• D6fer said on Jun 26, 2008....

  the capitalist one will work just fine once the socialists quit messing with it......we already have a capitalist/socialist hybrid system.....that is precisely why it doesnt work!

• bloc said on Jun 26, 2008....

  i don't think your conclusions follow from the article.

• SeanRenaud said on Jun 26, 2008....

  That socialist heath care collapsed under it's own weight?  It's not that our system is great, it definitely needs fixing but it didn't work in Canada or at least that's not what the founder of it thinks.

• bloc said on Jun 26, 2008....

  define work? People in Canada get healthcare. More people in America go without care than in Canada. It's easy to talk about wait times if you don't count the millions of americans that do nothing but wait because they don't have insurance. What about the americans that die because their HMO refused some treatment? 
  
  
  Pointing out flaws in Canada's system does not lead to the conclusion that our system is better. 

• SeanRenaud said on Jun 26, 2008....

  The fact that when they have an emergency they send their people to us would lead to the conclusion that their system doesn't work.  That we have better Cancer survival rates kinda counts for something too.

• bloc said on Jun 26, 2008....

  "The fact that when they have an emergency they send their people to us"
  
  
  Except that they don't generally. Does that fact that americans buy drugs from canada mean they have a better system?

• SeanRenaud said on Jun 26, 2008....

  No, but You could debate that since pharmacutical companies in Canada and Europe aren't profitable that US Pharmacuticals do an unbalanced amount of research vs the rest of the world and thus charge higher prices.
   
  But ultimately no it doesn't prove anything.  The fact that both the US and Canada are convinced that their systems suck means *gasp* both existing models suck and a new way needs to be figured

• bloc said on Jun 26, 2008....

  they both suck, but in american the majority of bankruptcies are due to health care bills. In america healthcare is a roadblock to entrepreneurship because small businesses can't hire people without benefits and our benefits cost more. In America we pay far more per person than these other industrialized countries.
  
  
  When you move away from the care provided, our system is clearly the worst. 
  
  
  Also, I'll bet that Canadians think more highly of their system than Americans do of ours.

• D6fer said on Jun 26, 2008....

  let them eat cake! right bloc? that seems to be what you are saying......if everyone has shitty healthcare...then that is more fair than if some have none and others have varying degrees of healthcare? The shared misery theory?

• bloc said on Jun 26, 2008....

  no, what I'm saying is htis. If both systems have problems with providing care the the one that doesn't force millions into bankruptcy while costing more is better. 

• D6fer said on Jun 26, 2008....

  sounds more like a bankruptcy law problem than a medical one to me.

• bloc said on Jun 26, 2008....

  LOL

• bloc said on Jun 26, 2008....

  I got my site back up so I'm off to bed. See you guys tomorrow. 

• SeanRenaud said on Jun 27, 2008....

  I think there is something inherently wrong with a system that the man who fathered it is saying lets stop doing it and that maybe we shouldn't be emulating it.  I've yet to hear a Canadian or a Brit speak highly of their medical system or defend it at all.  I don't even hear what I would expect which is the usual atleast it's better than the US way.
   
  I mean this is practically George Washington saying, well you knwo breaking away from England, not as a good an idea as it seemed to be.

• D6fer said on Jun 27, 2008....

  I agree with Sean......I had heard that yesterday, that this guy who designed it said that it was crap.......I think it is obvious.....if you give something away it is not appreciated....people will feel they are entitled, not privileged....they will always take more than their share......the poor are greedy too...they are just not very smart about it.

• bloc said on Jun 27, 2008....

  "the man who fathered it is saying lets stop doing it"
  
  
  He didn't say "let's stop doing it and use the american system". He said, "let's change it and add SOME privatization". You've mischaracterized this article several times.
  
  
  
  

• theesoulcaster said on Jun 28, 2008....

  We do need to fix American health care.It's all about the money.*Big pharma is a greed machine.They stop cures and things that will not make them rich.It has been called "*THE MEDICAL MAFIA".

  Give us *LINKS that prove the American health system works!

• SeanRenaud said on Jun 28, 2008....

  I didn't claim the US system works, I proved the Canadian one (which we want to implement) isn't working and they are shifting in our direction.  Also you can make a strong argeument that US pharmacutical prices are artificially high because America is basically the only  country doing medical research now because it simply isn't profitiable in other countries.  So not only do we have a monopoly due to no fault of our own, but we are also developing the technology used in Canada, and Britan. 
   
  Remember when it comes to research, particularly medicine it's a bunch of guys who say, well maybe this'll work!  Ok lets try that!  And they burn millions on stuff that never makes it past the lets try this on a white rat phase.  (and some don't make it that far)  The idea that they stop cures is just silly.

