• mulgere-hircum said on Aug 16, 2008....

  Brian, anyone who tries to "prove" God to you by using the Bible is foolish.  No one can "prove" God to you.  God is something you need to seek and find.  I am not saying that the seeking part is easy, nor am I guaranteeing that you will find.  That is totally up to the individual and the angle they enter the search with.  The Bible was written by people, of the male sex.  Now, men have always had a problem with homosexuality...not sure why really...but many men have taken issue with it.  But, honestly, the mention of homosexuality is very seldom in the Bible, and it is only really mentioned in the laws (where the Jewish community were setting up sexual limitations.  It says Homosexuality is a sin...but that follows INCEST is a sin and ADULTERY is a sin).  The people who, in America, who object to Homosexuality the most are Christians, sad to say.  But they are forgetting 3 things .  The 2 great commandments...love God and love your neighbor has yourself.  And they are forgetting the "Judge not" rule set out by Jesus.  Jesus was friends with all sorts of people himself, people that the Jewish community thought were "deviants".  He, in my opinion, is the one who represents God on the issue of how we should treat others who are different than us.  The problem is, people fear what they don't know and react in ways that are not healthy, and quite honestly Brian, they react in ways that are sinful.  So, I feel your anguish over this issue.
  
  Look, people misrepresent things all the time, sometimes mass amounts of people misrepresent things.  The Bible was written by those who Believe in God to express their love and devotion to God.  It was also, in some books, written for the purpose of recording Jewish History and Wisdom.  The New Testament was written by those who were followers of Jesus.  Chances are you ran into a Conservative Christian's blog(an American invention by the way...that is the division of Christian into Conservative and Liberal).  There are many liberal Christians out there, many Christians who don't view Homosexuality as a sin; Christians who don't take the Bible literally and understand that while it can hold authority in one's spiritual life, it can be in error on somethings being that it was written by people.  Homosexuality is one of those issues.
  
  I too rejected religion, mine being Christianity, for a good 10 years of my life.  I did come back to Christianity, but only when I came to terms with God for myself.  No one can make God real for you...that is something personal and it is okay to doubt and be agnostic.  Intellectually we are all agnostic because we have no way of really KNOWING that God exists.  That is where faith comes in.  People often think that having faith means not doubting.  This is not true.  Jesus doubted in the Garden of Gethsemane.  Thomas (who ended up dying for his faith) doubted that Jesus rose from the dead.  Doubt can be a great stepping stone for faith...but it can be a stumbling block as well.  It just depends on how you utilize it.  Don't let anyone bully you into believing something.  It is okay to reserve judgment and search your soul for answers...but on the same note, realize that not everything can be answered.  Also, not everything can be answered in the way you'd like it to be.
  
  I believe, Brian, that God is proud of you for not being judgmental.  Your heart is in the right place.  I also believe that God, too, anguishes when people are treated as less than human.  God anguishes when God's name is invoked in a way that disparages people.  We are the answer to that, though.  We can, in love, stand up for people who treated inhumanely.  Jesus did this, and called his followers to do this as well.
  
  I am truly saddened by what I see "Christians" doing.  Of course, it's not just Christians who act this way, but I am a Christian, and I love Christ, and I am totally saddened by the hatred that emanates from those who supposedly follow the greatest teacher of love.  Jesus did say you'll know a tree by its fruits...and unfortunately a lot of the fruit I see is not the kind Jesus bore.  Anyway, I perhaps have digressed a bit.  But I was touched by your post and I just wanted to share with you my thoughts.

• briannacarline93 said on Aug 16, 2008....

  thank-you for your insites on this subject. Oh and its brianna

• Eilan said on Aug 16, 2008....

  Now homosexuality to me is a genetic defect that happens when people are born.
  
  Is this really the choice of words you wanted to use here?
  

• briannacarline93 said on Aug 16, 2008....

  sorry, I'm only 15 and i've failed grammer since grade one, Im learning though

• Knowledge1 said on Aug 21, 2008....

  Leviticus 18:22..You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. Abomination: an action that is vicious or vile, an action that arouses disgust Brian, When you hear Christians or any other religious people speak about homsexuality. They are not saying that they hate homosexuals, they hate the practice of homsexuality, you understand. You need to look at the world, humans and animals. Out of every creature that is on the Earth, why is it that humans are homsexuals. All other inhabitants of the earth find a mate and reproduce, that is the the way God made us, this is the nature of all living things to be productive, to be fruitful and multiply. I understand that you don't believe in God, but if you take a little time and read the Bible, with the right teacher you will find that it is a book that can guide you. I belive that homosexuality is wrong, what is the purpose of two men or women getting married, when by nature they can't produce a family. You should thank God that neither one of your parents were homsexuals, because they would not have naturally been able to produce you.

