Razulki's tags:
So France helped the US broker the ceasefire deal in Lebanon. Great, wonderful, I'm estatic. It'll be good to have the UN in there to keep Hezbollah from reighning rockets down on Israeli civilians. While they're there they might even accomplish something useful wrt breaking some of the hold Hezbollah has on the area. Except that France, the country that can claim the most interst in Lebanon of all the EU countries since it used to be their colong, is sending only another 200 troops to the "lead" the force.

Wow Fance. Way to walk the walk. (They do so excel at talking one wonders if the halls of power inside of France are lined with nice comfy chairs or perhaps just wheelchairs. I'm not sure but I'm leaning towards the latter.) Why those 200 extra troops are going to do just worlds of good. I'm sure France will be right on top of the whole deal with their thumbs to the pulse of the situation.

Yeah. Right. And perhaps China will embrace democracy this afternoon as well.

The reality of the matter is that France, and the EU in general, lack spine. After having WWI and WWII fought back and force across Europe and then suffering through the Cold War they've forgotten that even though it is at best horrible, and usually horriffic, that there is a time when diplomacy must be persued by other means.

Hezbollah is a group of murderers. They get backing from Syria and Iran and rain artillery designed to cause maximum civilian casualties down upon civilian targets and attempt to barter the lives of Israel's soldiers for the freedoom of murderers locked away in Israeli Prisions. As far as I'm concerned what these people deserve is a pair of rounds to the back of their skull. Anyone that would honestly, and earnestly, defend these peoples "right" to shell civilians can have the same. (9mm rounds are cheap like that.)

Disarming Hezbollah is not going to solve this problem. They'll just buy more weapons from Syria and Iran and come back for more. As long as Hezbollah is allowed to exist this problem will continue. Of course as aethetically appealing as an unrestrained war against Hezbollah is it's not likely to solve the problem either. The end result of that is Israel getting into a large and protracted war that would involve at least Lebanon and Syria and has the potential to turn into a general regional conflict with all the arab nations of the ME dog piliing down onto Israel. I'd rather not see a genocide go down on either side and I'd especially like to see Israel not get backed into a corer such that it feels the need to nuke Mecca, Damascus, Riyadh, and Cairo if it can be helped.

The good solution to the problem would be for the moderate muslims of the region to become empowered and motivated such that they, of their own accord, pushed these monsters out from their midst. That way you either wind up with no more terrorists, because the general populace has erradicated the problem themselves, or a clearly defined target upon which to wage conventional war.

Of course this isn't going to happen.

There's lots of reasons why. First is that the people who rule the majority of the ME countries in question fall into one of several categories. Either they're Facist regimes that actively support and nuture the terrorists as you find in Iran and Syria, or they're governments that lack the ability to control the contents of their own borders such as Lebanon, Afghanistan, Iraq, the UAE, and Pakistan, or it's a situation like exists in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Turkey, and Pakistan where you have a moderately minded government that has to mind the more extremist tendencies of it's populace. No matter how you cut this it means that the existing governments are not going to be the source of any change in culture in the ME. In fact they may be the casue of, or otherwise enabling, such problems.

Then there are the populace's themselves. Here you have several problems. Depending on where you're at you will find varying degrees of poverty, ignorance, religious fundamentalism, and a general banality of evil. Poverty and Ignorance seem to go hand in hand and unfortunately these two can combine with a weak or hostile government to create a nasty death spiral of hate and terror. Fundamentalism is a big problem though and this is one that the Mullahs of the region could solve independent of the governments if they really wanted to. Islam is a religion of peace they say? Well great then the peaceful types can stand up and start saying it. Until they do they're giving tacit approval to the likes of Al-Sadr, Hezbollah, and company by way of their silence.

The Banality of evil is another big part of this. It isn't the first time in modern history that it has come up either. Look at the very genteel anti-semitism of europe that led pretty much every nation there-of to cheerfully hand over their jews to the Nazi's in order to enable the "Final Solution". Look at the "Silent Majority" that backed the gross civil rights violations that went on suppressing the assorted peace movements of the 60's as well. When you look at these events there is a startling similarity and precedent for the things you see going on in the Middle East today.

