• D6fer said on Nov 07, 2008....

  Bravo Curm! ....my sentiments exactly......I can not believe the animosity that these yo-yo's hold even after winning!......As far as I can tell, they are trying to insure that conservatism doesn't show it's face again.
  
  I honestly hope Obama can pull it off and improve this nation.....that will force the Republicans to up their game.
  
  Competition is good for America.....even in politics.
  

• secretlife said on Nov 07, 2008....

  beautifully said.

• bloc said on Nov 07, 2008....

  this is a good example of how neocons play it both ways to make their points. "A high percentage of the nation is still socially and politically conservative. 30 States have laws on the books banning gay marriage. "
  
  
  When a neocon wants to claim that many people are conservative they pick something like this and use it as proof of conservatism. If many of those same people are also for universal healthcare or criticize Bush for torturing people or criticize Bush in any way they suddenly become crazy liberals. There is no intellectual honesty in the neocon movement and this is one of many examples.
  
  
  Secondly, people are proud not because of Obama specifically, but because of the symbolism of a minority President. That fact that you don't get this is odd.
  
  
  "My guess is if Obama doesn't impress, his supporters will spend three years blaming Bush"
  
  
  You're projecting which isn't surprising. This is what neocons do, like when they blame the bad economy after 8 years of Bush and 6 years of total republican control on Clinton or some such nonsense. The housing crisis is Barney Frank's fault because you know, his party had total control for 6 years ... oh wait, no republicans had total control and did nothing.
  
  
  "What scares me most is that the leftist media will become little more than an unthinking, unquestioning propaganda tool for the Obama administration."
  
  
  LOL, yeah right. Like they did when they kept nailing Clinton for Lewinsky 24 hours a day. 

• D6fer said on Nov 07, 2008....

  bloc......you give too many people in the voting segment too much credit......many people vote one way or the other for candidates for the wrong reason. example: mom and dad were republicans, so I am too.....that guy is better looking so I am voting for him.....women voting for women because they are women.......race for race....etc
  Issues are another story.......most of the liberal issues were voted down this election.....just the reverse for prop 8 in California as it was rewritten to try and fool the population....but it didn't work.
  
  Look at abortion.....most women that claim to be pro-choice say that they would never have an abortion themselves but believe in the right to choose....makes no sense.
  
  No Clinton kept nailing lewinsky....get it right.....that story was just too big to ignore....and they tried to play it down at every turn.....telling us that no one cared about it.
  
  Excuses will be made if Obama doesn't cut the mustard.
  
  btw....I do blame Bush for this crappy economy....along with the Republican majority he had.....and the Dems that took over.....and yes...Barney Frank is also to blame for this mess.
  
  Again.....I hope Obama pulls this off....why would anyone want any less for their country and for themselves? I can only speak for myself in that respect....not for the Republicans......I never heard any prominent Liberals with that attitude when Bush was elected.
   
  

• D6fer said on Nov 07, 2008....

  
  "What scares me most is that the leftist media will become little more than an unthinking, unquestioning propaganda tool for the Obama administration."
  
  Here's the first example!
  
  
  
  
  

• D6fer said on Nov 07, 2008....

  damn! embed code not working! suspicious! ......anyway....here is a link to your favorite rag bloc.....did you see this in the HP
  

• sheltercrow said on Nov 08, 2008....

  Pew Research seems to confirm that...
  
  
  ...we now see significantly more support than we did in, let’s say, the mid-1990s for the social safety net, for social welfare programs. Here are a couple of graphics that illustrate that.
  
  ...we are seeing some decline, even if modest, again compared with the 1990s, in socially conservative attitudes. We picked out a couple of tables here that illustrate the trend.
  
  ...we have seen some decline in expressions of religious intensity.
  
  ...are seeing a slow trend in our surveys, and we see these in other surveys, of a growth in people who are religiously unaffiliated.
  
  We're seeing this trend towards greater secular and unaffiliated status. It's a slow one, but it's becoming a fairly significant one, and it's a part of the explanation for why young people are more Democratic in their affiliation than are older people.
  

• sheltercrow said on Nov 08, 2008....

  What do you think of this curn... lol.
  
  
  Majorities in all major demographic and political groups say they prefer news with no political point of view. However, less educated people are more likely than those with more education to say they prefer news from their point of view. A third of conservative Republicans, and about the same proportion of liberal Democrats (31%), say they prefer news with their point of view. That compares with 27% of conservative and moderate Democrats, 21% of moderate and liberal Republicans and just 15% of political independents.

• curmudgeon said on Nov 08, 2008....

  Shelter: Thanks for the link. What is preferred by consumers and what is actually delivered - especially by "papers of record" are two different things. Actually, the study you offer likely explains why newspaper circulation is down, since so much of it is tilted to the left.
  
  Geez, bloc you just don't get it. All Clinton had to do was tell the truth right off the bat and the media would have laid off and castigated the Republicans for bringing up a private matter. But the President lied to the Nation under Oath! There are some things even party hack journalists can't ignore.
  
  My question is not whether the press will cover up an eggregious lie or criminality, but whether it will refrain from legitimate criticism or critical policy analysis simply because their man is in office. Will criticism from political opponents be aired, or will it be characterized as racist? We'll have to see.
  
  As for intellectual honesty, I do believe I expressed disappointment at watching the Republicans embroil themselves in scandal. Although McCain lost by a wide margin, 43%-odd percent of voters supported him. Prop 8's success shows that socially conservative attitudes still exist in one of the bluest States in the nation, and that these social conservatives still wield some political power. But bloc doesn't like this so he has to make blanket statements about neocons. Whatever.
  
  As for intellectual dishonesty, bloc's assertion that electing a minority president is something to be particularly proud of demonstrates what paltry progress we've made on race in this country, not how much. Martin Luther King Jr. envisioned a country where a man would be judged by the content of his character, not his skin color. That libs are so proud of having a minority in office simply because he's a minority  - less because of his experience and qualifications - is plainly sick, condescending and racist.  I guess now they feel they can get over their white liberal guilt and go back to their fat-free fair trade lattes and hot yoga classes.
  
  For me, skin color means vastly less than political philosophy and qualifications. I can't speak for other conservatives, but frankly I don't care what religion or skin color a candidate has so long as that person believes in limiting the power of government over the People and promoting freedom and opportunity for everyone.
  
  I stand proud of my country for right, for wrong, for bad, for good, for easy and for hard, through thick and through thin. I am with this country every step of the way for as long as I live. That's the love Martin Luther King Jr. expressed for this country.
  
  Fake patriots, get ready to put your flags away.
  

• D6fer said on Nov 08, 2008....

  Awesome Curm! You have a way with words my friend.......you articulated what I and many many Americans feel.

• Expendable said on Nov 08, 2008....

  I've heard a few McCain supporters claiming they'd go to Canada if Obama won. It made me laugh.

• ALIENated said on Nov 08, 2008....

