crybabylu's tags:
The Supreme Court Rules Gitmo Detainees Can use Civilian Courts.  They have the right to be tried in US Federal Court , not military court.  This gives them the same rights as you or I would have.
 
They have the rights of habeas corpus just like you and me....
Habeas corpus
 
This gives them the rights to challenge their detention.


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Comments

  • sheltercrow said on Jun 12, 2008....

    Opinion (Boumediene v. Bush), A primer on Guantanamo prison campsGuantanamo by the numbers

  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 12, 2008....
    Not that shill is even the right term here, but when has the SCOTUS shilled for Bush.  It seems they've screwed him every chance they got.
  • crybabylu said on Jun 12, 2008....
    What about a few years ago when McCain suggested that we close Gitmo, and bring them into Federal prison inside the US, and try them?
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 12, 2008....
    Link?  I don't remeber that one I mean the SCOTUS opinion not McCain
  • ALIENated said on Jun 12, 2008....
    
    This one is easy Sean. Our soldiers will not bring Osama in, if you know what
    I mean. Why should they? Why should they bring any prisioners in anymore?
    This is one of those things that looks good for POWs, but will backfire. POWs
    will now become KIAs. Things are the way they are for a reason. When your
    country and your courts turn against you, you have to do it yourself.
    
    
  • crybabylu said on Jun 12, 2008....
    Oh!
  • crybabylu said on Jun 12, 2008....
    President Bush said today, he is going to ask that special legislation be drafted to address this problem. 
  • ALIENated said on Jun 13, 2008....
    
    This is exactly why McCain must be president and appoint more justices like
    Roberts. This Supreme Court has done enough damage.
    
    
  • sheltercrow said on Jun 13, 2008....
    SCOTUS shilled for Bush when they threw him the election in Florida.

    I wanted to comment to alienated but he is repeating the same demented talking points used on the Sunday morning pundit parade. But what is the use writing to a cretin whose eyes glaze over whenever he hears the word liberal and who gets a boner for Bush.

    As for special legislation, Bush is no longer running the show anymore. The Supreme Court has finally got some balls. Between this and the special report that detailed his criminal acts to create a criminal war he is lucky to escape a prison term. Tony Blair and the former Australian prime minister are now being officially investigated for war crimes. Not by the international tribunal but by their own courts. Bush has already been found guilty of war crimes by the Tokyo tribunal. Rumsfeld, like Henry Kissinger, is under indictment for war crimes and cannot freely travel abroad. When Cheney and Bush leave office the end, for them, is near certain.

    Another special Wikipedia entry will be filled with the details of their crimes. lol.
  • ALIENated said on Jun 13, 2008....
    
    Yes, the liberal Nazis are busy stamping out all opposition and ridding the
    world of anyone who is trying to stop their stupidity.
    
    
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 13, 2008....
    Once again Shelter you clearly don't know it means to shill.  That aside if your the most controversial thing you can come up with for the SCOTUS is Bush winning over Gore then I must stick with the original answer of they've never shilled for him.
     
    Bush can't travel freely.  LOL
  • stopmediabias said on Jun 14, 2008....

    I am blown away by this.  Foreign jiahists picked up in a war authorized by Congress, classified as unlawful enemy combatants because they have no government or flag, now have access of civilian courts.  So if Mohammed al Jiad says he has a witness is Pakistan that will testify he is not a terrorist do we go to Pakistan and find this person to testify?

    What is even more disgusting is they were being held because of #1-Danger to the world #2-If we sent them back home they would either be tortured/murdered or wrongfully set free.  Some of these cockroaches have maintained they have killed Americans and will kill more Americans until they are "martyred."

    This is not a rebuke of President Bush, this is a rebuke of Liberalism as a whole and America because it sets a terrible and dangerous precedent.

     

  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 14, 2008....
    SMB:  You are aware that according to the Geneva Convention because they don't have a government of flag they cannot be considered enemy combatants.  Which is supposed to be a good thing, just the SCOTUS keeps screwing us both ways always.
  • stopmediabias said on Jun 14, 2008....

    This is exactly why they are "unlawful" enemy combatants.  We give and they take.  We didn't have to give these scum Geneva Convention status and we did, we didn't have to give them the comforts of Gitmo (in comparison to any detention facility in the world) and we did. 

    SCOTUS is supposed to interpret the law not limit Presidential power and legislate from the bench.