These terrorists and murderers get labled as "insurgents", "Freedom Fighters", "oppressed minorities" and other PC terms specifically intended to engender sympathy for them while Israel, who is suffering under a continuous assault of terrorist proproptions and genocidal intent, gets chastised for being "dispraportionate" in it's response? When it's telling civilians to leave because they're about to be in a war zone?!?! And it is somehow Israel's fault when these same murderers and terrorists, use civilians as human shields, stage photo opps, and generally show as much respect for human life as you'd get from a rabid bear? I don't think so. This is the banality of evil that makes the truly vile appear somehow less so, or possibly even justified. (Bet you thought I was wandering off topic there. hehehe. Nope.)

What this means, in my opinion, is that the populaces in question are not going to throw the terrorists out of their own accord. It means that if we want the fighting to end that that resolution is going to have to be enforced from without and that force, of an overwhelming and merciless variety, is going to have to be part of the solution.

One of the primary characteristics the terrorists we are dealing with is that they hide amongst the civilian population. They strike from secret and anonymity and may not ever even reveal their presence. With groups like Al-Queda and Islamic Jyhad the only realistis solution you can have to this is for the intelligence services of the world to re-develop the needed "human assets" to take the war to the shadows and kill these people is as targeted and precise a matter as possible. (As in no firing rockets into appartment buildings. The collateral damage generates too many new terrorists for this to be an ultimately worthwhile venture however aethtetically pleasing it may be.)

Hamas, Hezbollah, and company are an entirely different matter. In both cases these groups have specific geographic attachments of which they are either the defacto government or the actual sovereign rulers thereof. A straightforward total war approach is NOT going to remove them from the populace because while they're in charge they don't necessecarily run around in uniforms using conventional tactics. They use a mixture of Guerilla and terrorist tactics to get the job done. Part of the reason for this is that they do not by any means have the capcity to engage any regular army in a stand up fight.

Against these groups there is a few specific strategies that can be used to neutralize a large amount of their power. 1) Invade and occupy the geography that they're based out of. 2a) Undertake a house to house search of that geography and remove all arms and crush all resistance. Even if you create "new" terrorists in the deal you should wipe out much the existing terrorist infrastructure and destroy the vast majority of their conventional weapons. or 2b) Undertake something similar to the blockhouse method used by the British in the Boer War to force the Boer warriors out into the open. This is very costly and manpower inetnesive to do though and hasn't realy ever been atteempted in an urban setting so there's no gaurantee's that it'd work.

Asking the Middle East Nations to fix their problems though is not going to work. The Middle East Nations ARE the problem. Any solution that is going to work is going to be imposed from without and it's going to be messy. Accept that now and get used to it because the bad guys aren't going to stop for anything other than to reload so that they can keep going.


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Comments

  • silverwhisper said on Aug 18, 2006....
    i really won't be participating in this discussion but i'm commenting so that i can follow this from the my conversations tab. this will make for very interesting reading. :>

    ed
  • Razulki said on Aug 18, 2006....
    Assuming anyone bothers to comment. unlike yourself I've only got seven readers. ;)
  • FaithMatters said on Aug 18, 2006....
    All I can say is - Vive le Razulki!
  • bloc said on Aug 18, 2006....
    "Hezbollah is a group of murderers. They get backing from Syria and Iran and rain artillery designed to cause maximum civilian casualties down upon civilian targets and attempt to barter the lives of Israel's soldiers for the freedoom of murderers locked away in Israeli Prisions."

    Who killed more civilians, israel or hezbollah? I agree that hezbollah is a group of fanatics, but let's not be so onesided ok?

    These murderers in Israeli prisons, were they tried for murder? I know that israel is holding somthing like 9000 palestinians in prison a few thousand of whom have not had any sort of trial to show that they are guilty of anything. Many of these were also "kidnapped" from palestine by israel.

