realmenluvporn's tags:
The past couple of days have been quite dramatic here on SC. We have seen numerous examples of what happens when everybody just lets it all hang out. We have gone out of our way to step on toes, we even have a plagiarist that has caused at least one member to leave SoulCast.

In a free and open public forum like this, I think everybody takes a certain amount of pride in expressing themselves genuinely, in ways that are meaningful and important to them. As an inevitable result, conflicts will arise when human beings tell their truths and damn the consequences.

In picking at this point, I crossed into some interesting territories. One of them was in picking a strong opinion to express in ways meant to offend and challenge other strong opinions. I knew going in that it was futile and I thought a point could be made that futile pursuits lead to places of futility. I guess I proved it, but at what cost?

FaithMatters, the author who initially stirred me to see how offensive I could be to a segment of the SoulCast community made a really good point. He said:
I like to write from an opinionated voice, even if some find it overbearing.

I realized that I do too. Then I realized perhaps a lot of people do. That is absolutely their right and prerogative. Maybe it goes back to being true to yourself, to your art, to the feelings you have in the moment, whatever. And then I had to think "Wherever you put people together where everyone is being 'genuine' and speaking Truth to Power, and being true to themselves, you will find the other side of human nature, the side that wants to crush the opposition."

I truly believe it is largely human nature to be confrontational when things we hold intimately sacred are challenged, threatened, whether the threat is real or imagined. Human beings can be incredibly creative when it comes to ways of hurting one another, and IMHO we have far too much comfort wielding that power over others. But we also want to live in communities where every one strives for a common goal. Good luck on deciding what that should be!

So what do we do? How do we maintain the bonds of community while being true to ourselves? Is it possible to speak your Truth and damn the consequences AND be a valued part of a functional community? I really don't know the answer, and I'm hoping some of you can enlighten me.

What do you think? Can a functional community tolerate real dyed-in-the wool truth-tellers? Or do we have to function by lying for the sake of the peace? There will always be people with strong opinions, people who are not only not afraid to express them but who will take pride in expressing them virulently. There will always be those who say that if you don't stand up for what you believe in then you run risk of losing it to your silence.

Do you believe a balance can be achieved?

RMLP


del.icio.us Digg reddit StumbleUpon

Comments

  • silverwhisper said on Aug 18, 2006....
    RMLP: personally, i think that honesty and openness most certainly [i]can[/i] coexist. further, i believe that for a lot of people who like to "tell it like it is" take pleasure in being rude, dressing up bad manners with the three-piece suit of honesty, openness, directness. this isn't directed at anyone on soulcast, mind: i've just witnessed a [i]lot[/i] of that kind of "soft trolling" in my online sojourns. there's a word that isn't often used online and that should change. that word is [i]diplomacy[/i]. the old saw about attracting more flies w/ honey than vinegar is doubly true of online interactions, IMX. if you want people to think, you get [i]much[/i] farther w/seduction than the alternatives. much. ed
  • missfickle said on Aug 18, 2006....
    RMLP, what an articulate blog you have written, I am impressed. I personaly think we all have our own truths, and we should tell them how we see them. The truth may make thee miserable, but the truth doth set you free (proverbs) If people don't like your truth it is up to them. But how can we learn anything if nobody can express themselves through truth. You and I have not seen eye to eye, however I still value your comments, as in democracy we should all be able to voice our truth, and I enjoy the interaction of thoughts. Cyberspace provides the forum for intellectual reality, and it would be a shame if we were unable to tell the truth. Silverwhisper has a point though diplomacy goes a long way into getting your point accross. Peace to you soldier xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Susmaryosep said on Aug 18, 2006....
    Sticks and bricks may break my bones, but words don't hurt me; if someone wants to be an a-hole by being overbearing, it won't kill us to let them be; unless what they do or say will bring on the Thrid World War... look at how much trouble is when everyone wants to make his/her stand regardless..... Meditation helps!
  • FaithMatters said on Aug 18, 2006....
    I still want to know exactly which of my posts set realmen off. Was it one of my blogs, or was it a response to someone else's opinion? Did it occur to you that someone's post might have set me off? Seriously, what was it that you found so offensive? And if I offended you, why didn't you simply come out and say that I did? Why did you feel the need to play passive-aggressive mind games? You might have found, as I hope silverwhisper has, that I can indeed tone it down and exchange perspectives politely. But at present I'm also quite happy to verbally slug it out with anyone, if that's what they want. For the record, I hold no disdain for anyone or anyone's point of view. It's all good, and we're all equal. That goes for atheists, racists, buddhists, neo-nazis, ultra-liberals, communists, anarchists, whatever. We all share the same planet, the same universe, and the same set of magnetic resonances we call SoulCast. With sincerity - best wishes to all.
  • madstorm said on Aug 18, 2006....
    Personally RMLP... I can't see any problem with the open expression of opinions. Offence is a feeling within the offended. What they are really saying is "I didn't want YOU say that to ME". It is insecurity, plain and simple. Insecurity makes people feel they are less valid than others and so they react... truth can only ever be personal, one person finds enlightenment in believing Jesus died for them on a cross... fair enough, but another person finds a big fat joint of grass, Led Zeppelin and a peanut butter sandwich is a spiritual experience. Both are equally valid.

