• TinSoldier said on Aug 12, 2008....

  I don't always agree with Sullivan, but I think that he's mostly right here.
  
  The thing that has worried me most about Russia's actions in Georgia is our own impotence in the matter, the seeming hypocrisy viewed both by ourselves and the world at large.
  
  Not to mention how thin we have been stretched operationally.
  
  I'm still wondering what the fallout will be (no pun intended).
  

• stopmediabias said on Aug 13, 2008....

  Sullivan as usual has a screw loose.  One glaring thing I saw was he mentions the US didn't get the "critical 2nd resolution," how many resolutions did we have against Saddam that he thumbed his nose at?

  To try to make any kind of comparision to between what Russia is doing and what we did in Iraq is really pushing it.  Russia: 1-didn't go to the UN, 2-didn't get any other countries involved, 3-Did have a legitmate reason, 4-Georgia doesn't torture and murder its own people,5-Georgia didn't threaten the world, 6-Georgia wasn't responsible for the deaths of millions of people, etc etc. 

• bloc said on Aug 13, 2008....

  i'm amazed you put torture on that list. You are right, torture is different. Russia isn't torturing georgians as far as we know, but we were torturing Iraqis. 
  
  
  Saddam didn't threaten the world. Georgia was more of a threat to russia than Iraq was to us. Georgia is in Russia's back yard. Iraq could do nothing to us.

• stopmediabias said on Aug 14, 2008....

  Yes an the only way you can prove we tortured Iraqis as a matter of US policy is by watering down the definition of torture, been there done that.

  Saddam started three major wars and was responsible for the deaths millions.  What would make you think it is responsible to assume, if given the chance he wouldn't continue his crap if still in power? 

  Regardless of what you believe as to how we should have gotten him out of power is one thing, maybe knowing what we know now we could have come up with a different way, but you must agree getting him out of power and into the grave was the right thing to do. 

• bloc said on Aug 14, 2008....

  induced hypothermia is not a wateredown definition of torture. Hell, the CIA killed a guy during interrogation and you know that.
  
  
  "Saddam started three major wars"
  
  
  It's amazing how selective your memory is. We wanted him to start one of those and we helped him do it, gave him military intel during it, and tried to cover up his use of biological weapons during it. Why don't you hold us to the same standard?
  
  
  "but you must agree getting him out of power and into the grave was the right thing to do. "
  
  
  This question can't be answered without knowing the cost. Was it worth 5 trillion dollars over the long run and hundreds of thousands of lives? I say no.

• stopmediabias said on Aug 15, 2008....

  You said Saddam didn't threaten the world and I pointed out he started three wars.  Obviously in any war we lean towards who is in our interest to win.  My point is if you look at Saddam's history with war, chemical weapons, torture, his treatment of his people, his son's, these things raise the odds of him starting another war. 

  The monetary cost in this context is irrelevant, and as I've said before it is a tragedy we have to weigh human life.  The number of Iraqis Saddam killed himself, or was responsible for killing shows that another 10 or 20 years he would have killed more than the liberation.  Along with this the chances of him arming or supporting a terrorist that in turn would kill a lot of people.

  We have different definitions of torture, simple, so we never agree.

• bloc said on Aug 15, 2008....

  in the same time period america has started more wars than Saddam. That alone is not justification for anything.
  
  
  Again I ask you to explain why torturing someone to death is not torture by your definition. The CIA did such in Iraq without anyone being held accountable for it.

• silverwhisper said on Aug 15, 2008....

  smb is still here, huh? who knew?
  
  ed

• kelly said on Aug 15, 2008....

  This week I've been literally cringing listening to Bush and Rice scold Russia for doing things that the US has been doing for the past 5 years.  It takes a lot of gall to be able to do that.  Then again, the world seems to belong to the people who are not afraid to be complete jerks.

• kelly said on Aug 15, 2008....

  silver:  Heh...  :-)

• stopmediabias said on Aug 16, 2008....

   Bloc-but by comparison the United States only goes to war for the right reasons.  The wars we have fought over the years were for the overall good of the world.

  The CIA story you keep quipping about is not as cut and dried as that, its a teeny bit more complicated.  I'm certainly not going to try to debate the torture issue with you again, that is a waste of energy for both of us. 

  Kelly- Solution?  What would you have them do?

• bloc said on Aug 16, 2008....

  " Bloc-but by comparison the United States only goes to war for the right reasons.  The wars we have fought over the years were for the overall good of the world."
  
  
  the philipines, vietnam, mexico, Iraq, grenada, etc. Not for good. 

• kelly said on Aug 16, 2008....