• D6fer said on Jun 28, 2008....

  did anyone say it worked? I think everyone here has a beef with the current healthcare system.....but the problem is that it is an idealogical tug of war......socialism vs capitalism......it doesnt work in a hybrid sense in my opinion, and I think canadas HC system is proof that it doesnt work in a socialist style system period.......while I do agree with most that regulation is important, I also think that we need to take a more aggressive free market approach.
  As an example, I recently started a health savings account through my wifes work, and we love it......we are paying about what we were before, but now it is completely tax free.....that is quite good leverage.......if we were to introduce this on a national level, the free market would control costs much better, and then we be better prepared to take care of the poor with some other means.....possibly even have an account where uncle sam chips in x amount to their own HSA that belongs to them, and that they can add to whenever they are able to do so.
  

• D6fer said on Jun 28, 2008....

  sean is right, and if I may expand on that, we also have groups like PETA blocking our ability to do animal testing in order to get drugs to market sooner, and with less failure.

• bloc said on Jun 28, 2008....

  "I proved the Canadian one (which we want to implement) isn't working and they are shifting in our direction.  "
  
  
  This is terribly flawed logic. What you're saying is that if any system is not perfect then it "isn't working". By this logic no system will ever work. Then you imply that ours is better since they are "shifting" in our direction. Oddly I didn't see the guy in the article say that Canada should abandon universal coverage. The idea that a system needs to be improved is not proof that it's failed or worse than some other system.
  
  
  "The idea that they stop cures is just silly."
  
  
  It is terribly silly and no one would suggest such a thing. Again, this binary thinking is flawed. It's a false choice to ask "keep doing what we're doing OR stop making medicine altogether". Here's a novel idea, why don't we publicly invest in research? Oh wait, we do, then we give the patents to companies with monopoly rights (is this no fault of our own?).
  
  
  @d6
  we've been through the health savings accounts before. Please address the flaws if you want to promote it. What happens if a person with such an account finds out they have cancer and they don't have enough money in their account to pay for treatment? You'll say high deductible insurance. What if no insurance company will cover them because of their disease? What if the company refuses the treatment they need?
  
  
  Here is what will happen in a free market. Insurance companies will only cover healthy people and refuse coverage to the ill. That's how you make a profit in insurance.
  
  
  
  

• D6fer said on Jun 28, 2008....

  there will always be cracks to cover, but that is where the government steps in.....I have no problem with Uncle Sam ponying up for problems in the case of pre-existing conditions, but I do have a problem with the government telling free enterprise that they have to lose money and pay for it.......I think that people should get a one time opportunity to get started.....if they have pre-existing and cant get covered then the government plan kicks in.....there should be no excuse after that.

• SeanRenaud said on Jun 28, 2008....

  There system is more than, not working.  It's collapsing under its own weight and falling apart.  They artificially kept it afloat by flooding it with more money but that didn't solve the problem, it just staved off the end. 
   
  The idea that they stop cures is rediculous because they wouldn't stop making medicine all together, not unless they had discovered a vaccine that would prevent anybody from getting another cold.  A cure for cancer would make so much money, I find it unlikely that the somebody invented it but since they make so much off of chemo that they simply aren't releasing it.  Just like I find it unlikely that the Oil tycoons have a cold fusion car that costs less than five thousand dollars to make and could be mass produced as of yesterday but they're making too much off of oil.
   
  I have no idea why we give the patents to companies for publicly funded research.  That's bullshit and should never have started, publicly funded should be open to the public.  A company might had ingrediant A, or B to make it more effective, or blue so they can brand it but they shouldn't be granted the patent for anything that was government funded.

• bloc said on Jun 28, 2008....

  @d6
  
  
  I'm open to the idea, but I need to hear good ways of dealing with those cracks first. I haven't heard any yet.
  
  
  "if they have pre-existing and cant get covered then the government plan kicks in.....there should be no excuse after that."
  
  
  What about the scenario I've laid out before. A serious illness or accident can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Most americans will not be able to save that much in a savings account. Here's the issue, does the insurance company have to cover their treatment? There is plenty of evidence that in our current system insurance companies have denied coverage for no other reason than to increase profits. 
  
  
  
  

• bloc said on Jun 28, 2008....

  @sean
  
  
  " I find it unlikely that the somebody invented it but since they make so much off of chemo that they simply aren't releasing it."
  
  
  So this is an example of how markets are the right choice for healthcare?

• bloc said on Jun 28, 2008....

  "they shouldn't be granted the patent for anything that was government funded"
  
  
  Usually it's a mixture of government grants and private investment. It's a tangled web.

• SeanRenaud said on Jun 30, 2008....

  Depending on how much the private company pitched in we grant them a monopoly for X years.  If I'm not mistaken medical monopolies have a limited shelf life anyway (it's too long to care about) but it's not like a trade mark where nobody can ever use Mickey Mouse (outside of the Fair Use Act, and Parody laws)

• GEORGEBUSH said on Jun 30, 2008....

