• secretlife said on Aug 21, 2006....

  Interesting read YBNB - not sure I am totally convinced, but it certainly is food for thought. It's just a little paranoid to believe Society is out to break me before I even begin...
  
  I believe in introspection as a route to self discovery. And I'm with you that we aren't trained in our educations to think. The rest I'm not so sure of-
  

• yeahbutnobut said on Aug 21, 2006....

  It's food for thought, and all that the word "thought" implies. It's something you eat, which takes moments, but digestion takes a long, long, time.
  
  Society has one priority for all it's members, making them fit in. Society does not care if you realize your individuality or not. If you discover your gifts and delivers them. Society does not care if you become blissfully happy or not. Society does not care if you find your mode of self-expression or not. Society only wants that you do not rock the boat. Specificially, capalistic society only cares that we become responsible tax-payers and consumers. We could be automatons, but society will never form a department to see that as problem and solve it. If you fall of the workforce train, society may have tools to get you back up and tuck you back in.
  
  And to do that, it works to break our wills, shape us into sheep, and it even can make us feel we are breaking out, but that to is within it's "acceptable limits".
  
  The killer point is most of this goes on below the level of conscious awareness, and so while we can open the topic in a blog, that can be read in mere moments, the actual process of becoming aware and living in that place of heightened awareness, that is a lifetime of endeavor.
  
  Peck alluded to this when he called his outstanding book, "The Road Less Traveled." That book was truly a gift that came through him.
  
  But in my experience, Fromm did the best job of unpacking the concepts and making them clear and accessible in several of his works, most notably, Escape from Freedom, Psychoanalysis and Religion, The Art of Loving, and The Sane Society. Anyone of these lays out the case pretty well. Rollo May has a good book on this as well.
  Man's Search for Himself. These are not just food, SL, they are feasts, lavis banquets for thought.
  
  Another author who is very accessible and addressing these themes was Ernest Becker, who won a Pulitser for his "The Denial of Death." Good stuff, that. It's a work interpreting Kierkegarrd and Otto Rank. Thinking peeps have been addressing this for quite some time.
  

• Frlncwrtr said on Aug 21, 2006....

  Good one yeahbutnobut! I think you're onto something.
  By the way, thanks for the comments you left on planeturanus’ site!
  I am leaning toward a true novel. You’re right, they are great!
  

• madstorm said on Aug 22, 2006....

  Another excellent post yeahbutnobut... as you know, you're 'preaching to the converted' with me. I've seen the conditioning of punishment and reward in my 3 year old niece, she wants to please her parents, she is rewarded when she does what she is told and punished when she doesn't... she is being taught social conformity and unless she is made aware that she can think for herself she will just become another automaton in the grinding machine of life.
  

• lidstrom82 said on Aug 22, 2006....

  This discussion outlines a possible strength of religion: if a child is raised in faith and not in traditions and rules, they can transcend and rise above their society's messages and media's values, because they recognize a higher power and purer, more noble message. That way they aren't victims of their culture, so they're much less likely to be "programmed", and much less likely to judge others for being "programmed", for that matter.
  

• madstorm said on Aug 22, 2006....

  Forgive me lidstrom82... I don't know if yeahbutnobut agrees but religion is EXACTLY the kind of "complicated process of indoctrination, rewards, punishments, and fitting ideology" Erich Fromm was talking about isn't it? Any religion (and I'm not picking on yours lidstrom82) is a system of punishment and reward that thwarts free thinking... the concept of heaven or hell is a threat. How can anyone think freely when they are threatened??
  
  How can you 'raise a child in faith'? faith IS tradition and rules, nor can you teach anyone to 'recognise a higher power'... you MUST let them think for themselves...
  

• missfickle said on Aug 22, 2006....

  YBNB, very very deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
  
  Ants have social order, they do not I dont think have religion, they do not have wars, they just work hard, they work for the good of the whole and they survive. Maybe our intellect is our downfall??????????????
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• yeahbutnobut said on Aug 23, 2006....

  Agree with you Madstorm. Religion is a big part of the problem of disempowering lost of people and making them sheep.
  
  Both Fromm and Maslow have addressed the way religion creates problems in the room above the shoulders. It's too long for me to go into at the moment. I have observed it all over the world up front and personal.
  
  MissFickle, as human beings we are quite a bit more complex than your garden variety ants, and not fated to regress to that level of functionality, although it is precisely the kind of system the industrial/marketing/consumerists societys every where tends to resemble. And people tend to find dehumanizing, alienating, and colorless.
  
  It's not our intellects that's our downfall, rather it is our lack of creative use of our intellect on a wide scale. True this is not categorically the case, and let's be grateful for that.
  
  We need to re-think "society"--as primarily something that gives birth to the individual as opposed to making us into mindless consumers,ever so content with little token symbols of individuality (a hairstyle, a new tie, this or that car) and who react like little girls everytime some one rocks the boat.
  