  "Bloc-but by comparison the United States only goes to war for the right reasons.  The wars we have fought over the years were for the overall good of the world."
  
  
  You know those comic books you read as a kid where it was always the good guys against the bad guys and your side was always right?  Those were just comic books.

• stopmediabias said on Aug 16, 2008....

  Then why did we go to war with those countries if not for the overall good?
   
   
   

• kelly said on Aug 16, 2008....

  Are you being purposely naive?

• bloc said on Aug 16, 2008....

  for hte same reasons most wars are fought; power and resources. 

• ALIENated said on Aug 16, 2008....

  
  SMB: you waste your breath on those who think we are no better than
  bad guys like Russia. Why they remain here instead of going somewhere
  more to their liking, I will never know. I do know that Andrew Sullivan is
  a homo. Why would I listen to anyone who is obviously mentally impaired,
  as someone who makes that choice certainly is.
  
  Read this fast before bloc deletes it. ha ha ha
  
  

• kelly said on Aug 17, 2008....

  And why people like you remain here rather than move to some totalitarian state is beyond me.  After all, violently stomping out dissent is your style....

• stopmediabias said on Aug 17, 2008....

  So we went to war with those countries for power and resources?  With the exception to Mexico I think that is just about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.  So we draft people into the military so we can capture more power and resources?

  Just Iraq alone, if we wanted its resources we would buy them, for far cheaper than taking it by force.  You people (I think) are smart people and have to know this, unless there are other motives behind your statements, like America hating.

  Kelly-Alien brings up a good point, why are you people here?  I'm under the belief that America is not perfect and certainly has done our share of fucked up things but in comparison to any other place in the world I think we have it good here and by no means should be compared with countries like Russia or Iraq. 

  Now without answering my previous question, please answer this one:  Is there one good thing you can say about America?

• bloc said on Aug 17, 2008....

  "So we draft people into the military so we can capture more power and resources?"
  
  
  um, yeah. CAn you tell me why we went to war in the philipines with the purpose of preventing them from having independence. It's because we wanted a colony in that theatre to project power. 
  
  
  " Is there one good thing you can say about America?"
  
  
  Good and bad only exist relative to one another. America as a country is better than most in most respects, but this doesn't mean it's some knight on a white horse trying to sprinkle fairy dust over the world. 

• andora said on Aug 17, 2008....

  hi kelly, thanks for speaking truth to denial
  
  if our standard is brought down because people like SMB and ALIENation believe that compared to the very corrupt, we are better, then we have already lost the moral highground. That's like saying because I only killed one gay student that makes me better than Iran because they recently hung 300 men, many of whom were there for being gay.
  
  These bloggers are either housebound neo-cons with pensions from Ratheon or some such military cabal that stands to benefit from the status quo. Very few real people stay at SC for very long because they lose heart over the heartless rationale of these freaks that camp out here constantly squashing the voice of human rights and integrity with propaganda that is all about hopelessness and continued violence as a solution to our problems.
  
  it is refreshing to read that there are those here that care enough about integrity to look at the facts from outside the propaganda box. Stopmediabias is typical of denial in that it calls itself that which it is actively out to destroy. This type of denial has found its position in the person of corporate reality, rarely bothering to investigate the truth of the masses, instead looks to demoralize them. Your voices bloc and kelly are really important to the real people who come here and remain largely silent because they are sensitive to these heartless attacks - thanks for speaking out at SC
  

• andora said on Aug 17, 2008....

  forgive me if i botch this quote, but it is from memory
  
  "'the voice of discontent is the necessity of progress"'
                         - Thomas Edison
  
  to have a voice of discontent about my homeland, when in fact my homeland is besot with a self-destructive form of denial, is love in action, is Christ-like
  
  to blindly accept the status quo is at least misinformed, yet to accept a corrupt status quo after getting informed is a strange reality for me to relate to very closely.
  
  in saying this i would never wish to discard your voices stop and alien, because you are vital to the resolution of this polarized and heinous conversation. I personally do not believe that there is human garbage, even if i insult you by calling you denial. It is hard for me to relate to your point of view because it all seems like rhetoric from the same wizard of oz militaristic fantasy science fiction movie
  
  I love the ideal of a representative republic, but as Leonard Cohen says, Democracy is coming to the United States...someday there will be an auditable paper trail at the ballot box that would get us closer to realizing human dignity
  

• D6fer said on Aug 17, 2008....

