• seer said on Nov 29, 2008....

  Get a grip.

  My ex girlfriend had an abortion. I was a recovering drug addict and a child myself.

  Life isn't always the best option.

  Fuckin dogmatised bible thumper.

   

  And besides, you go up to someone paralized and tell them you are against stem cell research, look into their eyes, and consider your opinion.

   

  Its conservative, dogmatised views like this that make America second world.

• seer said on Nov 29, 2008....

  Oh yeah, even though I don't agree with anything you say, or stand for, I have subscribed to your post purely to disagree with you. Hopefully you won't ban me and we can have a discussion about theology.

  And apologies for the above post being written angrily in haste. Its an issue which still hurts me.

• anonymous said on Nov 30, 2008....

  I  respect you for your reasonable and intelligent approach to open debate and welcome your contribution to this blog as a positive asset on a controversial subject. 
       My title is designed to be provacative and, sometimes, extreme in its viewpoint as a lure for people to express their opinion however strong or however worded. 
       In my stance I do not consider the death of children an acceptible means of achieving the healing of someone who is paralyzed.  The child is the one that the adult should be willing to sacrifice his own life, if worse comes to worst.  This is why, on a sinking ship, women and children go onto the lifeboats first.  We do not treat our children.  To suggest that we should use other human beings for medical experiments is to do what the Germans did in WWII and the Japanese did with Project 731.
         In both instances human beings were exposed to disease, gangrene, frozen limbs and all sorts of injuries for the doctors and even students to study.  Using our preborn sons and daughters is just another iteration of something we, as Americans, have long condemned the Nazis and Japanese for doing.
        Currently the North Koreans will kill every child that is born with any imperfection and/or is half Chinese.  This is just another version of your idea that unwanted babies can be killed at will or used for medical experimentation.  History has already made the judgment that this is a war crime and an atrocity that can not be tolerated by civilized people. 
          Herein is the contradiction.  We, as a people, do not practice what we preach and make excuses for what we do, using the same logic that those whom we condemn used when they did it.
         You seem logical and strongly emotional.  You must evaluate your position to see if it is consistent to believe we should sacrifice a life for medical experimentation, especially one that is so tender.
        
         The Lethal Label
          They called us "savages".  Our tribes were slaughtered.
          They called us "slaves."   We were sold, bought and bartered.
          They said I was a "crass infidel."  A Catholic, a Jew, foredoomed all to hell.
          THey said I was Irish.  We died by the masses.
           They said we were not Arian and killed us with gasses.
            Now we are "Fetus" and "prochoice" they sing.
             They must be stopped for it's all the same thing.
   
              Question:  If we aborted a dog fetus the way we abort our own human children, wouldn't PETA give a strong outcry?  It was PETA who was responsible for the first laws concerning children's rights.  In one famous case there was a child being horribly abused by his parents.  The law could not intercede until some citizen called in the cheif of PETA to declare the child to be an animal and therefore the beaten and tortured child came under the laws of animal protection.
          Read my book "Numan" (on this site free of charge.)  It will describe what happens when people are allowed to be called "nonhuman" and more and more "unwanted people" are allowed to be put into that category of "numan, nonhuman."
         I thank you for your response and I am strangely satisfied that I got an emotional response from you.  We all have to be riled up about this subject otherwise it won't be discussed.

• seer said on Nov 30, 2008....

  Excellent. Its absalutely fantastic to speak to a Christian who dosn't threaten me with dammnation for me views. Its also a pleasure to meet a Christian who has actually read the Bible and thought about things. You, my friend, are a minority, unfortunately. But we arn't on theology, we're on abortion.
   
  Firstly, I'd like to guess that you are from a middle/upper middle class white American background. I currently live on the outskirts of a very poor district, maybe where my views come from?
   
  At school, there were 'bad kids', kids that did drugs and had no real future. A lot like their parents. Now when I go drinking, I sometimes bump into one or two of them, they haven't changed, scarred now from broken glass, doing cocaine and getting kicked out of places. Just like their parents used to.
   
  On my way to work each day I see countless teenage parents. I know the kind of lifestyles those kids will be born into. Its a huge socialogical problem.
   
  I'm not saying its impossible to break out from the lifestyle you were born into, but its very uncommon for someone to change themselfs from the lifestyle they were dogmatised to think they are 'stuck' into.
   
  I live in England, where we have the Benefit system, which is similar to American 'welfare'. Now if you're unemployed/single parent/disabled or just generally lazy then the government will give you a weekly allowance. Its not a lot, to be honest, and its not exactly easy to get either. However, I do know girls from one channel or another that are trying to get pregnant by anyone so they can give up work!
   
  Anyway, I digress.
   
  If a single young woman gets pregnant unexpectedly in Britain, she has two choices, one of which is abortion. She will usually either live off benefits, unless her parents are wealthy or her sexual partner does what is believed to be the 'right' thing.
   
