• fearing said on Jul 19, 2008....

  Hi Lucy!  It would be nice if everyone with a little extra would share with those less fortunate.  I should do it more myself.  

  That said, I'm not Catholic.  I am a believer in God.  I remind myself that these representatives are all human just like me.  They are falible and yes, sometimes they are fake.  I'm not making excuses for them but trying to say that is the reason I go to God Himself and not another human.  Humans are capable of disappointing me but God will not. 

  I like this post.  Thought provoking. 

  Nice to see you around with your spark too!  :-)

• Lucytorial said on Jul 19, 2008....

  Thanks fearing... yes I agree men, err we are all human and this is also a reason I do not sit in front of a pastor myself, my relationship with god is closer than any man can make me feel. It just seems to be so damned wrong...

• fearing said on Jul 19, 2008....

  lol!  Men are especially human aren't they?  ;-) 

  I'm glad you have a close relationship with God.  That's what is important.  I must admit, I really like my pastor.  I believe him to be a good and sincere man who believes what he preaches.  But he'll be the first to tell you - he's human too - don't look to him but rather - look to Him. 

• Lucytorial said on Jul 19, 2008....

  Doesn't the inequality strike you as being converse to the faith they preach though?? I have never had anyone from an organised religion ever provide me with an answer as to why they amass such welath but rarely share it where it is most required and needed.... human suffereing is a part of what god preaches himself, you do not let another man suffer when you have the bread to feed him, and water to quench his thirst..

• fearing said on Jul 19, 2008....

  From your point, yes, it does strike me that way too.  Churches, religions, preachers, people.... whoever - whose only purpose is to get rich, well they're missing the point.  Being wealthy isn't a sin.  Knowing you're supposed to help someone else with it and not doing that is a sin.

  I don't know a lot about the Catholic religion.  We are still talking about them specifically but not completely right?  ;-)  I guess I'm a little naive in my view of things (but not about God or my relationship with Him).  I grew up in a home where my daddy was a preacher in the last half of his life.  He was a man who did not have a hypocritical bone in his body.  He believed and acted in what he believed.  I knew he knew God personally.  His mission in life was wanting others to know God.  Most (but not all) of the preachers I've known, including my pastor now, have been the same caliber of men.  I've had good examples in my life.  At the same time, I've known a lot of religious people who've missed the boat entirely. 

  This is a good discussion! 

• Lucytorial said on Jul 19, 2008....

  It is indeed, originally I was baptist, when we were kids my parents lost pretty much everything and years of giving to the church when they neded it most the church left them for dead.... so my views are somewhat tainted by that experience however!!!!!!! I have made many wonderful peers from bhudists to christian preists who have shown me otherwise.... yet with all of that.... I still feel it starts with the individual. I cannot condone a set religion that does not abide by the same basic principals that god taught, generousity of spirit, and body and mind... anything less is merely to me a sign of ignorance and extreme apathy for the human race/condition.  Does that make sense?

• travelr712 said on Jul 20, 2008....

  imo, there is no religion that has 'the truth'. it is all just human attribution to some unforseen intelligence. something good happens, and humans say 'god blessed me'. something bad happens and they say 'it was god's will'. but no god has EVER fessed up to doing anything to or for humans. even those books that people swear by, are written by men who are attributing events and opinions to that unforseen force. now, if people want to believe in a 'higher power', i say, more power to them. but the problem i have with that whole paradeigm is pointed out by you here. it allows certain humans to, by the so called 'vested power of this being', amass great wealth and power that they use to control those around them, instead of help those around them.

• crybabylu said on Jul 20, 2008....

  'religion' is a very personal thing, and i try to stay away from criticising other people's religion, but this thing you are speaking about is downright disgusting and something more proactive should have been done about it a long time ago.  They need to have a major housecleaning!

• kelly said on Jul 20, 2008....

  "Okay my rant over, we all need something to believe in but in all seriousness are we praying to false gods?"
  
  
  Well, they are all false, actually.  Why don't people pray to Zeus anymore?  What about Apollo?  Why not literally worship the sun?  Sooner or later every supernatural explanation for the universe falls to reason and logic.  It's amazing that people can't see that about their own gods.
  
  
  Why is it that religion gets a free ride from logical inspection?  It's time to start questioning religion and supernatural claims as rigorously as we question anything else.  As the phrase goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

• Lucytorial said on Jul 20, 2008....

  Kelly ~ Thanks for your comments and I agree completely, it ties in well with Trav's comments as well that no single man or women is imbued with the power to control others... it goes deeper than that I know I'm generalising.

  Dee ~ yes its very personal and the abuse of minors was hapening right under their noses, and still nothing is being done about it, the pastors and cardinals!!!!!! are still heads of their diocese.. sick... completely sick.

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 21, 2008....

  Hey kelly, long time no see. You bring up a good point about religion and what gods are worshiped, as well as bringing religion under logical inspection.
  
  What everyone needs to understand is that in some way or another, we're all hypocrites. Case in point: most people believe the Golden Rule is a good way to live, but we all have fallen short of it at one point or another. How can we follow it perfectly if we treat other people like dirt and look out for only ourselves from time to time? Or constantly?
  
