• beyondtheveil said on Oct 18, 2008....

  d6- Its really too bad, he didn't ask for this. It also would have been better if he hadn't talked to the media (not to blame him for the frenzy).
  
  I think the debate caused this to happen. I was told McCain mentioned his name 15 times and was mentioned a total of 20. Then everybody was talking about him. Which media are you talking about, all of them?
  

• SeanRenaud said on Oct 18, 2008....

  1.  Who he is is completely irrelevant and should have been ignored.
  2.   The question he asked affects very few Americans, which is sorta the point.  Very, VERY few of us make 250k or more.  He's not likely to.  The reality of his situation (and the reality for most Americans)  goes like this.
   
  Obama if I win the lottery you're tax. . . no wait 10k a month is only 120k a year. . .well if I get a decet job AND I win the lottery your tax will effect me is that true?
   
  Obama:  Damn right.
   
  Actually it would be nice if Obama had been that clear.
   
   

• husbandhater said on Oct 18, 2008....

  I just want to know WHAT in the FUCK is so IMPORTANT about this Joe guy? He just hit the ultimate pay dirt on a farce( If this wasn't so stupid at this particular time period due to our economy it would be brilliant). He is not a license plumber and is no where near owning a business. And yet the McCain campaign calls this idiot up(STILL) and ask him to campaign with them? I guess that couple of thou he owes in taxes will get paid off soon now.
   
  I say ignore his lying ass and get back to the real issues and the real people effected by them. This is what the press and company get. IGNORE and keep going as we are down to the wire on this one. And all that stuff that Sean just said. 

• mobil said on Oct 18, 2008....

  HH I think you need to get fired up a little here, you have no passion for this election. C'mon girl don't be a wall flower, speak your mind.

• SeanRenaud said on Oct 18, 2008....

  The point HH is that all that stuff about him shouldn't matter.  It's who he represents.  Is the American about to make it it big (monstrously big really) and if he will be taxed more if he makes over a certain amount.  Obama should have simply answered.  Yes, that's what I said.  If you make more than 250k you will be paying higher taxes. . .well actually the taxes you were paying in 1999 before Bush rolled back your taxes but still, yes you will pay higher taxes.  Next question.
   
  He's really having a hard time being a dick.

• mobil said on Oct 18, 2008....

  Either that, or he's a dick just having a really hard time.

• SeanRenaud said on Oct 18, 2008....

  LoL. 

• TinSoldier said on Oct 18, 2008....

  Yup, the guy is not a licensed plumber, does not own his own business, does not make $250K a year, and has had a lien put against his house for failure to pay back taxes.
  
  
  Just the kind of guy we want as the poster boy for small business owners!

• husbandhater said on Oct 18, 2008....

  LOL,lmao at Tins' comment. Just the kind of guy we want as a Poster boy for anything. A liar and a misrepresenting cheat. Is that what John McCain is all about? I guess Fake plumber Joe should go campaigning after all with him.

• pickersplock said on Oct 18, 2008....

  Ok, ignoring the spin!
   
  Joe never said, "Hi I'm a licensed plumber.........blah blah blah."
   
  He asked a question, "I'm getting ready to buy a company that makes.........."
   
   
   

  
  http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418

   

  read the entire article, this is a very good lesson in how the media, on both sides, spins everything.

   

• bloc said on Oct 18, 2008....

  "24 hours after the Presidential debate, the media dug up more dirt on this "Joe the plumber" guy than they have all year long on Palin himself!"
  
  there, fixed that for you. It be nice if she gave as many interviews as Joe. Shouldn't we be able to make an informed decision in an election?
  
  @pickers
  "Joe never said, "Hi I'm a licensed plumber.........blah blah blah."
  
  Nope, he didn't, but that's exactly how McCain tried to portray him. McCain was trying to orchestrate a bait and switch. Portray him as a lowly plumber, but when talking about Obama's economic plan treat him as if he's rich.
  

• pickersplock said on Oct 18, 2008....

  The key word there is McCain!
   
  Listen, that poor guy just asked a simple question. 
   
  He was probably asked, "What do you do for a living?"
  He probably said, "I work for a plumbing company" and that is the truth.
   
  Thus he became Joe the plumber......
  I feel bad for the guy.
   
  No one should be digging into his taxes, or his personal life.
   
  On either side!