  A perfect storm is brewing for the U.S. I am afraid......Russia, Iran, and China have the resources necessary to destroy a divided America.....technology, manpower, and money....not to mention our own liberal subversives to allow it all to happen.....I wonder how much danger we will have to be in before your (bloc, kelly, andora) basic sense of self preservation will kick in and you will see the truth and seek out the help of people like us (Alien, SMB, myself)
  
  Clinton did away with the protection we had against EMP attacks (Electro Magnetic Pulse) seems he thought it was a dividend of the cold war ending.....now once again, we are vulnerable to such an attack.....all it would take is one nuke launched from a freighter to detonate at 25 miles or so above the U.S. and we are back to the 1800's.......our power grid gone......no more phones.....no T.V. no Radio......most of our vehicles would stop in the streets.
  
  While we debate the horrors of torture and the moral compass of the U.S. our enemies plan our demise, you could change policy 180 degrees tomorrow, and it would do nothing to change their minds.
  

• andora said on Aug 18, 2008....

  hi sheltercrow I'm the choir you're singing to
  
  do you find it strange that no one wants to know the evidence?
  
  Below is an excerpt of the many posts above...
  
  This admission by the FBI is astonishing and raises fundamental questions about the war on terrorism, as well as the role of the US media. Was Osama bin Laden convicted for the cold-blooded murder of nearly 3,000 innocent Americans in the US court of public opinion by means of a media circus? Did the US government and the corporate media collude to deceive the American people? If so, then a colossal miscarriage of justice has occurred.
  
  YES THERE HAS BEEN A GIANT MISCARRIAGE OF JUSTICE
  
  WAKE UP AND SMELL OUR NEW DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE RUN BY GRADUATES OF PAT ROPBERTSONS "CHRISTIAN" COLLEGE. Do you think that we the people should stand up and clean house? Most Americans are slaves and really do not have the will to respond to events that are this big...we have become a nation of uneducated voyeurs. This is not my judgment, this is my observation...I find this nation (my home nation) to be hypnotized  and all too ready to lay down to corruption. Then you have the die-hards that crow about being the BEST nation in the world...many of them here.
  
  The US is a global military cabal that is far more frightening than what Hitler had at his command. I often wondered what type of person could turn their backs and look the other way when atrocity became common-place in Germany during the Reich Stag...now I know because my fellow Americans are ignoring the sign posts and have no interest in exploring history enough to know that we are once again poised upon the precipice of a repeat. I am angry and disappointed all of the time, especially at the people who choose to deny the truth.
  
  You have certainly offered very compelling evidence, where are the concerned citizens. Where are the Patriots?
  

• andora said on Aug 18, 2008....

  I have a friend named Jeff that worked at the towers as a stock broker, he escaped but many of his friends did not
  
  he told me that for weeks prior to the attacks there was US military setting up simulated war games operations all around the towers simultaneously with electrical crews throughout the two buildings that were installing "security systems" that he thought was entirely strange.
  
  There was no fuselage found at the Pentagon and the section that was taken out was under construction, no Pentagon personnel. Even so 180 people were killed with Don Rumsfeld being honored as a hero.
  
  Then there is the situation with the Columbia Space Craft and the Red ARC over Iraq...do you know about this fold of this disgusting story?
  

• stopmediabias said on Aug 18, 2008....

  Bloc-um...who is in control of the Philipines, Germany, and Japan?  I would think if power and resources was the prime motivation for going to war these countries would be the peoples republic of America.

  Andora-You say a lot but you really don't say anything at all.  And this is a gem right here: "SMB and ALIENation believe that compared to the very corrupt, we are better"..

  I would think Americans are better than countries who can be defined as very corrupt.

  ROFL-Andora good God!  Your coming up with crap even bloc and Kelly would think is nuts, well maybe not Kelly, but wow are you actually re-reading what you write?

• bloc said on Aug 18, 2008....

  @smb
  your reply doesn't make sense to me.

• D6fer said on Aug 18, 2008....

  hmmmmmmm.......did I just witness an alt outing himself?....... hi sheltercrow I'm the choir you're singing to.
  
  bloc.....did you delete a comment from sheltercrow? If not, I think andora may have made a big mistake here!
  
  
  

• stopmediabias said on Aug 19, 2008....

  Bloc-I was pointing out that the United States does not conquer and doesn't go to war for power and resources (not as a primary reason) if they did we would own the above countries, not just help them rebuild and hold bases there.

  D6-Could be, I don't know.

• bloc said on Aug 19, 2008....

  @smb
  
  
  your logic is flawed. Often times soft power is more effective than hard power. The fact that we use soft power is in no way proof that power isn't our motivation.
  
  
  @d6
  I don't remember deleting anything.

• stopmediabias said on Aug 19, 2008....

  soft power?  Isn't that an oxymoron.

  what exactly is soft power?

