• Expendable said on Aug 02, 2008....

  What do you do with an army of men?

• ALIENated said on Aug 02, 2008....

  
  I heard that most Chinese men are going to other countries like Vietnam to find
  brides. Otherwise the problem would eventually take care of itself. There would
  be no more women to have babies. It is a horrible situation. Abortion is horrible,
  but having millions of people and overrunning your territory is not so good either.
  I think they should stick with the one child rule, but stop the abortions. They
  should put birth control in the public water supply or something. And maybe stop
  one month a year or every couple of years until the problem subsides. And you 
  have to have your first baby be it a boy or a girl. The Chinese are showing us
  what happens when you screw around with something unnatural like abortion.
  Who knows (other than God) all the ramifications of allowing gay marriage.
  Sometimes, by the time you see consequences to something like that, it is
  too late to fix the damage.
  
  

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 03, 2008....

  LoL.  ALIEN you are aware that the Chinese aren't JUST aborting baby girls but they are drowning them right?  This isn't the result of liberals and abortion, if anything this is the result of conservatives and their general stance on civil rights and thus the worth of a woman.
   
  In China women are worthless, whe there was no one child law it was fine, they were valuable items to be bought and sold. (Not that I particularly condemn this, particularly not the more we se how the world is)  But thats what they were, they couldn't carry on your family name which means a lot to them.  If you only have one child and that child is female then she has "killed" your family name. 
   
  This is not liberalism gone wrong, it's a horrible mesh of liberal (Big Government setting limits on children) and conservative (women are chattel). 

• Trombonist said on Aug 03, 2008....

  I believe that in some other far east countries they are allowing marriages of two men to one woman -- often two brothers so that the children have almost the same genetic history whichever brother is the father.

• anonymous said on Aug 03, 2008....

  LOL. I can't believe you candyasses think that women are equals. ALL they're good for is keeping my shit clean and squeezing out babies for me. Y'all are pussywhipped. Y'all really are.

• one_wired_kitty said on Aug 03, 2008....

  Seriously?

  I find it just astonishing that in some parts of the world women are still worthless.

• whiterose said on Aug 03, 2008....

  This may shock some people.  The idea of being limited to one child and having to have a permit to have a child originated by a United States citizen, Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood.  She wanted the United States to adopt the one child rule.  Here are some quotes by her:

  Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood, proposed the American Baby Code that states, "No woman shall have the legal right to bear a child… without a permit for parenthood".

  Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood, proposed the Population Congress with the aim, "...to give certain dysgenic groups in our population their choice of segregation or sterilization."

  The undeniably feeble-minded should, indeed, not only be discouraged but prevented from propagating their kind." Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

  "The unbalance between the birth rate of the 'unfit' and the 'fit,' [is] the greatest present menace to civilization… the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective."  Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

  "The campaign for birth control is not merely of eugenic value, but is practically identical with the final aims of eugenics."  Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

  "Our failure to segregate morons who are increasing and multiplying… a dead weight of human waste… an ever-increasing, unceasingly spawning class of human beings who never should have been born at all."  Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

  "We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population…" Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

  These quotes come from LifeDynamics.com web site. 
   
  Mike Wallace interviewed Margaret Sanger in 1957, this interview is now on-line.

  http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/multimedia/video/2008/wallace/sanger_margaret.html
  

  
  

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 03, 2008....

  She was a Nazi, doesn't mean that some of her ideas weren't right.  i.e. just becaus eshe was a nazi doesn't mean that abortion is wrong.

• whiterose said on Aug 04, 2008....

  Sean, Sanger championed the birth control movement to encourage the poor people, criminals, African Americans and others the Eugenics Movement considered unfit to reproduce, to stop having children.  Planned Parenthood was formed to ensure the production of “good offspring”. Hitler promoted the Aryan for the same reasons. Have you ever noticed that Planned Parenthood targets poor people? Take a look at who has been traditionally encouraged to have abortions and to use birth control. I know of couples who have been encouraged to have an abortion because of some defect detected in their pre-born child. Women are not valued in China, so girls are aborted. I know it is difficult to believe that what Hitler did is happening in the U.S. and in China, but it is happening. I’m sure there are people working in the abortion business, who have good intentions; but there is a driving ideology behind this multi-million dollar business, that the average worker may not know about. To my knowledge Planned Parenthood has never distance itself from its eugenics’ roots. It’s important to look at the motives behind this organization in order to be well informed on the purpose of birth control and abortion.