  
  Face it. Republicans are losing because they are hardly distinguishable from
  Democrats. McCain would have been a perfect Democrat candidate if the
  Democrat party had not gone Socialist in the last few years (ever farther to
  the left, the Jerimiah Wright and Bill Ayers left). And, of course, if he was
  black (or maybe 1/8 black). Republicans need to look different than Democrats.
  They are trying to be Democrats, but they are not good at it because they
  are not really Democrats. Republicans need to be a clear alternative to
  Democrats. Republicans need to say we are going to fix the illegal immigrant
  problem, and then FIX the illegal immigrant problem. Republicans need to say 
  we are going to stop gay marriage, and then STOP gay marriage. Republicans 
  need to say we are going to outlaw abortion, and then OUTLAW abortion. But
  even that is a losing game because Republicans are the party of smaller 
  government, and smaller government is just not an option at this point in 
  American history. So Republicans need to offer an alternative to socialized 
  medicine, even if it means regulating the medical professions and hospitals.
  Republicans need stop last minute abortions and try to offer alternatives. 
  Republicans need to offer a better way than gay marriage, some kind of 
  agreement that would cover the legal issues and stay away from the
  "recognized by God" aspects, which it is never going to be. Republicans need
  to stop trying to be Democrats because they stink at it. McCain proved 
  that many times over. Bush was elected to do some things that he totally
  failed at. Both parties are in bed with big business and corporations, just
  different businesses and corporations. Republican politicians need to make
  better choices and Republican voters need to make sure that happens. Some
  jerkoff like McCain should never get to the top of the heap. Republicans got
  what they deserve. And now Amercia has what is deserves--a duffus idiot
  that only his color going for him. But we should never fear which party the
  president is from. We should only fear that we may not have the freedom to
  vote him out when the time comes. And that is my fear when a person like
  Obama stands up and basically lays out a socialist agenda, talks about
  an outdated constitution, and has a congress packed with people willing
  to change it.
  
  

• ALIENated said on Nov 08, 2008....

  
  And, I am proud to be an American. I am not always proud of the people
  Americans pick to run the country, but that never changes my basic
  feelings about the greatest country in the world. I think that is what most
  people mean. Kind of like hating the war, but supporting the troops. I love
  the country, but do not support the dufuses trying to bring it down or
  "change" it. I want Obama to succeed in tradionally good things, things
  that make our country great, but I want him to fail miserably when he 
  tries to move us closer to a socialist state. Remember, too far to the left,
  as well as too far to the right, results in a police state. Those that believe
  in the system policing those that do not believe in the system. America
  has survived by staying close to the middle.
  
  

• bloc said on Nov 08, 2008....

  "Prop 8's success shows that socially conservative attitudes still exist in one of the bluest States in the nation, and that these social conservatives still wield some political power. But bloc doesn't like this so he has to make blanket statements about neocons. Whatever."
  
  
  this is nonsense frankly. 70% African americans in Cali voted for prop 8. These same people vote overwhelmingly democratic every single election by large margins. Calling these people conservatives is the intellectual dishonesty I was speaking of. Is a conservative for universal healthcare? You guys change definitions to suit your current needs.
  
  
  "bloc's assertion that electing a minority president is something to be particularly proud of demonstrates what paltry progress we've made on race in this country, not how much"
  
  
  Wow, you really don't get it do you. Wow, just wow. 

• SeanRenaud said on Nov 08, 2008....

  1.  For the few who were threatening to move to Canada, I wish they had.  I honestly have terribly little use for fair weather patriots myself.  The fact however is that they are a vocal minority.  Much like ALIEN and Rush Limbaugh.  I know that your average Republican regardless of their personall feelings about Palin and the kind of conservatism that she represents isn't the route to go.  It would be the same as the Democrats deciding that they lost because they didn't put a PETA leader as their nominee. 

  That's not to say there aren't conservative points that are good and popular.  If McCain had taken a strong and plausible anti-illegal immigration stance he would have done worlds better.  California is a blue state, and it's a well known fact.  Californians are also pissed off.  Promise us a fence (which is symbolic not actually useful and probably over all a burn of cash) put in writing that you will agresively hunt down the people who hire illegals, Swear to make famous the politicians pushing for any kind of amnesty and see the kinds of inroads you make.

  2.  People can keep sticking to the fact that Clinton lied about a blowjob but we all know it's a question that shouldn't have been asked in the first place and you're almost litterally expected to lie about it.  Besides we aren't even a full week into Obama being President Elect and he's already getting bitten by the press for poking fun at Nancy Reagan. 

  3.  Republicans aren't threatening to leave the country cus they can't.  And they know it.  The fact is that in Canada or Europe the American Democrat IS the conservative.  The only nations on earth more Conservative than the US are the middle eastern theocracies. . .and the irrational hatred (of both religions) wouldn't let that fly for every long.  And to be fair that pleases me greatly.  Cus the moment that Jerry Falwell and Ayatollah of Rock n' Rolla realize that they have more in common than not, but that those pesky agnostics and atheists are really gaining ground rapidly. . .well I get to convert or die.  So it's in my best interest for those two to keep fighting.  It was at least an option.

  4.  Most Americans are and always have been proud to be Americans.  They know they live in the greatest nation on the face of this earth.  They may have diagreements over how best to lead it and progress forward.  I often get the impresson that Republicans have a more "pragmatic" view of the world.  Particularly when it comes to foreign affairs.  Its better to be the monster than it is to lose the fight.  Democrats seem to have a more "ideal" view of the world where doing the right thing is it's own ultimate reward.

  I tend to err towards I'd rather be a living monster than a dead hero myself.  Doesn't mean it should be the first option but still. 

  One of the reasons that "libeals" are so happy now is that they no longer feel excluded.   The government is on "their" side now.  They aren't America haters, and anti-patriotic because they aren't in lock step (though Andora is calling for Obama to create his own SS unit to "ninja" those who don't support him.).  That they can say that this isn't the best way to do this and not be screamed as trying to help the terrorists win. 

  5.  Finally Republicans are going to continue to lose ground until they realize that a growing number of people support Gay Rights, support pro-choice and run from religion as quickly as possible.  There is a reason why the most populare 3rd party is Libertarian.  And Libertarians aren't taking away from the Democrat Party.  They taking away from the Republican Party and in many cases believe themselves to be wha tthe Republican Party is supposed to be.  Smaller government.  The government shouldn't be giving a tax incentive to marry and the rest of the rights should be universal wether lovers or best friends forever.  That it's your body and it's your choice. 

  6.  We made history.  Period.  A man with a significant amount of pigmentation in his skin has been elected to the highest office in this country.  Its exciting because it's history and it only happens once.  And the last eight years have been a lot of bad news *not because of Bush* 9/11, Katrina, Housing Collapse, Korea becoming a nuclear power, Iran on the edge (Watch that situation closely, it will likely be Obama's first major hurdle)

  7.  America has never been particularly centrist.  As a nation we've historically always been right of center when looked at in comparison to the industrial world.  I suppose we're centrist if you want to consider stoning women as a society worthy of being considered part of the scale.  Maybe it's that American snob in me but I don't for the most part.  I could careless how far to the right Iran is.  The only time I'll mention Rwanda and gun control is when people want to scream about how bad gun control is.  I'm still waiting btw for someone to give me (not you bloc) a reason why Tupac should have been denied the ICBM's he could undoubtly afford or why Biggy Smalls should have been denied access to an Abrams tank.  After all the Constitution prohibits restriction on ARMS.  Both of which qualify.