    Don't get me wrong, hezbollah and many palestinian terrorists are bad people, but let's not for get the wrongs committed by israel. We can always talk about illegal settlements. If israel could clean up it's act it would have my full support. Until then we'll have what we have had.
  • Razulki said on Aug 18, 2006....
    No Bloc. You are flatly wrong. Israel did not kidnapp any of Hezbollah's fighters. Israel has never negotiated in bad faith and yet here we are less than a week into the ceasefire and it is already apparent that the EU, Lebanon, and Hezbollah have no intention of abiding by the terms of the ceasefire. Any any point in the last 34 days Hezbollah could have stopped the fighting by returning the two soldiers and Israel would not have fired another single round.

    You are aware also that many of the Lebaneese that died were likely killed by Hezbollah after the fact? Or that Hezbollah staged many of the "photo opps" of Israeli destruction, or that Hezbollah actively prevented civilians from fleeing the area because they *knew* Israel was going to be shelling...

    I could fill dozens of pages with the examples of how Israel has been nothing but restrained while the terrorists have bahaved like barbarians at best, and animals at worst.

    I'm sorry Bloc but you're just plain wrong.
  • Razulki said on Aug 18, 2006....
    My sarcasm meeter is on the fritz Faith. What do you mean by that? :p
  • bloc said on Aug 18, 2006....
    I didn't say Hezbollah, I said palestinian. They kidnap/arrest them often. They've done it many thousands of times. Many of them are never given a trial of any sort.

    "You are aware also that many of the Lebaneese that died were likely killed by Hezbollah after the fact? Or that Hezbollah staged many of the "photo opps" of Israeli destruction, or that Hezbollah actively prevented civilians from fleeing the area because they *knew* Israel was going to be shelling..."

    This sounds like tinfoil hat talk. I'm sure destroying over 100 bridges didn't help civilians that wanted to flee. Show me one grain of proof that Hez. killed civilians after the fact. This claim was made about that one bombing which israel itself admits that it mistakenly bombed, but there are still crazies saying that Hez. really blew it up.

    Am I wrong that israel has illegal settlements?
  • bloc said on Aug 18, 2006....
    thinking about yoru statement is rather funny. Israel bombs a place and kills a bunch of people and it's Hezbollah's fault. This shows that you are only seeing what you want to see. I'm not supporter of Hezbollah or an isreal hater. Israel is the more civilized of the two by far, but they need to clean up their act starting with the illegal settlements.
  • FaithMatters said on Aug 18, 2006....
    Razulki - I mean that I agree with your posts. I'm skeptical that these French-"led" UN Forces and Lebanese troops will succeed at maintaining a lasting peace, especially if they do not intend to disarm and halt the flow of arms to Hezbollah.

    Israel pulled out of that area six years ago in the interests of maintaining peace with Lebanon. And what did Hezbollah do over the course of those six years? Build up caches of weapons, construct bunkers and create a force of civilian fighters. Why would they do something like that if their intentions were peaceful? As a deterrent?

    It is interesting to note that Hezbollah chose to initiate its incursion and kidnapping stunt AFTER Syrian troops pulled out of Lebanon.

    What's important is to somehow convice Hezbollah and it's supporters that they too have a stake in maintaining peace.
    Next time, Israel will not make the mistake of waiting so long to mount a full-scale invasion.
  • Razulki said on Aug 18, 2006....
    Hey Bloc... Where do live? I want to shell your back yard from a school's playground or maybe your local hospital...

    You're playing the aplogist for murderers.

    Sympathy=0
    Increduality=1

    And I should point out that you are ignoring that I also think Israel has been out of line in the past. But not this time. (See comments wrt firing rockets into appartment buildings.)

    The problem with you position is this:

    Israel does everything it can to minimizae civilian casualities while protecting it's citizens.

    Hamas does everything it can to maximize civilian casualties while deliberately using their civilians as shields.

    Israel is just simply not in the wrong here.
  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 18, 2006....
    Argh, stop the hate!

