my neocon friends, what did Cheney mean when he said we would walk on the darkside and then authorized stress positions, induced hypothermia, and other techniques that have always been called torture when done to Americans?

• PieterOpie said on Jan 07, 2009....

  ugh..... Cheney.  He has got to be the world's most evil man so filled with hatred and putrid loathing for anything not exactly like himself.  I hope a solar flare will interfere with his pacemaker and fry the Satanic lizard from the inside-out.  You only need to look at his ugly big evil head to know what he is capable of.  But just like the original Nazis he is too pathetic to do his own dirty work.  He and his kind treat soldiers like disposable cannon fodder.  Life is expendable to them. The man has no soul.... only that shrivelled up black heart stained with the death of innumerable human lives.
  
  I wish I was better at expressing my disgust with those people.............  hehe
  

• curmudgeon said on Jan 07, 2009....

  PO - you're the one full of hate for others. I just hope you realize that someday. If you're really from Australia, I suppose you ought to also hate yourself for your government's going along with Bush / Cheney on so many things.
  
  bloc - it seems to me you're attempting to conflate a quote with condoning a particular interrogation practice.  You're free to draw any conclusion you like, but to me this amounts to little but unproven conjecture.
  
  I just hope you're ready to denounce Obama when allegations of rough interrogations surface during his administration. He already sees how difficult it will be to extricate us from Iraq as he promised during his campaign, and the problems shutting down Guantanamo pose. Personally I think he's enough of a realist to see that if harsh interrogations yield valuable information, it would be folly to discard them.
  
  This whole post is a little funny because you visually attempt to tie a Nazi-era photo to the outgoing administration. If what you say is true, why not dig up a real photo?
  

• PieterOpie said on Jan 08, 2009....

  I do resent that Australian CONSERVATIVE government for getting involved and playing up to Bush.  John Howard's nose still has shit on it.  The vast majority of Aussies feel the same by the way.  We now have a normal reasonable government who are not the lap-dog of the Republicans.  Conservatives are terrible for any country and its people.  They are always in it for selfish reasons and to pander to capitalists. You are soooooo heavily in debt thanks to your conservatives who have been terrific for the oil sharks and Cheney's chums at Halliburton.  They are the ONLY ones to have benefitted from this con. 
  
  And as for me being a hater.... Yes.  I hate Nazis and Republicans.  With a passion.  You have had a string of their presidents and all they did was rule using fear of enemies all over the place while they looted and plundered their way around the globe creating resentment and loathing for America which culminated in 9/11.   I am often asstonished it never happened sooner.  They wanted to but this was just the first time they succeeded.  Those criminals are not the only people who want to see the end of American tyranny.  Your governemnt is hated by people all over the world.  Saying they are just jealous like Bush did demonstrates how out of touch you (your gov.) are. The republicans know exactly how to manipulate the average American and play with their patriotism and use them for their own ends.  You have a lot of ignorant rednecks who fall for their facist shit like bees to nectar.  It resembles Nazi propaganda to the letter.  They too said if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes a fact in the minds of the masses.  Isn't it obvious by the state of health care alone how Republicans don't care one tiny bit about the human individual.  They brand anything that helps ordinary people as socialist which is a word grossly misunderstood in your country.  They prefer to assist big business exploit the people. 
  
  Who is a government meant to serve anyway?  The people or the comapanies?
  
  Since your dubious beginnings the rich have run government to serve them and their exploits.  The people have never been a consideration but due to an iflated view of "freedom and democracy" you have been duped the entire time.  To speak out against it is forbidden..... not by law but by public oppinion.  I remind you of the Dixie Chicks and what happened when they exercised their right to speak up.  They were hounded like the witches from Salem or something.  No respect.  That is one brainwashed community....
  
  It is shameful how the Republicans use troops....  living beings... in their pursuits to serve big business.  The people have never benefitted.  They have been allowed to work hard and buy the crap from the capitalists.  Crap that breaks down and needs replacing.  They don't even sell you decently made junk. 
  
  I see Walmart as the perfect American comapny.  They employ people and pay them just enough to survive on and spend any excess cash in their stores.  They give them credit and that ammounts to bonded slavery.  Perfect.  Those people have to work to be able to exist so they can continue to work....blah blah blah......
  
  Yep.  I hate conservatives everywhere.  They are the enemy of the people.
  
  
  They're also  an ugly bunch of warped and perverted hypocrites and thugs who hide behind Jesus.  I despise them.
  
  
  

• D6fer said on Jan 08, 2009....

  oh goodie! another liberal.....just when I thought we were running out.....oh joy.
   
  You spout off about bonded slavery.....ever give any consideration to a government that gives just enough away to keep people poor and lazy? Are you familiar with the American Welfare system?
   
  Democrats are a joke......biggest hypocrits when it comes to taking care of people.......conservatives far outgive liberals to charities.....liberals just use campaign promises of giving away other peoples wealth to get elected.
   
  Be careful of what you wish for suckers......you will soon get it!

• PieterOpie said on Jan 08, 2009....

  Your democrats are the lesser of two evils, so to speak.  America lacks choice when it comes to party politics but they are nowhere near as insane as some of the lunatic neo-nazis you have produced.  Even within the Repub. Party the Bush gang of hawkish neo-nazis were known as "the crazies" because of their insane ideas.  There is nobody quite that warped in the Dems. 
  
  As far as me being a liberal. Not so.  I am a socialist.... one that leans to the left.... way left.  I believe I would be shot on sight in your country.  
  
  That does not alter the fact that Bush and his criminal pals have not exactly helped the people and as it turns out their agenda of war at the expense of everything else has not exactly helped big business either.   You are not only broke - you are soooooo in debt.  NO... worse than that even.
  
  The last Dem. president left with the budget in surplus.  A big one.   
  