    So... let it rip Soulcasters... tell it like it is... why not?

    I've already been called a "piece of slime" anyway... excuse me while I crawl back to the gutter...
  • realmenluvporn said on Aug 18, 2006....
    Good feedback, all, thank you for commenting.

    I am constantly reminded that, while sticks and bricks can break bones, I think words DO carry a great deal of power. As you say, they have the power to start wars, or to end them. Words have the power to inspire in ways violence can't.
    Words have the power to heal, words can give hope, or take it away. Words mean a lot more to us than we realize sometimes.

    Silver: This is not the first time I've heard the "catch more flies with honey" argument. And I agree that sometimes that's the best approach. I also think there's a time and place for a bug zapper and DDT. Sometimes it's the offensive rhetoric that cuts through all the illusions and aligns you DIRECTLY what is really important to you. I think there is a great deal of Truth there as well.

    FaithMatters: Does it really matter which ones? If I go through and point it out to you it's just gonna' get me all pissed off again and I'm likely to start showing my entire ass again. If I had simply come out and said "Oh, my, I'm so offended by that." what would have been your response?

    Keep 'em coming everyone, I think we're making some excellent points.

    RMLP
  • realmenluvporn said on Aug 18, 2006....
    What they are really saying is "I didn't want YOU say that to ME".


    Yahtzee! :-D

    Guilty as charged!

    One of my guiding principles is:

    The meaning of the communication is the response it gets.


    So if I say to you "The Great Pumpkin Loves You" and you turn around and go "FUCK YOU, you delusional prick!" then the sentiment I conveyed to you was clearly worthy of your contempt. Just 'cuz I meant it one way (in my head) the way it was "taken" is the message it delivered.

    RMLP
  • Susmaryosep said on Aug 18, 2006....
    i give up :-)
    The easiest way to fight temptation is to yield to it... Oscar Wilde. Yield man, Yield..... hahahahahahah
  • secretlife said on Aug 18, 2006....
    One man's truth is another man's........sheesh I can't remember. I was going to say bologna, but that can't be right.

    I agree with those saying we should write the truth as we see it. That's the whole point of belonging to this community anyway.

    If you feel passionate about something, express it. I've read a few of your "expressions" RMLP and although I might not agree with them, I've enjoyed piecing together the puzzle of who you are.
    We all live by our values. One of mine is common courtesy. I think that goes a long way in terms of surviving in any community.
  • Indiefilm said on Aug 18, 2006....
    We all live by our values. One of mine is common courtesy. I think that goes a long way in terms of surviving in any community.

    Well said SL ;)

    I think it is perfectly alright to have a strong, opinion about something, and to have the integrity to be able to stand up and say what you believe and stand by them. Just as long as you remember that everyone else has the same right.

    I happen to be a very opinionated person, and one of my personal beliefs is to respect the opinions of others. <- which doesn't mean that I have to agree with them, just that I understand that they have a right to speak their mind too.
  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 18, 2006....
    Hey there realmen, this post is awesome. I think this past week has been very intense, and I think your experiment ruffled lots of feathers because hey, it was meant to.

    This is your best post yet.