    Razulki, you are expressing frustration at the willingness of Hezbollah to win the propaganda war and garnering sympathy while using Lebanese as human shields against Israeli forces.

    Bloc, you do want to know true facts that are separate from Razulki's frustration. How do you know what is truth and what is assumed?

    Did anyone ever consider that the media is so varied and biased in so many ways that objectivity and truth are lost, solely because the people in media are just as imperfect as two sides fighting in a war?

    Further, is there a victor between the two sides you two represent? Is there any benefit for winning a war of words?

    Israel isn't the picture of perfection, but that is no reason to justify Hezbollah's actions. Hezbollah celebrates "victory" amidst the ruins of Lebanon, firing rockets at Israeli forces. Israel returns fire, while Hezbollah knows that civilians are returning to their homes and would likely be victim to Israeli retaliation.

    Sometimes I wonder if it would be better for Iran to win in an all-out war in the Middle East, which would identify a clear enemy for the rest of the world to engage. But I won't go into the craziness of the Iranian president, that's a whole other can o' worms.

    Here's a question: Much of the U.S. mocked France when it refused to aid us in the current war after 9/11. Now, most of the U.S. opposes the war, and yet they still mock France. Is this hypocrisy? Or are there other reasons we have mocked France other than sitting out the war in Iraq?
  • bloc said on Aug 18, 2006....
    "Bloc, you do want to know true facts that are separate from Razulki's frustration. How do you know what is truth and what is assumed?"

    I don't know absolutely, and I'm open to things that will change my mind. The main point I'm trying to make is that Israel is not perfect as you said. They do have illegal settlements that they stole from people! I have never once used this as any sort of justification of Hezbollah. I've said that Hezbollah are bad people, worse than israel, but israel needs to stop doing it's wrongs for the sake of us all. There is no point to asking hezbollah to stop because it's futile. They are antisemetic bigots.
  • Razulki said on Aug 19, 2006....
    Israel has offered, at no small amount of personal pain and sacrifice, to abandon the settlements, and was in the process of doing so of their own accord. To my knowledge Israel has never negotiated in bad faith while their arab counterparts seem to do so as a matter of course.

    Israel is no angel but its hat is only an off shade of white in this matter. Any attempt to defend Hezbollah, or attempt to justify their actions is, IMHO, reprehensible.

    [quote=Bloc]
    Who killed more civilians, israel or hezbollah? I agree that hezbollah is a group of fanatics, but let's not be so onesided ok?

    I wasn't being one sided. If you'd like I can put up a similar spiel about Israel. Would you like that? ;)
  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 19, 2006....
    Don't worry bloc, I wasn't referring to you when I said that Israel's flaws don't justify Hezbollah's actions. That was just a statement of how the chips fall in the situation.

    I wonder if Israel's actions will do anything to quell Hezbollah's activities. They won't disband, and I wonder if they'll take the offensive within Israel.

    And what of Lebanon? The impression of FoxNews is that they did little to keep Hezbollah in check, harboring terrorists and decrying Israel's attempt to do something about it.

    Add that to the fact that Iran's president sympathizes with Hezbollah and is claimed by western powers to be financing them directly! It seems the Gulf War, the war in Iraq, the war on terror, and the recent Israel-Hezbollah conflicts are a prelude to a future, bigger conflict.

    I hope that alliances aren't made that will drag the world's major players into a conflict where they're obligated to be drawn into a larger conflict, especially one where Iran potentially has nuclear weapons and less sound judgment than the U.S. did in 1945.
  • Razulki said on Aug 19, 2006....
    That's kind of my point lidstrom. Israel has not undertaken an effort to destroy hezbollah. Israel is more interested in making sure that Hezbollah doesn't have artillery to shell their cities with. As far as Israel appears to be concerned Hezbollah can hop around and scream about all sorts of shit to their antisemitic hearts content. Just no shelling please.