  • sheltercrow said on Jun 14, 2008....
    SR: If there is no protection for the accused there is merely a police state. As for SCOTUS...

    ...in November of 1962 ...in Phoenix, Arizona, ...William H. Rehnquist ...director of “ballot security” operations for the local Republican Party since 1958. ...he is the sole Republican official at a polling station in south Phoenix, which is overwhelmingly African-American, Hispanic, and Democratic.

    James J. Brosnahan, an assistant U.S. attorney, is dispatched, along with an FBI agent, to investigate these charges of voter intimidation. Mr. Broshahan’s sworn testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee in 1986 follows:

    “The complaints we received alleged in various forms that the Republican challengers were aggressively challenging many voters without having a basis for that challenge . . .

    “Based on my interviews with others, polling officials, and my fellow assistant U.S. attorneys, it was my opinion in 1962 that the challenging effort was designed to reduce the number of black and Hispanic voters by confrontation and intimidation...

    “When we arrived, the situation was tense. At that precinct I saw William Rehnquist, who was serving as the only Republican challenger. The FBI agent and I both showed our identifications to those concerned, including Mr. Rehnquist . . . The complaints did involve Mr. Rehnquist’s conduct. Our arrival and the showing of our identifications had a quieting effect on the situation and after interviewing several witnesses, we left. Criminal prosecution was declined as a matter of prosecutorial discretion...

    “I have read the testimony and letter supplied by Justice Designate William Rehnquist to this committee in 1971... He describes his role in the early 1960s as trying to arbitrate disputes at polling places. That is not what Mr. Rehnquist was doing when I saw him on Election Day in 1962.

    “At page 491 of the 1971 Record in his letter, William Rehnquist stated: ‘In none of those years did I personally engage in challenging the qualifications of any voters.’ This does not comport with my recollection of the events I witnessed in 1962 when Mr. Rehnquist did serve as a challenger.”
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 14, 2008....
    What does that post have to do with the Geneva Convention, terrorist, or the Supreme Court shilling for Bush?
     
    Also no protection for terrorists and foreigners makes us a police state?  That doesn't even begin to hold water.  You can argue that all people period should get certain protections and it might be true, but to say that mistreating foreigners makes us a police state is silly.
  • sheltercrow said on Jun 14, 2008....
    Stevens, J., dissenting Gore v. Bush

    "Time will one day heal the wound to that confidence that will be inflicted by today’s decision. One thing, however, is certain. Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year’s Presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the Nation’s confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the rule of law."

    Breyer, J., dissenting Gore v. Bush

    "For present purposes, the relevance of this history lies in the fact that the participation in the work of the electoral commission by five Justices, including Justice Bradley, did not lend that process legitimacy. Nor did it assure the public that the process had worked fairly, guided by the law. Rather, it simply embroiled Members of the Court in partisan conflict, thereby undermining respect for the judicial process. And the Congress that later enacted the Electoral Count Act knew it."

    "Nonetheless, there is no justification for the majority’s remedy, which is simply to reverse the lower court and halt the recount entirely. An appropriate remedy would be, instead, to remand this case with instructions that, even at this late date, would permit the Florida Supreme Court to require recounting all undercounted votes in Florida, including those from Broward, Volusia, Palm Beach, and Miami-Dade Counties, whether or not previously recounted prior to the end of the protest period, and to do so in accordance with a single-uniform substandard.

    The majority justifies stopping the recount entirely on the ground that there is no more time. In particular, the majority relies on the lack of time for the Secretary to review and approve equipment needed to separate undervotes. But the majority reaches this conclusion in the absence of any record evidence that the recount could not have been completed in the time allowed by the Florida Supreme Court. The majority finds facts outside of the record on matters that state courts are in a far better position to address. Of course, it is too late for any such recount to take place by December 12, the date by which election disputes must be decided if a State is to take advantage of the safe harbor provisions of 3 U.S.C. § 5. Whether there is time to conduct a recount prior to December 18, when the electors are scheduled to meet, is a matter for the state courts to determine. And whether, under Florida law, Florida could or could not take further action is obviously a matter for Florida courts, not this Court, to decide. See ante, at 13 (per curiam).

    By halting the manual recount, and thus ensuring that the uncounted legal votes will not be counted under any standard, this Court crafts a remedy out of proportion to the asserted harm. And that remedy harms the very fairness interests the Court is attempting to protect. The manual recount would itself redress a problem of unequal treatment of ballots..."