• sheltercrow said on Nov 08, 2008....

  An interesting point from the nwprogressive.org
  
  
  The Myth of the Liberal Media is Dead
  
  In the wake of former White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan's book, with its dressing down of the media for "dropping the ball" with regard to coverage of the Iraq war, CNN's Jessica Yellin went on Anderson Cooper 360 last night and destroyed what little was left of the myth of the liberal media.
  
  
  "The press corps was under enormous pressure from corporate executives, frankly, to make sure that this was a war presented in a way that was consistent with the patriotic fever in the nation and the president's high approval ratings," Yellin said.
  
  "And my own experience at the White House was that the higher the president's approval ratings, the more pressure I had from news executives — and I was not at this network at the time — but the more pressure I had from news executives to put on positive stories about the president, I think over time...."
  
  
  Journalists are supposed to report the news, not make the news. But corporate executives, as we've seen too many times in recent history, seem to only care about profit. And given that the Bush Administration has proven itself to be a subsidiary of corporate America, why bite the hand that feeds you if you're an executive of a news outlet?

• sheltercrow said on Nov 08, 2008....

  Excerpt from The Origins of the Modern American Conservative Movement
  
  
  Russell Kirk and The Conservative Mind
  
  Kirk described six basic "canons" or principles of conservatism:
  
  

  • A divine intent, as well as personal conscience, rules society;
  • Traditional life is filled with variety and mystery while most radical systems are characterized by a narrowing uniformity;
  • Civilized society requires orders and classes;
  • Property and freedom are inseparably connected;
  • Man must control his will and his appetite, knowing that he is governed more by emotion than by reason; and
  • Society must alter slowly.

• sheltercrow said on Nov 08, 2008....

  I would rather word it as such...
  
  
  Finally being able to elect a minority president is something to be particularly proud of. It not only highlights what slim progress we've made on race based voting but also says that we can overcome long held prejudices and emerge as a real polity.
  
  
  Using Martin Luther King Jr. as a red herring is, to be honest, uncouth.

• one_wired_kitty said on Nov 08, 2008....

  I was proud to be an American before ... still am. I may not agree with everything that's being done but that doesnt' change anything.

• mobil said on Nov 08, 2008....

  Who would move to Canada? Talk about socialism and a failing healthcare system !!!!! No safe harbor in Canada my friends hahaha.

   

  I see bloc has learned a new word, don't over use it buddy you'll lose impact. Kinda like you did using torture till the word grew moldy and a little stinky too.

   

  Mudgy you do indeed have a way with words and make about as much sense as anyone I've read around these parts. Thank you for saying so well what I think.

• sheltercrow said on Nov 08, 2008....

  The Republican Sham:
  
  
  'threatening to leave the country.'
  
  
  Because they won't. And they know it.
  
  
  'so long as that person believes in limiting the power of government over the People and promoting freedom and opportunity for everyone.'
  
  
  In the real world, which is clearly not reflected to the ideologies of both parties, this always translates to...
  
  'so long as that person believes in limiting the power of government over the corporations and promoting freedom and opportunity for corporations.'

• mOOn_platOOn said on Nov 08, 2008....

   
  bloc has reminded me that I want to post a post about "Not Getting It: the phenOmenOn Of finding yOurself Out Of the lOOp."
   
  I get your point perfectly, cur, and appreciate the post. As a great example of sore losing, the "NO" on Prop 8 folks filled the streets of West Hollywood and Westwood with their public hissy fits for two days after the election, inconveniencing everyone by clogging major Los Angeles traffic arteries, destroying or defacing property, and turning sympathetic voters against them simply for their bad behavior. I guess elections are acceptable unless they don't go your way, in which case they become lawsuits.
   
  We have elections to temporarily decide directions so that afterward we can move in those directions. Those who stubbornly refuse to move and get with the program or don't go back into the system to change things next time around are just bad sports and sore losers. Period.
   
  I didn't get my way in many cases this time around, so I bitched mostly to myself and the unfortunates within earshot, then I shut up and started to adjust.
   
  No thoughts of seceding from the union or defecting to a foreign power crossed my mind. Just the festering thought of starting my own political movement.
   
  Country first. At least in politics.
   
  - OO
   

• ALIENated said on Nov 08, 2008....

  
  Finally Republicans are going to continue to lose ground until they realize 
  that a growing number of people support Gay Rights, support pro-choice 
  and run from religion as quickly as possible. 
  
  Yes, the liberal media and Hollywood would love for us to believe that. This
  country is great because that is NOT true. This country was founded on and 
  has been successful because of a belief in God. The people that do believe
  as you say are what is causing this NOT to be the greatest nation in the
  world any longer. I know ... George Bush ... blah blah blah. I dare say Obama
  will prove what those kind of beliefs lead to. I am pretty convinced that we
  are now on the path to the end times, and Obama will just be the ideal guy
  to fit what the Bible says about the end times. If you look at all the bogus
  aspects of why the guy was elected, you have to wonder what is going on
  at some spiritual level. If you read the Bible, you see time after time people
  turning away from God, and suffering the consequences. We are about to
  find out first hand just what that means. I am no prophet, but mark my words.
  We think 9/11 was bad. We have seen nothing yet. No team is successful 
  if the quarterback is an inexperienced dufus. And most of the world knows 
  that. How they must be laughing their asses off at us.
  
  

• TinSoldier said on Nov 08, 2008....

  I've always been proud to be an American. I'm just more proud now.
  
  
  *shrug*
  
  
  I guess I can see how certain groups of people would be less proud as they see themselves as left behind from some of the benefits or promise of this country up to this point.

• one_wired_kitty said on Nov 08, 2008....

  Yeah - I threaten to move to Canada out of temporary frustration - but it passes. I know deep down I wouldn't make an exodus.

• sheltercrow said on Nov 08, 2008....

  Lets see how 'limiting the power of government' works in the real world. From the nwprogressive weblog.
  
  
  Since the days of Ronald Reagan, the Republican party has worshiped at the altar of big business. Bush's only consideration in enacting these measures to deregulate anything and everything is the pursuit of the Almighty Dollar to pad the corporate bottom line. This is a blatant attempt to further line the pockets of corporate cronies at the expense of public safety.
  
  How would you like uranium mining, just 5 miles from the Grand Canyon?
  
  
  The Bush administration is rushing forward with plans to mine the Grand Canyon for uranium, ignoring a command from Congress to cease such operations. Since 2003, mining interests have staked out over 800 uranium claims within five miles of Grand Canyon National Park. As Mineweb reports, "The Bureau of Land Management has published a proposed rule which rejects the House Natural Resources Emergency Resolution enacted in June that bans uranium mining and exploration near the Grand Canyon National Park."
  
