• Mamie said on Jul 27, 2008....

  fallyn, start where you last ended. How or in what church were you raised? Use it as a jumping off point. I do agree it is a valid component for you to pursue as you map out this new life and all of its glories! Remember silver posted recently about a site called beliefnet. com or something like that. I went to the site then and it has a lot of good info. That way you can read abunch of different things. Joining a place near by you will be a new social circle too! I agree it is good for kids too. xo, m

• Fallyn said on Jul 27, 2008....

  my life is not the way it was....i'm still close socially with the people i grew up around in church....but my beliefs are so different from that now.
  so the social aspect yes, is wonderful.
  
  the problem with having a social network spirituality thing is that no one else believes like i do. ....my beliefs don't even remotely fit into any religious or other category.
  
  i'm not christian, not pagan, not a bunch of other stuff.
  but i want to feel in touch with my spiritual side....and right now it's very difficult as i'm forging my way on my own.
  

• queenparanoia said on Jul 27, 2008....

  just keep having an open mind fallyn... that's the way to be spiritual.... aim to spiritual not religious.

• Mamie said on Jul 28, 2008....

  yea, keep striving...if you know what you are not about, you will peel back many layers and eventually find what you are about. good luck!

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 28, 2008....

  Hey Fallyn!
  
  I respect anyone who is spiritually seeking fulfillment in their lives. It is our soul - a part of us that many people don't even acknowledge - that gives us a sense of well-being, an intangible part of us that is not satisfied with just education, or food, or basic material needs.
  
  Of my spiritual walk, I found that Jesus Christ makes the most sense. I see that despite the imperfection of the people who follow Him, I see in that a lot of proof as to why the world needs Jesus' crucifixion in the first place: we'll never get it all right.
  
  For that reason, I don't believe in Self-Actualization, Enlightenment, or any thought that puts our "godlikeness" in our own hands. I believe that there are unseen spiritual forces, either for good or bad. Although I cannot guess or tell the true nature of bad spiritual forces, I know that the God of the Bible is a spiritual force I can trust, and is a much more influential spiritual force that gives me more than visiting a spirit medium, conducting a seance, practicing witchcraft, or doing anything else to experience/obtain supernatural power.
  
  In Jesus, I have a practical answer to the problems I'm plagued with. By His life, death, and resurrection, there's a solution to all the times I fall short and get discouraged by life. If I follow Christ, then I have hope and healing no matter how low I sink, and I have power I can reach for that isn't limited by my attitude or feelings.
  
  Best of all, there are some churches that "get it right." People can surround you with love and support, without you having to earn it, pay for it, or beg for it. People can meet your needs and accept you as you are. I believe this benevolence is inspired and fueled by Jesus' example, and I feel that any honest spiritual journey ends with Jesus Christ.
  
  Consider all of the above personal encouragement to consider Jesus as the guide on your spiritual journey. He keeps you anchored when you want to stray to things you might regret, or when you seem to find a higher truth than God. Both have happened to me, but the grass ain't greener on the other side. It is better to be bonded to God than to be a slave to our own mistakes and flaws and hurts.
  
  
  

• Fallyn said on Jul 29, 2008....

  lids, well, you have it right there......i can't trust god.
  you know in the bible it says something along the lines of a promise that he will never give you more than you can handle.
  
  well....it was more than i could handle. i was hurting myself. i was hurting my children, i was suicidal......and i would have all night prayer sessions begging god to help me.....nothing came. nothing whatsoever.
  no peace, no comfort, no getting better, nothing.
  it didn't start to get better until i realized there was no god. there was a book i read that made it all make sense. there isn't anything intrinsically "wrong" with humanity that we all need saved.....there is something desperately "wrong" with our society as it is however and i believe that stems from trying to separate ourselves from the natural order of things......and trying to completely control how the world around us works.....not because we all need saved.
  
  anyway, i'm not trying to start an argument htere......but the fact is....i did believe in god. i was raised a christian. it wasn't that the people at church weren't loving enough or supportive enough or anything like that....in fact...i still have a very loving family like relationship with the people in the church i grew up in......it was god. not them that i have a problem with.
  

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 29, 2008....

  Hey Fallyn...I don't take the stuff you said as a challenge to argue or anything, I think you have good reasons for being in the place you are in now, and I won't claim to understand your life any better than you do.
  
  I've often had to be direct with God and ask Him the tough questions: why didn't you help at this point in my life? How did you let things get this bad? With all your power, couldn't you have stepped in and made this painful memory easier to deal with?
  