  In other words, society needs to make a priority out of urging people to explore that 90% of our brain that the vast majority of us do not put to any use.
  

• missfickle said on Aug 23, 2006....

  Points taken YBNB, but my main point was that they don't 'create' war.
  Intellect does give us the capacity to be creative, however again it all boils down to perception.
  
  'I think therefore I am' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  
  But who are you? who are we? why are we?
  
  Individuals come up with different thoughts on these subjects.
  
  I have watched the 'mental health' experts, try to interact with normal human beings, and I've got to say a lot of them fail miserably, cos their own perception interferes with what is going on.
  
  Just so you know, I do think it is a shame that we loose touch with our inner voice, it is the one 'sense' that made 'sense'
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• heavenlysent said on Sep 10, 2006....

  Yeahbutnobut
  Loved this post and am sorry I'm am reading it outside of the conversation itself.
  I agree and I believe conditioning right from the cradle takes us so far away from who we truely are that it is only through the path of introspection we are able to find our way back. If we are looking, this journey will take a life time. I agree we are not taught this valuable tool for life (introspection) and it is only from stepping outside the square we can find it. It is strange how our education systems do not reflect the expectations society has of us in relation to morals and values. It focuses on success through ego via material gain and status. This is how we are taught to feel good about ourselves, this is how we are taught to measure ourselves, this is how we are taught to view and judge others and this is how we are taught whether we are a success or a failure. Then if we are lucky and stumble upon a glimpse of our own truth - then the journey back to ourselves begins. However this isn't easy as it requires stamina and self commitment and we are challenged every step of the way by those who like ourselves in the past, are conditioned not to see. I agree with you whole heartedly.
  Sorry for dragging the chain however have got your number now so will keep an eye on your posts
  Thanks
  Heavenlysent
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 10, 2006....

  Actually, true faith isn't rules and conditions. Faith is believing in an unseen God that is greater than our understanding, and believing that Jesus Christ died to give us a way to knowing and being with God. If anyone can reach outside themselves and consider that might be true, then we're getting somewhere.
  
  My wife and I left the Lutheran church partly because we felt it made the wrong conclusions about the Bible, especially about rules and conditions. One of which was baptizing a child as an infant and raising it in the church. We would much rather teach the child and let the baptism be a choice they made themselves. Many churches do this, so no one can say that rules and conditions and indoctrinating from birth happens in every situation. Would you say you indoctrinate your child from birth by teaching them right from wrong?
  
  Also, religion is not as complicated as some have made it out to be. A nonchristian can walk into a church, feel convicted by the Holy Spirit (or Inner voice, as it's been called in this post) to seek forgiveness for any wrongs they've committed, and to accept Jesus as their savior, for dying on the cross to negate their sins. They go to the front of the church at the end and receive prayer from church leaders to become a Christian. After that, it is a matter of getting connected with people so that you're not merely going to church and getting lost in the crowd. One church service, and a class here, or a meeting there, to learn and gain understanding. It can be as simple as that. Don't complicate it with examples of bad churches. If you don't like it, seek a church that does keep it simple.
  
  As far as the "sheep" comment...ALL of us are sheep - wandering, lost. Most of us don't know it or accept it. Jesus was known as The Good Shepherd because we follow his example, so we don't all wander off a cliff. If anyone knows a thing about sheep, it's that they're dumb. Stone cold dumb. We NEED someone to shepherd us, because our own brains often come to the wrong conclusion (I.e., God doesn't exist because I don't understand Him).
  
  Rules and conditions seem confining to us, but consider getting your license. You learn the rules of the road so you can drive safely and pass your exam and road test. We do this because, if we disobey those rules, we could get ourselves or others ticketed, hurt or killed. You don't think those rules are restrictive, do you? They save lives.
  
  Christianity is the exact same way. Complaining about its rules makes us forget that they're there to protect us, and to protect others, even if we make mistakes. If we veer off a road by accident, an oncoming driver can still remember the rule of driving defensively and swerve around you. So in Christianity, even if you mess up, other people can choose to forgive you according to the "rules", so that no damage is done.
  
  For former Christians here: it seems the prevailing reason why people don't go to church after awhile is because fellow Christians were whack, and people in the church hurt them. It wasn't normally a beef with God Himself, but people stopped becoming a Christian because of other people. What about God? It seems the former Christians I've heard from started searching for truth in other ways, and are Buddhist, agnostic, etc... I believe they forgot that God is bigger than other people. If worshipping God is the whole point, and His opinion is the one that matters most, why did people fall away because of crap other people did? They screwed up, not God. We hear from everywhere that we should support what we believe in, no matter what other people say. It's the same thing - God matters, not the person in the back pew who scoffs at your casual clothes, nose piercings, or shaggy facial hair. I think many former Christians were in churches that simply got it wrong. They gave up because their church didn't teach them any better.
  
