• SeanRenaud said on Oct 27, 2008....

  While I'm 100% certain that this isn't the case here.

  If a state, say Alaska, voted to invest in an industry with their tax dollars, and said industry turned a profit and said industry in turn paid dividends to it's taxpayers (investors) is it still socialism?

• sheltercrow said on Oct 27, 2008....

  All states invest in business. Thats what tax abatements and eminent domain are all about.
  
  
  A reduction of taxes or an exemption from taxes granted by a local government on a piece of real property for a specified length of time.
  
  tax abatement Finance Definition
  
  
  A temporary suspension of property taxation, generally for a spe-cific period of time. Governments use abatements as an economic development tool. For example, a tax abatement may be given to a developer or building owner who builds or makes improvements to buildings in certain areas. Abatements also may be used to encourage companies to locate in a specific area, or offered as an incentive to stop businesses from moving out of a specific area. Abatements up to 100 percent are offered by governments to certain companies for a limited time.
  
  
  Beorge W. Bush made a fortune on tax abatements and eminent domain in the Texas Ranger Stadium scam.
  
  Bush Condemned Property Via Eminent Domain to Build Rangers Stadium - And Made $14 Million Off the Deal
  
  Bush and The Texas Land Grab
  
  How George W. Bush Scored Big With the Texas Rangers
  
  
  

• bloc said on Oct 27, 2008....

  @sean
  
  it depends who you ask. I'm trying to get noecons to be consistent in their use of words. McCain/Palin keep saying that Obama's "spread the wealth" is socialism. If it is, then Palin is a giant socialist too. And a hypocrite.
  

• sheltercrow said on Oct 27, 2008....

  Republicans call it Americanism if they do it. They call it socialism if the democrats do it. In the dictionary it is called theft and fraud.
  
  Technically...
  
  
  Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society.
  
  
  "State or collective ownership" does not refer to the legal "theft and fraud" done by and for corporations. Unless of course we have become so imbued with corporate ideology that we cannot tell the difference between "state" and "corporation." That is what we are really speaking of here.
  
  Technically... egalitarian is defined as
  
  
  Affirming, promoting, or characterized by belief in equal political, economic, social, and civil rights for all people.
  
  
  That, sadly, is no where to be seen.
  

• bloc said on Oct 27, 2008....

  @shelter
  exactly
  
  "Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society."
  
  Sarah Palin
  "we’re set up, unlike other states in the union, where it’s collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs."

• sheltercrow said on Oct 27, 2008....

  Read carefully these words. Who owns the land from which BP takes the oil?
  
  Offshore Drilling
  
  
  On November 1, 2001, then Interior Secretary Gale Norton and her senior advisor for Alaska affairs, former Alaska State Senator and oil industry insider, Drue Pearce, announced that "the first oil from federal waters off Alaska" had been produced "at the BP Exploration Northstar project," which "became the first outer continental shelf development project since federal offshore leasing began in 1976 off Alaska" and is "the first buried subsea pipeline in the Arctic to be used for full-time production. The pipeline is buried 7-11 feet below the seafloor to avoid ice impacts."
  
  "The Northstar project is a federal-state unit located about 12 miles northwest of Prudhoe Bay in the Alaskan Beaufort Sea and includes three federal and five state leases. About 16 percent of the Northstar reserves are allocated to federal leases and would represent approximately $120 million in federal royalty in future years. The federal leases are also within the OCS boundaries that entitle the state of Alaska to receive 27 percent of federal revenues. BP holds a 98 percent working interest in the field. Murphy Oil Corporation holds a 2 percent working interest."
  
  
  For citizens to extract tax revenue from these Federal and state lands is not socialism.
  
  The problem with all this is BP. No matter how much it pays in royalties and taxes it will never cover the cost of the damage, and cleanup, that BP itself has caused.
  
  
  BP was named by Mother Jones Magazine as one of the "ten worst corporations" in both 2001 and 2005 based on its environmental and human rights records. In 1991 BP was cited as the most polluting company in the US based on EPA toxic release data. Since branding itself an environmentally sound corporation in 1997, BP has been charged with burning polluted gases at its Ohio refinery (for which it was fined $1.7 million), and in July 2000 BP paid a $10 million fine to the EPA for its management of its US refineries. According to PIRG research, between January 1997 and March 1998, BP was responsible for 104 oil spills. BP patented the Dracone Barge to aid in oil spill clean-ups across the world.
  
  BP: A Legacy of Aparthied, Pollution and Exploitation
  

• sheltercrow said on Oct 27, 2008....

  And of course they have a record of deceit...
  
  
  November 16, 2005: Energy CEOs Lied to Congress about Meeting with Cheney Task Force, White House Document Proves
  
  
  A White House document shows that oil company executives lied in recent Senate hearings when they denied meeting with Vice President Cheney’s energy task force (the National Energy Policy Development Group—see May 16, 2001) in 2001. The document, obtained by the Washington Post, shows that officials from ExxonMobil, Conoco (before it merged with Phillips), Shell Oil, and British Petroleum met with the task force (see March 22, 2001).
  
  [...]
  

• sheltercrow said on Oct 27, 2008....

  All this fake socialism has greater concern. It warps any (small d) democratic impulse to control these enormous problems.
  
  Beating the Oil Drum
  
  
  Derrick Jackson of the Boston Globe marvels at the irony of presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama attacking oil and gas companies for skyrocketing prices while taking thousands in campaign contributions from these same companies. Campaign cash from the oil industry keeps presidential and congressional campaigns alike churning -- it's no wonder debate about their policies seems so conflicted.
  