  No more American Dream..... POOOOOFFF!!!!!  
  
  
  

• PieterOpie said on Jan 08, 2009....

  In a nation where politicians get away with lying about everything and are never vigorously challenged by the press then the people are never fully informed of the truth which means that any election is based on incorrect information, relying entirely on the so-called reputaions of the opposing parties.  That is farcical. That is not democracy.  It means whoever can lie more convincingly wins and democracy is as good as dead.   In my opinion that has been the case in America for a very long time now.
  
  Both sides accuse the media of bias but who does the media really serve?  I don't believe that all super wealthy media moguls are entirely pure of heart with the preservation of true democracy as their guiding star.  My guess is that IF there is any bias in media then it would favour the conservatives.  When you consider that and the media still gives the conservatives an apparently hard time with sticky questions and embarrassing probes then you can imagine how bad things must really be.
  
  It has taken a long time for journalists to regain some element of confidence since 9/11.  They lived in total fear after that.  Bush intimidated the media painting anyone with the big brush of treachery who did not tow the line.  That too is as good as Nazism.  No government should ever be able to sway the press in a healthy democracy.  It is outrageous.
  
  BTW... I find it amusing that the word "liberal" is used like a dirty word nby some.  It means free.  Isn't that what America is supposed to be?  Why is it that anyone who is too different to the norm gets attacked so vehemently in your country?  You call this a free country?  I don't.  It is a very hostile and oppressive place for some minorities. 
  
  Perhaps you need to redefine what you mean by free and democratic. Better still you need to reestablish those basic qualities.  LIVE AND LET LIVE!!!!
  
  
  

• D6fer said on Jan 08, 2009....

  I was actually in agreement with you until you said that the media favors the conservatives....that is laughable....I am not sure how much exposure you have to the American media, but I can assure you they are largely left......and admittingly so (polls of journalists)
  Yes liberal is a dirty word in this country....proof of that is in the fact that liberals  try to call themselves other things like "progressives" or even "centrists"
  If it is so great to be liberal, why not embrace it? I mean you even have enough balls to call yourself a socialist .... I can respect that.....I think your beliefs are wrong......but at least your honest about it.

• D6fer said on Jan 08, 2009....

  danm it! SoulCast ate half of my comment!

  Personally, I would like to see a complete overhaul of our government. Every politician ran out of office and many of them (both parties) incarcerated for crimes against the people of the U.S.

  Just curous.....which minorities do you think are oppressed and

• D6fer said on Jan 08, 2009....

  hey soulcast.....fix this shit!
   
  the last sentence was:

  Just curous.....which minorities do you think are oppressed and Amerca is hostile to?

   

   

• bloc said on Jan 08, 2009....

  "I was actually in agreement with you until you said that the media favors the conservatives....that is laughable....I am not sure how much exposure you have to the American media, but I can assure you they are largely left......and admittingly so (polls of journalists)"
  
  
  This depends on what one means by liberal. If one means tolerant of gay people then yes, the media is liberal. If one means economics then the media is center right. 
  
  
  "Yes liberal is a dirty word in this country"
  
  
  Yup, that's why the republicans were thrown out of office after trying very hard to use every liberal label they could think of. The american people seemed to prefer the "socialist" obama to the republican McCain. 

• PieterOpie said on Jan 08, 2009....

  D6fer:   Bush is messing up your comments.  They are the ones who have been wiretapping and spying on you.  Perhaps they are hurriedly pulling out all the wires and hidden bugs before Obama finds them all.  hehehe.... 
  I wonder if there will be any memorandums left unshredded.  It is illegal to destroy those memos...  Cheney went crazy and pulped and shredded any and all evidence against them.  Cowards.  Sneaky cowards.  If they believe they are in the right then why hide their paper trails?
  
  I do not reject the description of liberal.  I am extremely liberal. I just don't think being liberal should be a political flavour.  It is the nation that is either liberal in its mind set or not.    I was born in one of the world's most accepting and liberal societies - the Netherlands.  Australia where I live is not bad either.  In a truly free country nobody ought to feel as though they are not wanted or hated just for being different.  That is oppression and breeds nastiness where it is completely unnecessary. 
  
  I can't believe that some stupid idiots in California are actually going to all that trouble to reverse the gay marriage laws.  That is ridiculous.  Those people need to mind their own sordid affairs. 
  
  America has grabbed hold of a golden opportunity to regain some sense.  I hope it isn't wasted or negated later by a conservative party that belongs in an era of the distant past.  
  
  Bush claimed "I am a uniter, not a divider".... LOL.... 
  Obama is such a uniter.  The entire nation should support him with zeal. There are hard times ahead.  Your economy is far from out of the danger zone.  In fact a second wave of the same may be on the way.  More defaults are expected;  even more than before.  Good luck to us all.
  

• PieterOpie said on Jan 08, 2009....

  OOPS.... did not intend BOLD for that last post.....  sorry.  Not shouting....  :)

• D6fer said on Jan 08, 2009....

  Did he run as a"socialist"? ....no......I seem to remember him using the words "tax cuts" quite a bit.
  McCain was  not our guy.......no one could ever convince me that rank and file dems did not push him in the primaries.
  The Democrats are blatant and brazen cheaters......I do think that Obama won beyond the margin of fraud......but McCain was handpicked as his opponent.....Stuart Smalley stole Minnesota and gave the Dems total power.
   

• stopmediabias said on Jan 08, 2009....

  PO-Typical mindless liberal talking points.  You are bells and whistles with all talk and not much else.

  I love the comparison of Nazis and Conservatives, especially after Bill Clinton's little stunts in Waco and Ruby Ridge.

  Lets look at some notable quotes:

   "The Republicans are evil pricks and the world's greatest threat to human survival."