  [...]
  
  The proposed BLM rule would not only reject the House's emergency withdrawal of over 1 million acres of federal land near Grand Canyon National Park from new uranium mining, but also eliminate the provisions that allow Congress to make such withdrawals in the future. The proposed rule, published on Friday, has a remarkably short comment period, closing in less than two weeks on October 27.

• mOOn_platOOn said on Nov 08, 2008....

   
  I'm afraid that folks like ALIENated are setting themselves up for another round of disappointment when it turns out that BHO isn't that Antichrist they're always on the lookout for. Their only compensation for losing an election of such radical racial consequence would be if that inexplicable winner were indeed supernatural. But I'm not seeing the horns, the pitchfork or the tail. Just some occasional headlight eyes from the President-In-Waiting as he realizes the magnitude of the expectations he now faces.
   

• SeanRenaud said on Nov 08, 2008....

  ...

   

• bloc said on Nov 08, 2008....

  mobil's indifference to torture says a great deal about the type of person he is. 

• mobil said on Nov 08, 2008....

  Thanks bloc, Mom says the same about me. Coming from you though it's a real honor.

• ALIENated said on Nov 08, 2008....

  
  Thanks Professor, you nutty guy. I never said Borax was the antiChrist. I
  figure him for a toady at best. A smudge on the pages of history. I mean 
  the guy has absolutely nothing going for him. Any success he has will be 
  pure luck, just as Bush had the bad luck of being on duty during 9/11. 
  What I was referring to is the sudden breakdown of damn near everything
  all over the world. As things get worse and worse, the antiChrist (the
  person) will become known. The antiChrist spirit is already well entrenched
  in this old world of ours. We are now justifying many things that people
  would have been appalled about not that many years ago. Who in years
  gone by would have voted for a baby-killer like Borax? Or anyone that
  openly supported sodomy. What good Texan or Californian would have
  settled for anyone that was not talking about shooting Mexicans as they
  sneak across the border? We are slipping into the pit and justifying it 
  every step of the way. No nation has turned its back on God and lasted
  all that long. God-fearing Muslims (wrong as they may be) are currently 
  taking over Europe, replacing Europeans too stupid to reproduce. How 
  long before we hand them the keys to America? We may already have 
  since Borax will soon be the keeper of the keys. Proud to be an 
  American? I am wondering if anyone is proud to be a Caucasian 
  anymore? Caucasians have fled the intercities and we see the decay
  there. How long before the same decay takes over the federal government
  as well?
  
  

• bloc said on Nov 08, 2008....

  I hope the Republican party continues to see people like alienated as their prime constituents because they will continue to lose. Nothing like a party based on open bigotry.
  
  "Caucasians have fled the intercities and we see the decay there. How long before the same decay takes over the federal government as well? "

• TinSoldier said on Nov 08, 2008....

  No, pieces of dogshit like Alienated are the ones that we Republicans need to kick out of the Republican Party. Let 'em make their own goddamned party.
  
  
  They can have it.

• bloc said on Nov 08, 2008....

  i hope you guys do manage to kick them out. I'm curious to see how this fight within the republican party plays out.

• ALIENated said on Nov 08, 2008....

  
  Sorry, I know the truth hurts sometime.
  
  

• TinSoldier said on Nov 08, 2008....

  Yes, the truth hurts sometimes, Alienated. Get used to it.

• D6fer said on Nov 08, 2008....

  geez guys....I didnt realize anyone here was a representative of any political party.....it's a glorified chat room for god's sake!

• sheltercrow said on Nov 09, 2008....

  Now that your back from Rura Penthe. Lets look at the results.
  
  
  [The first man of color as President is a] 'smudge on the pages of history' [and] 'has absolutely nothing going for him.'
  
  
  Hum.
  
  As for Bush. How quickly we forget.
  
  If not for 9/11 Bush would have been gone long ago. Before 9/11 he was a political hack that stole an election. Neither the democrats nor the republican core could stomach him much longer. His popularity numbers were tanking and his unfavorable rating had just gone up 10% (past 50%) in the month before the attack. He was just beginning to dodge reporters asking about Florida.
  
  It was then that Bush milked the post-attack confusion for every thing it was worth.
  
  Then the public and press simply forgot everything else like the simple sheep they are.
  

• husbandhater said on Nov 09, 2008....

  The sudden rush to be a patriot has more to do with Americans seeing that the system after Hundreds of years might possibly work and that ALL can really be included in this great nation not just the same white power infulstructure that has lorded over it for over 200and some odd years. And I'm not trying to be racist so don't anyone go there.

  What I'm trying to say is compare it to the executive's wash room in a great organization and the average joe(Obama) paying his dues and getting the key. Then everyother Average Joe beleives they too can have a crack at it. Everyone feels united as if they belong. Unlike when McCain and Palin were going around to the red neck states telling them they are the "REAL AMERICA"! In this day and time that crap has no place in our great nation as we are all REAL AMERICANS.

  I have no disillusions about Mr.Obama. He is a man like anyother and is due to acheive and fail like anyother. But he has taken to task and gotten right to work. He is trying to show us that he is serious about this great honor that we the American public has blessed him with for 4yrs.Now had that been Bush he would be on his ranch hanging out until January 20th. Or had it Been Mac and Sarah they would have been arguing and packing but I seriously doubt they would have gotten right to work as President elect Obama has.

   

• ALIENated said on Nov 09, 2008....

  
  Skittlecork: for once we agree. I was not as unhappy with Bush as most, but
  he was a disappointment to me as well. He brought about few of the things he
  promised to do when he was elected in 2000. (We were all just afraid to 
  change horses in 2004.) I do not regret seeing him go. However, that has 
  nothing to do with Obama. 
  
  Bush being a less than perfect president in no way makes Obama a good choice.
  I was not that happy with McCain either. I think America is the big loser in this 
  election. I am happy that blacks think they finally have a president (if they want
  to fool themselves about Obama's race, so be it), and I obviously want him to 
  be successful at promoting traditional American goals, but, based on his past, I 
  cannot help but believe he has ulterior motives grounded in Marxism and 
  socialism. Ignoring parts of the constitution in times of war is one thing (many
  presidents have done that to foil our enemies), but making moves to change it
  or do away with it is another matter altogether. I figure Obama will make a 
  fatal mistake at some point and tip his hand. The media will wake up to the 
  negative possibilities at some point and the remainder of Obama's one term in 
  office will be a daily battle just as was Clinton's presidency. The economy is a
  major concern for all Americans, no matter which party they claim, but there 
  are a handful of issues that have to be resolved before a real majority of the
  population supports a president from either party. Presidents like FDR and JFK
  were not dealing with dividing issues like gay marriage, abortion, and rampant
  illegal immigration in the background. Nor were they trying to be politically 
  correct about dealing with our foreign enemies. We need to get back to 
  listening to what the president is saying instead of looking at his skin color
  or checking to see who is stand on the stage behind him. Then we might 
  actually hear how stupid his plans are.
  