• bloc said on Oct 18, 2008....

  very true, but I don't think either of the campaigns are digging into those things ;)
  
  It's a tricky situation. If a politician holds up a regular person as an example of why their policies are better then isn't it the job of the media to fact check that claim?
  

• SeanRenaud said on Oct 18, 2008....

  I think Joe the plumber should be able to work fine as a hypothetical though and could easily have been handled as such.

• bloc said on Oct 18, 2008....

  yeah, except McCain was trying to do a bait and switch. He was making claims based on a person that makes over $250k/year while calling him a plumber. How does one respond go that as a hypothetical?

• D6fer said on Oct 18, 2008....

  It's a tricky situation. If a politician holds up a regular person as an example of why their policies are better then isn't it the job of the media to fact check that claim?
  
  As Sean said it shouldn't matter if the guy is legit or not......the story is not in what Joe said, but what Obama replied....."I think sharing the wealth is a good thing"  he showed his true colors with that statement.....he's a pro tax liberal.......the real lie is when he says that he is going to cut taxes.
  
  This post did exactly what I expected it would.......show how worried you libs are about the Obama train leaving the tracks!
  

• D6fer said on Oct 18, 2008....

  Shouldn't the job of the media also be to interview people like William Ayers and ask him some tough questions? Maybe dig through his trash?

• kelly said on Oct 19, 2008....

  Good idea.  I'll be no one in the media has ever asked William Ayers a tough question in all these years.  But you'd never know if you didn't simply Google his name and see the 867,000 search results.

• stopmediabias said on Oct 19, 2008....

  The main question here is if someone like Joe busts his ass and works his way up to250k a year why should he be punished for that with ridiculous taxes.  Also  he going to pass these taxes onto his employees and his business which discourages growth. 

  I think the Dems are trying to make Joe the issue, Joe just unearthed the issue a lot of Americans are not getting.

  On the other hand if Joe were to get a tax cut he could increase his business, hire more tax paying employees, and increase overall growth which increases revenue to the government. 

  When Obama starts talking about "sharing the wealth" how on earth is that going to promote growth?

• SeanRenaud said on Oct 19, 2008....

  1.  Since I'm slightly confused am I one of the Obama people worried about the train leaving the tracks?  I don't really care I'm just curious.  The fact is that shy of a meteor hitting the train momentum will carry him through.  You bloody right wingers really  need to focus on making sure that Congress doesn't become fillabuster proof for the first time in decades (I'm still researching but quite possibly the first time in any our life times)
   
  2.  What Joe said should be treated as a hypothetical, the fact is though that 250k a year is a HUGE sum of money and presenting Joe the Plumber as an "average" American is dishonest.  They may as well have had Britney Spears trot out and say "Well like every so often I have like a hit single that goes platinum and I make like a million dollars, will your tax plan effect me?" 
   
  Joe the plumber was chosen to show that an "average" American can break through into Obama's proposed tax plan.  Which while possible is unlikely.  No plumber, anywhere is making 250k.  Not in the real world.  Here's the math encase you give a shit.  250,000/365= 685.  685, that's how much he needs to make each day of the year.  No weekends, no holidays, no days where nobody needs him.   685/10=68.50.  Assuming Joe is a real motivator and works ten hours every day he needs to charge 68.50 an hour and get ten hours of work every single fucking day of the year.  I gauran-fucking-tee that few if any plumbers are making even in the neighborhood of 250k.
   
  The fact SMB is that if Joe had a tax cut, could keep more of his money he'd pass it on to his employees and to us the consumers.  It's common sense.  But 8 years of wages remaining flat has proven that in economics common sense doesn't apply. 
   
  When Obama starts "sharing" the wealth by making sure people don't go bankrupt paying for medical. . .they will be free to spend that money in other places like on Joe the Plumber.  That money they were spending in one place won't magically dissapear you know. 
   
  For the  record if we were spending the same or less of our GDP on health care as the rest of the world I'd wholly disagree with UHC.  But we don't, we don't even pay middle of the road, we pay the most, and by a decent margin too.  So it's not that UHC is a good idea, it's that our idea is horrid and functions almost purely on willpower and brute force. 

• TinSoldier said on Oct 19, 2008....

