Grammar: field of linguistics that cover the rules governing the use of any language.
Anarchy: A word who's definition seems to always begin with 'absence of'.
I put those two definitions there only so you will understand when I say my English is close to anarchy.
When first coming to SC I commented to several people the fact that I couldn't write well. And its true. If an English professor graded my posts they would literally be covered with red marks. I've largely forgotten the rules governing the language. Consequently when I write, its very close to the way I speak.
Couple this with my Texas drawl with far west influences, you can imagine what I sound like. When young I had a terrible time. I basically learned the language from my mother and grandparents who were all from central Texas. When I was just under three we moved to New Mexico. In first grade I was a riot.
The word for door was 'dowa'.
Breakfast was 'braakfast.
Forty was 'farty'.
And dinner was lunch. Their dinner to me was supper.
The peals of laughter alone were enough for me to shed many parts of that accent.
Experts say everyone has an accent from their own geographical location. Southern English is the largest accent group in the country. It also has the unwanted distinction of being the most negatively evaluated. I read from the same experts that the only accent which is as negatively evaluated is 'New York', whatever that is.
Good spoken and written English reflects intelligence and education. People from the south are in something of a pickle here. Other accent groups hear southern English as sounding dumb. I'm sure you've heard that. I've heard many that sound dumb myself.
I end many sentences with prepositions. I know that's from the south. It reminds me of Jean Smart on the old sitcom 'Designing Women' telling a joke:
A woman from the south was in the restroom and a yankee woman came in. The southern woman said to her "where ya'll from?" The yankee woman said "I am from an area where we do not end our sentences with a preposition". The southern woman said "Oh, where ya'll from...bitch?"
I still cling to a lot of southern expressions. Ya'll is a given. Another one my wife has much fun with is "fixin' to". She always laughs and says "you fixin' to do what?"
I'm stuck with it. I'll never know good grammar. And probably sound dumb to some even though the west has removed some of that accent.
I'm wondering if ya'll have an accent people in other areas notice?
Do ya'll have good grammar that could be graded?
Do southunas sound dumb to you?
beyondtheveil posted on Aug 08, 2008
| views: 644
Comments
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uniquely-ironic said on Aug 08, 2008....
I love a southern drawl on a man! Get's me all twitterpated. I realize that in the "business" world it's not considered desireable, but so what?!My own english is very west coast. I actually write better than I speak, grammatically speaking. I have a few back woods phases that pop out now and then. The most annoying thing is my learned broken english from my mom's family. They are all native germans so their grammar structure is sometimes awkward, and having grown up around it I still slip into it now and then.I have polished up my speech a lot since moving out on my own. I've been told that I have a large vocabulary. (I like words) My spelling, however, is still pretty attrocious and I'm thankful for spell check. -
botoni said on Aug 08, 2008....
Good English is something of which I would like to be proud. (I so want to write "Good English is something to be proud of....bitch."....lol) My father spoke very proper English, my mother, though born in Canada spoke with a tinge of Swedish accent. My childhood friends mostly spoke German and Ukranian. The result of all of these influences has left me with the awful habit of emulating the speach of anyone who is having a conversation with me. Basically.....it's awful.... -
skald said on Aug 08, 2008....
I love southern accent. I think it sounds good. Drawl makes you understand better because people who drawl don't speak too quickly. Another kind of English I love is Scottish.
I would love to hear you speak. and by the way I would not know if your English was not perfect. lol
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Eilan said on Aug 08, 2008....
Because of where I live (Appalachian Ohio, which covers much more of the state than you'd think) I have a little bit of a twang that's been slightly tempered by the time I spent living in Northern Ohio.
Sometimes I write the way I talk; it just depends on my audience. I spent a lot of time in the mid-1990's in formal-academic-paper-writing mode, and I've found it to be a tough habit to break.
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the_infernal_optimist said on Aug 08, 2008....
My formal writing English is close to impeccable. The way I write here, while still more formal than the way I talk, is less irreproachable and I don't care.
I do have a bit of a Southern accent, and I say "Y'all," "ain't," "fixin' to," all that stuff. It's just what I grew up with, and if I'm not in a formal setting, I'd rather be plainspoken even if it's not as grammatically correct as it could be.
Besides, we have some colorful expressions! ;-) "Ain't seen you in a coon's age!"