• Knowledge1 said on Aug 21, 2008....

  Leviticus 18:22..You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. Abomination: an action that is vicious or vile, an action that arouses disgust Brianna, When you hear Christians or any other religious people speak about homsexuality. They are not saying that they hate homosexuals, they hate the practice of homsexuality, you understand. You need to look at the world, humans and animals. Out of every creature that is on the Earth, why is it that humans are homsexuals. All other inhabitants of the earth find a mate and reproduce, that is the the way God made us, this is the nature of all living things to be productive, to be fruitful and multiply. I understand that you don't believe in God, but if you take a little time and read the Bible, with the right teacher you will find that it is a book that can guide you. I belive that homosexuality is wrong, what is the purpose of two men or women getting married, when by nature they can't produce a family. You should thank God that neither one of your parents were homsexuals, because they would not have naturally been able to produce you.

• RollingC said on Aug 21, 2008....

  Briana....hello, pleased to meet you.   I too agree with what Mulg said.  I too was away from the church for many yrs....about 30 approximately until one day I came to terms with God and it wasn't a 1,2,3 thing either.  Took me awhile to accept God to tell the truth.
  Jesus did not judge but He did say ' sin no more ' .  Some regard that homosexuality is sin and some don't but believe me God loves us all.  It's up to you to come to grips with Him.  And you will find Him merciful if you approach His presence with sincerity of heart.
  That's really all the advice that I can give.
  God Bless
  Rc
  

• briannacarline93 said on Aug 22, 2008....

  A Response To  Knowledge1
   
  The Point of two woman or men getting married is love!, they fall in love and want to make it officiall. They of coarse cannot have children but they can adopt children that have been ignored or negleted. Whats the point of bringing more and more children on this earth if there are so many that don't have any parents. And I'm glad neither of my parents were gay. But to me it really wouldn't make a deference if they were, I would have just had different parents. Scientist can proove that homosexuality is a defect, And that it is not by choice. So on this subject I have to take the side of the scientists, because their data can be backed up with facts 

• Knowledge1 said on Aug 22, 2008....

  Brianna, I work at rubber lab. We make parts for Hewlett Packard, Toyota, Ford, Whirlpool; etc. If we shipped a defective part to one of those customers, they would not except that part. A defect means something that is not normal. I am only pushing this issue because it concerns me that a 15 year old would think that homosexuality is OK. Even if someone was born that way and sceintists say that it is a defect, then the person with the defect is in need of a healing. What if the whole world had this defect ? Would there be any children to adopt ? How could there be ? Now, I'm not persucuting or judging homosexuals because that is not my place because I am not perfect. But, I can't justify my faults by trying to make them right. I pray that you at least seek God, and use him as a guide in your life.

  God bless you

• mulgere-hircum said on Aug 24, 2008....

  Knowledge1, if homosexuality is a "defect" then I don't think a loving God would hold their homosexuality against them any more than God would hold Down Syndrome against a person who has it.  If homosexuality is genetically determined (which is what I think Brianna is saying) then, again, how could God hold that against the person when God is the creator of all things including one's genes?  I pretty much think that this is the case.  I don't know that anybody wakes up and says, "Gee, I want to be gay and get ridiculed by all the straight people for the rest of my life."  Rather, people are either born straight or gay.  It does not seem to be a choice.  But let's say that it is.  Let's pretend that you are right for a moment.  And let's bring Scripture into it.  Let's start off with this:
  
  
  "Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. For you will be treated as you treat others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged. "And why worry about a speck in your friend's eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying to your friend, 'Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,' when you can't see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye." (Mat 7:1-5 NLT)
  
  
  If you are going to hold people accountable for their "choices," don't you think that God is going to do the same to you?  The text you pull as scripture was written by Jewish Priests (all male).  Sure they were inspired by God, but does that make their writing "flawless!"  Is the Bible God?  The Bible is a particular people's account of their walk with God.  It surely does have spiritual authority; but not all of it applies to today exactly as it is written.  There are multiple examples of this.  For instance, you throw Leviticus 18:22 at Brianna to show that the Bible says that homosexuality is detestable, but you leave out Leviticus 20:13 which says:
  
  
  "If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense." (Lev 20:13 NLT)
  
  
  Are you really going to tell me that homosexuals should be put to death?  If you believe that homosexuality, as we understand it today, is detestable to God...then you cannot ignore what "God" commands you to do to homosexuals.  But I am guessing you do not believe that you should put anyone to death...you are probably thinking that "Jesus abolished the whole death as punishment thing.  But if you are thinking that, or something like it, what makes you choose that putting homosexuals death is bad, but homosexuality is still detestable to God?  Surely, you must know that Jesus hung around people who were considered "detestable" to God.
  
