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     I hold very strongly to the fact that as far as answering the question of how everything started and eventually made it to this point, we will never conclusively find the answer.  In other words, there will never be some Earth-shattering piece of evidence that is going to make everyone rule out all other theories and settle the argument.  With that I said, my only motivation in writing on this subject is to get people to open their minds.  Abiogenesis (theory of non-organic into organic life in a spontaneous event) is no more wacky a theory as is irreducible complexity (certain things are too complex to have evolved).
 
     When coming up with specific proof of ID, the only specific proof, as with evolution, lie in the probabilities.  Is something more likely to have come about by this or that way.  The evidence may show there is a far higher probability that leans to one side versus the other.  Whales with hipbones shows there is a higher probability that over the course of time they evolved and once were on land versus a God that points his finger and bops a whale in the ocean.  At the same time, the winding and turning of the flagellum in a precise machine-like action where a tiny amount of variation would destroy everything has a higher probability of some type of design versus a spontaneous eruption that put all of its parts in place. 
 
     Design theories are used in Anthropology, Forensics, and in the SETI (search for extraterrestrial intelligence) program.  SETI researchers look for narrow bandwidth transmissions that come out of space.  If they receive any of these transmissions in an organized sequence then it is proof of a specified complexity.  Their are specified complexities exhibited biology, like the bacterial flagellum.  Like forensics and anthropology experts determine a person did not die from natural causes, but from a blunt force trauma to the head. An injury that was designed can be speculated on first without alluding to the designer. 
 
     Can the design theory be tested in a lab?  Yes, and it is happening as we speak.  Scientists, not creationists or theologists are working on this:  http://www.newscientist.com/channel/opinion/mg19225824.000-intelligent-design-the-god-lab.html
 
     This article points out a lab called the Biologic Institute that is funded by the pro-ID group the Discovery Institute:
 
     The 2ND link is the Institutes take on the article in New Scientist.  There is an on-going anti-evolution movement.  I don't understand this because any science, if reasonable people believe they have evidence, should be looked at.  Why is challenging the findings of evolution suddenly call "anti-evolution" movement?  Can anyone see how evolutionists are turning into the very thing they hate, fanatics.


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Comments

  • kelly said on Sep 18, 2008....
    Yeah, pretty funny article.  All they said was that some "scientists" were studying it.  Nobody would talk to the reporter.

    ID does not survive Occam's razor.  
  • stopmediabias said on Sep 20, 2008....
    What are you afraid of?
  • SeanRenaud said on Sep 21, 2008....
    Lies being taught as truth.  I'm just as quick to jump down the throats of someone who claims that 9/11 was a controlled demolition
  • stopmediabias said on Sep 22, 2008....
    That is funny that you say that Sean because there have been scientists on your side who have lied about their statements regarding evolution and have been caught.  If you can't prove something conclusively is doesn't make people trying to prove it liars, if that were true then evolution has a lot of Bill Clintons.
  • SeanRenaud said on Sep 22, 2008....
    They've been caught, their individual hypothesises have been proven right, wrong or scrapped. It's not remotely the same as ID where nobody has found any evidence of it whatsoever.  Not one single iota.  The closest to proof ID has ever come is "I don't understand how this happened so it must be magic" it's kinda like 9/11 must be an inside job.
  • stopmediabias said on Sep 25, 2008....
    Ok Sean so rewind mankind and eventually you will get either a monkey or a fish.  Ya, I'd like to see the proof of this.
  • SeanRenaud said on Sep 25, 2008....
    It's been done, what part of that are you having the disconnect with?
  • stopmediabias said on Sep 26, 2008....

    The whole proof of the jump between monkey/fish to humans.

    The reason why humans are about a zillion years ahead of all other species of animals.

    Where the fuck did birds come from?

    Why didn't the Dinasaurs evolve back into existence?

    This issue with single celled creatures creating a new species of multicelled creatures.

    Proof of evolution in a lab?

    Testable theories of evolution in a lab?

    One single tiny bit of proof of any scientist coming up with organic material from non-organic material.

    These are just some of the issues I'm having a disconnect with.

  • SeanRenaud said on Sep 26, 2008....