  Who was the first President to use nuclear weapons?  And exactly how many times have we been attacked under 8 years of President Bush?

  "Your nasty, mean little boys club of dirty little manipulators who were all spoiled by your rich mothers and mollested by your inept fathers have produced a gang of ultra cruel and "entitled" world dominator wannabees who do nasty filthy things just to get power and then behave like barbarians to stay there."

  You might want to change that IV drip, your medicine is starting to run out.

  Bugger off?  Now thats funny!  A gay Australian guy telling someone to bugger off.  This guy is killing me.  It would be better if we could hear the accent.

  I call you a moron and you go on this rampage and bring up everything from Karl Rove to Cheney to the Nazis, good God man breath!  The only thing you did was prove my one main point:  You are a moron.

• stopmediabias said on Jan 08, 2009....

  PO-Typical mindless liberal talking points.  You are bells and whistles with all talk and not much else.

  I love the comparison of Nazis and Conservatives, especially after Bill Clinton's little stunts in Waco and Ruby Ridge.

  Lets look at some notable quotes:

   "The Republicans are evil pricks and the world's greatest threat to human survival."

  Who was the first President to use nuclear weapons?  And exactly how many times have we been attacked under 8 years of President Bush?

  "Your nasty, mean little boys club of dirty little manipulators who were all spoiled by your rich mothers and mollested by your inept fathers have produced a gang of ultra cruel and "entitled" world dominator wannabees who do nasty filthy things just to get power and then behave like barbarians to stay there."

  You might want to change that IV drip, your medicine is starting to run out.

  Bugger off?  Now thats funny!  A gay Australian guy telling someone to bugger off.  This guy is killing me.  It would be better if we could hear the accent.

  I call you a moron and you go on this rampage and bring up everything from Karl Rove to Cheney to the Nazis, good God man breath!  The only thing you did was prove my one main point:  You are a moron.

• PieterOpie said on Jan 08, 2009....

  you're repeating yourself you deadbeat.

• PieterOpie said on Jan 08, 2009....

  BTW... you were attacked at least 4000 times under Bush.  He sent young Americans to Iraq where it was much easier for the terrorists to find victims.
  
  Dipshit.
  

• stopmediabias said on Jan 08, 2009....

  Dipshit (not a very positive way to sign off)

  How about you cut the bull and back up at least half of the garbage you spouted out earlier.  Like the Republican policies that are indistinguishable from the Nazis.

  Or how about this little gem:

  "It has taken a long time for journalists to regain some element of confidence since 9/11.  They lived in total fear after that.  Bush intimidated the media painting anyone with the big brush of treachery who did not tow the line.  That too is as good as Nazism.  No government should ever be able to sway the press in a healthy democracy.  It is outrageous."

  So along with torturing people he also intimidated the media?

  Sean?  Where the hell is Sean when we need him?
  

• PieterOpie said on Jan 08, 2009....

  I was thinking of stepping it up. Not cutting it back. 
  
  Karl Rove must be one of the Nazis best students.  The way the neocons conducted their campaigns and slaughtered the reputation of their opponent using emotive bullshit, fear of some common enemy, and pure lies fabricated to destroy the confidence of the people in the other party is exactly what the Nazis did in the good old days of fascism.   Was it Himler who said that "the masses" will believe anything if you repeat it often enough?  The Bush campaign was repeatitve and dishonest in excess and was repeated ad nauseum.
  
  I was very let down that a counter attack and a vigorous policy of debunking the bullshit never eventuated.  Obama was much more on top of that kind of thing.  He was not going to be denied the truth. Even then many people still believed he was a muslim for christsake!!!!  That stick insect, Ann Coulter; dried up queen of facsism and uber-right-wing nut insists on calling Obama Hussein Obama instead of Barack Obama.  She still does it as if to attempt to sway an electorate that made up its mind ages ago.  What a nasty creepy overdue abortion that witch is.  YECH!!!!   She proves there is no god all by herself.  Any god would squash it underfoot..... as he would so many idiots in the Repub. party or support it.  Voting for them is immoral. Period.  It says you think lying, cheating, murder and torture of innocents is perfectly fine with you.  What kind of person votes for them?  How can anyone like that live with themselves?  I'd kill myself if I was a republican.  It is the only right thing to do. 
  
  May I commend it to YOU.  You Nazi loving facsist pricked fuckwit.  MORON!!!!
  

• D6fer said on Jan 09, 2009....

  p.o......you are a kernel of corn in a socialist dungheap....bright, yet still shit. Unlike you I don't hate my opposition....just kind of feel sorry for them....what a miserable existence! Obama is a big boy....I think he can take the game...he won....what amazes me is how so many liberals are still trying to bury Palin.....the election was over a moth ago and they are still trying to drag her through the mud.

  I think enslaving people with laziness is evil

  forcing one person to take care of another is slavery and thereby evil.

  Democrats are stealing America.....they have no scruples.

  They have been corrupting our youth and stealing their innocence for decades

  encouraging dangerous activities and passing them off as an "alternative" lifestyle....all uner the pollitically correct umberella.

  You mentioned before that you were from the Netherlands......you spoke of it as if it were a better place than this....I guess people there are pretty proud of having the worlds highest taxes, alcoholism, and suicide rates......sounds like a great plan for the rest of the world.....why don't you go 1st!

• PieterOpie said on Jan 09, 2009....

  Lies, all lies.  You are just like your heroes.  I do not hate my opposition, I hate Nazis and Republican fascists.  Please be precise in this.  We do not have many of that kind of people in Australia and therefore I harbour no hatred of any such opposition.  As for Palin and what anyone does to her is no concern of mine unless they fail in their quest.  The woman is mad and dangerous.  She must never ever be allowed to set foot on the mainland again.  I shall hope some moose impails her and nibbles her to death. Imagine her as president.  It is a classic nightare situation out of science fiction.  The world might sponteneously explode in an ironic act of self defence.   I shudder at the very idea.  I pity Alaska or wherever she hails from. 
  
