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The Supreme Court ruled today that individuals have the right to keep and bear arms. It's official - this idiotic theory that the framers of the Constitution somehow tied the possession of firearms to a State or government militia is finally dead.

According to the Associated Press, this ruling does not undo all restrictions on where firearms may be carried, such as schools, government buildings and so on. Neither does the AP think that most gun laws now in place will be affected. The Court simply said that Washington DC cannot ban the possession of handguns outright. Individuals have the right to keep and bear arms for the purposes of self-defense and hunting.

The Second Amendment reads:

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

Of course this Supreme Court's interpretation is the only one that makes sense. In the First Amendment, government may not proscribe individual expression or religious practice. Neither is limited to clergy or press. If government is prohibited from trampling individual rights in the First and Fourth Amendments, how can we all of a sudden start talking about "collective" rights in the Second? That makes no sense at all!

 

For those who still do not believe that individuals ought not have the right to keep and bear firearms, you have but one thing to do: Get the Second Amendment repealed. That's what you all should have been doing all along. But be prepared for long and drawn out resistance. America's gun owners will not give up without a huge and costly legislative battle.



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Comments

  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 26, 2008....
    It's nto the only  interpretation.  The second is so poorly written that in two hundred years it's never been positively interpreted.  You could easily argue that in order to be a gun owner you need also be part of a well regulated militia.  Repealing the second is necessary, just interpret what's written differently.
  • mulgere-hircum said on Jun 26, 2008....
    But Sean, as I think Curm pointed out, why the shift from the individual's rights in the first amendment to the collective rights of the militia in the 2nd and back to the individual's rights in the fourth amendment.  That makes no sense.  If one wants to legally interpret the 2nd amendment in a way that states that only militia can bear arms then they have to have evidence that the authors did intend such a shift when referring to "the people."  There is not evidence to support that, hence the Supreme Court's ruling.

    When the constitution opens up and it says "We the People of the United States" is it referring to the militia? Or all the people?  When the first amendment says...

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    ...
    would you interpret "the right of the people" to mean militia?

    When the fourth amendment says...

    "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

    ...
    should the "right of the people" be interpreted as speaking only to the militia?

    If not, why would that apply to the 2nd amendment.  If you say because the word militia is in the 2nd and not in the 1st and 4th...then I think Curm answers that fine himself when he says: "In the First Amendment, government may not proscribe individual expression or religious practice. Neither is limited to clergy or press."

    Whenever interpreting a text that is held to be authoritative (as the constitution is), it is important to be as consistent and literal as possible...especially a text that is meant to be taken literally, as the constitution was.  So, what was the author's intent?  Historically speaking, Madison and crew were protecting rights that were taken away from the colonists by Britain.  If not for ARMED individuals, who would make up these militia? If one is to be reasonable, it is clear that Madison and crew were protecting the rights of individuals to bear arms which in turn enables "the people" to form well regulated militias.  Weapons, firearms or not, have never been banned by our government.  Historically speaking, from Madison down to the present day, the right to bear arms has always been known to be the right of the individual.  To take away such rights would be a violation of the US Constitution not in support of it.
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 26, 2008....
    four out of nine judges disagree with you.  I agree with the decision that was made, but the factis that what is written isn't clear.
  • curmudgeon said on Jun 26, 2008....
    Obviously you can interpret the Constitution any way you want.
     
    The only way that makes sense to me, however, is to take "the People" to mean individuals, NOT employees of the State, ie militias.
     
    Apparently this also makes sense to the Supreme Court. At least I agree with them on this one.
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 26, 2008....
    A militia is not by definition employee of the state.  In fact considering the Founding Fathers were essentially traitors who'd won their independence it is likely they meant so that you could defend yourself AGAINT the state. 
     
    Most of the Constitution is clearer than the 2nd.  Course I usually say who gives a shit what some guys two hundred years ago were thinking, it bears no relevance to the conversation.
  • mulgere-hircum said on Jun 26, 2008....
    Thankfully, Sean, four out of nine is a minority and that the majority see it the clear-headed way that you and I see it...lol!  Yes, the founding fathers were meaning to give the people a means of defending themselves against the State...hence why they have the right to bear arms.  I am not sure I understood you on this; however, are you saying that what the writers of the constitution were thinking bears no relevance to the conversation?  If so, I disagree.  If we are to accurately interpret the constitution, we sure need to give some serious thought on what the authors were intending when they wrote it; otherwise, we might as well roll it up and smoke it.  If that is not what you were saying then forgive me for misinterpreting your statement.
  • Lucytorial said on Jun 26, 2008....