    We all have our own experiences. What happens to us can't be proven wrong, because it's our own experience. What we think or say about those experiences can be agreed to or disagreed to by others. For instance, if I talk about Jesus Christ, those that don't ascribe to Him might be like, "Shoot, this guy is crazy, believing in a long-haired guy that walked on water and got nailed to a tree!"

    I think there's a human race-wide affliction called pride, that motivates us to be RIGHT, often at the expense of others. This is what makes religion dangerous - it gives us a chance to claim power and knowledge over others. It makes politics dangerous, dividing people and causing dissention. It also makes free speech dangerous - if you say any crazy thing convincingly enough, people will listen and follow. Hitler had evil intent, but boy did he ever win over the German people.

    The point is, you said a ton of good truths, realmen.

    The desire to be right all the time is a powerful motivator. Even when we are clearly in the wrong, we try to save face. How do we overlook this desire and contribute? I think here's a few thoughts/ideas:

    1. Post with the intent to say something that will benefit others.

    2. Be humble and understanding if someone disagrees, or is offended.

    3. Apologize if something is said out of pride or to tear down someone else.

    4. Say things out of genuineness, not the desire to be right.

    5. If you feel strongly about an opinion, simply share it and let others make a decision for themselves, and not beat them over the head with it, lord it over them, or denounce their opinions.

    6. If a discussion is really between two people and the topic is offending, troubling, or inapplicable to anyone else, the two should share email addresses to continue the matter, rather than an open forum.

    In short: love and respect the people we blog with, regardless of their beliefs/opinions, even if they're in direct conflict with others. If we write off a person or judge them as stupid or crazy, we miss out on learning from them, we offend them, and we burn bridges and close doors. Relationships are one of the most important things in our lives, so the more we have and learn from and enjoy, the richer our lives will be.

    Blog on!
  • silvio said on Aug 18, 2006....
    Hey Real men l p.

    Nice speech . Bravo.

    Now that is out of the way, Are truly looking for an answer,
    Then all you need need do is look inside your self.
    Take all that you have learned, and compare it, to the our history, and human nature, then only you can decide, what you want to do and what direction you are going to go.
    I hope this will help you as it did me.....
    let me how that works out for you.


    Silvio.
  • JadeLondon said on Aug 18, 2006....
    In a nutshell: No.
  • silvio said on Aug 18, 2006....
    Hey Jade

    Yes
  • GrapeKoolaid said on Aug 18, 2006....
    I'll be glad to offend whoever wants to be offended, just like I lend support to those who want to be supported.

    "If you are squeamish, don't prod the beach rubble."
    -Sappho-

    Basically, when people get pissed, it's largely due to their own prejudices and hang-ups. If you're sensitive about these subjects, you always have the option of reading something a little lighter on your constitution. Perhaps something about food, or pets.

    I do happen to think that common courtesy does go a long way in maintaining a civil community. Nothing wrong with being nice to each other, you know?

    So on that note, have a nice day. :)

    Grape.
  • labyrinth said on Aug 18, 2006....
    RMLP: WHY DO YOU LOVE PORN? YOU'RE SICK.
  • hunter_boyce_chandler said on Aug 18, 2006....
    May angels lead you in.
    And if you were with me tonight,
    I'd sing to you just one more time.
    A song for a heart so big,
    god wouldn't let it live.
    May angels lead you in.
    Hear you me my friends.
    On sleepless roads the sleepless go.
    May angels lead you in.
  • lidstrom82 said on Aug 19, 2006....
    That's a wonderful song, hunter.
  • CreativeWoman said on Aug 19, 2006....
    Good conversation.

    I agree with Silver's point of view. I always try to be firm, but nice when I have a differing opinion.

    CW
  • realmenluvporn said on Aug 19, 2006....
    Labyrinth: Because I can't have YOU! ;-)

    RMLP
  • hunter_boyce_chandler said on Aug 19, 2006....
    I am very glad there are people like realmen... to carry on the torch. I respect people that are real. It doesn’t matter whether I agree with their point of view on any particular topic or not. If my friend lidstrom82 approves of you that is all the affirmation I need.

    You don't know me because I've been away for a week. I am not a very good person because I have proven myself unworthy. I once had the ear of god but he/she has abandoned me. I am alone in the world. If you read my early blogs you will see a confident person who is a rebel against all established religions. Now I am a bent and torn old man.