   

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 04, 2008....

   I'm not denying that she may as well have been a Nazi I'm saying that it doesn't change the good the progam has accomplished.  Even the most fucked up people with the most fucked up motives can occasionally accomplish something of worth.  It's not fair to call it a racial thing when the vast majority of the overwhelmingly poor are minorities, and the wealthy have a negative birthrate as a whole so again not fair.
   
  Depending on the defect I'm not certain that I disagree with eugenics anyway. 

• whiterose said on Aug 04, 2008....

  Every person, regardless of race or disability (handicap) is a valuable human being and has something important to offer.  Judging someone not fit to be born because of a possible defect is dangerous ground.  Chinese people have judged being female as a handicap, so girls are aborted.  Homosexuality is considered a defect by some and could be a reason to abort. In the past the U.S. had forced sterilization laws and after a person was sterilized, at times misdiagnoses were discovered.  Sanger’s ideology is still the driving force behind Planned Parenthood.  Today many women are sharing their stories on how a boyfriend or a parent forced them to have an abortion.   Many women are Silent No More about how abortion has caused much harm to them and to their families.  Men are also speaking out about how abortion has had a negative effect on them.  Many women and men desire help to deal with the aftermath of abortion.   Abortion hurts women and men and kills children.  Abortion in the United States is a Holocaust.  Sanger’s ideology is bad for women, children and men.  

   

  ----  Anyone who is reading this blog and needs help dealing with the aftermath of abortion this link http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/resources/index.html#national has a list of support and recovery groups that are non-judgemental. 

• silverwhisper said on Aug 05, 2008....

  personally, i think that the one child rule is stupid in misogynistic china: as sean rightly noted, it's leading parents to kill their otherwise healthy little girls. this is a stupid policy with horrible ramifications and honestly, i'm thinking that it's exceedingly unsafe for women to visit china.
  
  whiterose, i think you're slightly overstating the contemptibility of sanger's views and using those views as an ad hominem way to discredit planned parenthood.
  
  ed

• whiterose said on Aug 05, 2008....

  Ed,

  I do not believe that I’m overstating the issue.  I read the information from the link you provided, which does provide a different out look.  However, I do not consider Wikipedia a creditable source.  At the moment Margaret Sanger’s works are out of publication, so the majority of people have to rely on secondary sources.  Currently, there is a project under way to have everything Sanger has ever written “scanned” and put on-line.  Once all of her writings (unedited) are on-line everybody will be able to have a more accurate picture of Margaret Sanger and her influences on Hitler, China, and present day society. 
  

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 05, 2008....

  Once again just because she encouraged Hitler, China and what not, even if she's the inventer of eugenics it doesn't mean that every idea that she came up with is bad. 

• whiterose said on Aug 05, 2008....

  Sean, I'm sure she had some good ideas in her life time.  A broken clock is right twice a day.  Birth control and abortion are not among them.  Her ideology and promotion of birth control and abortion are bad.  Her influence has caused much harm in Germany, China, and here in the United States and continues to do so.  What happened in Germany is happening in China and in the United States.

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 05, 2008....

  What happened in Germany is not happening in China (and what's more is that there is a strong correlations  between lower crime rates and abortion) and what's going on in China is an entirely differen issue all together.

• whiterose said on Aug 05, 2008....

  Innocent people were killed in Germany, and innocent people are being killed in China.  Yes, a pre-born child is a human person.  You claim that abortion has a correlation with lower crime rates, but provide no link or other factual information to support this statement.

• silverwhisper said on Aug 06, 2008....

  whiterose: sadly, you too are as devoid of substantiating links as sean is, no?
  
  ed

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 06, 2008....

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect
   
  Until a child can survive, outside the mother without a fuck ton of machines hooked up to it, it's not alive.  Innocent PEOPLE were killed in Germany.  Sadly some innocent people are killed in China, in America unwanted people are being prevented.

• stopmediabias said on Aug 07, 2008....

  Sean-Are you really fucking serious here?  Your rationalization of abortion is this perceived reduction in crime rates?  I'm surprised at you.