  No one wants to "punish" Joe the Plumber for being successful -- if he ever gets to that point. And it's not like taxes would jump 100% from making $249K a year to making $250K a year. Not to mention that as a businessman if his company was making so much money it should be elementary to incorporate and protect his own personal income and assets from those of the corporation.
  
  
  Oh, and pickersplock: thanks for sharing the video. I thought that Obama explained the situation very clearly. I hadn't really had a chance to watch the video before, and the first I had heard of "Joe the Plumber" was when McCain brought him up during the debate.

• bloc said on Oct 19, 2008....

  "The fact SMB is that if Joe had a tax cut, could keep more of his money he'd pass it on to his employees and to us the consumers.  It's common sense. "
  
  common sense if you forget about the real world. You already gave the example of britany spears. She isn't exactly a company with an HR department that increases hiring when more money comes in. Someone I know recently sold a website for quite a few million. He made the site solely on his own and he certainly isn't ramping up hiring now that he made a bunch of money. He never hired in the first place.
  
  "The main question here is if someone like Joe busts his ass and works his way up to250k a year why should he be punished for that with ridiculous taxes. "
  
  This assumes something that isn't true. Warren Buffet pays about 17% of his income in taxes. That is a far lower percentage than the middle class pays in taxes. Obama's plan would make it more fair and McCains would make it worse because he is proposing another drop in the capital gains tax.
  
  The argument that giving the super rich even more money would create jobs may be true, but it's also true that giving more money to the middle class would create jobs since they'd spend it. I support the idea of reducing taxes on the middle class while returning the super wealthy to where they were before Bush. It's clear that america agrees with this idea as well so I won't waste time arguing it.
  
  

• bloc said on Oct 19, 2008....

  @tin
  
  you are absolutely right, Obama explained it very well. It's clear that those complaining have no idea what his plan actually is. It's a 3% increase only on the revenue above 250k! That's a small increase to pay for a cut for the middle class.
  
  This truly highlights the difference between republicans and democrats. The republicans believe in giving money to the rich and hoping that it trickles down. The democrats believe in giving it to the middle/lower class and hoping that it trickles up.
  

• bloc said on Oct 19, 2008....

  "Mr. Obama is now a socialist, because he dares to suggest that maybe we ought to look at the tax structure that we have. Taxes are always a redistribution of money. Most of the taxes that are redistributed go back to those who pay them, in roads and airports and hospitals and schools. And taxes are necessary for the common good. And there's nothing wrong with examining what our tax structure is or who should be paying more or who should be paying les, and for us to say that makes you a socialist is an unfortunate characterization that I don't think is accurate."
  
  Colin Powell
  
  The part I highlighted is important. The super wealthy, those that own businesses, get more use out of our infrastructure than the common person. Think about it, they use the courts more, they use roads more (shipping), they use the communications systems more, etc, etc, etc.
  

• stopmediabias said on Oct 23, 2008....

  Are you people really serious?  The greatest growth in all of history came from cutting taxes.  It happened during Reagan and it happened during George W.  Can we cut the crap with the tax cuts for the rich?  We are all part of a system and if you cut taxes then it is obvious the people paying the most of the taxes will get the higher tax cut.

  I wish I could understand how raising taxes on anyone is fair, especially when you are giving it to other people who don't deserve it.  We can do everything we need to do without raising any taxes.  What is so great about socialism?  Look at our schools, look at our roads, private business always out-performs the government because if they don't do their job they get fired and competition takes over.

  Obama's 95% of Americans will get a tax cut is such a blatant misrepresentation, it is not a tax cut, it is a hand-out.  Big companies and smaller companies who make a profit of over 250K, do you think these companies are going to pay taxes?  NO they are going to pass the taxes to employees and business.  This stunts growth and hurts the economy, I can't imagine how you can't see this. 

  Sean my God, read something, anything about UHC in other countries, you are so missing the point here.

• SeanRenaud said on Oct 23, 2008....

  1.  especially when you are giving it to other people who don't deserve it.
   
  You're absolutely right.  When Bill Gates wants to get Windows 2008 to the store he ships it in on private roads.  You're right we don't spend roughly 10% of our income on the military.  Or are you claiming that without the military China would invade and make slaves of the common folk instead of ransacking the rich?  At the very least both are in danger.  You're probably right that the police forces don't protect the rich at all.  I mean crime runs rampant in Beverly Hills. 
   