~Infernal
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secretlife said on Aug 08, 2008....
i think a southern accent on a man is irresistable! to me, nothing sounds sexier than "darlin" said with that southern drawl....i'm a jersey girl beyond, and i have been told i have a touch of a jersey accent-i know for sure i say cawfee for that beverage i imbibe in the mornings- and wader for the other beverage that comes out of my sink....i have a good friend who is from Long Island, and I do know that my east coast accent is nothing compared to hers! i absolutley LOVE to listen to her talk! -
beyondtheveil said on Aug 08, 2008....
unique- Twitterpated? It sounds like ruffled around the edges. That's a new one on me. The backwoods expressions must be in the thousands. I've heard some that almost left me in tears. I wasn't raised around people with a different first language, but I can see how it could interfere - although I do swap words around on my own.
bot- Ha ha, I loved your (bitch) sentence, now you've got it! Childhood friend influences are strong, there would be some effect. It makes me wonder, if we were talking, would you unconsciously try the Texas drawl?
skald- You are so right. Drawls do make people speak slowly. Although I've been more of a slow talker all my life, I still notice it when I go deeper into the south. I think, these people talk slower than I do.
eilan- I write better than I talk. I believe that's natural due to the time thinking while typing with two fingers. I have a question for you. A short time ago I had a conversation with a girl from Ohio (don't know which part) who spoke so fast I had to listen closely to understand her. Is that natural for your state or a part of it?
infernal- Did you grow up in the south to get that accent or did it slip in on you later? If you grew up with "fixin' to", it makes me think you're from there. I know all about the "coon's age", grew up with it myself.
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the_infernal_optimist said on Aug 08, 2008....
Right you are, beyond. I've always lived in the South. :)
~Infernal
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beyondtheveil said on Aug 08, 2008....
secret- Hey girl, I've missed you but hope you had a good time. And you know, us southern guys can be irresistable at times. At least it worked snagging a Rhode Island girl - now there's an accent.
Do you know if those experts were talking about (New York) city or state? Probably the city or places like the Bronx, you think?
Enjoy your cawfee.
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uniquely-ironic said on Aug 08, 2008....
Ruffled around the edges. Hmmm, that's about right for twitterpated. The back woods expressions my grandmother used always left me with a stupified look. I'd be sitting there imagining "slicker than snot" , "jumping jeehosifat" , "dumber than a door knob" and such.As for broken english, I can do a passable version that will get me out of trouble if the occaision calls for it. It has also turned my brain into a universal translator for other forms of broken english. There are very few accents I can't decode on demand. -
Eilan said on Aug 08, 2008....
I normally don't talk fast unless I'm nervous, but I have a lot of trouble understanding my future sister-in-law because of how fast she talks. I've encountered other fast talkers in my area as well, and even though I grew up here, I don't understand them nearly as well as I should. -
hotaka said on Aug 08, 2008....
Basically, your writing sounds pretty good to me. Believe me, I know native English speakers who have a pathetic command of the only language they know. I still flinch at, "I seen it," and "I didn't do nothing."
Strangely, my accent has been strongly modified by a number of influences. Rich Little was once asked what his real voice sounded like and he made a funny face and replied, "I don't know." I hardly know what my real accent, which should be Western Canadian, sounds like. When I speak I sometimes tend to blend a bit of British English because of my love for the sound. When angry I turn Scottish for some reason. After speaking with Australians or Southerners from the U.S. of A I tend to pick up their accents as well. When I went back to Canada after having been away for many years I felt so much a foreigner that I unintentionally adopted a strong British accent. Even when I tried to conciously modify it people still asked me where I was from. They were surprised to learn I grow up locally.
At last one person said to me, "It's not so much that you have an accent but rather that you ennuciate your words so clearly and use little slang." I guess that comes from being an English teacher in Japan for so many years, eh?
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botoni said on Aug 08, 2008....
Beyond.....I have a cousin from Louisiana and she dun do draaaaaaaaaawl. When we're together it's a little dicey trying to figure out which of has the real accent. God help me when I'm in a room with a Texan and Scot. -
GrapeKoolaid said on Aug 08, 2008....
Would it surprise you to know that I talk like I type and type like I talk? :)
I do love accents... Something really sexy about them... Whereas I don't have one. :(
Well... Maybe a slight Midwestern accent(where I sometimes elongate my "O"s).