  First of all match any stat on crime rates with: suicide rates of woman who have had abortions, psych visits of woman who have had abortions, side effects of woman who have had abortions, deaths from side effects of woman who have had abortions, horror stories of woman who have had abortions (story of left over body parts), planned parenthood telling our children that abortion is no more risky than getting your tonsils out, woman who have been preyed on by despicable doctors, etc etc etc etc....these stats outweigh any crime stats.

  But wait, lets look at this.  We should abort babies because their is a higher chance they will become criminals later in life?  This is so far beyond any logic or reason that it blows me away.  Aren't a higher % of abortions performed on African Americans?  Imagine if I said: "well their just going to grow up to be criminals anyway so we might as well abort them now."  It is racist and disgusting to legitimize a stain like abortion because their is a perceived link to it lowering crime rates.    

  One of the greatest horrors of America is we are a prosperous country with people who can't have kids and want them while at the same time we have aborted 50 million babies. 

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 07, 2008....

  1.  Not even close since those aren't hard numbers.
   
  2.  The problem is that we have houses filled with kids who go unadopted so people who can't have kids don't want kids bad enough.
   
  3.  The bottom line is that NOBODY EVER has the right to tell a person what to do with their own body.  Not ever.  And until it's born a baby is part of a woman's body, period.
   
  All the rest of the reasons really don't matter, but their are nice for swaying people who think that it's okay to tell people what to do with their bodies. 

• stopmediabias said on Aug 08, 2008....

  Ok, so technically it is all right to terminate a pregnancy at 5 months or 7 months.  If a baby is part of a woman's body until it is born.  Am I wrong?

  Also what about the Lacy Peterson law that stated if a pregnant woman is murdered it gets counted as a double murder.

  I detest debating abortion because I know everyone except the hardcore murdering nutcases (Nancy Pelosi) are ashamed of it.  I just wish people would be honest and admit it is a disgustingly repugnant terrible thing that weakens society and has weakened our society, but at the same time it is here and we should work to phase it away from our sisters.  Our woman deserve better.  Every problem that abortion proposes to solve can be solved in other ways. 

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 08, 2008....

  There is zero evidence that it has weakened our society or any society and considerable correlations to stregnthening our societies. 
   
  And it's double murder for two reasons.  One is that people make knee jerk emotional reactions that have no relationship to reality and two because it took away the CHOICE of the mother. 
   
  And while technically terminating a pregnancy at 5-7 months SHOULD be legal in my opinion, the reality is that it partial birth abortion is a fucking myth unworthy of inteligent debate.  Just like rape babies are a myth of the left.  Combined those two incidents make up less than 1% of all aborted children.  Lets talk about the other 99.
   
  Babies are aborted for really just two reasons (which is really just one reason split in two) they can't be afforded by the parents for whatever reason (A good example of is a friend of mine is Catholic, his parents had 7 kids under one roof, one with downs and they were about to have a second with downs syndrome.  They simply couldn't afford it on their income.)  Or maybe it's a couple of teen agers who got stupid.  And some simply don't want a child (and guys aside I don't believe there are women who don't want children, there are just women who can't afford them) until and unless we get to a point where children aren't growing up in group homes the right doesn't have a leg to stand on. 
   
  Its virtually impossible to get adopted past the age of about two.  I'm sorry all these, I want a child to raise people obviously don't want one bad enough if they are too good to take a five year old.  I'm sorry, I dont' care.  We have enough problems without compounding it by increasing the number of unwanted children who grow up to be criminals. 
   
  Now we should do everything we can to make abortions as rare as possible, but we don't live in that world yet.  And again the Right refuses to take believe in common sense to work towards it.  They refuse to accept any amount of evidence.  Guess it's that faith thing at work, no matter how foolish a plan is proven to be it has to be stuck with until the ship sinks.

• stopmediabias said on Aug 08, 2008....

  You just contradicted your self.
   
  "Now we should do everything we can to make abortions as rare as possible, but we don't live in that world yet."
   
  Why should we make them as rare as possible if you believe there is nothing wrong with them.
   
  You haven't researched this Sean, both sides.  You are missing the really big picture.  Abortion weakens our society because it preys on our woman at a time when they are most vulnerable. 

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 08, 2008....

  It doesn't prey on them, it gives them a choice.  If anything it makes them stronger.
   
