• Fallyn said on Sep 22, 2008....

  makes sense to me
  
  

• bloc said on Sep 22, 2008....

  now if only we could convince most other people :/

• Fallyn said on Sep 22, 2008....

  *nods*
  not sure how to implement it exactly.
  i grew up about 70% vegetarian.....but anymore..we eat quite a bit of meat.
  usually once a day.
  
  

• D6fer said on Sep 22, 2008....

  convince other people of what? To eat less meat? or that the environment needs protecting?

• Fallyn said on Sep 22, 2008....

  sorry D6...only idiots with their heads in the sand think the environment doesn't need protecting if humanity is even going to survive.
  
  if you don't care about human survival and only the survival of the planet then i say ....sure...go ahead....do whatever the hell you want....the planet can definitely survive without us......might take awhile to recover....but it will.
  
  but humans are in definite danger of wiping ourselves out.
  

• pickersplock said on Sep 23, 2008....

  Well, you know I eat very little meat (no beef or pork), but I'm more for a macrobiotic diet
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrobiotic_diet
  Self sufficient as possible, eat what's in season, and eat what's grown
  or raised locally.
   
  I've been after Mr. P to let me get chickens, but so far he won't budge.
  He's worried about them attracting coyotes.  Bah!  That's what a hen house is for.
  I don't want to eat them, btw.  I want them for the eggs.
   
  I don't think, as a country, we'll ever go meat free.  You have to clear a lot of land to grow crops and that means cutting down a lot of trees.
  We need all of the trees we can get right now!

• bloc said on Sep 23, 2008....

  @pickers
  
  
  I try to eat locally as much as I can and go to the farmers market each week. I'd like to grow most of my own food, but that's hard when you live in a townhouse with no yard ;) I am growing peppers, green onions, and tomatoes on my patio (a few herbs too).
  
  
  One of my friends has chickens for eggs (she lives in pasadena) and I've never heard her talk of coyote problems. She doesn't live too close to any mountain though so they'd have to walk through a bit of residential area to get to her place. I live right up against a mountain and coyotes have been seen walking through our complex a few times in the year I've been here.

• pickersplock said on Sep 23, 2008....

  Well as far as I'm concerned the coyotes are already here.
  They ran through the yard one night.
  That's what the three dogs are for!
   
  It's really the hawks you have to watch out for when you have chickens.
   
  Yep, the more independent you are, the better off you are!

• Lucytorial said on Sep 23, 2008....

  I've already commented on your other post about this.

• curmudgeon said on Sep 23, 2008....

  The question is - how much less? Seems to me that meat production isn't going to decrease unless tens of millions of people give up or at least severely curtail their carniverous activities.

  And yes - they do serve meat at the UN Delegates Lounge on a daily basis. If you're looking for leadership on this issue, you won't find it there.

  Let's get those swim fins and scuba tanks out. At least we'll have plenty of fish to live on.

• Lucytorial said on Sep 23, 2008....

  Curmudgeon, no we won't, fish stocks all over the world are in decline, not to mention that heavy lead is being found in many deep sea fish as well.
   
  We've poisoned so much of our resources that little measures won't do jack shidt!

• curmudgeon said on Sep 23, 2008....

  Actually once sea levels rise and millions of humans die off, fish stocks will return and provide plenty of food for those humans who do survive.
   
  I don't understand. People who supposedly believe in evolution - which includes periodic mass extinctions - all of a sudden want to "save humanity" when it comes to environmental issues.
   
  The best way to ensure our survival is technological development and creation of infrastructure. But environmentalists seem to be against all of this - including laying new power lines that connect wind turbines in the Great Plains to coastal areas.

• Lucytorial said on Sep 23, 2008....

  te he hee yeh thats true.  I've always thought natural selection will take care of things at the end of the day anyway.

• D6fer said on Sep 23, 2008....

  fallyn......people that fall hook, line, and sinker for the biggest scam in the history of man are idiots in my opinion......again.....lets drudge up this same argument.....it's been much warmer than it is now...with no intervention of man....as well as much colder.....weather is cyclical and guess what? it's getting colder again!
  
  more than 90% of all species that ever existed are extinct, and it happened before man got here......this whole man made global warming we must save the planet b.s. movement is the most egotistical idea men (and women) have ever conjured up!
  

• bloc said on Sep 23, 2008....

  @curm
  
  
  your aren't making much sense to me. I have no clue what you're trying to say regarding evolution. 
  