     

     

    1. The whole proof of the jump between monkey/fish humans?  I’m not sure what you want here.  We’ve got a pretty good idea of the timeline timeline  we’ve even got scads of transitional and intermediate Transitional_fossil and even
    2. The reason why humans are about a zillion years ahead of all other species of animals?  Because we’ve been selected for our intelligence instead of any other trait.  You may as well ask why is the cheetah so much faster than a person, or why is a bear so much stronger than a mouse.  Evolution is about being well suited to your environment, it’s not about becoming the ultimate life form. 
    3. Where the fuck did birds come from?  Theropod dinosaurs.  In fact birds are one of the better examples of evolution because they were polite enough to leave a transitional species to fossilize which clearly displays both dinosaur and avian traits.
    4. Why didn’t dinosaurs evolve back into existence?  Because the conditions aren’t right. They would for example need to out compete mammals for the niches they filled.  Mammals (placental mammals more specifically) are a superior life form.  Given a similar task to perform (eat fish, gather vegetation, whatever) they nearly without fail out compete amphibians, reptiles and marsupials)  Giving birth to live young that in many cases are capable of walking within hours is a HUGE advantage.
    5. The issue with single celled creatures creating a new species of multicelled creatures?  This part is actually a bit over my head to be honest.  I understand it but not well enough to concisely explain it but I will try.  Basically two single celled creatures came together in away that was beneficial to both and eventually became a single lifeform.  The process is called endosymbiosis, and the same process happens to day with the various bacteria that live inside of most animals to aid with the digestion of food, or white blood cells and destroying invaders in our bodies.
    6. Proof of evolution in a lab?  As a general rule evolution is too long a process to accurately test in a lab.  However recent advances in science have produced proof of fruit flies evolving to fill specific niches.  They have yet (to my knowledge) to artificially create speciation (a creature incapable of producing fertile offspring with the other animals.  It’s important to note here that poodles and wolves can create viable offspring, and there is reason to believe polar bears and grizzlies can do the same which brings to question the definition of species.
    7. Testable theories of evolution in a lab?  As a general rule evolution is too long a process to accurately test in a lab.  However we have obser
    8. One single tiny bit of proof of any scientist coming up with organic material from non-organic material?  In 1953 Stanley L. Miller ad Harold C. Urey performed what is now known as the Miller-Urey Miller-Urey experiment testing a hypothesis that non-organic material under the proper conditions could form organic compounds called amino acids.  Many others have performed similar experiments over the last fifty years.  While nobody has yet managed to arrange.  Now there are several competing hypothesis/theories as to how exactly this happened in nature, the leading theory basically amounts to slime + lightning= amino acid.  But scientists aren’t certain on this.  The fact that organic compounds can be made from non-organics was proven fifty years ago and nobody has been able to disprove it.  They’ve merely been able to debate if the current method of creating them is the most probable.
  • stopmediabias said on Sep 28, 2008....

    #1-"We’ve got a pretty good idea of the timeline timeline  we’ve even got scads of transitional and intermediate Transitional_fossil"

    You've got transitional fossils that show the evolution of animals as they change throughout history.  You have no fossils that show or prove that humans evolved animals.  And as I've asked a number of times where are the in-betweens.  The wiki-timeline shows humans coming on the scene 200,000 years with a gap of millions of years between other lifeforms. 

    #2-So humans evolved from other creatures and natural selection seperated out the more intelligent humans which eventually led to what we have today.  Yet out of the trillions of different species we are the only one that is this far ahead in a tiny amount of time.  I don't know why athesits cannot see the uniqueness of the human existence. 

    #3-  I would like to know how someone can tell if a creature could fly by looking at fossils.  I sited an article about a study on the evolution of birds,

     http://www.reasons.org/tnrtb/2008/08/14/birds-terrorize-evolutionary-biologists/

     here's a quote:

     "A major source of the difficulty stems from the explosive diversification of modern birds when they first appear in the Tertiary periodThe so-called Tertiary radiation makes resolving bird relationships (from an evolutionary perspective) intractable because all the lineages appear virtually at the same time with no intermediate forms represented among extant groups."

    The article highlights how biologists are using DNA sequencing data instead of the usual anatomical comparisons to build evolutionary trees.  The idea is evolution on a molecular level should mirror evolution on a an organic level.  Here's another quote:

    "In many instances, however, evolutionary biologists are discovering that molecular phylogenies contradict those built using morphological features."

    #4-Awefully coincidental

    #5-the problem is why can't we take a single-celled creature and turn it into a multi-celled one in a lab?  Just the cell by itself is so unique the possiblilty of even createing a cell has never happened and never will.  And the chances of a random occurance in making or evolving a cell are monumental.

    #6-breeding fruit flies to resist certain types of pesticide is not creating a new species of fruit flies.

    #8-the Miller/Urey experiment did not create organic material from non-organic because oxygen was used in the experiment.  No scientist to date has created something organic from something non-organic.

    I don't dispute evolution as a vehicle for the animal kingdom to change in order to adapt to their environment.  The suggestion that humans share a common ancestor with animals is unproven. This is why I don't believe humans are a product of evolution.

  • kelly said on Sep 30, 2008....
    The hilarious part about it all is that since ID people cannot prove their hypotheses they resort to trying to tear down legitimate research in real science.
  • stopmediabias said on Oct 02, 2008....