  I run everything Get over it.

• D6fer said on Jun 30, 2008....

  bloc....I don't know of any situation like that....doesn't mean it didnt happen....I've just never heard of....but any way.....there is a high deductible insurance with my HSA and I am pretty sure it covers everything beyond that....but I will check into it.
  

• bloc said on Jun 30, 2008....

  @d6
  there are millions of such examples each year. I blogged about one in the area I live where the insurance company refused a transplant for a teenager. The parents fought and fought and the insurance company caved but she died right afterwards. 
  
  
  @sean
  I realized the irony of you point a few minutes ago. You point out how a woman in canada wasn't able to get care for something and you then claim the solution to this problem (someone unable to get care) is to switch to a system which by it's nature refuses care to millions of people on purpose! Oh the irony ;)

• zodiac1 said on Jul 01, 2008....

  All in all...I'd take Canadian health care.There are waiting lines in both countries.

• D6fer said on Jul 02, 2008....

  zodiac....have you stood in both lines?
  
  

• ALT said on Jul 04, 2008....

  Health care should only be for illegal aliens. Americans can pay,pay and pay.
  Meximerica is the future. Let them squirt out babies by the millions while dumb Amerikans pay for it all.Health care!?.... not for us! Canada? did you mean CANICO?
  There is no money in this country for our people. PURITAN'S PRIDE offers the best price for vitamins.Let them handle our so called "health care" as well. We have food lines.We should have health care lines! All drugs should be generic,over the counter. We play the money game.
  

• bloc said on Jul 04, 2008....

  yeah, those damn mexicans are living it up in mansions while I'm going bankrupt and picking pesticide drenched strawberries to try and feed my family until I die of cancer. Oh, wait, that's backwards.
  
  
  Long live Christian love.

• SeanRenaud said on Jul 05, 2008....

  You know I've long questioned how the hell that happened.  You know Christians being pro-capitalism, pro-isolationism, pro-military.  The only major political (social) stance they hold that isn't 100% hypocritical is being pro-life.  Oh and I suppose anti-science isn't 100% hypocritical.

• bloc said on Jul 05, 2008....

  "The only major political (social) stance they hold that isn't 100% hypocritical is being pro-life"
  
  
  And they are selectively pro-life :/

• SeanRenaud said on Jul 05, 2008....

  At least with the old testament you can divide capital punishment from abortion with ease.  Honeslty I've never really understood why people try to draw a parallel there.  It's like comparing prison work camps to the slave trade IMO.

• bloc said on Jul 05, 2008....

  because innocent people are put to death with capital punishment. 

• SeanRenaud said on Jul 05, 2008....

  Assumed but never proven, from what I've read they have never been able to confirm a single innocent was ever put to death (we're all in agreement that it's happened) by contrast there are people who are clearly guilty who've been set free. 

• bloc said on Jul 05, 2008....

  what is the burden of proof? We've had numerous people on death row exonerated by dna. Over half of the people tested in IL on death row came up innocent!
  
  
  What's funny is htat you want more proof to prove someones innocence than their guilt!

• bloc said on Jul 06, 2008....

  ZOMG the american system refuses treatment as well. There kicker here is that these people HAVE insurance.
  
  
  "Kaiser refused to provide most of the treatment that specialists said Andrew needed -- until the state ordered it to in April.
  
  
  ...
  
  
  Treatment is mainly behavioral training, teaching such skills as dressing. There is wide agreement that the sooner treatment begins, the more effective it is, and that early intervention pays off in the long run by developing self-reliance."
  
  
  source

• wideopen said on Jul 07, 2008....

  Is a squirt of sperm hitting an egg life after a few weeks?
  We have "PRO-LIFE" groups.
  Where are the "ANTI-LIFE" groups.
  Oh ya...the U.S. military and the Taliban
  

• catch22 said on Jul 08, 2008....

  American healthcare? It's really American"WE DON"T CARE"

• D6fer said on Jul 08, 2008....

  you people are a drag!

• curezillla said on Jul 09, 2008....

  Sean;
  
  Go to this below and tell the world that this is not a proven cure for MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS.I know people who are cured. The MS society and the medical mafia make over $10 billion dollars a year off of peoples suffering. They will not talk about this all natural, drug free cure. ALS is smashed by this as well. Will you at least read this? It was discovered in 1940!
  
  Dr.F.R. Klenner's protocol for May 2003
  
  There is more info I can give,but start by googling the above^
  

• SeanRenaud said on Jul 09, 2008....

  My gut instinct is to call bullshit.  If it worked that well why isn't he getting more fame, obviously the medical mafia forgot to shut him up, they even let him publish a book instead of burying him in San Fransisco harbor.  So gut instinct calls bullshit. 
   
  Still I'll burn some energy seeing if I can find ANYTHING on this other than an exert from a book.

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