  The woman has made teen pregnancy popular again while at the same time made it impossible for women who have been raped impossibe to get any justice and naturally impossible to abort any resulting child.  She is a monster.  She must be eliminated for the sake of humanity.  Why can you not see this you fool? 
  Socialism.... obviously you like most americans do not understand it nor have the mental capacity to do so as demonstrated by your silly little phrases and assumptions about it making lazy people....  Complete ignorance
  
  The Netherlands is a fair society.  I did not say it was perfect.  It is however still infinitely better than the USA.  Since you love statistics and I have NEVER heard those snippets of info.... I can state that the USA is the ONLY developed nation that still murders prisoners by means of execution.  No civilized nation does this barbaric thing. The USA has more people in prison per capita than any other nation.  It is only second to China in executions per capita.  The Netherlands has the LEAST prisoners and does not murder anybody.  They do not insanely imprison human beings for victimless crimes like you do. 
  The Dutch invented and  developed capitalism and banking. America screwed up both so that we are all in the shit now.  Thanks....... (heavily sarcastic)
  
  There are so many choice statistics about America so there is little interest in playing that stupid game since you always come out stinking like spew....
  But you know... I am not here to defend Holland or even Australia.....  I am here to attack the Republicans - NOT America nor its normal level-headed citizens (except Repub. supporter scum filth shit crap scum scummmm). 
  
  I used to chant "Death to America" but now that there is a tiny weeny light on the distant horizon I gracfully pull back and focus on the root of all the woes and problems in the USA, namely the Republican Party and its misfit perverse greedy corrupt cruel warped dictatorial insane depraived (etc etc.∞ ∞ ∞) members. 
  
  Phew.... how exhausting. 
  
  SO shut your face you.... you...... Oh fuck it....  BLEHHHHH!!!!
  

• D6fer said on Jan 09, 2009....

  The problem with the U.S. prison system is that they don't kill violent criminals fast enough! And they are far too soft on the rest of the criminals.....they should be living in tents.
  Does the netherlands have millions of foreigners wanting to move there every year? hmmmm.....must not be that great.
  Over run with radical muslims last I heard......they need more people like Geert Wilders.
   

• PieterOpie said on Jan 09, 2009....

  Spoken like a true Republican.  Bully for you!!!
  
  Sorry, The Netherlands is now off-topic.  Please continue attacking the Neo-Nazi Party of the USA  a.k.a.  The Republican Party.  
  
  The vilest bunch of despots, war criminals and thugs on earth today.... with the possible exception of Putin and his pals.  They are just awful people.  Terrible.
  
  But they don't pretend to be nice.  You lot do.  
  
  May a million grasshoppers crawl up your ass and eat you from the inside-out.
  

• PieterOpie said on Jan 09, 2009....

  I am rapidly growing bored here.... can I deride you in another thread perhaps?
  
  I may be back.... may be not.  I dunno really.   I am flighty and easily distracted.
  
  One more time..........  DIPSTICK!!!!!!!!    hehehehehe
  

• PieterOpie said on Jan 09, 2009....

  Re:  D6fer's Lies:  CORRECTION
  
  Please note that the insane stats. posted by him/her/it about the Netherlands, although not of particular concern to me, are never the less completely incorrect and purposely misleading.  He/she is a dirty rotten filthy liar and will go to hell with all the other republicans.
  
  These are the correct statistics:
  
  
  HIGHEST TAXES:  recently was Sweden, now is Denmark.
  
  HIGHEST SUICIDE RATE:  Japan and China.
  
  HIGHEST ALCOHOLISM:  France.  Others N.Korea, Russia
  
  
  That is all.  Thank you.
  

• D6fer said on Jan 10, 2009....

  hmmmmm....maybe I should have researched that a bit further....my bad....you are right...things are great in the Netherlands.....let's seeeee...
   
  Bottom tax rate is 33.65%  top is 52% Wow! that's really low! I wan't to move there already!

  Approximately 9 percent of all Dutch people older than 15 are problem drinkers.....well now!.....sounds like a great place to party!

  OK ok.....I was off on the suicide one.....I got them confused with Denmark (The happiest place on Earth)

   

   

• D6fer said on Jan 10, 2009....

  now....lets move on to your allegations that the Republicans are Nazis......I was unaware that the Republicans were systematically eliminating a race of people.....wait.....you do believe the Holocaust happened right?.......You know...that whole thing with the concentration camps, gas chambers, and ovens?......that happened right?......can you provide us with a link to a credible piece of evidence that equates the Bush administration's actions to that kind of activity?.....no?.....Well then go fuck yourself!

• bloc said on Jan 10, 2009....

  I've been to the netherlands, it's a very nice place. 

• D6fer said on Jan 10, 2009....

  sure....nice place to visit.....but I wouldn't want to live there!

• bloc said on Jan 10, 2009....

  Most of europe is very nice, to live as well. I've lived in Germany.

• PieterOpie said on Jan 11, 2009....

  D6... You really are an idiot.  I won't bother embarrassing you by comparing statistic in all kinds of areas in which you come out looking extremely bad.  It is too extensive.  Your society is in dire straights and to put it in simple terms - it is sick and in desperate trouble.  The current crisis which your bankers created due to idiotic regulations has not helped any of us, least of all you and your sick nation.
  
  Obama has got a massive job  on his hands.  It is so bad I doubt that he or anyone can fix it completely - if at all.  For you to sit there and make stupid remarks about Holland or anyone else is hardly productive.
  