  

• D6fer said on Nov 09, 2008....

  Obama's Presidency is an opportunity in it's infancy.....let's keep score as we go along......can we see any benefit thus far? I think so....one thing that had not occurred to me before is that Obama's visibility will be a constant example of an actual dedicated family man.......hopefully it will overshadow some of the bad examples that have been in the spotlight for so long for blacks.....snoopdog.....50 cent.....etc.....Obama's message to blacks is one of education and responsibility....not sexuality, debauchery and hate.....so he is a conservative in that respect.....not a bad opening note.

• sheltercrow said on Nov 09, 2008....

  Alien of Rura Penthe: If you compare just the two news conferences that BB has given you will observe the difference immediately. Closing your eyes to reality will not make it go away.
  
  You really do have to give up the "Marxism and socialism" thing. There really is nothing to it. You harping on a non-issue is getting you nothing but derision.
  
  Whether you like it or not "gay marriage, abortion, and ...illegal immigration" are fringe issues that will ultimately be decided in the Supreme Court.
  
  As for the "media waking up" to anything outside corporate profits. Fat chance. Even Fox news has tamed it's act. To deride a President with such a large majority is corporate suicide even for a fake news service.
  
  And Alien, however much you try, it is you that sounds stupid with all the conspiracy nut-case blather
  

• D6fer said on Nov 09, 2008....

  Whether you like it or not "gay marriage, abortion, and ...illegal immigration" are fringe issues that will ultimately be decided in the Supreme Court.
  
  abortion yes you are right.....probably with gay marriage too....despite the fact that voters continually strike it down....but immigration you are dead wrong on......how can the supreme court over rule on an individual breaking the law to be here? Pretty cut and dry......the immigration issue is slowly solving itself with all of the crackdowns on employers over the last 2 years and the economy in the shitter, many illegals have gone home.....we simply need to enforce the laws on the books....more so against the employers than the immigrants....the problem will solve itself.
  

• sheltercrow said on Nov 09, 2008....

  Dfer: In the end it will be the supreme court that defines what the law means when applied to them. As the decisions are handed down they also define the legal status of illegal immigrants. The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996, 8 U.S.C. is being defined with most every case. (see immigration law)
  

• sheltercrow said on Nov 09, 2008....

  Also see The American Immigration Law Foundation and SCOTUS

• sheltercrow said on Nov 09, 2008....

  Dfer: If you would like to become a real citizen (instead of a straw-man) see IMMIGRATION: A PRACTICAL GUIDE TO IMMIGRATING TO THE U.S.

• SeanRenaud said on Nov 09, 2008....

  Illegal Immigration is unlikely to be solved in the Supreme Court.  Abortion was already solved and really wasting more energy on trying to get rid of it is. . .wasted energy.  Particularly if you believe that the Supreme Court is liberal (it isn't, at least not if you count who put them on the court) but there is lots of work to do on lowering the number.  And abortion numbers increased under Bush and decreased under Clinton.  Not that facts matter.
   
  Gay Marriage. . .currently if it gets to the US Supreme Court it'll get shot down.  Just like the ERA can't get through Congress.

• D6fer said on Nov 09, 2008....

  sheltercrow......the American people shut down the e-mail in Congress earlier in the year and flooded the phones.....it killed comprehensive immigration reform......the majority is against amnesty and won't stand for it.

• sheltercrow said on Nov 09, 2008....

  Dfer: This is a bomb shell. Excerpt from Wall Street Fat Cats Are Trying to Pocket Billions in Bailout Cash
  
  
  It turns out that the nine banks about to be getting a total equity capital injection of $125 billion, courtesy of Phase I of The Bailout Plan, had reserved $108 billion during the first nine months of 2008 in order to pay for compensation and bonuses (PDF).
  
  Paying Wall Street bonuses was not supposed to be part of the plan. At least that's how Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson explained it to Congress and the American people. So, on Oct. 1, when the Senate, including Obama, approved the $700 billion bailout package, the illusion was that this would magically loosen the credit markets, and with taxpayer-funded relief, banks would first start lending to each other again, and then, to citizens and small businesses. And all would be well.
  
  That didn't happen.

• D6fer said on Nov 09, 2008....

  they should all be in prison.

• sheltercrow said on Nov 09, 2008....

  There is an interesting video/piece in Gallup on Immigrant Amnesty
  
  But...
  
  
  Most Americans Favor Giving Illegal Immigrants a Chance
  
  Few back mass deportation option
  
  GALLUP NEWS SERVICE
  
  PRINCETON, NJ -- Speaking at an Arizona Border Patrol station in early April, President George W. Bush renewed his call for Congress to pass a comprehensive immigration reform bill this year. Bush favors a combination of strict border control and greater enforcement of penalties against employers who hire illegal workers, along with creating lawful ways for temporary workers to enter the country, and for those already here illegally to become citizens.
  
  A USA Today/Gallup poll conducted April 13-15, 2007, finds the American public in broad agreement with Bush's desire to give illegal immigrants a path to citizenship. Forty-two percent of Americans say their preferred approach to dealing with illegal immigrants is to require them to leave the United States, but then allow them to return and become U.S. citizens if they meet certain requirements. Another 36% would prefer a more liberal system that allows illegal immigrants to remain in the United States while they work toward meeting requirements needed to gain citizenship.
  
  The hard-line approach to illegal immigrants -- requiring them to leave the country with no opportunity to return -- is favored by just 14% of the public.
  
  By the way, Gallup is a member of the National Council on Public Polls
  

• D6fer said on Nov 09, 2008....

  poll the legal citizens of california, arizona, washington and the other states with high illegal immigrant concentrations.....I believe the numbers will change dramatically.
  
  btw.....I don't think mass deportation is the answer either.....enforce the employment laws.....the problem will dry up
  

• SeanRenaud said on Nov 09, 2008....

  Nail the employers.

  The illegal immigration numbers would be vastly different if the only peope polled were in border states that actually feel the effects of the problem.

  Again deporting them. . .it's not even feasible.  Make the employers famous.  Fine them so much that getting caught will put them out of business.  Make fucking sure that the risk is not worth the reward.  If you want to run a few raids to make you feel better go for it.

  I'd also fully support a repeal of the 14th amendment.  It has done it's good and far from helping America it is now harming America and giving us little if anything in return.

• kelly said on Nov 09, 2008....

  "We are now justifying many things that people

  would have been appalled about not that many years ago."

  I know.  Who would have dreamed that the United States would be officially torturing prisoners like some third world dictatorship?  George Washington set the precedent of humane treatment of prisoners and George Bush threw it away.

• sheltercrow said on Nov 10, 2008....

  SR: As I have mentioned elsewhere the law-dogs are aware of the situation. In Arizona, where I lived for nearly a decade, the industrial farmers need the migrants, illegal or not, and they get what they want. It will never change. McCain and Obama know the score.

• D6fer said on Nov 10, 2008....

  I agree sean.....pull the plug on that sucker....it is the anchor baby enabler!