  Living off benefits would put her in the council-flat area I live next to, or similar. The child would be born and grow up in a world of knife crime, car theft, drugs, prosititution and violence. Growing up, I became involved in drugs, at sixteen I was getting most my income through dealing cannabis in various forms. This gave me an interesting insight into the afore-mentioned world - I knew people that had guns!!
   
  I honestly believe being born into a single-parent council-flat lifestlye is usually a chain in a cycle, which many children cannot escape.
   
  Should we give people the option to termiate pregnancy and end the chain?
   
  Much as I do think its a little sick, yes, we have to look at the country as a whole. And Carl, you have to allow yourself to think that maybe life isn't always the best option for unborn babies.
   
  And if you think that there is an abortion in America every 40 seconds, that's nearly 8 MILLION (if my calculations are correct, which they probably arnt). Now how much burden would that put on your welfare system? (I'm really over-generalising here) How many potential little car theives and murders is that?
   
  If I may just tell you about my own experience of abortion.
   
  I had recently turned 17. The time is a little blurry. I was still very much recovering from smoking an inordinate amount of cannabis for about a year. My mind was a mess. Like a goldfish bowl of hyperactive goldfish, not really cognative processes, it just felt like my mind was disorganised and slow.
   
  I was staying round a girl's house after her birthday party. Her parents told me they didn't want anything to happen under their roof. I'd always had protected sex up until then. I thought if I didn't have condoms, then no sex for me. But I was drunk. Trying to blot out my warped mind's cravings for cannabis. I was so drunk it felt like a dream the next day.
   
  She told me it would be ok, and I assumed she'd just go take the morning after pill, or was having the injection or something. To be honest, at 17 with an erection after that much vodka you don't think straight.
   
  So we had un protected sex. I forgot about it. She forgot about it. Until she missed her period.
   
  She went scatty and suddently avoided me. Her friend had to tell me she was pregnant in a pub, before I went to a family dinner. I drank half a bottle of whisky right there and then, and smoked 20 cigarettes to boot. My whole life changed that day.
   
  She started saying she was going to keep it. It would be ok, I could quit college and join the army or become a builder or something. She'd become a stay-home mum and get a council flat and claim benefits.
   
  It was like that, in a breath my life was layed out before me by someone I was starting to get irritated with.
   
  What I did next is disgusting. I decided that it would be best for the child not to be born. I knew he or she would wind up a pot-smoking thug like I was, and I'd be trapped in the lifestyle I was trying to escape. And that Britain would be better without the three of us as a burden. I decided to get that baby aborted at any cost.
   
  I bullied and threatened her into it. I felt literally no emotions at all for three months. It was as if whatever I considered to be my soul had died. All I felt was relief that the abortion was done. For the first time in an eternity I slept. My future was free again. And I turned my back and carried on.
   
  The girl and I got back together.
   
  Then it hit home. And I cried. I'm crying as I type now. I felt sick. I could not believe what a psychopathic monster I had become, what I had to be.
   
  And we swore to each other that we would do good. With our lives. No matter what. She went into special needs care work, and I was already studying in outdoor recreation. I helped disadvantaged kids mostly, gave them self confience and told them they could be what they wanted, no matter what their parents and teachers said. I taught climbing and canoing mostly, but I also did quad biking, kayaking, walking, high ropes, team building, fencing and archery at some point. I worked wherever I felt I would be of most benefit. This often meant I earnt £50 a week. Training in this career lead to an injury which re-opened while teaching kayaking, which is why I have lost a lot of movement in my left arm, and my left shoulder is made of plasic.
   
  So I retired, aged 21, to learn to become a driving instructor, and try and make the roads safer.
   
   
   
  I know its a long comment, Carl, but I felt it needed to be said.
   
  Its easy to talk about abortion when you haven't been through it.

• WriterCarlDobbs said on Dec 01, 2008....

  My friend, I was born to a poor family, the 5th of the litter of 5.  My wife was the last of 8.  My mother was one of 11.  I suppose any of us could have been aborted. 

        Look at Gerald Ford and the Television Icon Art Linkletter.  They were abandoned and adopted.  Examine all the children who were left and abandoned by their parents who grew up to  be very successful and changed the world for the better.

   There is a #1 best selling novel called "Manchild in the Promised Land" about a person who grew up with drugs, in the Harlem ghetto.  He gets put into reform school and has a terrible life.  He grows up and writes this book on how he overcame that.  His book became a best seller.

  Abraham Lincoln was dirt poor and had to educate himself.  The list goes on and on how people overcome the worst of conditions.