  People in positions of authority are under more scrutiny when it comes to hypocrisy. Religious people are as well because, unless they follow a religion of excess and indulgence, they hold themselves to a higher standard. Add that to the office of the papacy and you have a lightning rod of controversy.
  
  I simply believe that Christianity is the largest religion in the world because it's true. I also believe that since we're all hypocrites in some form or another, religion or not, we're going to make ourselves, AND our causes, look bad at times. Does that make God or Jesus Christ bad? No...imperfect beings such as humans, working to attain a relationship with a perfect being, are obviously going to fall short here and there.
  
  Might I add that it's easy for the average person to mock or to belittle religion for its higher standards when its adherents keep falling short. But isn't that kind of like an obese person making fun of an Olympic sprinter for falling down? I'd rather fail trying to achieve something great than sit and critique and accomplish nothing extraordinary.
  
  And that's why it's possible to turn the table on religious skeptics and say that many of them are lazy critics. They say religion is all for nought but fail to understand just what they're denouncing. Worse, even their arguments can be lazy. Why even give them the time of day defending my beliefs when they are clearly not very open-minded?
  
  As it stands, it seems the biggest reason people get disillusioned  with religion is because they think their god is just as faulty as the hypocritical believers they run into. But I don't think that's a very good reason. What I mean is this: if the God of the Bible is true, and you die and meet Him one day, and He asks you why you chose not to believe in Him, how much weight will that carry if you tell Him that it's everyone else's fault? That the person who didn't help you when you fell down, the church that turned their back on your family when your finances were struggling, the skeptic that convinced you to turn away from your faith, all contributed to your unbelief?
  
  How can any former religious person claim to be "free" of the dogma if they bought into the "doctrine" of the skeptics and the hypocrisy of other people to leave their religion in the first place?
  
  Kelly is on the right track...whatever you believe, know WHY you believe it. Scrutinize it, put it to the test. Stake your life on it. Whatever. But remember that whatever you choose, stay accountable to others you trust, because if you chose poorly, they will get you out.
  

• Lucytorial said on Jul 21, 2008....

  Lidstrom, thanks for stopping by I don't think I've had the pleasure before.

  One thing I wouldn't do is criticise a god or someones belief in a particular god for the misdeeds of few.  You are right, completely right in saying knowing what you believe is the only way to gain a full and open understanding...

  I guess I was questioning why in certain religions the people who believe do not stand up for themselves when they see something is not right, again it is down to a few factors of see no evil hear no evil.. then again I don't know enough and I'm happy to say that I don't know enough to broad swipe as I have above, I was hoping to air an oprinion and gain a little wisdom along the way.

• lidstrom82 said on Jul 22, 2008....

  Hey Lucy! Yeah I don't think we've run into each other on SC before, glad to have you. I think your post is a very good thing because it opens dialogue on religion - something many people avoid.
  What kind of "certain religions" do you see where their adherents do not stand up for what is right? Could you give me an example or two? I've seen it before in Christianity, and think I see it often in Islam, but I just wanted to see your perspective on it.

• Lucytorial said on Jul 23, 2008....

  Sorry to get back so late, I've been working my proverbial off...

  I don't think there are many of the main religions that don't do this... we could start obviously with Crhistianity, and its been going on from the very begining, let say the dead see scrolls.. which also stems to the Judaic religion as well.. we're talking of two sects of the same religion (if I get it right), then we can go on to bhuddism... now certain people who do believe have stood up but not upheald the whole idea of it in the first place so many up risings concerning tibet and the Dalai Lama are misplaced...

   

  Its complex and I still don't fully understand it all Lidstrom, my own experiences are with the Baptist Church, Christian churches and also Anglican churches.  Its difficult to define, but my main problem is that there is no forum to express the rediculous amassing of wealth for the few and power for the few when they abuse it time and time again.. I'm off track I know..

  One of the best religious experiences I have EVER had the pleasure of being a part of was a christian/Aboriginal funeral/burial.... the mixture of the spiritual of the native was combined beautifully with the doctrine of good... by that I mean, true open spirituality melded with the faith of the father the son and holy ghost.  It was truly magical in the way in which the pastor conducted himself, the way in which he helped his people (who were aboriginals) and the way in which he respected the natural laws... no wealth, just humans.. I think maybe that this power that so few hold have taken my beliefs to a point where it is too far removed from every day life, from true spiritual life to become meaningful to me... maybe to others as well, which is maybe why so many people are undecided... or not committed to the edicts of a particular mode of mans interpretation of god... just MHO... but your conversation is very much appreciated and I'm enjoying learning to question a few new things/ideas/concepts.

  I hope you reply.

• Lucytorial said on Jul 23, 2008....

  Christ almighty!!! (meant nicely of course, I'm an Aussie, think Aussie accent on youngish women) what a thud in the head moment.

   

  I have just now realised having read your first three sentences (4 times) something very important.

  What a believer thinks is the right thing to do is completely different to what I THINK is the right thing to do for their beleif!

  Anyone can sit here and say but if you believe??? then why are you doing or not doing this??? if you don't understand what they believe is the right thing to do how can you possibly judge it as right or wrong action/inaction... what a dahhh moment.

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