• ALIENated said on Nov 10, 2008....

  
  Move on Kelly. You got your wish. Bush is out. Enjoy the oppression that is
  about to begin because dicks like you voted for the Marxist / Socialist. He
  will soon make torture a household word. Except it will be coupled with
  making it through the day in America. Do not long for Bush as gasoline
  prices and inflation eat up your earnings. Never fear. The M / S will send
  you a rebate check to pay you off for your vote. Of course, by the time
  you get it, it will be worth almost nothing. Just as FDR extended the 
  depression in America long after it was over in the rest of the world, the
  Marxist / Socialist's moves will take us further and further down into the
  depths of economic collapse. But take joy in the fact that terrorists are
  not being aggressively questioned anymore. They will be released soon to
  go and wreak more havoc, kill more of our troops, and bomb more over
  our buildings. That should make Obama's friend Bill Ayers happy as well.
  
  

• redryder said on Nov 10, 2008....

  McCain lost because his party was in the White House while the economy was imploding.  To make it anymore or any less is ignoring American History.  I did not vote for Obama because of his stand on abortion and gay marriage.  But He is the President and his party is in partial control of Congress (filibuster no).  I hope he does what he said he would do, work with both parties to find common ground for the good of the nation and I hope every congressman and woman will do the same, if that happens we can work ourselves out of this mess. 

• SeanRenaud said on Nov 10, 2008....

  We should all look on the bright side here.  I mean when Bush came into office the bar was set rather low.  We all figured all he had to do was coast.  Turned out that history fucked him and he needed to be above average which he clearly is not.
   
  However thanks to guys like ALIEN and Rush the only thing OBama needs to accomplish to exceed all expectations of the man is fail to form the Gestapo and open concentration camps for the genetically inferior. 

• bloc said on Nov 10, 2008....

  @red
  "McCain lost because his party was in the White House while the economy was imploding.  To make it anymore or any less is ignoring American History."
  
  
  I agree generally, but I think there is a bit more to it as well. Most americans are in favor of universal healthcare and have watched their healthcare costs rise and rise year after year. I guess that could be lumped into the economy, but it was a problem before the giant crisis we have know. Also, we have a very unpopular war which Obama wants to end and McCain wanted to continue. But yes, the biggest factor was the economy. 
  
  
  @sean
  "However thanks to guys like ALIEN and Rush the only thing OBama needs to accomplish to exceed all expectations of the man is fail to form the Gestapo and open concentration camps for the genetically inferior. "
  
  
  Great point!!! Like I always say, you just have to let alienated speak and he'll dig himself into a hole.

• redryder said on Nov 10, 2008....

  @bloc:  I didn't do what I asked my students to do and that is be more specific.  You/re right those two issues were a big part of McCain's defeat.   But in the end the number 1 issue coming from exit polling was the economy in general.  

• Expendable said on Nov 10, 2008....

  Did you see the news report that the Secret Service blames Palin for a spike in death threats against Obama? There's a lot of reasons why McCain lost this election and Palin was a big part of it.

• D6fer said on Nov 10, 2008....

  Bloc...sean.....what would Obama have to do to disappoint you?
  I am not being facetious or sarcastic......just curious.

• SeanRenaud said on Nov 10, 2008....

  Not really a fair question.

  1.  He's gonna let me down on illegal immigration.  He's never once taken a hard stance against it.  So I'd be impressed if he pulled did what I want in that regard.

  2.  Considering how strongly he's come out against torture I'll be dissapointed if he doesn't strong stand against that, if not the the point of shutting down Gitmo and other similar camps within his first 12 months then changing how he handles bussiness there.

  3.  We didn't get into the financial crisis overnight, and we won't get out overnight either.  That said not beginning to make visible changes to how we spend tax dollars would be dissapointing.

  I could go on and on though.  There are things I want that I don't expect.  Things I expect but don't want.  So on and so forth.

• kelly said on Nov 10, 2008....

  "However thanks to guys like ALIEN and Rush the only thing OBama needs to accomplish to exceed all expectations of the man is fail to form the Gestapo and open concentration camps for the genetically inferior. "
  
  
  I have to say...that is pretty funny.

• kelly said on Nov 10, 2008....

  "Bloc...sean.....what would Obama have to do to disappoint you? "
  
  
  I know this wasn't directed at me, but my answer would be that if he didn't stop our now official policy of torture, stop illegal surveillance of Americans and put habeas corpus solidly back in place then I'll be sorely disappointed indeed.

• D6fer said on Nov 10, 2008....

  no....you are welcome to answer.....don't care to stick your neck out for that question eh kelly?

• kelly said on Nov 11, 2008....

  I just answered it.  Did you miss it?

• D6fer said on Nov 11, 2008....

  you took the easy road.

• bloc said on Nov 11, 2008....

  I'm with kelly. My big metric for him is to reverse the constitutional crisis Bush created. 

• D6fer said on Nov 11, 2008....

  How about Iraq? how long before all troops are removed? How long is too long?
  
  What about the FISA deal.....what if he doesn't reverse that right away? how long is too long?
  
  What if he allows offshore oil drilling? or in ANWAR?
  
  What if he takes a stand against gay marriage?
  

• SeanRenaud said on Nov 12, 2008....

  I've never had the rock solid stance against Iraq that many others have had.  I would like to see an immediate and definable step towards forcing the Iraqis to take over.  If that was the only thing on his plate (i.e. no financial breakdown) I would say one year, with that I say eighteen months is too long for us not to be pulling out OR having the Iraqi's funding our troops.  Obviously we can't just yank out and leave em hanging but we can't stick around on a charity mission forever either.

  I don't expect him to overturn FISA.  I would like it it but I don't expect it at all.

  I hope he does allow offshore drilling and I'm dissapointed that there are rumors he'll reinstate the ban.  The same goes for ANWAR.  Granted they have a vested interest in this because of making money but it seems like most Alaskans (not just Palin) are pro-drilling in ANWAR and I trust the people closest to this issue to understand it better than I do (and I wasn't against it to begin with.)

  I'll be pissed if he takes a stand against gay marriage.  Or if he took a stance against stem cell research (though it's hardly necessary now) or took a hard stance against abortion.

  I'll be pissed if he signs the Kyoto Protocol.  Really pissed.

• D6fer said on Nov 12, 2008....

  well you better brace yourself sean....cause I think the kyoto protocol thing is going to happen.
  
  I hope he leaves the troops in as long as necessary.....I'd hate for all of those guys who died to have done so in vain. 
  
  Your safe on abortion and stem cell research.
  
  Yeah the offshore drilling thing is disappointing....and I understand that many of those in Congress that voted to lift the ban are now reneging on it......I guess it served them in getting re elected. 
  
  You got balls for putting it out there sean......thats more than I can say for bloc and kelly
  

• SeanRenaud said on Nov 12, 2008....

  1.  I agree that he's likely to sign the Kyoto Protocol.  Which leaves me hoping that my understanding of it's long (and short) term effects is wrong.
   