    All I want is to make a little sense out of the sliver of life I have left. I have failed god so many times that I wonder why he/she allows me to live further. Then my doctor warns me to get my affairs in order just in case.

    There is no tunnel of light waiting for me. I have failed a living god with my discharge of a life. You must do better than I have done.
  • Susmaryosep said on Aug 19, 2006....
    Realman,
    I read through this blog again, after the moving Hunter post, and I must say, it hit me the second time around. Thanks, and all I can say to you is, with such insight, you real man, can't really "luv Porn" ? No!!!!

    Thanks again!
  • realmenluvporn said on Aug 19, 2006....
    Susmaryosep: Porn is just like anything else. For me it's both my vocation and my avocation. So, while I understand that it's hard to understand why, I tell you honestly, I DO love my work.

    Perhaps, if I can accomplish nothing else here, I can show you that at least some of the things you thought were true (perhaps because you didn't have enough information) are worthy of reconsideration in the light of day.

    :-D

    RMLP
  • silverwhisper said on Aug 19, 2006....
    RMLP quoth
    i also think there's a time and place for a bug zapper and DDT. sometimes it's the offensive rhetoric that cuts through all the illusions and aligns you directly what is really important to you.

    while i agree, i've been reading faithful disciple and lidstrom for some time and i've never once encountered anything resembling what i would consider "offensive rhetoric" from them. JMHO.

    ed
  • yeahbutnobut said on Aug 19, 2006....
    Good post, RMLP, and interesting range of answers. 2 Points.

    Erich Fromm has a brilliant (and terse) passage in "In The Art Of Being" on the dynamic tension between being oneself (based on one's own conscience) and answering to the need for approval, often disguised as the need for understanding/acceptance. When I can get to it, I'll dig it up and cite it verbatim.

    Based on extensive experience, M.Scott Peck who did a lot of work with "community" describes a progression in the evolutionary dynamic of community proceeses, it ran someting like this. (I paraphase).

    1. no stepping on any toes--everyone is falsely tolerant/polite and not expressing their true thoughts and feelings etc.

    2. ouch, toes get mashed--chaos--in this phase some may elect to leave because people shed the veneer of phase 1.

    3. Stillness--phase were people re-assess what it's all about to them

    4. Community


    In a situation like SC where people are coming in willy nilly, it is to be expected that this sequence will repeat from time to time. If you can recognize which of these phases the process is transiting, then it may not be so mind-boggling to be in it or observe it going down.
  • realmenluvporn said on Aug 19, 2006....
    YBNB: Very interesting! I would be very interested in seeing that citation. Makes sense to me!

    RMLP
  • yeahbutnobut said on Aug 19, 2006....
    Yep. Fromm is a man who never uttered a word without putting it through thorough scrutiny first.

    I learned from him about how much indoctrination we suffer with the social cliches, the empty thoughts or half-empty ones that pass as great nuggets of wisdom. Like so many men of real thought, he'll get his due eventually.

    Thing is my copy of the book is loaned out. More than 4,ooo miles away, believe it or not. but I have another book that cites the bit I want to share with you. I just dicovered is not indexed, drat!! Anyhoo, as soon as I find the bit I'll share it with you.

    In the meantime I have this to offer. Scott Peck, a man who was very concerned with civility (which is a word I much prefer over diplomacy), to the point that he wrote a whole book on the theme, also made this salient point:

    "One of the things a calling to be an individual of integrity means is a calling to speak out, to be outspoken. We are called to overcome the psycology of helplessness and reticence. If we see a lie, we are called to name it a lie. If we see insanity, we are called to name it as such."

    Recently, I saw a hissy fit. And in not exactly those words I addressed it. Hissy fits are manipulative strategies, they are not something to lolly cuddle. The convention that says this is impolite, uncivil and so forth is structured to cast blame in the wrong direction. Which I have duly noted is a pretty strong tendency among some of our fellow bloggers.

    And the answer as to why we have been snookered into seeing this from the ass end is enough fill a good-sized volume. But this these words try to sum it all up:

    "Awareness refers not only to the uncovering of inner conflicts, but equally to conflicts in social life that are negated and harmonized by ideologies (social rationalizations). Since the individual is a part of society and cannot be conceived of outside of the social fabric, the illusions about social reality affect the clarity of his mind and thus also prevent him from liberating himself from the illusions about himself."