    I've just said my bit on this in a another bog of Cops....

     

    Regardless of the interpretations of which I do not know your constitution ~ I cannot understand why Americans feel they NEED firearms at all? its seems pointless to me... but I come from a country where its illegal, zero tollerence, you cannot simple buy a lisence go to the corner store and buy a gun.

  • D6fer said on Jun 26, 2008....
    tobi lee.....so which individuals in AU have firearms?
  • Lucytorial said on Jun 26, 2008....

    Those in the armed forces, those who use them for sports and those who use them on their properties (farmers) the process of getting a firearm is lengthy, back ground checks are extremely in depth and you are inspected regularly to ensure your fire arms are correctly locked up ~ Should you be found to have your license expired you are fined and your weapon is removed and you go through court, you are then not allowd to own a firearm again.

    Seriously its difficult to get one legally, I know that there will always be black market firearms, you can't stamp out the mafia here either but it does stop freaks from walking into a gun shop, buying a gun and going out and shooting people.

  • mulgere-hircum said on Jun 26, 2008....
    Lucytorial: The American way, as the British aptly found out during the American Revolution, is to say to the system, "Who the hell are you to tell me that I can't have a gun?  Who the hell are you to increase taxation without representation? Who the hell are you to blockade my ports?"  The right to bear arms comes from the necessity to organize and defend oneself and one's people from the evils of a tyrannical government.  Most Americans view any government that infringes on the rights, including to bear arms, of people to be tyrannical.  Hence why there is a huge debate between those who wish Big Government to control everything, and the rest of us who see that as a huge mistake!
  • mulgere-hircum said on Jun 26, 2008....
    Lucytorial:  Are kitchen knives banned?  If not, what stops freaks from kidnapping people and killing them with their kitchen knives.  Lots of people can be killed that way too, and it's more silent.  There are more ways to kill people than shooting them.  Jack the Ripper didn't use a gun, nor did the Boston Strangler, or many other killers.  Freaks will be freaks regardless of the weapons available.
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 26, 2008....
    Without guns you're just waiting for your government to take over and repeat the Holocaust.  Period.  End discussion.
     
    Actually to be fair MH I wouldn't be entirely against tossing the Consitution out the window and drafting a new one, from scratch.  What a bunch of guys two hundred years ago though has zero bearing on todays world.  I'll give you a few examples off the top of my head.
     
    The second amendment says the right to keep and bear ARMS shall not be infringed.  Not gun.  This is an important distinction because at the time it meant a handful of things, pistol, musket, cannon.  However it logically applies ti ICBM, Howitzers and F18's.  Even more so it is kinda necessary.  Do you really think if the US military staged a coup for whatever reason that you could fight back with the weapons that are legal?  We're damned either way here, I don't really want Crips and Bloods to be able to purchase grenades, and gods only know what would happen if they had tanks or ICBMs but the second applies.
     
    The fourth protects against unlawful search and seizure without warrant.  This makes drunk driving check points Unconstitional.  However when the founding fathers wrote this up being drunk, you might fall off your horse and break your neck.  You might get into a fight, you might even shoot somebody, but realistically you were harmless.  You certainly weren't wrapped in two tons of steel traveling a mile a minute.
     
    The fourteenth states that anybody who was born in America is an American.  It was designed with a single purpose.  To make citizens of the newly freed slaves.  Course the last citizen who was a slave is dead.  (I reckon long dead fifty years  if not more.) today it means that if somebody manages to cross the Rio Grande and spit out a baby, that child is a US citizen, since we don't separate families and we can't deport US citizens that just gets you a freebie to stay in the states until your child is 18.
     
    The Founding Fathers were smart, they had great foresight, but they weren't psychic and our world is so much different from anything they could have possibly imagined.  The world didn't chage THAT much between the fall of Rome and the US Civil war.  People rode horses, many people farmed for food, so on and so forth.  The last hundred years has been nothing short of amazing and trying to apply what a bunch of guys who hadn't harnessed electricity think is pointless.
  • bloc said on Jun 26, 2008....
    "Without guns you're just waiting for your government to take over and repeat the Holocaust.  Period.  End discussion."