  2. As far as the war(s) go I'll say two things.  The first is that the body count is still rather low.  Statistically speaking more of those men would have died in drunk driving incidents than have died overseas.  That said there may not be anything there to accomplish.  I'd rather that five thousand men died over five years for nothing than we stubbornly hold on to a false dream and let five thousand and one men die.  Sooner or later we have to force the Iraqis to take control of their own nation or fall on their own.
   
  On a side note can you explain to me why Republicans who are so loathe to use tax dollars to help Americans afford food, shelter, healthcare, hell Playstation 2s but are so willing to support using those same tax dollars to provide food, shelter, healthcare, security and infastructure to non americans.  I like to think that I'm rather consistant.  I like low taxes, small government that stays the fuck out of my way when it's not absolutely necessary.  However I do judge (in part) the worthiness of a person by how close to me they are.  Me, family, friends, citymen, statemen, countrymen, allies, humans.  Pretty much in that order.  I can't see how anybody could justify spending billions abroad and not making equal or greater investments here.
   
  On a side note those in Congress didn't vote to lift the ban.  The ban expired.  It was a classic case of if you ignore a problem long enough it'll go away.
   
  One thing though is that while I don't know what the thresh hold is that would have me turn on Obama I believe that an important part of a Democratic Republic is trust. 
   
  I don't know all of the things that Obama knows or will know.  I don't know the things that Bush knows.  I have no doubt that there are things going on behind the scenes that we in the public are simply not privy to.  I have to trust that some of the time when Obama makes a decision I don't agree with it's because he has information that I don't.  I try(ed) to give the same leeway to Bush.  Doesn't mean I'm not judging them, it doesn't mean that when they make a poor decision and it's proven poor in the same way that I expected it too that I don't take note.  It just means that when that when they do something I can't fathom I do my best to let it shake out before screaming.

• bloc said on Nov 12, 2008....

  @d6
  
  I don't expect ALL troops to be removed from Iraq. I want the occupation to end in a couple of years.
  
  "What about the FISA deal.....what if he doesn't reverse that right away? how long is too long?"
  
  This is a hard question because there are a lot of major issues going on; the economy etc. I want some kind of clear statement on such things within the first year or year and a half and progress on some of these issues to show that the statements are not idle.
  
  "What if he allows offshore oil drilling? or in ANWAR?"
  
  I can accept these if it's in a compromise that also takes very strong measures to get us off oil. Otherwise, I'd be very disappointed.
  
  "What if he takes a stand against gay marriage?"
  
  He's already disappointed me on this one, but I believe this will be righted in time by our society in general.
  
  "I hope he leaves the troops in as long as necessary.....I'd hate for all of those guys who died to have done so in vain.  "
  
  You asked me a lot of questions so let me ask you a few. I've never understood the logic that once some american soldiers die we must stay forever so they don't die in vain. Do you believe that we should never cut our losses in any conflict in which an american soldier has died? Do you believe that the troops in Lebanon died in vain because Reagan pulled the marines out after the barracks bombing? Did Reagan cause our troops to die in vain?
  

• kelly said on Nov 12, 2008....

  ".I'd hate for all of those guys who died to have done so in vain.  "
  
  
  Too late.
  
  
  And I thought I addressed THE most important issues actually facing our country today.  I know most people don't care that we currently live in a de facto dictatorship, but it really worries me and I want it set right.  The easy road?  Give me a break.   I picked the issues that have the most likelihood of causing us to lose the rest of our freedoms and you claim I took the easy road.  Whatever.

• D6fer said on Nov 12, 2008....

  a couple of years??? what a cop out!....well....we have suddenly lowered our standards!......I think most Republicans believe that a couple of years is easily doable.......just don't want to telegraph our moves.
  
  I think my jaw just dropped on your comment on the FISA deal! as much of a stink you have been making over this with Bush eavesdropping on terrorists....now you are in no big hurry to get rid of it.
  
  ANWAR......I thought global warming was the biggest threat to the world.....how could you even think about being ok with it?
  
  Lebanon was not the same thing bloc.....the gravity of the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan is much greater than Lebanon......but I am not sure why Reagan took that course of action....I read that Weinberger talked him out of an attack
  

• bloc said on Nov 13, 2008....

  you are playing some kind of political gotcha game which isn't interesting or worth responding to. Speaking of a cop out, we only have to look as far as your statement on Lebanon.
  
  On a serious note we learn this today.
  
  "WASHINGTON -- With growing talk in Washington that President Bush may be considering an unprecedented "blanket pardon" for people involved in his administration's brutal interrogation policies, advisors to Barack Obama are pressing ahead with plans for a nonpartisan commission to investigate alleged abuses under Bush."
  
  You never told me how you felt about McCain calling Bushes policies "torture". Do you believe McCain was wrong on that? Or do you support torture?
  

• sheltercrow said on Nov 13, 2008....

  Here is something interesting. The practice of having "corporations and law firms pick up the tab for presidential transitions" will not be followed by the Obama transition team.  From Obama Acts To Drive The Lobbyists Out of Washington by Leonard Doyle
  
  
  ...They are to be denied their normal role of greasing the wheels of the new administration's costly transition to power by paying for office space and staff between now and the inauguration on 20 January.
  
  Mr Podesta unveiled what he said was "the strictest, the most far-reaching ethics rules of any transition team in history," and declared "that the undue influence of Washington lobbyists and the revolving door of Washington ceases to exist."
  
  ..."I've heard the other complaint, which is we're leaving all these experts on the side... We're leaving all the people who know everything out in the cold," Mr Podesta said. "And so be it."
  

• D6fer said on Nov 13, 2008....

  bloc.....I believe McCain was lying when he said that.
  
  I think my questions are fair considering what Obama said he was going to do in order to get elected.....again....I hope he succeeds....it's in my best interest.
  

• bloc said on Nov 13, 2008....

  Wow, McCain was lying about torture. Really? That's a very very serious lie, worse than any other lie we heard during the whole election, if you are correct.

• D6fer said on Nov 13, 2008....

  he thought that it is popular belief .....deep down I don't think he believes it.
  
  btw....he lost....get over it....I did
  

• sheltercrow said on Nov 13, 2008....

  Proud to be an American and provide a quiet windfall for U.S. banks.
  
  "In the midst of this late-September drama, the Treasury Department issued a five-sentence notice that attracted almost no public attention" that "give American banks a windfall of as much as $140 billion."
  
  The Treasury Department, "as a backdoor way of providing aid to banks," seems not to have had the "authority to repealed a 22-year-old law that Congress passed" contained in "Section 382 of the tax code."
  

• SeanRenaud said on Nov 13, 2008....

  To be fair D6 a lot of Democrats/Liberals have a lot of respect for McCain and some even believe that McCain 2000 (who would have lost in the primaries in 2008 just as he did in 2000) would have beaten Obama.

  I know I can't be the only one with the outside hope that McCain will get some important position within the Obama administration.

  Yeah he lost, I've been over it for six months (btw please give ALIENated the memo that your side lost) but since many of us want him on the team it would be nice to trust him.