  The Pharisees said the same things about Jesus' friends as you have said about homosexuals.  Jesus called them all hypocrites and blind guides.  You may point out that Jesus said to the adulterer to go and sin no more...but adultery is a choice, whereas it is not clear (in light of modern science) that homosexuality is a choice.  If it is not a choice it is not a sin with which any loving God would hold the individual accountable for.  If you are thinking that, even if not a choice, it isn't the way God created us to be...but is the result of living in a sinful world...I can't argue against that.  But, let me caution you to remind you that WE ALL live in that broken world and therefore are tainted by its brokenness.  This brings us full circle back to Jesus' warning for us not to judge.
  
  We so presume that we have all of the secrets of heaven and God stored in our minds, but that is a false presumption.  We are simply fooling ourselves to think that we hold all of the truths in the palms of our hands.  People bash and discriminate against homosexuals, saying that they are sinners heading toward destruction unless they change their ways without ever stopping to think about grace and how God wants us to apply it to all human beings.  Let me end, for now at least, with a story from Jesus:
  
  
  "For the Kingdom of Heaven is like the landowner who went out early one morning to hire workers for his vineyard. He agreed to pay the normal daily wage and sent them out to work. "At nine o'clock in the morning he was passing through the marketplace and saw some people standing around doing nothing. So he hired them, telling them he would pay them whatever was right at the end of the day. So they went to work in the vineyard. At noon and again at three o'clock he did the same thing. "At five o'clock that afternoon he was in town again and saw some more people standing around. He asked them, 'Why haven't you been working today?' "They replied, 'Because no one hired us.' "The landowner told them, 'Then go out and join the others in my vineyard.' "That evening he told the foreman to call the workers in and pay them, beginning with the last workers first. When those hired at five o'clock were paid, each received a full day's wage. When those hired first came to get their pay, they assumed they would receive more. But they, too, were paid a day's wage. When they received their pay, they protested to the owner, 'Those people worked only one hour, and yet you've paid them just as much as you paid us who worked all day in the scorching heat.' "He answered one of them, 'Friend, I haven't been unfair! Didn't you agree to work all day for the usual wage? Take your money and go. I wanted to pay this last worker the same as you. Is it against the law for me to do what I want with my money? Should you be jealous because I am kind to others?' "So those who are last now will be first then, and those who are first will be last." (Mat 20:1-16 NLT)
  
  
  As I am sure you know, this parable is not merely talking about work, or money.  It is talking about God giving love/life/salvation to whom he pleases to give it to.  The workers who've been in the field all day represent us, or at least some of us, who think that we are the "True" followers of Christ, that we are on the right path, and have all the answers to life's enigmas.
  
  As a result, we walk around telling people what they must "do" (sounds alot like merit theology) in order to be saved.  We tell people that because they don't meet up to our standards, they most certainly won't met up to God's standard.  We "cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell [we] ourselves are...[We] strain your water so [we] won't accidentally swallow a gnat, but [we] swallow a camel...[We] are so careful to clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside [we] are filthy...Outwardly [we] look like righteous people, but inwardly [our] hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness." (Mat 23:15, 24, 25, 28 NLT)
  
  Sure Jesus was yelling the above at the Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes.  But his anger at them is certainly reflective of how what he thinks of us when we are unwilling to show unconditional grace.  This is my prayer for all Christians, including myself... that in all that we do we we extend God's grace to all of our fellow human beings.
  
  

• briannacarline93 said on Aug 24, 2008....

  A Response To  mulgere-hircum

  Your post has made me smile, finally someone that understands what i am trying to say.  It sadens me to see people use the bible for their own prejudice. you have absolutly made my point, thank-you.

• mulgere-hircum said on Aug 24, 2008....

  Thanks Brianna.  May God bless you for your compassion toward others. Never lose it!
  