  I don't find anything morally wrong with it but I would like to have it happen as rarely as possible.  In an ideal world women would only get pregnant when they wanted to, they would be in complete control of when they got pregnant, no woman would be incapable of having a child and every couple who chose to have a baby would mentally, physically, and financially capable of caring for their children.  There would be no unwanted babies anywhere.  Not ever.  But that's not the world we live in yet.  Until then we have a tool that allows us to minimize the amount of unwanted babies in the world.

• stopmediabias said on Aug 09, 2008....

  The fact that you state it should happen as rarely as possible shows there is something in you, which I believe is in everyone, something somewhere in our brains and our humanity that says; "there is just something not right about that."

   

• whiterose said on Aug 09, 2008....

  Ed, I’m making much effort to back up what I am saying with links.  The only thing I can see that might need clarification is the connection between the Holocaust and China’s One Child Policy and what is happening in the U.S. 

  I consider the Holocaust to be a well know historical fact that did not need sources to support it.  I also consider China’s One Child Policy to be a well known historical fact that did not need sources to support it.  Sean did not dispute Sanger’s connection with the Nazi’s, so I saw no reason to produce additional sources.  My first comment on this blog included a quote my Sanger regarding wanting the U.S. to have a permit from the government and to be restricted to one child.  In previous links the historical fact of U.S sterilization laws were talked about.  Sanger’s ideology had an influence on the Holocaust and on China’s One Child policy and here in the United States. 

   

  In the Holocaust innocent people were killed by the government.  In China, parents are being forced to kill their children in the womb by the government.  When a government only allows one child and a mother is pregnant with a second child, she has no choice but to abort. In the United States the government doesn’t force people to have an abortion, but it does provide funds to Planned Parenthood, which means our government is involved in killing innocent human life within our country.  Please, let me know if more examples or clarification is needed for people to understand the connection.

  Since I what everything I am saying to have merit please let me know if there is anything else that needs clarification or sources to support what I’m saying. 

• whiterose said on Aug 09, 2008....

  Sean,

  1. The Donohue-Levitt theory of abortion leading to low crime rates has been shown to have flaws in the formulas that lead to that theory.  When the flaws in the formulas are corrected to include left-out data and applied the outcome is that abortion leads to higher crime rates.
  2. Partial-Birth Abortion is a procedure abortionist call D&X, it’s not a myth.  This abortion technique involves delivering the all of the baby except for the head during 4 to 9 months of pregnancy.  The majority of the child is outside of the womb, so the majority of the baby has been delivered or partially born.   
  3. You stated “Until a child can survive, outside the mother without a … ton of machines hooked up to it, it's not alive.”  Does this mean that a child born prematurely and needs to be have special care to survive is not alive?  Does this mean a baby born with a medical issue and needs help to correct the matter is not alive? 
  4. A child lives inside the womb but is not part of the womb.  A child lives inside his/her mother, but is not part of the mother.  A child has separate organs from the mother. By the time a women misses her first period a child’s organs have begun to develop.   Baby boys and girls live inside of their mother as individuals.  A child is not part of a mother’s body; a baby is a separate human being. True, they depend on their parents for food.  Children for years depend on someone to provide them with food.  Children are human beings who are individuals in all stages of development.  Abortion is about what a mother consents to happen to her child’s body. (By consent I mean mothers who are not forced into having an abortion.)
  5. Not every women, who has an abortion wants an abortion! I have talked to many women who have had abortions, who did not want to have one, but they were unaware of Pregnancy Support Centers, and other strictly donation based organizations that could help them.  I have also read stories of women who were forced to have an abortion by the father of the child, or by their parents.  These children are wanted, but aborted.  Here are some links of teenage girls and women sharing their experience about abortion.
     
     
  6. It would be great to live in a world where circumstances are perfect for parents to have children.  I have not found anyone who has no problems ever in their lives.  If everyone waited for perfect conditions to have children, there would be no children.
  7. I know of people who have a difficult time to adopt a child, so they have to go to another country to find one to adopt.  Part of the reason for this is the adoption laws that exist in the United States.  Children, who are aborted, are wanted.
  8. To understand how abortion weakens our society read:  The Cost of Abortion: An Analysis of the Social, Economic and Demographic Effects of Abortion in the United States by Lawrence F. Roberge

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 09, 2008....