  What I've found is that while God is indeed our shepherd, leading us and urging us to a place of peace and healing, our free will - while a good gift - makes us very responsible for our own interactions. In short, if we aren't in line with God, and hard times hit, we're not in a good position to deal with them.
  
  You've been pretty direct with where you're at, fallyn, and I appreciate that honesty. On a base level, it seems that your emotional hurt toward God led you to an intellectual belief that He doesn't exist. I have to say it's common that someone will experience an intense, negative experience in their lives, and in their grief they give up on the idea of God.
  
  But the thing to remember is that just because someone lets go of faith in God, it doesn't mean God has let go of them. Fallyn, I think there is healing in store for you, healing that goes deeper than just ceasing to care about God. I feel that you miss the spiritual memories of your youth. The cold reality is that sometimes God will press us to grow, and we wilt instead, bitter and angry at Him. For that reason, I tell people that being a Christian is a very hard road. But the reward in Heaven, for those who remember it, is worth more than suffering in our lives.
  
  Fallyn, there have been many who have been martyred to establish God's kingdom on earth, to preserve the peace and any positive memories you and others had about the church. They gave a damn so that bringing God to all people could happen without persecution. I really believe that God loves you more than you know. Whatever choice you make, even if it excludes Him, He doesn't love you any less for it.
  

• Fallyn said on Jul 29, 2008....

  i can't honestly say that i believe he doesn't exist at all......but he's either a. not all powerful......or b. not unconditionally loving. ....i wasn't asking to not pay for my mistakes at all.....but the situation was BAD. and i was trying SO hard. it's not even as though i didn't want him in my life....or didn't want him to help me....it wasn't that i couldn't acknowledge i'd made mistakes......
  it was that my mental health was to the point that i was doing harm to my children. and that he couldn't even help me not hurt them by being the way i was.....no matter how hard i prayed there was no help coming.
  
  it's not just my state of affairs that has brought me to the point i came to.....it was the whole world. the only good i've seen done by christians is in dealing with civilizations that have already been marred by "our" culture. and then only recently. (in the past 50 years) ......but bringing christianity to "all" peoples. it has done WAY more harm than good. some good i'll admit....but WAY more harm. ....im my opinion anyway.
  and yes, i miss the feelings i used to get...but i can identify it was the people i was with.....and childhood memories.....god was scary....jesus was kind and loving.
  there is more......but i don't know how to put it in words.
  

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 29, 2008....

  Ok Fallyn, you don't have to share anything else that you don't want to, or even if it's hard to put into words...that's understandable, because it's always complicated when we look to unseen things to take care of our very real and visible problems.
  There was a time that I had mentally convinced myself that I was physically ill, and that was how I dealt with the fear and doubt and low confidence. What I was doing was forcing my parents to care for me every day, taking me to hospitals and offices to run medical tests to find an ailment that was really pain in my heart, not in my body.
  What turned it around was much of what your memories consisted of...exposure to warm, loving people that accepted me. It was then that I wondered what made them tick, and eventually I overcame my fears and walked into mental and spiritual health. I came to find that the reason they accepted me unconditionally was because they were inspired by God. I've been sold on Him ever since.
  But man, is it hard. I know what you refer to when you say that the church has appeared to do more harm than good. What do you think about the idea that flawed, imperfect people cause those hurts, and not a God that has given them the Bible to hold them accountable? Christians can often take a verse and drill it into others, not realizing that another verse condemns the forcefulness that they're using.
  What if, in your position, spiritual forces were afflicting you, causing or manifesting your mental illness, and it wasn't a matter of how hard you prayed? What if such forces required a conscious effort of fellow believers to help you drive that out? Jesus cast out demons and spirits frequently in the Bible; why can't such things happen today? And finally, what if the church home you had was unequipped to do what you needed to be healed? Such things could have led to isolation, continued mental illness, bitterness toward God, and a search for truth apart from God.
  One thing I've learned about God, but is hard to accept, is that He will test us - not to toy with us, but to prepare us for future trials that He knows are coming. He does not want us to wilt under pressure, because the world is very much the devil's domain; Christians do get persecuted, and not just because the church has a tumultuous history. God wants us to hold fast. And I can tell you that if someone sees God as a scary source of power from childhood, it will be harder to relate to Him as loving; when hard times hit, it's MUCH easier to see God as unloving if He already scares you to begin with.
  Heck, my dad is a good man, but he ain't a saint. That is, he is upstanding and strict and honorable, but he was more a disciplinarian to me than an empathetic father. He had his own painful memories and emotionally-stifled upbringing, and so it was hard for him to express much emotion. I don't hold that against him.
  But what I do notice is that since he's my birth father, sometimes I relate to God as a father by who my dad is, and that's not accurate.
  Remember, if God were truly scary and unloving, He would not have sent His Son Jesus to be the kind and loving savior that we really do need. He could destroy us all or let us rot, but He had done neither. What He has done is give us the chance to live a life His way, as the greatest purpose for living. We can accept or deny that, but one reason He's God is that when all others count us out, He's still pushing us to get back into the game and to finish well.