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dailyachesandpains said on Aug 08, 2008....
This post is just what I needed to take my mind off of "life" right now :-) thank you! I shouldn't even be concentrating on posts right now, but I'm gunna (going to in any other region).Well, I'm a Bostonian and I'm sure there's a mile long list of all the things we say incorrectly. In fact, I know there is!There's a list here explaining "Boston Words" and definitions.There's a list here explaining the "Boston Accent". This is a great guide if you ever visit. I highly suggest you print and pack both guides...you WILL need it.When I moved back from my time out west and met Mr. D, he said I had a "twang" which, translated, means I pronounced my "R's" appropriately! LOL!Believe it or not, I went to college and focused on "Technical Writing." If you check my replies to posts from about 2 years ago on SC, you can see the major difference in my writing. Now...I don't even care because I just want to get it out and not focus on technique so much. But then, it was still burned in my mind to format correctly according to technical writing "rules". Yeah, English was my number 1 and look where I am now...BAH! Hardly even CLOSE to where I was 2 years ago. Technical Writing totally confused me with basic writing.The way I speak is no comparison to my writing. I'm well spoken with an accent and mentally know when to place the "., ? !" in a verbal conversation. Here, I am simple with the choices for words I choose to use."Wicked" good post! ;-)Thanks so much for proving me with a smile!Daily -
beyondtheveil said on Aug 08, 2008....
unique- Grandma saying 'slicker than snot'. I love it.
eilan- Well, I'm glad its not just me. I did catch the jist of her conversation.
hot- I think you would see me visibly flinch also at 'I seen it'. That is so common in the south and I'm sure parts of the lower midwest. British English has always held a fascination for me. They do use many words I don't understand, though. I wonder if being around Japanese so long could affect your English in some way.
bot- You, a Texan, and a Scot. I'd really like to hear that.
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beyondtheveil said on Aug 08, 2008....
grape- My step-father was from Chicago. I only visited there once when about 11 years old. He didn't have an accent I could tell, so I don't know how they sound. I'll bet they knew I'd been there, though.
daily- Glad to help you take the mind off life. About fifteen years ago, I took a trip with my wife to Rhode Island where she's from (another darned preposition). After scanning your Boston links, I noticed so much that was similar to what I heard there. Especially noticeable is the almost complete loss of the letter 'r'. I'm going to show her those links tomorrow. It will be just like home to her - and we'll both get a lot of laughs, I'm sure. Thanks for those.
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MissMimi said on Aug 09, 2008....
I've lived in Ohio my whole life, the first 19 years in northern Ohio, and since then here in southwest Ohio. My accent is kind of a non-accent -- the type of speech you might hear a newcaster speak. And good grammar was pounded into us as kids. My grandmother was a teacher and a librarian. My mother would actually say, "I beg your pardon?" if we used "at" at the end of a sentence. And using the word "ain't" was a mortal sin.
I also think a southern drawl on a man is close to irresistible, the lazier and slower the better. <sigh>
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beyondtheveil said on Aug 09, 2008....
mimi- As you can easily tell, good grammar wasn't pounded into me. It can't if your family sounds almost like hillbillies. I swear to you, if I couldn't end my sentences with prepositions, I'd lose 25 per cent of my speech.
But if so many of you like that southern drawl, I'll do not a blessed thing about it. (strangely enough, I have hardly ever used "ain't")
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MissMimi said on Aug 09, 2008....
I always use prepositions at the end of a sentence, when I'm speaking. Just not "at". LOL Reading posts by bloggers like Ed, and Zayda and LJ, when he was still here, inspired me to clean up my act with written English.
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ninjapirate said on Aug 09, 2008....
I've spent most my life in Nevada or California, and it doesn't seem to me that I have any sort of accent. It makes me feel a bit dull really, but I do like to hear accents from other parts of the country and it's always fun trying to figure out expressions. I think my favorite accent is english or irish though. Although my friend in London said he thought southern accents made people sound "a bit thick" were his words. As for my writing, I try to be careful of spelling, but I suck at grammar. I also would like to expand my vocabular but that's a lot of work, and english is one of my least favorite subject. I never would have guessed you were from Texas Beyond, but I'll try to keep that accent in mind when I read your posts :) -
FutureGoddess said on Aug 09, 2008....