  Are we even going to start talking about subsidies?  If government is going to stop giving money we should start with not paying people who don't need it at all, we should close the gaps that allow for the rich to avoid taxation, we should tarriff those outside this nation especially those who moved for that specific purposes. 
   
  2.  Can you prove we can do everything we need to without raising taxes or is that pure conjecture?  Don't answer, it's rhetorical.  Two presidential candidates with an army of advisors can't figure it out.  The only difference in their plans is one "claims" he'll cut off all government spending (yeah right cut off the military?  That'll last all of one afternoon) and the other claims he'll go in and trim off what he feels are unnecessary expensives.  Chances are both are lying or at atleast over stating their plans but one plan is sane and one. . .well one is so nuts that it'll be forgotten once this whole thing is over one way or another.
   
  Our roads, I've seen little evidene that toll roads are better maintained.  If anything the serve the basic purpose of a carpool lane.  Its eliminates some of the pressure from everything else but it's not inherently better.  Besides in a world where roads weren't publicly funded we'd have one street per city.  From factory A to retailer A.  Unless we got lucky with the Post Office. . .but more likely we'd just all use PO Boxes as no alternative would exist.
   
  Our schools are fucked for a number of reasons, but since I would rate socialism as one of the biggest contributing factors I'll grant you that.
   
  Private dosn't always out perform government, particularly not on large projects.  I mean. . .we did send the US military over didn't we, we don't use a mercenary force, I mean as our primary forces, obviously we are supplemented with Blackwater and the like.  Or are you claiming Blackwater to be BETTER than the US military.
   
  UPS and FedEx rock for packages but their prices are pretty obscene and I don't know a single soul that uses them for standard mail, not even for bills.  They are used when it absolutely, positively must be delivered over night but other than that. . .yeah they fucking suck.
   
  To touch back on our schools there are enough private schools that prices competition should have forced public schools to compete (As UPS and FedEx forced the USPS to step their game up)  It hasn't.  Why?
   
  3.  Obama's 95% tax cut is barely a misrepresentation.  It's a lot closer to a lie.
   
  4.  I assume by read something about the UHC in other countries you are implying that I'm unaware of the waiting time in the UK (for elective surgeries, not emergency) or how in Canada they ship excess patients down to us because their system is backed up and they are begining to move towards a more capitalistic system.
   
  This is where your disconnect is.  Why does UHC have to exist outside of capitalism?  "Your" candidate wants to give a 5000.00 voucher to each American to spend on medical expenses however we see fit.  Since we are spending the money as we see fit explain how this interfers with the market competition.  My big problem with this plan is that my chances of needing 5k this year are slim, same with next year or the year after.  But sooner or later I'm going to have a problem that costs more than 5k.  It seems to me to make more sense to give quite a bit less and let it roll over annually.  (I could go into more detail about my plan but I feel it is irrelevant to the conversation at hand)
   
  The point about small bussiness is. . .stupid.  On everybodie's part, mostly because of what words "mean" rather than their definition.  Small business doesn't mean what most people envision when they hear that word.  I'm not a small bussiness.  I'm self-employed.  That Ma and Pops store on the corner?  They aren't a small bussiness either.  They are self employed and might have an employee.  Hell due to the way franchising works the vast majority of McDonalds "owners" are techincally small business owners.  So we've got this term that the candidates know both the real meaning of AND what most people think of when they hear these words. 
   
  It's pretty much like walking into a wedding and screaming that the groom is the gayest man you've ever seen. 
   
  Youre idea that they pass taxes onto employess and businesses is. . .niave.  It's based on numbers yes but assumes something that clearly isn't true.  That every (or even most) businesses are run perfectly.  When gas prices rocketed UPS didn't (immediatly) raise prices or lower wages they became more http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=3005890.  Some companies went paperless and demanded employees get direct deposit. 
   
  So taxes getting passed immediately to the consumer presuposes that all the companies in a given business are all run with perfect efficiency and can find no other way to keep their expenses down to maintain a similar price point because if one does the others will have to.  That's what capitalism is all about.
   
   

• stopmediabias said on Oct 24, 2008....

  The taxes issue.  Idiots like Paul Krugman walk around like zombies claiming cutting taxes loses money for the government, which is does but on the other side less taxes helps business expand which increases growth.  Do a comparison of GDP growth of the Clinton years versus GDP growth of President Bush.  No-one dares mention if our little financial crisis happened during Clinton what would have happened, or if President Bush hadn't had to deal with all the turmoil from terrorism, natural disasters,etc.