• Fallyn said on Jul 29, 2008....

  i know you believe this way......and i'm not asking you to not state your opinions....i welcome the open and honest dialog.....i just know that i used to be and think the same way you do.....that's what made the change all the more painful.
  it was HARD to give up the beliefs i held. it was HARD to say "well god, you aren't doing what you said you'd do.....i'm about to kill myself and you aren't here. my children are suffering hurts that will last them a lifetime, i'm crazy enough to need to be in a mental hospital.....and no matter how i plead with you....no matter how hard i try to get better it just isn't happening. there is no peace, there is no burden lifted,"
  
   ......you know the poem about the footprints in the sand.......about there only being one set of footprints through the hardest times because god was carrying the person because it was too hard.......i tried SO hard to believe it, that god was there....and carrying me through.........but the fact is...it just wasn't there. .......and i realized finally, that god wasn't coming to my rescue. and i realized that i couldn't hurt my kids, i had to save them.
  i didn't kill myself....i got better.....it was a LONG and very very painful difficult road.
  and I did it.
  i saved myself.
  i got better because of ME......for my kids. ...i couldn't leave them the legacy of a mother who couldn't survive for them.
  
  am i supposed to thank god for for not coming to my rescue? am i supposed to thank god for giving my children permanent emotional and mental scars?
  i don't blame god for these things happening.....but neither do i give him the credit for getting us out of the situation we were in.
  he really totally and honestly had nothing to do with it......i begged him to help......and he either doesn't exist.....wouldn't help......or couldn't help. i don't know which it is....and at this point....it doesn't matter.
  

• silverwhisper said on Jul 29, 2008....

  fallyn, let me ask you a simple question: what do you believe happens when we die?
  
  ed

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 30, 2008....

  Hey, whatup silver! :)

• Fallyn said on Jul 30, 2008....

  ed. *shrug* i don't honestly know.
  but belief? some form of reincarnation i suppose.  I've given it a lot of thought.......and that's the closest i can come up with that actually makes any sense to me. but truthfully....i have no idea.
  
  i grew up believing that when we die it was like going to sleep....and we stay that way until jesus comes again to wake us up and take us to heaven.......either that or if we hadn't accepted him as savior we'd stay in the ground.........and the people still alive when he came back would be destroyed at some point.......i used to know it by heart......i can't remember the exact chronological order of everything happening anymore. ...it's all in revelation......according to the bible you don't go straight to heaven hell or otherwise when you die.......you're just dead...in the ground.....or ashes...whatever they did with your body.
  

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 30, 2008....

  That's a fairly good overview of it, Fallyn...I think the Bible is purposely vague about the nature of death because  the main focus is to live a life for Jesus Christ, and the way death and Heaven plays out takes care of itself...if it were explained in detail, some people might want to take advantage of that knowledge by living how they want to until they felt they were running out of time, and THEN becoming pious...something like that.

• Fallyn said on Jul 30, 2008....

  actually i have to disagree with you....it is very specific. i just can't remember it. i went through the class on it about ten times as a kid and teen and young adult.
  i know of more than a few death bed conversions....but the thing is....you never know when you're going to die.....even just sitting here.....something could possibly...though unlikely....happen to me.
  
  
  
  

• silverwhisper said on Aug 01, 2008....

  lidstrom: hi! :D
  
  fallyn: revelations is a very, very tricky book, no doubt. i think that what you describe still sounds pretty consistent with orthodox christian theology, though.
  
  ed

• whiterose said on Aug 02, 2008....

  Fallyn, It sounds like you have gone through a real difficult time.  When you say God didn't come to your rescue were you looking for him to do something pacific?  Sometimes God responds to us in a different way then we expect.  Have you thought about what prompted you to think about how a suicide would affect your children?  Maybe God was helping you find a reason to live by using a whisper.

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