    I didn't tear anything down. 

    State any time where anyone has created organic matter out of non-organic matter.  You can't because it has never happened.

  • SeanRenaud said on Oct 02, 2008....

    We did, the Miller Urey experiment and many that followed.

  • SeanRenaud said on Oct 02, 2008....

     

     

    1. Part of your disconnect here is that you’re haveig a hard time with the fact that not all, or even most animals fossilize.  We’re lucky we have as many fossils as we’ve got.  We can trace the primate line back 85 million years.  Your 200,000 years ago quote is patently false. 
    2. Basically yes.  What is this about atheists?  Who’s bring God into this conversation?
    3. Tell me you’re joking.  Please tell me that you’re joking that you don’t believe that scientists can have a pretty good idea of what an animal is capable of by looking at it’s bones.  The rest of your information is so off subject that I should ignore it but I’m going to cover it

    a.                Your quote about birds exploding onto the scene and tertiary radiation ignores the point that this ALWAYS happens, just birds got lucky and were a new species at the time.  There are five (seven) major extinction events in which more than half of known species die off and immediately following each one there is an immediate evolutionary explosion.  It always happens.  It’s just that birds show up just before a major extinction event that they survive.

    b.                New technology bringing new information to the table doesn’t disprove really anything.  What that statement says in effect is that while early observation would have us believe that dolphins and sharks are closely related it turns out that DNA testing proves that dolphins are more closely related whales, and hippos and Sharks are more closely related to sting rays and tuna. 

    1. It’s not coincidental at all.  It takes a very specific group of criteria for a specific animal to evolve.  Reptiles aren’t the dominate life form, we’d be more likely to see a return to sabertooth cats and whooly mammoths than dinosaurs since they have living relatives.
    2. We can’t even create life yet, we’ve just barely got amino-acids and DNA bases down.  As for creating a cell, where did you get the mistaken notion that we aren’t making them in labs.  We’ve been making oil eating microbes for twenty five years.   We’ve been cloning critters for ten, we’ve been making glow in the dark critters well just for kicks.
    3. You really need to define species here.  Granted I know scientists are having a difficult time with it.  But the accepted answer is that two animals that are incapable of crossbreeding (or produce only sterile off spring) are separate species.  However you are right that resisting pesticide is not a new species.
    4. What the hell does using oxygen have to do with creating organic from non organic?
  • stopmediabias said on Oct 06, 2008....

    I am not going to insult you here but I think you are becoming unhinged on this subject.

    Lets agree to disagree. 

    Except for number 3-How can someone tell by a bunch of fossils that the creature could fly?  Emu's, ostriches, chickens, penguins, all have feathers but don't fly.  You guys state birds evolved from prehistoric "birds," but how exactly do we know they could even fly. 

  • stopmediabias said on Oct 06, 2008....
    Sorry typo-The Miller Urey experiment used H2O which is an organic substance.
  • SeanRenaud said on Oct 06, 2008....
    3.  You've got to be joking on this.  You can tell by looking at a skeletal structure and how the muscles attached to those bones not only if somesomething could fly but you can approximate how well it could fly.  It's like saying you can't look at the frame of a helicoptor and tell that it's not  car.
     
    And the species they evolved from (up to a point) couldn't fly.  They were in the process of "learning" to fly which is why older fossils are much more similar to arms than wings.  Also Bats, pterasaurs and  billions of bugs would note that feathers aren't required for flight, and as you pointed out with emus, ostriches and kiwi having feathers doesn't mean you can fly.
     
    5. H20 is not an organic substance.  Water is not organic.  At all.
  • stopmediabias said on Oct 07, 2008....

      There is no pure H2O found in nature, pure H2O is inorganic.  The crap found in all water that contains carbon is what makes it organic. 

  • SeanRenaud said on Oct 07, 2008....
    Ok, while what you're saying isn't technically true.  Fog for example doesn't contain carbon, at least I see what your saying now.  First the experiment claims to have used H20 I have no reason to doubt that he used distilled water because this experiment was 50 years ago.  If his fuck up was as simple as he used contaminated water I would think that SOMEBODY would have pointed that out by now.
     
    The second is that carbon occurs naturally as well, infact is is the fourth most common element in the universe behind hydrogen, oxygen and helium.
     
    You want the real flaw in the Miller Urey experiment and to the best of my knowledge all subsequent experiments?  All the experiments have involved a rather steady flow of electricity.  Which proves only that organic compounds CAN be made of inorganic compounds under the right circumstances.  It's never been proven that lightning bolts, all the electricy you're going to get all at once could create organics. 
     
    Nor has anybody managed to take those amino acids and create a life form (though several think they are close) even intentionally much less set up an experiment where such things occur spontaneously.

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