    Without tanks, bombers, missiles, artillery, and nukes you're just waiting for your government to take over and repeat the holocaust. Period. End Discussion.

    The 2nd amendment is so poorly written that it should be a joke. One thing all of you have ignored is the "well regulated" part. The right is tied directly to militias, which is why they lead off with militias. It's one sentence! The subject of the sentence is a "well regulated militia". 

    As I allude to in my parody of sean, it doesn't mention guns anywhere. It says "arms". Does this mean we can own grenades, missiles, 50 cal's, rocket launchers, and tanks?
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 26, 2008....
    Actually I agree with all of what you just said, I just agree that it's better to err on the side of not having ICBM's in the hands of regular crazies than it is to be paranoid about Bush kidnapping my neighbors and holding them as enemy combatants.
     
    The well regulated militia means what exactly though?  I have to assume they were talking about minute men and that consisted (basically) of any able bodied men grabbing whatever they could and joining the fight. 
     
    I do agree that the 2nd is atrociously written.
  • bloc said on Jun 26, 2008....
    you know what's funny, if you read Scalia's take on this issue he basically says that it applies to more than guns :/
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 26, 2008....
    I doubt it will be applied to things "upward" of guns.  I'd personally like to be able to order nunchucks.  I get those fantasy swords catalogs and like half the stuff can't ship to CA. 
     
    I don't forsee (or want) grenades to be commercially available.
  • D6fer said on Jun 26, 2008....
    Tobi-lee.....are there no criminals with guns in AU?
  • silverwhisper said on Jun 27, 2008....
    that's odd, i somehow missed this in the news yesterday. thank you, curm.

    ed
  • mulgere-hircum said on Jun 27, 2008....
    Sean, I agree with you.  But to Curm's point...if we are to take the constitution seriously, as everyone seems to think we should, then we have to follow what it says, no matter how unclear it might be.  Again I think the 2nd is clear when put into the proper context, which you get, but bloc somehow missed.  That context is: without armed individuals there can be no armed "people" to form militias.  I agree with you though. With the weapons we are allowed, no one could reasonably fight back against the government.  So, that constitutional amendment falls short right off the bat.  I also agree that the forefathers didn't foresee such a world that we live in.  But if we are going to change the rules we need to repeal the stuff we don't need or should not apply at the very least, if not, as you mentioned, toss it completely.  If we do that though...I think my using it as rolling paper and smoking option should do nicely...  ;^)
  • curmudgeon said on Jun 27, 2008....
    If the Second Amendment is indeed poorly written, and if Americans do not "need" to keep and bear arms, gee folks, go ahead and get it repealed!!
     
    The last time we tried to amend the Constitution was the Equal Rights Amendment.
     
    It expired without ratification.
     
    I believe that our Constitution is sufficient for our needs today, tomorrow and into the future, because it provides guidelines that apply to everyone, not just smaller and smaller sub-groups with grievances.
     
    I've heard "well-regulated" could mean two things:
    • That the militia itself is "well regulated" so that it cannot itself become a tyrannical force
    • That members of the milita can shoot well
    I think it's right to interpret what these words mean for us today, but we must also be guided by what the Founders intended.
     
    I'm more interested in the right of "the people" here, because "the People" are are mentioned throughout the Constitution. Even if we're discarding what the Founders intended, today, "the People" still means individuals.
     
    That's what five Justices voted for yesterday. The fact that almost half of the justices do not interpret the Constitution this way should strike a chord of anger in the American People.
  • mulgere-hircum said on Jun 27, 2008....
    I agree Curm.  I agree with the ruling.  I think your point is well put.  If we are to keep the constitution, and I am for keeping it for reasons I'll mention below, we need to interpret it as accurately as possible.  Any speculative judgment, such as interpreting "The People" to mean militia only and not civilian individuals (when it is well known that militia were made up of common civilians who were armed), is not an accurate interpretation.  It is another attempt to have Big Government control everything.  I am certainly not for that.  I am also not for tossing the constitution because what would we replace it with?  The replacement could end up being a scary thing. 
  • bloc said on Jun 27, 2008....
    "Any speculative judgment, such as interpreting "The People" to mean militia only and not civilian individuals (when it is well known that militia were made up of common civilians who were armed), is not an accurate interpretation."

    It's also not accurate to ignore the well regulated part, or the part about "arms" not guns. 