  Rules are tough to follow, especially the high standards of the ones in the Bible. But we follow rules closely if they clearly and plainly protect us, and we get a great benefit from it (learn to drive, and you can get around. I hear it comes in handy when going to work or on vacation). I think many anti-Christian opinions come from people who were poisoned by bad examples of Christianity. But you cannot throw out the whole thing just because of the bad apples.
  
  When it comes down to it, there is a Christianity that takes people who are already lost and hurting and "dumb as sheep" and lifts them up. People who have outstanding debts can be supported by the church. Unpaid monthly bills or car repairs can be paid by the church for those who can't afford to pay for it. Lonely people can get into a small group to study the Bible for reasons why the "rules" are there to protect us. A person suffering from a chronic illness can be prayed over (and many times, healed instantly) during church. A person disillusioned with the millions of voices of "truth" in this world can hear the source of truth at church and anchor their lives into something that's lasted over the course of human history and beyond - a God that created us, created love, and created peace. Don't trash Him or His followers by blaming God for things other people have done in His name. If you do, you might as well judge all of Islam solely by the fascist terrorists that kill in Allah's name. And certainly, do not dismiss the above examples as hogwash. They happen in my church every day. But if you don't believe in God, you wouldn't go to church and therefore wouldn't see it for yourself, would you? Don't disbelieve something you refuse to witness.
  
  If anyone tries to logically prove or explain that God exists, they will fail. Is that because God makes no sense? No. It's because our intellect is not the greatest in existence - that would be God's. If we're turtles, and God is explaining the top speed of the world's fastest cars, we're probably going to hide in our shell and poop out our breakfast. We cannot grasp everything God is, or even everything around us. If we rely solely on our intellect, we will miss out on the most important part of life - the Truth of God.
  
  Did anyone ever consider that it isn't religion, or war, or crime, or other "bad" things that is to blame? What is the common denominator to all of those? Humanity. We are selfish by nature, and that's why we need Jesus as a savior, to show us a way that loves and protects others, NOT just ourselves. For example, when raising a child, you have to teach them to tell the truth, but you do NOT have to teach them to lie. They can do that themselves. Why? Because we are selfish by nature. We can spend our lives doing good things for others, but what for? To gain from it ourselves? That is reciprocation, or even manipulation, not selflessness. Do we do good things because we think whatever afterlife there is, we'll be let in for being decent? If we don't know what there is after this life, how can we prepare for it? Do we do good things because "it's the right thing to do"? That's fine, but how do you know it's the right thing to do? When we understand that God clearly defined right and wrong, we can understand that serving Him out of faith with good deeds gives us a reason WHY we do good things.
  
  So many of us try to attain perfection in some way - mastering a skill, a subject, a philosophy, the ideal job/marriage/relationships...but in the end, "perfect" people don't go to Heaven...forgiven people do. If no one sees a need to be forgiven for their inherent selfishness, they can't expect Heaven when they die. We'll explain away or justify why we're right, but seldom admit to ourselves that we aren't nearly as good as we appear to be. Sometimes our intentions just suck. But if we want something outside of the rat race, outside our own intellect, God is always there. We're still sheep whether we follow Him or not...but with Him we have a direction.
  
  If any of you reject Christianity because of a church you attended or because of people that pissed you off, don't go back to that church, and certainly don't write off all churches as being just as terrible. Find a church for yourself and give it an honest shot - not just doing everything you can to shoot down anything against your beliefs. I see that way too often. Any philosophy or human system of beliefs won't hold water in comparison to God. If we consider that, maybe we will see much more truth and much less debate/contempt.
  
  And for those who hear my words and get angry, consider that you've heard them before, from someone who said them to judge you or make you feel guilty or ashamed. I'm not those people. I say all this to point to the one truth that can better humanity, even though many of us get it wrong and use it to hurt others. Despite anything anyone's said to you, God's words aren't to be used as a weapon to hurt people. Just because God's words were misused to judge you doesn't mean those words are evil. Consider my words a chance to open up to something that will love and protect you - knowing God - and something that offers much more freedom than you can imagine. :)
  

• Keepinitbloodyreal said on Dec 14, 2006....

  I agree, we are conditioned to think and behave the way our parents and influences from society expect us to be. I believe that religion has a lot to answer for in our society, I do not believe that anyone no matter who they are have the right to tell anyone how to think or how to live their lives. I am so gratefull to my parents for raising me to be a free thinker and to allways question things and to not take anything on face value. We have all become like a flock of sheep following each other around, and not using our minds and creating our own path in life. I have exposed my children to all different types of religion and beliefs, but they have been raised with no particular set religion, this gives them an understanding and the ability to choose what they want to believe for themselves. I have done my job as a parent and instilled in them good values, morals and standards and the ability to cope in the world because I encourage free thinking and an innerstrength. I want my children to be able to pull strength from themselves in times of hardship in their lives and be proud that they are not easily lead or sucked into false beliefs and promises of a better life by so called christian organisations that give nothing back to the community. Free thinking and listening to your inner voice is definately are hard thing to achieve, I just wish there were more people who had the strength to do it. Joanne

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