  
  "The best way to ensure our survival is technological development and creation of infrastructure"
  
  
  Actually this is the hard way to try to solve a problem, the easier way is to not create the problem in the first place. I.e. it's easier to prevent cancer than cure it. 

• bloc said on Sep 23, 2008....

  @d6
  
  
  "this whole man made global warming we must save the planet b.s. movement is the most egotistical idea men (and women) have ever conjured up!"
  
  
  you aren't making any sense either. You're all rhetoric and no substance. We've been through this global warming thing many times in the past and you have no real answers. You won't answer one simple question. Does an increase C02 cause warming? If not, then why is earth warmer than mars?
  
  
  Even if we avoid the specifics your logic is clearly flawed. Let's break it down.
  
  
  premise: things other than man have caused warming
  conclusion: therefore man can NOT cause warming
  
  
  Does that conclusion follow from your premise? No it doesn't, which has been pointed out to you many times to no avail. Let's look at another.
  
  
  premise: many species have gone extinct in the past
  conclusion: um, I have no idea what your conclusion is here. Can you explain.
  
  

• Fallyn said on Sep 23, 2008....

  i suppose i can see both sides....yeah. it's possibly partially just natural, but how you can see the impact we've had and say we have had no hand in it is just impossible.
  
  i live out in the middle of nowhere.
  the sad thing is.....the middle of nowhere is there are very very few places even around here...in the middle of nowhere......that you can be somewhere and not see a house.
  
  this means that there is no more land for wild animals.....except the ones that can survive around people....the only predators among those that can survive in proximity to humans are coyotes.
  
  but then say......a hiker gets attacked by a bear...or a mountain lion.....and there's a drive to go find the thing and kill it.
  
  why? cause we encroached on it's territory and got killed?
  
  there's BILLIONS of us.....only a few thousand of them......and if any of us get killed we need to go and retaliate so no more of us billions get killed.
  
  then we fight any and all amounts of germs, that might kill us....billions of dollars of research go into fighting disease....and then we wonder why there is over population.
  
  i'm all for mass wipe out of humanity.
  but...like anyone else....i don't want it to touch the ones i love.
  
  it's a sticky place to be.
  
  

• D6fer said on Sep 24, 2008....

  Does an increase C02 cause warming? If not, then why is earth warmer than mars?
  
  This is a stupid argument.....apples and oranges bloc....might as well say why is the sun warmer than the earth....it makes no sense......however mars has increased in temperature along with earth....hmmmm....what do they have in common....oh yes...the sun!.....and now we are having a cooler year....and guess what? ...no sun spots this year....and less solar wind.....hmmmmm
  
  fallyn.....you have so much guilt......you know the roosevelt (teddy) generation nearly wiped out the buffalo, and our brought it back......cheer up
  

• Lucytorial said on Sep 24, 2008....

  D6 I know you won't sway on this one I just know it, you are a stubborn but stupid old man sometimes.
   
  The whole point of the global warming cry out is not just about what humans are doing but the general progression of the solar system.
   
  Most don't want to know what will happen, like you they have their heads in the sand like ostriches because it ain't gonna happen in their lifetime so why bother? right?
   
  The point you make of the sun causing warming and then having a cooler year due to lack of sun spots is laughable - have done any research on this at all?
   
  Its a fact that the solar system is aging (yeh, you know, it turns just like our little planet) and also that we as humans are overpopulating the world and raping our resources to a point we cannot sustain the lifestyles we have all become overly  and obesely accustomed to.  Yes something should be done, but what? its not as fascia as many spout about, its root level, too many humans, not enough food and not enough clean water. 

• bloc said on Sep 24, 2008....

  @d6
  you aren't making any sense. Does C02 in cause warming if it's level increases in the atmosphere. This is a simple question. 
  
  
  Regarding the sun, read this.
  
  "Scientists have produced further compelling evidence showing that modern-day climate change is not caused by changes in the Sun's activity. The research contradicts a favoured theory of climate "sceptics", that changes in cosmic rays coming to Earth determine cloudiness and temperature. 
  
  
  The idea is that variations in solar activity affect cosmic ray intensity. But UK scientists found there has been no significant link between cosmic rays and cloudiness in the last 20 years."
  
  Not only that, I've shown you in the past a graph of sun activity compared to temperature which made it clear that temperature is rising separate from sun activity. Did you forget this graph I showed you, or are you intentionally ignoring it? Here is the url of the graph.
  
  
  http://www.skepticalscience.com/images/tsi_vs_temp.gif

• D6fer said on Sep 25, 2008....

  bloc.....you can show me all of the graphs/reports that you want.....I was born at night, but it wasn't last night......boiler room statistics don't impress me.