  @SMB:  There are lots of things that aren't right that are better than the alternative.  People shouldn't be forced to live in pain but they are.  People shouldn't be given welfare or social security.  If nobody loves you enough to support you and you can't support yourself it's time for you to die.  But we don't live in that world either and that' sbecause the the alternatives that go with those facts are simply unsustainable in our currnt world.
   
  1.  That's why it's called a correlation not a causation.
  2.  How often does DX happen whtie rose.  What percent of abortions are DX?  Last I checked it was less than 1%, ergo it's a myth.  Just like rape babies.
  3.  No a baby born prematurely isn't a live, we can try to bring it the last mile but it's always a crap shoot and while people feel bad about it nobody goes to jail because there was no wrong doing (even if the mother wasn't taking proper care of herself.  So no it's alive not really.
  4.  See above.
  5. So there are idiots.  Whopity woop.  Next your gonna tell me that girls who left babies in dumpsters were forced to at gun point.
  6. There is a difference between perfect and ideal.  Unless you are really going to disput that a single mother should have four kids.
  7.  Once again were they after babies or children?  I help people (sorta) adopt children and the only time I've heard of any real complications is when they try to take children from other states.
  8.  Again until no child ever grows up in a home, you can fuck right off.  Well actually not, lets just enslave women I'd actually like that so go on take the first step for me.
   
   

• husbandhater said on Aug 09, 2008....

  Sean I agree with the welfare bit to an extent. I don't think people should be able to just walk into this country and collect as they put nothing in the pot for it. And Social security should be given to those that put into the pot. Not to those who didn't. Could I make an exception for the disabled? Only the sever ones not the adhd kid whose mother is just looking for another payday.(Had a neighbor like that once. She had welfare for her and the 2 oldest kids,and the other 2 on ssi claiming they were mentally challenged at 2 and 4yrs of age. 4yrold girl(I can say maybe but at 2 what did the 2yrold know?).

  As far as the premature baby. My now 12yrold son was born in the 7th month of my pregnancy due to undiagnosed Full placenta previa. I was suppose to be on bed rest{maybe even hospitalized},not having sex,no heavy lifting,etc.,.(Had I known I had it). When he was born he had trouble breathing. Please don't tell me he wasn't alive. At 24 weeks you can possibly say that but after a certain point you can't. And we have made strides even at 24 weeks. I have a girlfriend who is living proof of that with a now 3yrold normal health daughter.

  And as far as abortions go some are not looking to get pregnant. And I've gotten preggers on birth control as some others have so what would you have women do? This is just one of many reasons that I'm very careful with hubby and that we don't really have sex like that for fear that I might end up pregnant again when I'm not ready for it just yet.

  My my my Sean you sorta help kids get adopted,military backgroud,..... You are quite the guy Sean Renaurd.

   

• SeanRenaud said on Aug 09, 2008....

  1.  Sorry HH, he wasn't allive, and that's why for how many months or weeks was he hooked up to a cornucopia of machines designed to do just that.  Keep something that isn't alive, not really, from dying?  That's not to say that I'm not happy you managed to save your child or however you want to phrase it but you didn't do.  I would say the same thing about a coma victim, just because you can salvage them, repair them, fix them or save them doesn't actually mean they are "alive" if you can't self sustain your not alive.
   
  2.  I would have the woman on bc, the guy still using a condom ideally, avoid her most fertile period when possible and if you still get pregnant and you can't afford dont' want it, get an abortion.  It's better than an unwanted child.  Which is the point.
   
  3.  I specified sorta on the adoption part for a reason.  In California (and several other states such as New York) you require fingerprints to adopt a child, or take a child into foster care (while I'm still working out what the distinction is they are apparently quite different) so I get plenty of people through my office who need fingerprints for their background check and thus by doing my job I help them out in some way.  I also because of this come into contact with  more people (than the average person) who are adopting kids and talking about it.  Just to clarify.

• silverwhisper said on Aug 19, 2008....

  whiterose: sorry, it's been 1.5 weeks since i've been able to follow-up with the my conversations pages.
  
  my general point however was that you're engaged in what is essentially an ad hominem against planned parenthood by talking about sanger's bizarre and ultimately unacceptable association with the nazis. that association is, i think, sufficiently well-known to constitute a historical fact.
  
  i call it an ad hominem because you're seeking to vilify sanger and therefore, by extension, planned parenthood.
  
  ed

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