    @curm
    You assume that I'm for strict gun control, but I'm not. The problem is that I've never heard a coherent explanation of the words in the 2nd amendment. What the court did is interpret the 2nd amendment based on modern viewpoints. I don't have a problem with that, but I find it funny that conservatives scream bloody murder when the court does this for a liberal cause and then praise it when they do it for a conservative cause. The only way to be a strict constitutionalist on this is to interpret "arms" to mean all arms which is what the founding fathers meant when they wrote it. 
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 27, 2008....
    I've also heard that well regulated meant trained and maintained.  Again like I said we were talking about a world where a bunch of guys with bows and arrows could be a legit threat to the military. 
     
    I swear we need to get a time machine and just ask, uh George, what EXACTLY do you mean with this one and do you think maybe we could rephrase it a tad?  Oh and if there is a map to secret treasure on the back how bought we put it on something else?
  • D6fer said on Jun 27, 2008....
    The second amendment wasnt screwed with until modern times really......so the framers were around long enough to see that the people were freely possessing firearms.....I think that is simple enough......if they thought there was a problem, they would have changed it then. 
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 27, 2008....
    Well it wasn't until modern times that we possed arms that could level a building and kill several thousand people with the push of a button.  Can you imagine an ICBM and the Super Bowl?
  • bloc said on Jun 27, 2008....
    exactly!
  • Lucytorial said on Jun 27, 2008....
    D6 ~ Of course there are, not just every damned household.. Every human being has it in them to kill, when you have a gun lying around and you lose it, you will kill someone with it... I know you're all having a go because I'm not delving into the constitution as you guys see it.  I don't think I will get into this anymore, its great to talk about this but I see no point in it myself.
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 27, 2008....
    Not every American has a gun, not even the vast majority.  But really my point Lucy was that if your government for whatever reason turns on you, you are aware that you are completely helpless.  We're not much better off, the only good news we have is that no war has ever been won by air alone, you gotta put boots to concrete and kick in doors eventually and hand guns and shot guns arguably have an advantage in urban combat.  It's also assuming that the government won't just level cities but that's a fair guess.
     
    It's every, single human beings right to defend themselves and without a gun you'll have a hard time of it, particularly if the other guy has one
  • bloc said on Jun 27, 2008....
    "you are aware that you are completely helpless. "

    This isn't true at all. In Iraq we've seen that IED's are more effective than guns. 

    "It's every, single human beings right to defend themselves and without a TANK you'll have a hard time of it, particularly if the other guy has one"
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 27, 2008....
    Cept for a few things.  We could start with the fact that the IED's usually wound and stop the vehicle so that people with guns can shoot you.  But even aside from that IED's are usually made from unexploded ordnance and rigged.  It's not like the insurgents don't have guns, they simply aren't their most effective weapon.
     
    And I agree that if the other guy doesn't have  tank you'll have a hard time defending yourself.  I only make two points both of which I've made previously in this blog.  The first is that we have to hope that the conquerer wants to keep the infrastructure and population somewhat intact.  The fact is we could could carpet bomb Iraq back into the middle ages and be done with it.  Tanks have the same problem as planes.  Hard time getting in doors.  While there is nothing quite like air superiority you can't win a war without boots on the ground (unless you're just kinda wounding someone and walking away i.e. Gulf War 1.  Even that had boots on the ground.  When it comes to building by building fighting we might have something that resembles a chance.  Though not with sticks and stones.
  • mulgere-hircum said on Jun 27, 2008....
    bloc, your just circling with word-play.  The fact is that "muskets" are in fact firearms.  Key word = fireARMS.  Stop it with the semantics.
  • mulgere-hircum said on Jun 27, 2008....
    One other thing, it's not like the we are talking about the dark ages in Europe.  We are talking about the end of the eighteenth century where muskets and hand pistols existed.  These are rudimentary guns.  They had cannons, and other explosives as well.  So the forefathers were not in the dark about firearms.  Now, Sean has a point that they could not have foreseen weapons of mass destruction...but to pretend that the founding fathers were in the dark about firearms is just nonsense.
  • silverwhisper said on Jun 28, 2008....
    so what do folks think of the fact that the SC's decisions revolves around self-defense, and says that licensing & registration are not protected by the second amendment?