• pickersplock said on Sep 25, 2008....

  Hey, I thought we were talking about meat!

• Lucytorial said on Sep 25, 2008....

  We are in a way Pickers, there is a four way split in the global environmental problems right now.  There is 1 part natural and 3 parts man made one of them is meat prodcution, it goes into every corner of our lives, our natural systems being that we learned to eat me we aren't designed naturally to eat it, another area being that health benefits from eating less meat and meat that is leaner are huge, and last but not least the environmental impact this kind of farming has.  Including financial.

• bloc said on Sep 25, 2008....

  @d6
  
  
  I've done more than show you graphs. I've asked you simple questions about your position and you can't answer them.
  
  
  Again, does an increase in C02 cause warming?

• D6fer said on Sep 25, 2008....

  there are studies that show the opposite......and what goes up must come down......the earth does this amazing little balancing act where the increased water vapor (92% of all green house gas) creates rain which magically cools the Earth.
  
  Can you explain the latest cooling trend?
  

• Lucytorial said on Sep 26, 2008....

  D6fer, can you explain why it is that some sperm, although they shouldn't, but they do, impregnate the wrong women! (sorry couldn't help it)
   
  I'm heading off for the night, when I come back I hope to actually see the topic has come back to the original discussion.. I hope!  Pickers is right, this like the other political and environmental posts are way off track... its like talking to bloody teenagers.

• bloc said on Sep 26, 2008....

  @d6
  We've discussed the cooling claim before. Have you forgotten already or do you intentionally ignore it?
  
  
  Your view on this issue has no coherence. You make claims that contradict other claims you've made. It's clear that you have an agenda, global warming denier, and you will say anything and repeat anything that fits that agenda. You don't care if it makes sense and you don't care if it clearly contradicts your previous claims.
  
  
  This becomes clear when someone asks you to give a coherent explanation of the issue. For instance, when I ask you if C02 causes warming and you refuse to answer. 
  
  
  The idea that global warming is a hoax is a conspiracy theory more absurd than the theory that Bush planned 9/11. It would require hundreds of institutions and thousands of doctors from countries all around the world to be in a this little secret. It's patently absurd.

• D6fer said on Sep 26, 2008....

  oh thats right bloc......whenever you speak down to us on a subject, it becomes a fact.....I forgot....how silly of me.
  
  give me an example of a contradiction.
  
  I am not going to fall into a "trap" question.....you argue subjects without context.....elements behave differently by themselves than they do in combination with other elements and under different circumstances....all results having different values.
  
  follow the money.
  

• curmudgeon said on Sep 29, 2008....

  bloc - how can it be easier to prevent something when we don't really know the cause of the disease? What, did cancer come up all of a sudden after the start of the industrial revolution? Eating vegan, exercising, and whatever else do nothing to "prevent" cancer. Doctors only think that eating certain foods may decrease the chances of getting cancer. Preventing and minimizing odds are two completely different ballgames. To continue with this analogy, better to develop treatments that aid in survival and recovery just in case all of those other "preventive" measures don't work.
   
  Egad, what a crummy argument for environmentalism.
   
  The point is that the Earth warms and cools as it has been doing for the last five billion years. Each warming and cooling period has had survival implications for life forms ever since life began here. Even if we got our CO2 emissions down to zero, the Earth's climate will still warm and then cool and then warm again and then cool again, all of which will result in the demise of certain species and the rise of others. Evolution - get it? If we want to ensure that billions of poor people survive the next round of climate change - which cuts in CO2 emissions will not prevent - we'd better help those poor folks build buildings, hospitals, pharma manufacturing plants, farms, roads,  factories and so on.

• bloc said on Sep 30, 2008....

  "Eating vegan, exercising, and whatever else do nothing to "prevent" cancer. "
  
  
  There have been convincing studies on this. If you will actually read them let me know and I'll point you in the right direction. They are not online though.
  
  
  "Doctors only think that eating certain foods may decrease the chances of getting cancer."
  
  
  This is not even close to what the studies actually say. 
  
  
  Your last paragraph doesn't really make sense. It's not logical at all. Here it is in summary
  
  
  premise: the climate can change on it's own
  conclusion: therefore it's impossible for humans to affect the climate
  
  
  This is nonsensical. 

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