  With UHC, imagine people who abuse the system now what they would do with UHC.  Hangnails, hangovers, stomach aches, doctors are free so who cares we can go to the doctor for anything.  This is why every time UHC is tried (Hawaii by a Republican recently and it failed) Capitalism provides restraint because even though we have emergency rooms where anyone can get treated at anytime they know they are eventually going to have to pay for it.  A massive section of our electorate doesn't pay hardly any taxes, so lets give them free health care paid by people who pay all the taxes, how is that fair?  Outside of the legitimate poor and disabled people should earn what they get.

  The school issue is a joke.  We pay taxes, have no choice, and our schools are failing.  All schools should be private so when teachers fail we can fire them, so people like Ward Churchell and Bill Ayers can't attach themselves like leaches in tenured positions.  If our schools fail our kids now there is no accountability, nothing to get rid of bad teachers and that is the problem.  Running out of time, back later. 

• SeanRenaud said on Oct 24, 2008....

  1.  The terrorism happened early in Bush's run and we got past it, Katrina is a few years back as well.  We could also debate that this wouldn't have happened under Clinton's watch because the CDS hadn't yet passed and may not have passed if he'd been in charge.  Without a time machine we can't know.  I'm gonna say he would have vetoed it and you have no way of proving I'm wrong (nor do I have a way of proving I'm right) fact is that this DIDN'T happen under Clinton.
   
  2.  If your main arguement against UHC is abuse of the system there is a very simple fix.  Inverse billing based on the severity of the condition.  Have a heart attack?  You personally pay $25.00s come in with the common cold?  Pay $250.00.   Come in with a hangnail?  Pay $2500.00 dollars. 
   
  Another important note for you to take into account is that lots of people go through the ER and don't pay.  Or where exactly do you think all the money we spend on Health Care goes?  I mean we pay a higher percent than any other nation, where is that money going?
   
  3. Making schools private wouldn't make teachers any more fireable, you are aware of that right?  Teachers are nigh invincible because they have a union so powerful that in many states fucking with teachers is the surest way to make damn sure you don't keep your office. 
   
  Your point on Bill Ayers (unless you know something I don't) is truly laughable.  Regardless of what he did forty years ago, three things are facts.  One he was aquitted, two he was obviously qualified to teach and three he had (until a few months ago) sucessfuly reintigrated into society.  This/your opinion, is one of the biggest things wrong with America today.  If once a person is released from prison (or in this case aquitte albeit on a technicality) they can't serve in positions they are qualified for we really should just do away with the justice system and shoot people in head.  Accused of a crime, bullet to the head, you'll always be a criminal to us.
   
  Our schools are failing but there are a number of factors involved in that, and socialism is the least of them.  I mean we are failing yes but we a failing in comparison to the rest of the world of which all have socialist schools.  We're not failing in comparison to some utopia with strictly private schools. 

• D6fer said on Oct 24, 2008....

  Baby boomers are becoming senior citizens now.......over a third of all of us are overweight......there is going to be a health care crisis that will dwarf this banking crisis .......and you want the same people that caused that mess handling your health care? Old sick people have no worth in a socialist society.....be careful what you wish for.......Washington state has a "death with dignity" law to be voted on in the upcoming election.....I'm not sure how many other states have similar laws....I know Oregon does......it will work hand in hand with the UHC......people will be offered a "buy out" ........"We won't pay for your treatment Mr. Jones, but we will pay to end the suffering if you like"
  

• D6fer said on Oct 24, 2008....

  We have been warning for years that this was a possibility in Oregon. Medicaid is rationed, meaning that some treatments are not covered. But assisted suicide is always covered. And now, Barbara Wagner was faced with that very scenario.
  
  source
  

• bloc said on Oct 24, 2008....

  "there is going to be a health care crisis that will dwarf this banking crisis"
  
  I completely agree with this, but I have no idea what your saying about "the people who created this mess".
  
  Your thing about assisted suicide doesn't make sense to me. First, european countries with UHC have higher life spans than we do. The opposite would be true if you were right.
  