  I had such a terrible childhood I suffered and still suffer from chronic depression and suicidal tendencies. (I was in a body cast for 2 years from the time I was 7 to 9 and rarely left my sick bed).  I suffered extremely powerful seizures because my subconscious blocked off the memories of my early childhood.  These seizures were violent and frequent and disabled me for about 10 years from the time I was 38 until I was about 48.  During these years I worked to run my businsess inbetween seizures.  I studied to become a computer programmer with books from the library and succeeded in the practice and am now a 12 year veterin of computer programming earning $50/hr.  I persevered through a bankruptcy because my son had epilepsy.  I had to divorse my wife so the government would pay for his medicine.  She moved away to Kansas while I struggled to support them from Maryland.  After 15 years of separation she died suddenly 2 years ago to the day of this writing.

  In other words, don't think that trial and tribulation and an evil hard beginning has anything to do with how someone will later turn out and how well he will do in life.  I have a hard luck story that I could have used to fail.  I have had suicidal tendencies for the severe depression I've had since childhood but I have never hurt myself.  I always got free counseling from the county and medicine.

       Therefore hard luck does not stop people from ultimately acheiving.  It is an excuse, not a reason to fail.

       Rememer Helen Keller, blind and deaf from and early age, got her college degree and toured the world as an inspirational speaker.

       No.  We must not prejudge our unborn.  Let them succeed in spite of their bad circumstances.  It has happened before and will again.

        God will bless you for your good works.  I, also, have adopted a child and fosterd another child for 15 years.  I was a member of Big Brothers of America and have filled my life with useful works despite my trials and tribulations.  That is what being born in a terrible situation does.

• seer said on Dec 05, 2008....

  Carl, I have read your post and I find it fascinating. However, my opions still disagree. At the moment, I'm far to tired to write a decent arguement, so I'll leave it til when I have energy! Just didn't want you thinking I'd lost interest

• seer said on Dec 07, 2008....

  UItimately a small percentage of children from depraved backgrounds will go on to better things. However this isn't always the case.
   
  Have you read 'The People's Act Of Love'? Its about revolutionaries. I'm going to steal from this book, but I can't remember the passage word for word so I'll give you the general concept - 'Revolutionaries are destruction. They destroy the way things are so that they can be rebuilt better. Sometimes revolutionaries must kill or destroy a building. From the blankness that revolutionaries create, new can build.
   
  Its like a flood or forest fire, purging the dead wood so new trees can grow.
   
  We must not hate the revolutionary in the same way we must not hate the forest fire or the flood.'
   
  I think abortion is like that.
   
  Sometimes things that are bad have to be done for the greater good.
   
   

• sadsack said on Apr 03, 2009....

  In my opinion life, any life, especially human life is precious. I cannot understand how an unborn child can be killed  brutally and just discarded while it is murder to kill a child after birth.
   At what point does  a 'thing' that can be killed turn into a human child?
  Above all I think its horrific that a mother who is supposed to protect and nurture her child is the one who takes its life instead.
  My second child was conceived barely 11 months after my first was born, at a time when we were going through great financial hardship. Both my mother-in-law and my husband pressurized me to abort the child, but I stood my ground and refused to do it. I could not have lived with myself if I had agreed to it. I went through tremendous suffering which I'll never forget because of the pressure on me. I looked after my kids single handedly and no one helped me after my son was born either.
  But today my son is my pride and joy. He's fifteen, intelligent, creative and loving.
  And very precious to my husband as well...I remind my husband sometimes that if it had not been for me, my child would not exist today...
  
  

• seer said on Apr 05, 2009....

  I just wanted to tell you guys that your views are screwing up the world, and I'm getting another Anti-christian tattoo, a pentogram with 666 on it.

• sadsack said on Apr 09, 2009....

  Seer, to each his own, but I think what is screwing up the world is selfishness and materialism. When all we want is sensual pleasure forgetting that there are more sublime things to seek in life then,well, life is bound to get screwed up.

• seer said on Apr 11, 2009....

  Sadsack, I agree with you to an extend. BUT none of us are monks, in the real world. And in the real world, its a lesser of two evils. But my problem is with dobbs is that he is using anti-abortion propoganda and ranting and raving an awful lot, so that's why I'm attacking back, its like trying to argue with a donkey!

• sadsack said on Apr 19, 2009....

  Seer, glad to know you agree partially with me. I know we're none of us monks, but I disagree with you when you say abortion is the lesser of two evils.
  Come on, there are enough methods of contraception these days so you don't need to conceive an unwanted child. In the case of a child conceived through rape or even an unborn child with health problems, the choice is very difficult, BUT Murder is not an option according to me. There are enough people who want children, but cannot bear them....and wonderful people like some nuns, who care for the handicapped. So even if the mother or father is unable to look after the child, there are surely people who will love and care for it. So please don't advocate killing someone who is utterly helpless.
  As for writercarldobbs, I really don't know much, but this post caught my eye.

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