I have no accent - I spent too many years training in theater to have a true accent (although once in a while I will hear myself say something uniquely New Joisey and correct myself immediately).
There are so many accents in the US and there are some of them which drive me CRAZY! They can make the most intelligent person sound unitelligible. And there are some phrases which make me insane! "Not for nothin'" God, how I hate that saying!
When I first moved from NY State to NJ my friend went "Down the shore", not "to the beach" or "Down TO the shore" but "down the shore" - it was something that made no sense to me!
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secretlife said on Aug 09, 2008....
lol FG, i just came back from "down the shore"......and that's just how i've always said it........we're going down the shore! -
gingersoul said on Aug 09, 2008....
BeyBey.......well...you know i DO have an accent....an Italian one.....
plus i live in Texas, like you....what a devilish combination...LOL...
I like some Texan drawl....my ex husband had some good one
As long as they don't keep those vowels lasting for that loooooong its ok....
I bet you have a very nice drawl, Bey....:-).
I am used to be asked to repeat this or that words ...most of the time people like how i pronounce them, the different twist i put in usual words...sometimes they might not grab what i say.....
At the beginning, when i moved here in the States, i was painfully aware of my difference...
Then i started to realize that no matter how hard i was trying no one would have ever mistaken me for a native English speaker...so....i didnt care anymore...:-)
Actually.....this accent of mine have served me good many times....specially with men.....lol.....or simply to start a conversation.......its an excellent ice breaker,
I just would love writing in a better English......that is a never ending quest...
. -
quietone said on Aug 09, 2008....
well beyond, all who listened to the video tape of the accents/speech/grammer that polar, skald and I did when we were in Icelnad...... well that kind of tells it all. One can actually HEAR us. So, yes, as the saying goes... I sound like the gilr next door after hearing polars SA accent and Skalds Icelandic. As for here in the states, I have the N.E. twang.. I have also long forgotten grammer and spelling and I do talk like I am from Vermont. I do like southern accents and foreign ones as well. -
quietone said on Aug 09, 2008....
P.S. here is the post we made... so its the real deal! LOL -
4lorac said on Aug 09, 2008....
youbetcha.............yupper and yasure -
queenparanoia said on Aug 09, 2008....
english is not my first language so i'm not really good with my grammar... i'm sure you could see it on my posts. and i'm not really familiar with american accents... but whatever it is does it matter? ;-)
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quietone said on Aug 09, 2008....
queenie ~ I think you do very well with english language. :) -
beyondtheveil said on Aug 09, 2008....
mimi- I haven't thought about cleaning up my English (if possible). I decided long ago I'd write more like I speak. Its the real me, after all.
ninja- British and Irish accents I've always liked. I also like that expression 'a bit think'. Keep me in mind as a pretty slow talker with something of a drawl.
fg- I've heard theater training can take care of accents to a large degree. I've seen actors discuss how they have hired tutors to help with accents also. Some people can drive me crazy, like a guy from North Carolina I once met I could barely understand.
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beyondtheveil said on Aug 09, 2008....
gingergirl- I've always enjoyed reading your Italian accent. You wouldn't be you without it. I read your comments and smile, not laugh at you, but sincerely smile. I've noticed a difference in comments and writing. The writing is just darn good, the comments I feel you are speaking as you would in the world. And I'm quite sure the guys like it. Who wouldn't?
quiet- I thought that post with the three of you talking was so original and neat. I don't know what a Vermonter sounds like really. I drove through the state in one day. My grammar is long forgotten too.
4lorac- Now you got it.
queenie- Don't be concerned about grammar on your posts. You are learning another language. We have problems with it too.
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dailyachesandpains said on Aug 09, 2008....
beyond...funny thing, my Spouse is too from RI and I'm going there TOMORROW!!! GAWD, that ride will be a wicked pissah. ;-) -
botoni said on Aug 09, 2008....
LOL @ Daily! -
dailyachesandpains said on Aug 09, 2008....
Bottie: Hahahaaaa! Thank goodness theah (=there)will be no lobstah being served! -
beyondtheveil said on Aug 10, 2008....
daily- I must say, you'll both fit right in won't you? That trip to RI covered 4th of July and they have fireworks displays along the bay. My wife's brother 'B' gave us an address to meet him to party and eat bbq at one of his friend's house. It was difficult to find, but we arrived and when the owner came over to us, we introduced ourselves and said my wife's brother invited us, he'd be there later.