  Second, the situation you describe happens far more often under our current system. People have NO insurance and simple die. It's nonsensical to argue that a system which doesn't provide any insurance to millions of people will allow more old people to live because people with insurance dont' have all treatments covered.
  
  I mean really, it makes no sense.
  

• D6fer said on Oct 24, 2008....

  I was referring to our government.....they caused this banking crisis and I would not want these bureaucrats managing my health care......when government takes control of the health care system they will be calling the shots......who lives, who dies.
  
  You often point to the life expectancy comparison when we talk about UHC.....but you don't want to accept the fact that the other countries count infant deaths differently than we do.....I also think that you have to factor in the wealth of our nation.....with wealth and convenience we have become the fattest nation unfortunately......and that has more to do with early deaths than any circumstance surrounding insurance or lack there of.....I think you could even agree with that right?
  

• D6fer said on Oct 24, 2008....

  as far as the elderly go, they either can afford health care, or they can't.....those that can't, get medicaid.
  

• stopmediabias said on Oct 26, 2008....

  Sean-#1- What I was referring to is Clinton went for the higher tax with limited growth, this is why once the internet bubble burst we slipped into a recession.  President Bush cut 1.8 trillion in taxes and it lead to enormous growth, do you remember all the records the stock market broke.  All of this growth, then comes the crisis, imagine no growth and the crisis. 

  #2-You know that wouldn't work.  If some welfare queen came in to the ER with a severe stomach ache and it was discovered she ate several bean burroitos in the last half hour and then was charged $250 people would be going nuts, if she was black people like Jesse would say she was targeted.  The money going into health care goes to a system that cost to much and is manipulated.  There are so many better ways to fix our system and UHC is not one of them.

  #3-Private schools would hire teachers that are not part of any union.  I can think of a lot of teachers who have no business teaching anyone, as a parent I have no say.  We don't have bad kids we have bad teachers and bad policy that is why our schools are failing.  Bad teachers need to be handled without the use of political correctness as with troubled kids.    

  You guys are hurting yourselves with this Bill Ayers thing.  We don't give a shit about Bill Ayers, what we care about is if John McCain was caught on camera shaking hands with someone who blew up an abortion clinic 40 years ago the left would be going nuts, with Ayers the mainstream press is muffled.  Based on this we shouldn't be called "going negative" when we mention Ayers.  It also matters that Ayers is unrepentant and hates America.  When you want to get into politics you don't start it out with someone like Ayers.   

• SeanRenaud said on Oct 26, 2008....

  1.  Clinton had a minor crisis but point sorta made.
  2.  Let Jesse howl at the wind.  Who gives a shit.
  3.  We have bad kids too.
  4.  Ayers never claimed to hate America.  Again did the perpetrators of the Boston Tea Party hate America or love America?  What about anybody else in the Civil Rights movement?

• bloc said on Oct 26, 2008....

  "All of this growth, then comes the crisis, imagine no growth and the crisis. "
  
  
  But the crisis came in large part because of the growth. The primary driver of the growth, i think, was the "wealth" people got when their home values kept going up. They were borrowing against that wealth and it had to end. If we hadn't had the housing bubble then we wouldn't have had the growth or the crisis. 
  
  
  I like to think about it like this. Freer markets have bigger peaks and lower valleys, while more regulated markets have smaller peaks, but higher valleys. All of us have to figure out where on that spectrum we want to be, and then decide as a nation. 
  
  
  "We don't have bad kids we have bad teachers and bad policy that is why our schools are failing.  "
  
  
  this is absolute bullshit. We have low scores because we as a culture don't value learning, studying, and being intellectual. Hell, just look at your party. 
  
  
  My wife is a teacher and I've seen teh same pattern over and over again. Kid x misses a bunch of school on a regular basis. My wife tells her parents that she isn't doing well and part of the problem is that she misses so much school. Nothing changes. On day, after my wife stops working because of our baby, she runs into the little girl at the mall. The kid runs up to her to say hi, then realizes that she's supposed to be in school and gets nervous. Basically, this mom this mom let her kid skip school regularly, and this was in the 2nd grade.
  
  
  Or there is the frequent kid who is doing poorly and never does their homework. My wife tells the parents taht they need to do the homework with their child because they are struggling and it's important that they do their homework. The parents say "oh, yes, we'll do it". They don't, and the kid stays way behind.
  
  
  don't get me wrong, there are some bad teachers, but they are the minority. 
  