  On that note I do trust him.  I don't have a reason to think he lied about his stance on torture and I take people at face value unless given a specific reason not too.

• sheltercrow said on Nov 13, 2008....

  No matter how you slice it an investigation into the Bush administration's "brutal interrogation policies" is already in the works. McCain in the Obama administration? Right. He already has announced that lobbyists need not apply. McCain is nothing without that pack of maggots.
  
  
  Obama's plans for probing Bush torture
  
  Nov. 13, 2008 | WASHINGTON -- With growing talk in Washington that President Bush may be considering an unprecedented "blanket pardon" for people involved in his administration's brutal interrogation policies, advisors to Barack Obama are pressing ahead with plans for a nonpartisan commission to investigate alleged abuses under Bush.

• sheltercrow said on Nov 13, 2008....

  McCain... the conscience he put on hold... and you want this "thing" to be in Obama's administration? Take a read with the link posted to see what your man is doing. See how he now supports Saxby Chambliss who attacked Max Cleland as unpatriotic, the same Max Cleland "who left three limbs on the battlefield."
  
  
  In case anyone was wondering whether John McCain has found that lost claim check for the conscience he put on hold when he started getting serious about making a 2008 presidential run, the answer from Georgia Thursday was a resounding "no."
  
  Six years ago, McCain bluntly decried the manner in which Saxby Chambliss got himself elected to the Senate. Despite the fact that Chambliss was a fellow Republican, McCain objected to the tenor of the 2002 campaign that the Georgian had run against Democratic Senator Max Cleland.
  
  [...]
  
  On Thursday he traveled to Georgia to campaign for the reelection of Saxby Chambliss, the man who immediate previous campaign the old, honorable John McCain decried as "worse than disgraceful."
  

• D6fer said on Nov 14, 2008....

  Dragging the Bush administration through the mud with investigations would be a mistake on Obama's part........while Bush has low approval numbers, many Americans regard his methods of protecting this nation post 9/11 as effective and necessary......If Obama truly wants to unite the country, that is not the way to do it......I know that liberals are hell bent on having an investigation and scandal on a Republican President that will "settle the score" over the Clinton debacle.....but it will really only deepen the devide between Americans on opposite sides of the political spectrum.

• bloc said on Nov 14, 2008....

  right, we should look the other way about torture. LOL. More double standards for america which is the last thing we need.

• D6fer said on Nov 14, 2008....

  They didn't torture......compared to what McCain went through....they didn't torture at all.

• SeanRenaud said on Nov 14, 2008....

  I don't think that's how this works D6.

• D6fer said on Nov 14, 2008....

  I know........liberals and the media have set the tone for what constitutes torture over the past 5 years or so.....had water boarding been done during VietNam.....no one would have cared.....there is a stark contrast between it and real torture.

• bloc said on Nov 14, 2008....

  actually many of the things done to McCain were exactly the same as those authorized by Bush. 

• bloc said on Nov 14, 2008....

  According to Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., himself a torture victim during the Vietnam War, the water board technique is a "very exquisite torture" that should be outlawed.

  ...

  Water boarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in Vietnam 40 years ago. A photograph that appeared in The Washington Post of a U.S. soldier involved in water boarding a North Vietnamese prisoner in 1968 led to that soldier's severe punishment.

  "The soldier who participated in water torture in January 1968 was court-martialed within one month after the photos appeared in The Washington Post, and he was drummed out of the Army," recounted Darius Rejali, a political science professor at Reed College.

  Earlier in 1901, the United States had taken a similar stand against water boarding during the Spanish-American War when an Army major was sentenced to 10 years of hard labor for water boarding an insurgent in the Philippines.

  "Even when you're fighting against belligerents who don't respect the laws of war, we are obliged to hold the laws of war," said Rejali. "And water torture is torture."

  ...

  During World War II both Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, and the officers of the Gestapo,[54] the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture.[55] During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred. This included waterboarding, by the method of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach.[56][57]

  Chase J. Nielsen, one of the U.S. airmen who flew in the Doolittle raid following the attack on Pearl Harbour, was subjected to waterboarding by his Japanese captors.[58] At their trial for war crimes following the war, he testified "Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I’d get my breath, then they’d start over again... I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death".[30]

• D6fer said on Nov 14, 2008....

  sounds a lot different than the methods I have heard were used on terrorists like Khalid Sheikh Mohamed....also sounds like it went on much longer and was life threatening.

• sheltercrow said on Nov 15, 2008....

  Dfer:
  
  "many Americans regard his methods of protecting this nation post 9/11 as effective and necessary"
  
  Your "many Americans"  is a minority getting smaller and smaller (see Tracking the Numbers 2007 and President Bush: Job Ratings).
  
  "Dragging the Bush administration through the mud with investigations would be a mistake on Obama's part"
  
  Hardly. The first major mistake that Clinton made was he 'buried the hatchet' concerning Bush senior and he paid the price. (The Clinton record verses junior is without question better. see Bill Clinton vs. George W. Bush)
  
  
  

• sheltercrow said on Nov 15, 2008....

  Dfer: Have you ever considered what the U.S. military and their proxies did to the Vietnamese civilians? How many napalm runs did McCain make? When they didn't torture them they killed them by the thousands.
  
  
  The United States bombed cities and villages filled with civilians in terror raids directed against the people. ...John McCain was a U.S. pilot during that war who flew over 20 bombing missions against just these sorts of targets.
  
  It does not seem to have occurred to those in the journalistic world why someone like McCain, who incinerated Vietnamese civilians by dropping napalm on them from 35,000 feet, should be exempt from scrutiny.
  

• sheltercrow said on Nov 15, 2008....

  Watch these two CSPAN programs and ask yourself again. Are You Proud To Be An American Now?
  
  House Oversight Subcmte. Hearing on Foreclosure Prevention
  
  
  Treasury Interim Asst. Sec. Neel Kashkari went to Capitol Hill to explain changes to the $700 billion Federal Intervention Plan, which no longer included buying troubled assets. Chairman Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) held a hearing to verify that funds are being used to combat foreclosures.
  
  
  Senate Banking Cmte. Hearing on Applying the Financial Rescue
  
  
  Banking executives discuss how they are using Treasury Department funds as part of the financial rescue. Consumer advocates also testify at this Senate Banking Cmte., chaired by Sen. Chris Dodd (D-CT).

• D6fer said on Nov 15, 2008....

  war is hell shelter.....and it evolves I guess....as far as the U.S. goes anyway.....who uses smartbombs now to minimize civilian loses? The U.S.
  Who else does? hmmmmmm......nobody.......well.....our allies I guess when they actually pull one of their dusty planes out of the hangar.
  

• sheltercrow said on Nov 15, 2008....

  Dfer: Using smart bombs. Israel come to mind (they got 1,000 bunker-busters). And they use them on civilians too. Saudi Arabia is getting it's share too.
  
  Anyway. Something to sooth your nerves.
  
  The Myth of the Democratic Filibuster Proof Senate

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