Well, we partied, ate, watched fireworks, and drank with these fun people all night. The next day, her brother asked why we didn't show up. We said we did show up, he didn't. He said 'oh, I showed up, you went to the wrong house.'
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dailyachesandpains said on Aug 10, 2008....
Bey: The funny thing is, I have a VERY different accent than the RI accent! When you get to RI, it's like a NY/NJ/MA combined accent. When my Husband says "WATER" it sounds like "Werter"HAHAAAAAAAAAA...that's a total laugh riot about the cook-out! Makes me wonder if you were at the same one we were at!We're headed to Newport!As I said...Wicked pissah!LOL!Daily -
botoni said on Aug 10, 2008....
Beyond......LOL! -
silverwhisper said on Aug 13, 2008....
mimi, whatever in the world are you talking about, missy?!
beyond: great blog entry! me, i tend to use a slightly formal tone when i'm writing. when i'm commenting though i try to sound as i might if speaking. i don't always get there, but the fact of the matter is that i don't care how i sound, b/c so long as i make whatever points i might have, who really cares?
yes, i do have good grammar: it's part of having been an english major, if you ask me. but the important thing here--esp given that SC is all about the written word--is that we need to give a bit of thought to whether what we have to say is intelligible to folks.
i'm sure people are tired of hearing it, but one of the most important things that wordsworth ever said was contained within his preface to 1780's lyrical ballads, a collection filled with the poetry of both wordsworth himself as well as his good friend, samuel taylor coleridge. within the preface, wordsworth quoth:
"poetry is the spontaneous overflow of emotion, recollected in tranquility".
and the truth is that being comprehensible doesn't have all that much to do with good grammar, at least AFAICT!
ed -
beyondtheveil said on Aug 14, 2008....
Ed- If you put grammar aside, the biggest problem about writing when I came here is one thing you mentioned and that's being intelligible. It had been so long since I had written for other people to understand. I basically put my thoughts down in ways others many times could not follow.
I've mentioned to you before about writing being 'work'. What I've concentrated on most is being comprehensible. I re-read posts and many times re-word parts, so perhaps I'm gaining on that aspect, the most important one. At least I hope.
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silverwhisper said on Aug 19, 2008....
i've always found your writing to be highly-comprehensible--vastly moreso in fact than most people, for whatever that's worth, my friend.
ed -
Scaramouche said on Sep 07, 2008....
Yeah - I was going to say something similar. I find little to complain about. Maybe a stray comma here or there, but overall you're well ahead of the pack....and, honestly, I defend the use of y'all. English desperately needs a distinct plural form of 'you.' 'You' just leads to confusion. Like just then. Was that plural, or singular? Of all the attempts I've heard of (like 'yous' for example - ick) 'y'all' is the least offensive to my ear, and makes the most sense to me.Oh, and my dad long ago extended 'slicker than snot' into 'slicker than snot on a doorknob.' Or perhaps everyone else truncated it. Anyway, you can imagine what sort of other colorful phrases leaked into my fragile young brain. -
beyondtheveil said on Sep 07, 2008....
Ed- Thanks. I believe continual reading, especially in non-fiction has helped.
scara- Speaking of commas, when I reread posts before submitting, I'm continually removing commas. But the problem is constantly there and here are two examples. In my comment to Ed, the comma probably shouldn't be there. In this comment, it probably shouldn't be between 'submitting' and 'I'm'. There is no rule for me to follow except by sound.
So screw it. Or is it.... so, screw it?
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Scaramouche said on Sep 08, 2008....
I used to be comma-crazy as well until an English teacher spent a year beating it out of me. Nowadays the only actual hard-and-fast rule I use is to almost always place one before the word 'and.' Unless it's connecting two nouns, I guess. Like "Jack and Jill." I think you're correct about not having one at 'submitting' and 'I'm'. In that case, you could listen to it in your head once without the comma and see if it sounds OK, which it does. I think doing it 'by sound' is pretty valid, especially if you're a voracious reader. You'll just internalize it eventually.In the case of 'so screw it' I'd leave the comma out, unless perhaps you were writing dialog and you wanted the reader to hear a pause there.But what the hell do I know? I was an EE major, after all...
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