  
  Regarding hate for america, i can tell you who hates america. The founder of the group that Palin's husband is a member of and which palin has attended numerous meetings. Here he is in his own words.
  
  
  "The fires of Hell are glaciers compared to my hate for the American Government, and I won't be buried under their damn flag"

• TinSoldier said on Oct 26, 2008....

  http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html?uc_full_date=20081026
  
  

• beyondtheveil said on Oct 27, 2008....

  bloc-  "this is absolute bullshit. We have low scores because we as a culture don't value learning, studying, and being intellectual."
  
  Truer words may have been said somewhere, I just don't know where at the moment.
  
  You can see this further by reading the articles of what prospective employers are experiencing at job interviews by the ones who did finish college. That centers more around work ethic, but I see it connected directly to what you said.
  

• bloc said on Oct 27, 2008....

  @beyond
  
  yeah, I've been hiring computer science grads for about 5 years now. Most of them don't have any clue that they are doing. They never tried to actually learn it while in college, they just did enough to get by. College is a different beast and I'm at work so I can't rant about it now ;) In short, I'm not sure what role college is supposed to play in our society. Is it supposed to filter out people or should it attempt to teach those enrolled as much as they can or are willing to learn?
  
  

• stopmediabias said on Oct 27, 2008....

  Sean-#4-Are you kidding me?  Ayers posed for a picture in Time standing on top of an American flag, he got a ring from the Vietcong while in Canada, once again your trying to defend this scum.  Would you say he did all these things because he loves America?  Like Martin Luther King or the people in the Boston Tea Party, get serious.

  Bloc-Good point, the housing market did contribute to the growth but was not the complete reason.  Many other facets of the economy held very strong.

  Free markets have higher lower valleys because of poison liberal policies.

  "We have low scores because we as a culture don't value learning, studying, and being intellectual."

  I had a teacher in highschool who was for a lack of better word cruel.  She taught algebra.  I was able to squeek by with a 75 average in her class.  I took college algerbra, much harder than highschool and never dipped below a 90 average.  Teaching is not just knowing the subject is being able to communicate. 

  And sorry nobody values learning, studying, and being an intellectual, all of these are a means to an end.  I've known some incredible intellectuals who were smarter than anyone could imagine but also just fucking dumb.  I value the air I breath, the children I have, the wife I have, the freedom I have etc.. 

  Teachers should be allowed to boot kids who don't belong is schools and parents (as a whole in society) should be allowed to boot teachers who don't belong in teaching.  Teachers should be paid a lot more and be challenged to provide a better service. 

   

• bloc said on Oct 27, 2008....

  you never fail to see the world in black and white.

• beyondtheveil said on Oct 27, 2008....

  bloc- My daughter teaches at a university and says students 'views are skewed' to a point it takes a teacher to understand and her descriptions would run into pages.
  
  I think they (many) learn in majors such as medicine and mathematics because it takes more dedication just to make it through. The rest might be summed up like a few business managers have told me and that is a diploma is no more than 'credentials for trainability'.
  

• D6fer said on Oct 27, 2008....

  Hey.....hate to change the subject to the topic....but.....did Joe the Plumber deserve the treatment the press gave him for asking that question of Obama?

• bloc said on Oct 28, 2008....

  "Joe the Plumber deserve the treatment the press gave him for asking that question of Obama?"
  
  Hm, it wasn't him asking the question that created the attention. It was McCains frequent use of him as justification for McCain's policies. If a presidential candidate holds up a person and says "this person highlights why my policies are better" then I absolutely believe it's the medias job to find out if that is true.
  
  McCain claimed that Obama would raise taxes on Joe the plumber. It's perfectly valid and right to find out if that is true. McCain is the source of the attention he got.
  

• TinSoldier said on Oct 28, 2008....

  Joe the plumber asked Obama a question, which Obama answered in a very detailed and satisfying way, IMO.
  
  
  Then John McCain brought up Joe in the debate as ammunition against Obama. The problem is that the gun was pointed at both McCain and Joe the Plumber instead.
  
  
  *shrug*
  
  
  So, I blame John McCain for his treatment.
  
  
  BTW -- I filled out my ballot last night and my wife filled out hers today and mailed them both.
  
  
  Huzzah for vote-by-mail!!

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