    Ta-ta-ta-da!!!
    Fromm is, ounce for ounce, worth every second you read him. No one I have encountered in books or in real life has helped me more in becoming aware of the amazing amount of swill we are fed via the social rationalization mechanisms, so we can feel safe and comfortable, neatly tucked in to a role we have been schooled for since the cradle, disguised as individuality, freedom, liberty.

    Needless to say, those who are not hemmed in by these misconceptions will certainly cause a lot of clenched sphincters, incur a lot of displeasure, but it's the price to pay, if you seek to live an uncluttered inner life, to live as a man and not as a sheep. Oh, yeah. Sheep outnumber tigers on any given day, that's true, but it's also better to be a tiger than a sheep on any given day. Lemme get an amen!
  • yeahbutnobut said on Aug 20, 2006....
    Aight.
    Wicked.
    Aise found that muvver.

    "If other people do not understand our behavior--so what? Their demand that we must conform to what they understand or approve is their attempt to dictate to us. If this is "asocial" or "irrational in their eyes, then so be it. Mostly they resent our freedom and our courage to be ourselves. We owe no one an explanation or an accounting as long as our acts do no hurt or infringe upon them. How many lives have been ruined by thist need "to explain," which really means that we are understood and approved. Let our deeds be judge, and from our deeds our real intentions, but know that a free person owes an explanaion to no one but to himself or herself--to reason and our conscience--and to those few ho may have justified claim to an explanation." (The Art of Being).

    Now thats a good place to live from. Much better than the perpetual whine "Everybody, please love me." A whine which is no less odius when merely spoken between the lines, or worse, served up in the guise of loving others when it's really all about me, me, me, which passes as socially acceptable, unless one is aware that it is a it is a perculiar form of prostitution, in that the act of social intercourse is going on, but there is no "self" there.
  • missfickle said on Aug 22, 2006....
    YBNB, very good.
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • silverwhisper said on Aug 22, 2006....
    frankly, i think that passage is nothing a paean to self-indulgent behavior.

    ed
  • silverwhisper said on Aug 22, 2006....
    frankly, i think that passage is nothing but a paean to self-indulgent behavior.

    ed
  • yeahbutnobut said on Aug 22, 2006....
    Silver, say what?!?!?!

    This is most interesting. It's got "irony" stamped all over it.

    Out of three positions, granted they may overlap here and there, but out of three faily disctinctive positions,

    1. Be nicely tucked in the "norms" and conform for all you are worth, don't let your head stick up too high, don't have the huevos to stand apart from the herd

    2. lead with your heart, as you advocated in another thread

    3. lead with your conscience, which is advocated in the passage by Fromm, who you may or may not know his ideas and the full context, but self-indulgence is hardly something he stands for. The idea is practically laughable, which is not bad, because I love a good laugh.

    But once laughing stopped, if I was ask to pick the chief contender for most-likely-to-be-all-about self-indulgence (ie. narcissism), items 1 and 3 would not even be "also-rans."

Comment on "Strong Opinions and Community: Mutually Exclusive?"


(Separate tags using commas, for example: New York, dating, vegetarian)
Comment Anonymously

To You And Yours :-)

I just wanted to take this time to wish everyone a great turkey day.

In the spirit of Thanksgiving, would you please list one thing you're thankful for?...
My thoughts in relation to these two topics ... and my own self realization....
I voted for Obama!
I'm sick of Republicans....
Pickles is the only honest person I know. This is the whole truth, and she is the only one who ever said it....
Or, straight from the horse's ass...

Subscribe to the SoulCast Newsletter To Receive the Best Uncensored Blogs About Love, Sex, Relationships, God, Politics, and More.


Ever wonder what people really think and how they really live?

Read about the real lives of regular people like you whose powerful moving blogs will make you smile, cry, emotional, and warm inside.

Your FREE SoulCast newsletter is just moments away. Receive your first feel-good blog by entering your email address below.

First Name:
Your Email:


You can unsubscribe at any time with one click. We NEVER sell or share your email address with anyone. Period. close