  You might look inward and pick at your own policies and find out whay all this has happened.  You are incapable of accepting the basic truth that america has failed and it is mainly due to those greed arrogant neo-cons.  I don't really care what you do to amuse yourself as your ship sinks.  I just hope you hang on so you'll go down with it you wanker.  Loser.....  
  

• D6fer said on Jan 11, 2009....

  P.O.   ....you might want to lay off the crack pipe....it has effected your ability to think.....yes we do have qute a mess here....and the neo-cons definately deserve their fair share of it, but if yhou think they are solely to blame, then you are a bigger fucking moron than I 1st thought......of course the American economy is a subject that debate never seems to solve around here....so why bother.

  Why is it America's role to take care of your sorry ass economically anyway?

• PieterOpie said on Jan 12, 2009....

  Why do your kind always use that crack pipe routine?  Is it funny to you?  It does not detract from my statements.  Save it for your friends.
  It is because we took care of our own economy that Australia has thus far avoided going into a recession - unlike you.  We regulate our market so that Republican gangsters cannot exploit it for greed and power to the extent that it can completely collapse. However all economies are interdependent.... (and you call me a moron-??? SHEEESH) so anyway.... we like everyone got caught up when your bubble started to deflate.  Now you have to swallow some socialisation of your industry like it or not.  Too bad. That's the way it goes.  Obviously your leaders should have been watching the store but instead everybody was touching the cash register and now there is no money.... all under the nose of Bush.  He lied his way out a couple of years ago when the first signs showed.  He lied to the people right up until the whole thing fell apart.  You say that is good government.......   Yeah great!!!   Meanwhile the ordinary people of america are in crisis and losing homes, jobs, lifestyles and nothing can stop or prevent that.  Not even Obama.  Naturally if he does not manage to rescue the mess he got from Bush they will undoubtedly find a way of blaming him.  That has been the pattern fro as long as I can remember.
  
  Has anyone asked how Halliburton is doing?  Or the oil giants?  or any of the profiteers who "helped win" the war in Iraq?  I bet they are all doing fine as are all of their buddies.
  
  As long as you allow criminals to run the place this will continue until they have it all and the people have nothing.  
  
  and you approve of this.....
  
  Perhaps it you who has been smoking too much crack.
  

• bloc said on Jan 12, 2009....

  Here is some more information on our use of this technique. The linked story is worth a full read as well.
  
  "
  

  The first 10 days of Mohamed’s detention, at Landi prison, near Karachi, were not, on his account, comfortable, but he was not tortured or abused. But after he was moved to a Pakistani security jail, around April 20, he began to be abused. A few days later, when he was questioned for the first time by U.S. agents, his treatment worsened dramatically.

  “They seemed to think I was some kind of top al-Qaeda person,” Mohamed said. “How? It was less than six months since I converted to Islam, and before that I was using drugs!” After the Americans’ visit, Mohamed said, he was hung by his wrists for hours on end, so that his feet barely touched the ground. Suspended thus, he said, he was beaten regularly by Pakistani guards. He said he was also threatened with a gun." source
  

• TinSoldier said on Jan 20, 2009....

  The technique in the photo that you posted is undoubtedly torture. In fact, even though I am not religious, it is uncomfortably close to crucifixion to me.
  
  
  That is not a stress position. Not by any definition of the term known by millions of American military veterans.
  
  
  If this activity was authorized and carried out then the perpetrators and authorizers at all levels should be prosecuted.

• bloc said on Jan 20, 2009....

  It is a stress position, otherwise what is a stress position?

• TinSoldier said on Jan 20, 2009....

  You've been in the miltary. You know what a stress position is. It isn't this.
  
  
  It's the front and leaning rest position; it's holding an item at arms length for as long as you can do so; it's any one of a number of standing or sitting positions which are uncomfortable but are not physically harmful.
  
  
  None of these criteria apply to what is pictured.

• PieterOpie said on Jan 21, 2009....

  The picture depicts torture.  Period.  Debate is unnecessary.  The method shown is agonising.  Agony equals torture.
  
  
  

• bloc said on Jan 21, 2009....

  @tin
  
  Do you believe that Bush's authorization of stress positions meant things like push ups?
  
  If we used this position but didn't completely lift the person off hte ground; instead we made it so that when the captive reached muscle failure they were essentially supporting their weight with the stress to their shoulders, would that be more extreme than your definition of a stress position?
  

• D6fer said on Jan 21, 2009....

  hypothetical torture bloc? Should we have a hypothetical trial for President Bush?

• PieterOpie said on Jan 21, 2009....

  You know what's torture?  The splitting of hairs and the perplexing semantics antics in this endless thread. I can't stand it anymore... I give up. I'll tell you everything you want to know - But NOT here....
  
  GOODBYE!!!     (groan) 
  
  What a pain / discomfort / stress / torture IN THE ASS!!!!!    %$#@&(%?>+@#!!!!!
  

• TinSoldier said on Jan 21, 2009....

  Yeah, what Pieter said. bloc, you're being intellectually dishonest. Again.

• bloc said on Jan 22, 2009....

  How am I being intellectually dishonest. If you're going to insult my integrity then you have to back it up. 

• bloc said on Jan 22, 2009....

  Here is a picture of a prisoner in US custody in this position. Here are some of the techniques the Bush admin specifically authorized that you see in this picture.
  
  
  1. forced nudity
  2. sexual humiliation
  3. stress positions
  

  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  Here is a picture of a prisoner who died while being interrogated in this same position.
  
  
  
  
  Please, tell me how I'm being intellectually dishonest.

• TinSoldier said on Jan 22, 2009....

  You're being intellectually dishonest because I'm agreeing with you and yet you still want to fight.

• D6fer said on Jan 22, 2009....

  uh....the guys feet in the original picture are not on the ground....the ones in the 2nd picture are.....that is way different....don't believe me.....have someone tie you up in the 2nd position 1st and then in the 1st position.....about 1 second into the 2nd experience, you will clearly know the difference.....yes....you are being dishonest......you could have used the 2nd picture to make your post.