    ed
  • bloc said on Jun 28, 2008....
    @mulgere
    I'm not playing word games, I'm reading the words as they are writting. It says arms not firearms. Justice Scalia makes a similar point in this ruling, is he playing word games?
  • mulgere-hircum said on Jun 28, 2008....
    Bloc, let me clear up my understanding of what you are saying.  Because I might just agree with you. Are you suggesting that the debate is not limited to guns because the wording states arms?  If so, I agree.  The wording does not limit arms to merely firearms.  I was tired last night when I read your comment and I took it as you were trying to exclude firearms. If so, I apologize as I misread your statement.  Reading it today, I am taking it that we are actually in agreement that arms means all arms, as the authors intended.
  • bloc said on Jun 28, 2008....
    that is what I meant. This is why I think the 2nd amendment needs to be amended. I don't believe individuals should have the right to own any type of "arms" they want. 
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 28, 2008....
    And as much as I hate to say it I agree.  As much as I believe that because we can't defend ourselves against our government (which oddly enough ties very strongly with what bloc basically suggests has happened in America.  That Bush & Co can, and have snatched people off the streets with little or no evidence of their guilt and we should be concerned about gestapo styled police snatching us from our homes.  I can't comprehend how people could hold the belief that our government HAS turned on us or atleast is in the opening stages of such a thing AND that we should be unable to protect ourselves.  I suppose it makes just as much sense as hardcore Christians not being socialists.  (ps, you win people aren't logical, at best they are predictable and sometimes not even that))
     
    I would like to see pretty much all small arms legalized with a few acceptions, and all non fire arms legalized without acception.  Swords, nunchucks, ninja stars, tazers, all of that kind of crap should be legal period.  I'm willing to negotiate on high end, well regulated can be twisted to mean registered and background checks and hell even trained in proper use and maintence of.
  • D6fer said on Jun 28, 2008....
    how about citizens militias? should an organized militia have the right to obtain weapons of choice?
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 28, 2008....
    No.  I would argue that Crips and Bloods meet the basic criteria of a citizen militia, particularly since some of the gangs were formed as a defense.    I really don't fancy them with F18's.  Hell ideally they don't have anything more than their bare fists but that's a dream world.  But no I don't like the idea of Bloods with ICBMs, which is a legit claim under the 2nd.
     
     
  • D6fer said on Jun 28, 2008....
    yeah, that is where it gets dicey for me too.....think of all the m13 members flooding our borders, do we want them armed to the teeth? And the Dems want blanket amnesty for those folks!
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 28, 2008....
    So do Republicans.  It's not as if Bush and McCain both didnt' support amnesty. 
  • bloc said on Jun 28, 2008....
    "and the Dems want blanket amnesty for those folks!"

    This is bullshit
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 28, 2008....
    I'd even argue that the Dem's reasoning is more "noble" the Dems want amnesty because people are people and deserve to be treated well and taken care of.  Republicans just want to keep their slave labor available.
  • D6fer said on Jun 28, 2008....
    oh bull shit! The Dems want votes.....you can't seriously think that it goes any deeper than that do you?
  • D6fer said on Jun 28, 2008....
    but you are right about the republicans....this is a frustrating point for me......the gap between republican and conservative is widening
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 28, 2008....
    I believe a lot of them aren't interested in votes and instead are really open boarders.  Chances are latinos would be republican anyway since they are by the large Catholic, and thus hold most of the republican social ideas.
  • mulgere-hircum said on Jun 28, 2008....
    Bloc, Are you for an all out ban of weapons or just for weapons deemed unreasonable?  Unreasonable might be a tricky word to define, but all the same, what should the amended second amendment say?
  • D6fer said on Jun 28, 2008....
    If we were getting the cream of the crop in immigrants from mexico, I would tend to agree with you sean.....but unfortunately, I think a good percentage of them are not too Christian like.....when they dump their prisons and chase them all up here....we are not exactly getting the pick of the litter
  • D6fer said on Jun 28, 2008....
    oh and BTW....criminals tend to lean to the left politically because that is who is more sympathetic to their cause.
  • bloc said on Jun 28, 2008....
    @mulgere
    Restricting guns isn't an issue I feel too strongly about. I lean towards liberty if there isn't a clear and strong justification for restricting freedoms. I have no problem with a city like D.C. deciding that restricting handguns is right for them and other places deciding differently. How this is reconciled with the 2nd amendment is what is interesting to me :)

    @smb and sean
    blanket amnesty for what? For being gang members? If so then it's bullshit. If you mean amnesty for their immigration status, then that isn't blanket amnesty and wasn't McCain for that too?

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