• silverwhisper said on Aug 19, 2008....

  smb quoth:
  i'm under the belief that america is not perfect.

  
  forgive me smb but your entire posting history suggests the contrary.
  
  ed

• bloc said on Aug 19, 2008....

  soft power

• stopmediabias said on Aug 21, 2008....

  Silver-I don't think I've ever heard a legitimate reason to criticise our country.
   
  Bloc-So is this soft power our fault?  If our influence based on how attractive our culture is along with the other reasons is that a bad thing.  By comparison to a lot of other countries we have shown we are better off.  Look at the unemployment, GDP, the poor in comparison to other poor around the world, our health care system, our capitalist system, etc.. we are miles ahead of everyone.

• silverwhisper said on Aug 21, 2008....

  smb: if by your own admission we aren't perfect, this means by defintion there are flaws. ignoring a flaw however doesn't make it go away.
  
  by comparison: that pesky rattle in your car won't stop until you take a look at the problem & can identify whether it's a simple problem that requires a bit of epoxy or is a warning sign your transmission is about to go. and until you look at it, you really can't be sure which is the case, or if it's something else completely.
  
  as you know i'm sometimes frustrated in our exchanges, but this is the reason: i think that refusing to acknowledge such flaws is potentially the same thing.
  
  btw: do you distinguish between not criticizing our country and not criticizing our government?
  
  ed

• stopmediabias said on Aug 21, 2008....

  I am not happy my country has aborted 50 million babies, doesn't regulate the media, secure our borders, have oversight on our judges, etc....  I think our country has let these things go to far and it hurts us as Americans.

  Our government represents our country as does our military.  There are government officials from both sides who have been corrupt to the bone.  But the majority of our government I believe are good people and believe they are doing what is best.  I defend President Bush because as with all of my friends on the left they pounce on every negative thing and give no credit for anything, I think this is unfair.

  I cannot stand Bill Clinton and thought he should have been thrown right out of office for the lieing thing and Waco, at the same time I can acknowledge that he did reside over a good economy, he reformed welfare, managed to convince a lot of people a blowjob is not sexual relations.  These are positive things.  Weigh the costs of all the bad things America has done in the last 100 years versus all the great things we have done.  I think we come out ahead.

• bloc said on Aug 22, 2008....

  a yes, the lies of bill clinton are terrible while the lies of Bush are to be defended. It's laughable. 

• silverwhisper said on Aug 23, 2008....

  smb: i can understand some of what you say but...i'm sorry, you think the government should regulate the media? the founders of this nation enshrined the freedom of speech as one of our most fundamental principles in a constitutional amendment. i think that regulation of the media would be a vastly graver blow to our national identity than anything any of our leaders have done to date: anything.
  
  the government should "have oversight on our judges"? er...smb, our judges are a part of our government. you know, that entire judicial branch thing?
  
  you see, i think the core difference b/n you and me: i don't think the government represents the country. i think the government is supposed to serve the country. your view would, i believe, invert that, and to me that's a very bad thing indeed.
  
  ed

• stopmediabias said on Aug 23, 2008....

  Bloc-Clinton was impeached for lying and you cannot prove President Bush lied about anything.
   
  Silver-The media thing is based on this:  Any newspaper is allowed to publish absolutely damning news (child molestation, rape, embezzlement,) on anyone, front page in big bold letters.  At the same time if the charges are found out later to completely and conclusely false the newspaper is under no obligation to give the new news equal coverage.  This happens everyday in our country and it shouldn't.
   
  I think all judges cases should be reviewed and when outrageous sentences are passed the judge should be either demoted or removed.  When statistics show the recidivism rate is very high for child sex offenders and a judge gives a guy who's been busted twice before a year in jail he has no business being a judge.  The same with judges who give sentences way in the other direction because they have some sort of prejudice.
   
  This is how our government serves us by representing us.  When their is a disaster some where our government is usually the first to step in and help because that is how we Americans are.     

• TinSoldier said on Aug 23, 2008....

  Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

• bloc said on Aug 23, 2008....

  Bush has clearly lied about a few things. Uranium from niger is one example. Ties between Atta and Iraq is another.

• silverwhisper said on Aug 23, 2008....

  smb: and if a newspaper does such a thing, guess what? the power of the free market will tell them that was a stupid thing to do as people learn of such things. you don't think the NYT took a hit in subscribers after the jayson blair fiasco? at the heart of it, the power of capitalism is itself the equalizer there.
  
  as to judges: you know, the problem w/ you or me saying "that judge has cracked" is we don't know the facts or laws that apply to the case. when a crime boss gets off on a technicality, that's a damned shame...but the fact is that every day, others are convicted, while others are convicted wrongfully. prejudice is in the eye of the beholder, i find.
  
  as to first-responders in a disaster: actually, i've always found that individual citizens step up before the government does.
  
  ed

• D6fer said on Aug 23, 2008....

  bloc.....they removed something like 500 tons of yellow cake uranium from Iraq......was that a lie?
  