• PieterOpie said on Jan 22, 2009....

  I offer a solution to whatever friction remains in the finicky argument that the debate has turned into.  I will hang both of you from the rafters as shown in the first picture (courtesy of the Nazis) and elevate you well above the ground so that your feet can neither support you or your argument and leave you there until both of you agree that if it hurts and damages a human being PHYSICALLY OR EMOTIONALLY then it is torture. 
  
  I will also beat you now and then for the sheer pleasure of it because I'm a little kinky that way as undoubtedly many torturers would have to be to do such work.  I deserve a bit of fun.......  (hehehehehehehehehe...)
  
  Once your shoulders have been popped back into place and that is conditional on your cooperation, I will continue to stare and point at your shrivelled up little penises as I laugh hysterically and prepare some stinky underwear to be worn by you on your faces.  All this will be accompanied by a mixture of loud music consisting of Barry Manilo and amateur opera and me inflicting some hideous chinese burns and extreme butt pinching.
  
  If either of you dies I promise it will be because of the first part of my treatment and not the follow-up humiliation.  I am not saying that it is OK to point at your meagre genitalia and treat you badly.  I think that too is torture.  Both are torture but the first is extreme and deadly. 
  
  BUT BOTH ARE TORTUROUS.  BOTH ARE DISGUSTING.  BOTH ARE IMMORAL.  BOTH SHOULD BE BANNED. 
  
  If you still refuse to agree, kiss and make up I will get rough......  
  
  Out come the sex toys, small animals, step-ladders, kitchen implements, cameras and paying guests. 
  
  IS THAT UNDERSTOOD?   (and say "sir" when you answer me)...... 
  
  
  SNNNAARRRRRRRRLLLLLL.............................
  
  
  So.... when shall we begin.  I am peachy keen....... 
  

• bloc said on Jan 22, 2009....

  @tin
  "You're being intellectually dishonest because I'm agreeing with you and yet you still want to fight."
  
  Hehe, i don't think that word means what you think it means ;) I didn't realize you were agreeing with me so I wasn't being intellectually dishonest. When you said the picture wasn't a stress position I wasn't sure if you meant that Bush didn't authorize such things so I asked to clarify, not to pick a fight.
  
  @d6
  It's a difference of degree, not a difference of kind. Have someone tie you in the second position and leave you there for 24 hours and see if you think it's torture. Nude, cold, with underwear on your head. Your legs will eventually give out and you will be supporting your weight in the same way as the top image.
  
  I also noticed that you choose not to talk about the second photo, of the person we tortured to death.
  

• TinSoldier said on Jan 22, 2009....

  Yes, bloc, you're right. I was angry at you this morning and a little this afternoon. I was trying to agree with you and you still seemed to be digging at me.
  
  
  So yeah, I could have used a better term. But I'm surprised that you didn't realize that I was agreeing with you given our previous discussions on the topic of torture.
  
  
  You do tend to frustrate me and get my dander up sometimes, but most of the time prudence prevents me from posting. This is just a topic which I care about almost as much as you do.
  
  
  As for the other two photos: I've seen the second. I thought there were questions about the man's death (an Iraqi general, right?) and that they prosecuted the perpetrators. As for the first photo, I have a problem believing that outside of Abu Ghraib that the man was in US custody.
  
  
  Anything to back those two up?
  
  
  PieterOpie: Who the heck are you talking to when you say "the both of you"? If you are including me then I suggest you read some of the blogs and comments which I have written here with regards to torture. You wanna get rough? Let's roll.
  
  
  And I don't call no one "sir" unless they are commissioned officers serving in the military of the US or allied nations.

• TinSoldier said on Jan 22, 2009....

  Oh, and I do mean that "Bush didn't authorize such things". Or at least that the term "stress position" does not include what was depicted in your first photograph.
  
  
  And that if anyone in the US thought that "stress position" included that then they are wrong, and that if anyone at any level of government authorized such treatment then they should be tried and convicted of war crimes.

• bloc said on Jan 22, 2009....

  Yes, Bush should be tried and convicted of war crimes. Induced hypothermia, which Bush authorized, is no doubt torture.
  
  "As for the first photo, I have a problem believing that outside of Abu Ghraib that the man was in US custody."
  
  The fascinating thing is that the stuff at abu ghraib followed teh authorized techniques to a T, yet many want to beleive that it was an aberration. We know have a military judge who reviewed a gitmo case saying that it was torture. Bush clearly authorized tortured and it was clearly done at multiple places.
  
  You say you agree with me, then you say things that make it seem that you don't believe that Bush authorized torture. This is why I asked you earlier what you thougth the Bush admin meant by stress positions.
  

• TinSoldier said on Jan 22, 2009....

  I agree with you that your original post depicted torture. I do not agree that Bush and Co. authorized those techniques. I do not agree that Abu Ghraib was authorized. I do not agree that the torture you depicted in your original post is a "stress position".

• bloc said on Jan 22, 2009....

  Here is a report of the same technique used at gitmo
  
  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25218584/wid/21370087/page/2/
  

• D6fer said on Jan 22, 2009....

  bloc the photo of the dead guy remains to be proven that he died from being tortured.
   
  The 2nd position gives the recipient the opportunity to save himself....the 1st does not........plus there is no indication of how long the man was made to stand there....again....all reports on the subject are debatable.

• bloc said on Jan 22, 2009....

  @tin
  do you beileve that induced hypothermia is torture?
  
  @d6
  so we should at least assign a prosecutor to find out these things?
  

• D6fer said on Jan 22, 2009....

  no

• PieterOpie said on Jan 22, 2009....