    What is needed IMHO is for something to be done that actaully destroys their means to make war, deprives them of the support of Iran and Syria, or outright destroys them. Any one of those things is going to involve a nasty ass fight though. People seem rather unwilling to accept that premise.
  • silverwhisper said on Aug 19, 2006....
    razulki: c'mon, you know what sun tzu said, that you must destroy the will to make war.

    ed
  • Razulki said on Aug 19, 2006....
    Indeed you must. On the other hand I have to deal with the reality that most people don't want to even acknowledge that there has to be a fight much less one of that scope...

    ...until you get people to accept that reality they have to fight it's pointless to even try and persuade them of what they're fighting for...

    Hell sometimes I think we *deserve* to lose.
  • bloc said on Aug 20, 2006....
    "Israel has offered, at no small amount of personal pain and sacrifice, to abandon the settlements, and was in the process of doing so of their own accord"

    NO they didn't. They unilaterally decided to pull out of some of the settlements. Unilateral decisions is not a way to negotiate in good faith because there is no negotiation.

    "You must destroy the will to make war."

    I don't think this is possible with terrorism. We aren't fighting nations! By pounding lebanon israel created more hatred for them and did not harm hezbollah in any way. If they had bombed even harder they would have only created even more hatred of israel around the world. We can't beat terrorism with bombs. The sooner we realize this the better off we will be.
  • Razulki said on Aug 20, 2006....
    Whoa. Let's back up there Bloc. Israel has no renigged on any of it's committments. It has always been the palestinians and company to drop their end of the deal. Think about it. All Hamas had to do in order to pay it's workers and feed it's people is to acknowledge Israel and stop blowing up civilians and they would not.[/]

    Why are you defending these people?


    I don't think this is possible with terrorism. We aren't fighting nations!


    No. We are fighting people. It is possible that the only way to stop the terrorists is to kill them all, anyone that joins, anyone that supports them, and anyone that defends or harbors them until there is no one left to kill. I find that options, however repugnant, preferable to letting my people be killed to satisfy someone else's psychotic urges.

    Do you like the idea of innocents being killed?
  • bloc said on Aug 21, 2006....
    Again, does israel have illegal settlements? You seem to want to avoid this. They have never promised to give up ALL illegal settlements.

    As for killing all terrorists, I'm fine with that. The problem is when we kill people that aren't terrorists, like the heavy bombings in lebanon. This only makes more terrorists. If we could kill all the terrorists, and only the terrorists, I'd be all for it. Creating more terrorists by killing a bunch of innocent people is bad strategy. I.e. lebanon was a bad strategy for israel and I think they realized this.
  • Razulki said on Aug 21, 2006....
    I have already addressed your points previously.

    Did you have something new or constructive to offer or are you going to continue in your defense of these vile murderers?
  • bloc said on Aug 21, 2006....
    i have not once defended them, and I find it funny that you continue to say that I do. What I have done is said that israel has done wrong as well and that I wish they would stop as they are sane and hezbollah is not.

    I only repeat things when you make factual errors like, "Israel has offered, at no small amount of personal pain and sacrifice, to abandon the settlements"

    This implies all settlements and they have made no such offer.
  • Razulki said on Aug 21, 2006....
    Who killed more civilians, israel or hezbollah? I agree that hezbollah is a group of fanatics, but let's not be so onesided ok?


    You have from the outset defended them. Please do not be disingenuous. Israel has done nought but act to protect themselves.
  • bloc said on Aug 21, 2006....
    illegal settlements are not "protecting themselves".

    Please give me an example of where I've defended Hezbollah. Here is a clear example of where I did the opposite:

    "here is no point to asking hezbollah to stop because it's futile. They are antisemetic bigots."

    Here is how I started this conversation:

    "agree that hezbollah is a group of fanatics, but let's not be so onesided ok?"

    Here is another example:

    "Don't get me wrong, hezbollah and many palestinian terrorists are bad people, but let's not for get the wrongs committed by israel."


    Please show me where I've defended them. I have not! I've been trying to have a conversation with you, but your projecting your biases onto me and assuming I'm saying things that I'm not. Please read over what I've said with an open mind and see if I've defended Hezbollah.
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