  Ed.....so you don't support the fairness doctrine I take it?
  

• silverwhisper said on Aug 24, 2008....

  d6: where in the world do you get that idea?
  
  ed

• stopmediabias said on Aug 24, 2008....

  Bloc- President Bush was given the same information as everyone else, if after the fact certain information turns out to be non-verifiable that is not a lie.  And the British believe the Niger claim as did Senate investigations.

  Silver-the free market doesn't see it.  Unfortunately we have citizens and politicians in this country who are smart people but literally only read the headlines or brouse over the front page. 

• bloc said on Aug 24, 2008....

  @d6
  Let's say I have a jar of peanut butter in my house right now. Tonight ed goes on t.v. and says "bloc is in negotiations with d6 to buy large quantities of peanut butter from him". That would be a lie wouldn't it? You and I haven't negotiated peanut butter sales.
  
  
  @smb
  Bush was given more info than everyone else. Second, he was given info that put a lot of doubt on many of the claims he made. He choose to make many claims based on the word of one unreliable source, curveball, when there were other sources saying it was false. He did not say anything publically about the doubts and exaggerated the claims. That is being terribly dishonest at best.

• silverwhisper said on Aug 25, 2008....

  smb: on what do you base your opinion that the free market doesn't see it?
  
  ed

• stopmediabias said on Aug 25, 2008....

  Bloc-unless you talk in specifics I can't help you.  My problem is President Bush was given a load of information, took that information to heart as did everyone in the world, later portions of the information are found to be unable to be substantiated, and suddenly it is lies lies lies!  And now after the fact you guys needle at every tiny inconsistancy and ignore glaring truths, like the fact that he did try to hide WMD's,  and admitted later he was in the process of making more.  There is also the fact if you take Al Gores public statements before Iraq, they show if he had won the White House he would have gone into Iraq just like President Bush.

  Silver- I agree with you that when business does things that are bad, the free market punishes them.  With the newspaper business there are people that just read the headlines, and if the headlines are either flat out lies or gross misrepresentations then the free market is being hoodwinked without seeing it. 

• bloc said on Aug 25, 2008....

  "they show if he had won the White House he would have gone into Iraq just like President Bush."
  
  
  this isn't true. Here is one specific for you. Bush knew that many of his claims had one single source, curveball, and he knew that many believed curve ball was a liar. He choose to take those unsubstantiated claims and spread them as certain truths. That is a lie in my book.

• D6fer said on Aug 25, 2008....

  the founders of this nation enshrined the freedom of speech as one of our most fundamental principles in a constitutional amendment. i think that regulation of the media would be a vastly graver blow to our national identity than anything any of our leaders have done to date: anything.
  
  This is where I get that ed........The fairness doctrine is a tool to silent talk radio......where is your love for free speech now?
  

• stopmediabias said on Aug 26, 2008....

  Bloc-so President Bush had a piece of information that he personally knew it wasn't true and used it stating it was true.  No, I don't buy it.  Logically it makes no sense, there is no motive (believe it or not even Republicans don't like war), and you also don't know what classified information may have come with this unsubstansiated evidence.  Please, specifically what lie? 

• bloc said on Aug 26, 2008....

  I already specified a lie. Here's another. The Bush admin claimed that we weren't building permanent bases. We did.

• bloc said on Aug 26, 2008....

  Here's another big lie: "we do not torture"

• stopmediabias said on Aug 26, 2008....

  Maybe he changed his mind. :>

• bloc said on Aug 26, 2008....

  well, he said it after the fact.

• silverwhisper said on Aug 29, 2008....

  smb: if people don't read, how is this the media's fault? republicans are supposed to be big on personal responsibility, so where's the responsibility in absolving readers of not reading? i mean, that's like blaming a teacher for a schoolkid who goofs off all semester and flunking a class.
  
  ed

• D6fer said on Nov 08, 2008....

  marking

• kelly said on Nov 08, 2008....

  "republicans are supposed to be big on personal responsibility"
  
  
  Good point, silver.  In fact, Republicans use that bromide only when it works well for them.  Neither bush, nor Cheney, nor Rove believe that they should be held responsible for anything.  Ever.
  
  
  As you say, the Republican mantra of "personal responsibility" is elicited only when it's someone else's responsibility.

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