  OK.... fine.  "both of you" refers to whichever of you lot are still torturing this debate.  I scan - I don't really read.  That is too much work.  You two are just going back and forth anyway.  
  
  You should call me sir.... you never know who I might be.  Why take chances?
  
  Now....  do I have to buy you guys dinner first or can I string you guys up now.  I a getting impatient and a little horny.   Which one of you wants to wear the mask?
  
  Alright.... don't squirm....  HOLD STILL DAMMIT!!!!! 
  
  LOOK!!!  If you don't want me to tie you up and hang you up just say so.  There is no need to lead me on like this.
  
  hummphffff...... I'm leaving.  YOU ARE NO FUN ANYMORE!!!!!
  

• PieterOpie said on Jan 22, 2009....

  NO...... DON'T TRY TO STOP ME!!!!
  
  I'm leaving.  Too bad for YOU!!!!!   
  

• bloc said on Jan 22, 2009....

  Sometimes I wish SC had threaded comments which would allow two people to go back and forth a ton without forcing other people to wade through it. This is one of those cases.
  
  The reason I go back and forth so much is that I'm endlessly fascinated with the logic used by other people. It's a weird fascination of mine, and someone like tin is a perfect subject ;) He's perfect because he's honest, many people that argue politics aren't honest; like alienated. d6 is another honest one; I'm not sure about smb, I haven't figured him out yet.
  

• PieterOpie said on Jan 22, 2009....

  Hi Bloc..... wanna fool around with ropes and leather?   Hoochy cootchy cooooo....
  
  I'll be gentle - or not.  you choose..... hehehehehehehehehe (drool).......
  

• stopmediabias said on Jan 23, 2009....

  Bloc-   All you want to do is type the words Bush administration then add story from some liberal publication that claims torture. 

  Even that stupid MSNBC story states prisoners (based on doctors examinations!) were "suspended for hours" hours!  Could anyone survive hanging for hours if it was like above?  Or could it be one of these detainees tossed shit on a guard and they chained him to a wall like they do in every prison in the our country.

  And still not one single military person have been convicted or even charged with torture after a zillion investigations.

• D6fer said on Jan 23, 2009....

  I just wanted to be your 100th comment....so what did I win? ;p

• PieterOpie said on Jan 23, 2009....

   ME!!!   Woooo Hooooo!!!!   Let's go!!  

• D6fer said on Jan 23, 2009....

  Back off Doris Gay.....I'm taken.....annnnnd straight. ;p

• PieterOpie said on Jan 23, 2009....

  Ahhh the agony of it all....  the pain.... 
  
  indeed the torture of unrequited love.
  
  Woe is me.  Woe is my heart's desire. 
  
  Love's arrow pierced this sorry dove.
  
  ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
  
  
  
  Does this mean we won't be going to the ball tonight?  What am I going to do with 134 meters of crushed velvet and 2 dozen feather boas? 
  I'm so mad I could just spit!!!    SMELLING SALTS!!!  Bring me my salts!!!!!   <swoon>
  
  
  
  Doris Day?   Where?   Get me her autograph.....  please, some one.....
  

• human said on Oct 03, 2009....

  The "Strappado" has been considered and used as torture for thousands of years as has water boarding. Using a different vocabulary to refer to these methods does not magically render them any less inhumane. Didn't the Nazis have Specialists in Terminology to find pseudo legal expressions for torture, execution and extermination? (rhetorical question because of course they did). Calling concentration camps "Places of Relocation" did not aquite any Nazi Criminals at Neuremburg so should not render anyone of the Bush administration any less guilty. I was once tortured by being tied on my back to a table while water infiltrated with chilies was forced into my sinus cavities via rubber tubing. Pain that only increases with time, does not stop and goes on for hours with no way of knowing when they would stop. Scarring that has remained for more than 30 years that still causes me pain and health problems. In Africa I observed prisoners being submitted to the strappado. They were tied into chairs so their bodies were never completely suspended in the air but the pain and resulting permanent injuries were a terrible thing to see and hear. What one must understand is that the men at the top of positions of power who allow or order these torture techniques are also the men who make decisions about the education, healthcare and futures of our children. I do not want torturers deciding anything for any child!

• stopmediabias said on Oct 04, 2009....

  Human-Nobody was tortured by the Bush Administration as matter of policy or non-policy.  If you would like to give it a shot go ahead, please, I challenge you to provide any single bit of reasonable proof that shows this happened.

  Even after all you have been through which beyond what any of us could imagine shouldn't you of all people be more inclined to look at all the evidence and make an honest assessment before you accuse someone of being the same as the people who committed these acts against you?  With the people being accused our men and woman in uniform and our public servants, people who put their lives on the line for us.

• bloc said on Oct 04, 2009....

  waterboarding is toture, Bush authorized waterboarding, therefore the Bush Admin tortured as a matter of policy 

• stopmediabias said on Oct 05, 2009....

  #1-The technique outlined to our enemies in the memo released by your President is not torture and you know it.  It does not rise to the level of causing extreme pain and suffering.  
   
  #2-The Democrats agreed with waterboarding and were concerned as to its ability to gain intelligence so you might as well erase the Bush/Cheney torture regime nonsense.  If you are going to try an accuse your own people of torture you are going to have to do it to your side as well.
   
  #3-You and every other person who screams about torture claim over and over torture does not work in gaining valueable intelligence.  It is documented our enchanced interrogation methods gained lifesaving intelligence therefore they were not torture. 

• humane said on Oct 05, 2009....