  Clinton and Obama are just today's most visible recipients of this campaign cash -- many other prominent lawmakers embroiled in controversy have found themselves explaining away the oil slicks on their campaign accounts:
  
  
  Historically, political contributions from the oil companies are owned by the Republicans. All top 20 recipients of cumulative contributions from Exxon Mobil since 1990 are Republicans with President Bush at the top, according to the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics.
  
  [...]
  
  In the 2008 election cycle the second-biggest recipient of contributions from Exxon after the $39,730 for Republican Senator John Cornyn, Republican of Texas, is Obama at $23,550. Clinton is in fourth place at $15,700. Both are ahead of the $8,450 for John McCain, the virtual nominee of the Republican Party.
  
  Then there’s Chevron. The all-time leader in contributions from that company since 1990 is former California congressman Richard Pombo. Pombo was ousted from his House seat in 2006 in a fierce campaign by environmentalists enraged by his attempts to gut the Endangered Species Act.
  
  But guess who is now number three in money from Chevron in the 2008 cycle? Clinton, at $9,350. Obama is seventh, at $7,263. Again, both are ahead of McCain’s $5,500.
  
  How about British Petroleum? Its top-three all-time recipients in contributions since 1990 are Representative Don Young of Alaska, Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska, and Bush (uh, could that have anything to do with drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge?). But look now who’s doing the drilling. The number two recipient in the current cycle is Obama at $10,196, more than double what BP has given to Stevens.
  
  
  Oil's hard to wash out, but if we want to have a real discussion about gas prices, environmental policy, and fuel efficiency we're going to have to wash out the influence of oil money on our elections.
  

• ALIENated said on Oct 27, 2008....

  
  How is getting a dividend from state resources anything like raising taxes
  on everyone? How about if we drill here and offshore and put those taxes
  in the treasury so we can keep our money instead of sending it to our
  enemies? And remember Clinton promised about the same tax plan as
  Obama and then raised taxes on everyone, like any good Democrat does.
  Keep turning your blind eye to Obama. Your hatred of Bush is going to 
  give you someone who really knows how to take your rights away. You
  will long for Bush eventually. Marx my words. With Carter, we sat in
  gasoline lines because there was no gasoline. With Obama we will be
  standing in food lines, waiting for our handout because his stupid plans
  have totally wrecked our economy. Marx my words. Democratic ideas
  like the ones that brought us our current financial crisis (just let people
  buy houses they cannot afford with no down payment) are just the
  beginning. Obama being president would be bad enough. Throw in a
  Democrat congress and I smell total disaster. Marx my words.
  
  

• sheltercrow said on Oct 28, 2008....

  The drunk Joe McCarthy doing Alien (From DailyKosTV):
  
  

• winterslight said on Oct 28, 2008....

  i may be wrong but the money she gave back was when gas went up so high. makeing them more in taxes that was not for seen in the years budge. so what she do she gave it back to the people in her state.. why not i dont see a problem with it..... it would be nice to see a state go here u go thanks for liveing here.  but i belive thats  were i heard the money come from.............

• sheltercrow said on Oct 28, 2008....

  Alien: "keep our money instead of sending it to our enemies?"
  
  What is this "our" thing?
  

• bloc said on Oct 28, 2008....

  @winter
  
  First, I don't necessarily have a problem with what she did. I'm trying to get the hypocrites like alien to stop being hypocrites. If Obama is a socialist then so is Palin.
  
  On the actual issue, she gave the money back while borrowing money to pay for government projects so it wasn't a surplus that she was returning.
  

• SeanRenaud said on Oct 28, 2008....

  What is this "our" thing?
   
  Its the money we are spending on oil.  Also our taxes. 

• sheltercrow said on Oct 28, 2008....

  SR: Unless these bogus "our" and "we" things can be articulated what is the purpose of using them? There as nebulous as is all empty headed slogan-speak. Ready made for employment by those that have no clue.
  

• ready2g0 said on Oct 28, 2008....

  This shows that they are running out of attacking points. Few weeks ago they literally took the words "lipstick on a pig", and now, "spread the wealth" -- which is also known as graduated income tax.

  How about we use out own guns to protect ourselves so we dont need police?

  How about city offers no park? We pay to enter private parks.

  How about there is no library? we buy out own books.

  sounds like an excellant non-social society.

   

• sheltercrow said on Oct 28, 2008....

  Oops
  
  SR: Unless these bogus "our" and "we" things can be articulated what is the purpose of using them? [They're] nebulous as is all empty headed slogan-speak. Ready made for employment by those that have no clue.

• redryder said on Oct 29, 2008....

  republicans are very good at masking their arguments or stands on issues.  They have far too many of the Christian right buying into their claiming to be the party of family values.  McCain who claims to be pro-life said in 1999 if his daughter were to become pregnant, a descision on whether to have an abortion would be hers to make.  It seems to me that is pro-choice, not pro-life.  The republican party exists for one thing and one thing only, to protect the interests of the wealthy.    Note:  After he began his quest for the white house he has become a pro-lifer, now if that is not hypocritical, I don't know what is.

• sheltercrow said on Oct 29, 2008....

  Imagine. A family the size of Alaska Governor Sarah Palin's household will receive $19,416.

• sheltercrow said on Oct 31, 2008....

  I apologize if I intrude here.
  
  Since I don't blog here anymore I thought I might list an article written by someone that actually investigated the Rashid Khalidi thing for what it's worth.
  
  John McCain's witch-hunt by Eric Alterman in the guardian.co.uk
  

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