  I do understand where knowledge1 is coming from and I am not trying to invalidate his point of  view, but I find it completely inconsistent with the teachings of Christ. We all have to wrestle with these issues and try to do what is right, but I just can't see exclusion and shunning as methods for achieving what's right.  God could've shunned me, he could've shunned knowledge1, he could've shunned all of us, but instead he included the whole world (out of love) in his plan for salvation.  He chose to die in our place, to take the burden of life in the world upon his shoulders so that every human being, including those who condemned, beat, crucified, and betrayed him, could be saved.  Now, I am not saying that everyone accepts this gift (it is a gift...not something we earn or deserve) or that everyone (including the Hitlers of the world) goes to heaven.  What I am saying is that God does not discriminate against anyone (including the Hitlers of the world) when it comes to offering his Grace, no matter how bad we or others think we are.  But I digress.
  
  On homosexuality, the Bible was written during a time that little was known about it.  I mean from the look of it, it seems pretty unnatural.  We look a the natural order of things and see that male + female = procreation.  Then we take procreation and realize that it is compatible with survival.  If everyone were homosexual we would be extinct in no time at all.  We also know that, for some reason or another, many men are particularly skeeved by homosexuality (perhaps because they do not understand it).
  
  Take those two factors and put themt together, and it is completely understandable as to why the authors of the Bible wrote what they did against homosexuality.  It "seems" to go against nature and thus it goes against God's intent for creation.  Completely understandable (not necessarily acceptable) for people to hold that view from that time period all the way up to modern science.
  
  Ah, but now that we know of genetics and understand that our genetic code determines who we are and what our orientation (not just sexual orientation), and that view is no longer able to be held.  I don't judge those of the past who held that view, heck I don't judge those who still hold that view, any more than I judge Heraclitus for believing the universe to be made of Fire, or the critics of Galileo for holding on to the belief that the Earth was the center of the Universe.  These things take time to adjust to.   But as Christians, in the spirit of Christ, we must begin to see that God does not judge those for being as he created them.  And, as I said in my previous post, if we are to view this as a result of us living in a broken world...what makes us think that God will be forgiving of our brokenness but not of others brokenness.
  
  There is a hypocrisy here that needs to be removed, in humility and love.  People's adamant refusal to not love others different themselves is a result of this broken world as well, and it is more damning than any sexual orientation could possibly be because the refusal to love comes from one's heart where as the other comes from one's genes.
  
  Again, it is silly and hypocritical to view homosexuals as being the result of original sin, since according to that same Bible, we all are a result of original sin.  Christians need to get past this legalistic mode of "do this or else" or "be this or else."  Jesus expects no less of us than to be as he was...that is a tall order and with the grace of God, we can all live up to that tall order (even if imperfectly).

• mulgere-hircum said on Aug 24, 2008....

  One other thing I forgot to mention, but was definitely implying.  With our understanding of homosexuality in light of genetics...it is no longer acceptable for us to hold that homosexuality is unnatural.  It is natural, otherwise it wouldn't be happening in nature.  Genes are natural...thus our genetic make-up is natural.  It is fruitless to go into the "God didn't create it" bit, because we only KNOW nature as it is around us.  The Biblical authors, too, only knew nature as it was around them...they just didn't have our technology...so they understood nature differently.  But, we can no longer accept that homosexuality is not natural based on what we know.  

• briannacarline93 said on Aug 24, 2008....

  mulgere-hircum , Thank-You for writting this these posts. Your view on things is  like mine on this subject accept that i'm not educated on the bible and christianity as much as you are. I never grew up around religion but i've known and met so many people that are so blinded by their fears of not understanding properly. But they will always exsist but so will people like us (people that aren't so predjudice). So thank you for sheding some light for me and others on this subject. 

• mulgere-hircum said on Aug 24, 2008....

  Glad to be of service... B^)

• mulgere-hircum said on Aug 24, 2008....

  And that is very insightful of you Brianna.  The people like that will always exist, no matter whether they are religious or not.  There are many blinded, fearful non-religious people out there as well.  People are people and they will always exist in their various forms.  But as you also insightfully pointed out, there will always be people that aren't so predjudice.  This comment is very, very humble and insightful.  Because none of us are ever completely predjudice free, are we?  You are right, some of us are much less predjudiced, some of us more so.  I think that the ability to notice that flaw in all of us, including ourselves, is helpful in catching and removing any predjudice we might find within us.  Removing predjudice starts with us.  Very, very insightful Brianna.  Thanks.

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