  I can't believe the two dimensional thinking I keep reading here. The real questions should be about the law, exceptions to law and the inevitable downfall into totalitarianism that has always resulted when exceptions are permitted. There was a time when Americans would die to defend another man's right to act and think as he wished even when defending people they completely disagreed with. Every American should stand up and fight to protect a Muslim's rights regardless of what they think of Muslims....this is the way Americans have traditionally acted. Exceptions to law are "Un-American". When the first exception is allowed others will follow until there are no laws. When the first targeted group of people are allowed to be persecuted there will soon be other groups followed by society en masse. Torture is illegal. Those who torture are criminals. Criminals must be arrested and prosecuted. THIS IS THE LAW! Why do we even discuss the right or wrong of the Bush Administrations use of torture?

• bloc said on Oct 05, 2009....

  "The technique outlined to our enemies in the memo released by your President is not torture and you know it.  It does not rise to the level of causing extreme pain and suffering."
  
  
  We waterboarded one person 183 times in a month. This is surely extreme. 

• stopmediabias said on Oct 06, 2009....

  humane-Save it!  Find proof of actual torture or stop making the accusation.

  Bloc-You are stating waterboarding is torture could someone survive being tortured 183 times?!  It was183 drops of water and know it because we have been through this before. 

• humane said on Oct 06, 2009....

  Cheney has openly discussed the use of waterboarding thus admitting it was used. Ergo....I don't get your point.

• bloc said on Oct 06, 2009....

  yes, someone could survived being tortured 183 times just as someone could survive being raped 183 times. Rape is torture isn't it? 
  
  
  Btw, if you are suggesting that Bush's tactics for keeping us safe is to use an eye dropper to lay 183 light tickles of water on someone's nose then you are either admitting the utter incompetence of Bush or you realize that what you are saying isn't true. 

• CFA said 12 days ago....

  Hmmm. Seems like people here are trying to prove "their" point. It is easy to say "show me proof" and then shut up. It is Easy to repeat what you have heard and shut up. It is not easy to discuss with facts and respect for opposing views I would propose the following points. 1. The purpose of interrogation it to gather information that a person is unwilling to share (purpose, not how it is actually used) 2. That to make a person divulge information that they are unwilling to disclose you have to make them want something more than they want to keep the secret. (money, lack of pain, privacy, debate until they relent, etc) 3. If there was "publicly available solid evidence" that our previous administration committed acts that can be defined as criminal they would be being prosecuted or interrogated themselves. 4. This has not been not a group of people trying to resolve anything, it is a place for people to vent frustrations and rage. with that said... Tell me that you would not be willing to have someone tortured if you "KNEW" that they possessed the information that would save your life but were unwilling to give it. (honestly) Tell me that you would not do everything in your power to prosecute anyone who had performed torture on you or a loved one. Pride is the bane of truth. War is hell, don't like it, don't do it.

• stopmediabias said 11 days ago....

  See bloc the problem here is you have painted yourself into a corner and created a paradox.  Is the waterboarding 183 times the way you saying it, true?  I can't be because of the restrictions on the use of the procedure.  The people performing this procedure were limited to 12 minutes per 24 hour day with 2 sessions per day of up to two hours.  Plus technically torture is extreme pain and suffering and no someone doesn't survive extreme pain and suffering 183 separate times and become and informant for the good guys (Kalid Sheik Mohammed). 

  Either the memo where the 183 times comes from is completely false or completely true.  It makes more sense that it is 183 drops of water. 

  Eyedropper?  Rape?  What is wrong with you? 

  And you are just emotionally incapable of admitting that Bush interrogation tactics probably saved your life and specifically saved a lot of other lives.

  CFA-Bloc and I have history. 

• CFA said 11 days ago....

  SMB - If I was not observant enough to see that I should not be posting my opinions...
  
  Again, My question is "Is the purpose of this discussion to reach an understanding of the truth and reality of a situation, or to 'prove you are wrong and I am right'"
  
  I really could care less about people personal issues, but folks this is a serious topic involving REALITY, not some theoretical mental masturbation about the nuances of the human language and the edge of the definition of an act.
  
  People are angry with the US and their perceptions of who and what we are.
  
  Soldiers are humans and have emotions and feelings which take them beyond the ROE (Rules of Engagement)
  
  Soldiers are taught to disregard "THAT" persons rights while defending THIS persons rights.  In the field the definition of THIS and THAT becomes very very personal.
  
  Kill 200 people and win and you are a hero
  Kill 200 people and lose and you are a villein
  
  Torture a man and get the info to save YOUR side and your a hero...
  
  

• stopmediabias said 7 days ago....

  CFA-I'm right and bloc is wrong because bloc from day one has never been able to reasonably prove the propaganda he barfs out. 

  Here is the truth:

  #1-George W. Bush won in 2000.

  These nutcases never ever got over that so every single thing they could overblow, turn into propaganda, and spew out to innocent and naive Americans they did and nothing strikes a nerve like torture.

  #2-The United States government under GW did not have a policy of torture, did not torture anyone, no-one working under the American flag as part of policy or non-policy committed an act of torture.  In order to make this statement I spent an enormous amount of time trying to find just one single act of real torture at the hands of Americans during the Bush presidency and did not succeed and as a matter of fact only strengthened my side of the debate.

  #3-We send our volunteers off to terrible places and when they do their job we accuse them of committing atrocites.  We should all be ashamed.

• CFA said 6 days ago....

  Ok, So it IS about personal ego. this will probably be my last post here then. 1. The argument about the election has NO functional connection to the issue discussed. The accuracy of the election does NOT effect the definition of torture. 2. The obvious "actual" debate here is the difference between what "policy" was versus what "actions" were. You could both be 100% correct in that it MIGHT be that while there was a public policy in place the behavior was not in line with it. It could be that like many corporate companies there is a "public stance" and a "private set of actions" which are not in sync. 3. We have many reasons to be ashamed, name calling is one of the least. Good luck with your argument (both of you)

• stopmediabias said 5 days ago....

  Can you read?  I am starting to think you can't.

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