    "I fear that in order to bring this agonizingly long election process to a definitive conclusion, we have not adequately attended to that necessary “check upon our own exercise of power,” “our own sense of self-restraint.” United States v. Butler, 297 U.S. 1, 79 (1936) (Stone, J., dissenting). Justice Brandeis once said of the Court, “The most important thing we do is not doing.” Bickel, supra, at 71. What it does today, the Court should have left undone. I would repair the damage done as best we now can, by permitting the Florida recount to continue under uniform standards."

  • sheltercrow said on Jun 14, 2008....
    William H. Rehnquist shilled for bush plain and simple. Silly has nothing to do with it.
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 14, 2008....
    1.  Grow up and use words you understand.  That's not what a shill is and using words you don't understand makes you seem dumb.
     
    2.  I already granted you that the Surpreme Court made questionable call in Gore v Bush.  I ceeded that point to you.  So far that would make the SC working for once, to get him into office, and three times against him since entering office.  Sounds like they are either a) screwing him, or b) doing their jobs as they feel is right.
  • sheltercrow said on Jun 14, 2008....
    The five conservative justices had ruled that Florida's partial recount violated the Fourteenth Amendment's Equal Protection clause. But instead of remanding the case to Florida for a new full recount compliant with constitutional requirements, they simply froze Harris's certification in place and secured the presidency for their fellow Republican.

    How did they do it?

    In a brazen act of deceit, the five-justice majority issuing the Court's per curiam decision knowingly misrepresented December 12 as Florida's chosen deadline for completing the vote count. They held that Florida law allowed no time to count the remaining 175,000 votes:

    [December 12] is upon us, and there is no recount procedure in place under the State Supreme Court's order that comports with minimal constitutional standards. Because it is evident that any recount seeking to meet the December 12 date will be unconstitutional for the reasons we have discussed, we reverse the judgment of the Supreme Court of Florida ordering a recount to proceed. Bush v. Gore, 531 U.S. 98 (December 12, 2000).

    This overt misrepresentation of Florida election law flabbergasted members of the legal profession from coast to coast. These same justices who on so many prior occasions had championed the rights of states had now casually and willfully nullified Florida law.

    Ten days later, Florida Supreme Court justice Leander J. Shaw issued a calm, reasoned, and devastating rejoinder, one that has been overlooked to this day:

    [I]n my opinion, December 12 was not a 'drop-dead' date under Florida law. In fact, I question whether any date prior to January 6 is a drop-dead date under the Florida election scheme. December 12 was simply a permissive 'safe-harbor' date to which the states could aspire. It certainly was not a mandatory contest deadline under the plain language of the Florida Election Code (i.e., it is not mentioned there) or this Court's prior rulings. Gore v. Harris, 773 So. 2d 524 (December 22, 2000) (Shaw, J. concurring; emphasis in original).

    Why do we accuse the Five of grave deceit as to Florida's alleged December 12 deadline and not just all-too-human error?

    Consistent with identical laws in all fifty states, Florida requires that its slate of Electoral College delegates be awarded to the presidential candidate getting the most popular votes statewide.

    When the winner of that popular count is clear, each state's electors have the option under federal law to meet by December 12 in order to escape the technical threat of challenge by members of Congress. Due to the practical unlikelihood of such a challenge ever being raised, electors ordinarily meet in state capitals on December 18 to cast their votes. These results are forwarded to Washington, D.C. by December 27 and are tallied and verified in Congress on January 6.

    However, when the victor of a state's presidential election is not clear and a manual recount is required to determine the popular vote result, precedent, common sense, and basic respect for the democratic process dictate that the state's deadline for designating its slate of electors be January 6, the day Congress officially tabulates the electoral vote. That date provides the maximum time reasonably available for a state to ensure that its electoral votes correspond to its carefully determined popular vote winner.

    Certainly the Florida legislature gave no advance indication whatsoever that it wanted state officials to adhere to an earlier deadline at the expense of securing an accurate popular vote count.

    In past elections, other states had taken care to get it right. For example, in the 1960 presidential race between John F. Kennedy and Richard Nixon, Hawaii awarded its electors on January 4, 1961 based on a just-completed recount. These electors were readily accepted two days later in the tabulation of electoral votes.

    In 1960, the people of Hawaii had their say. But in 2000, the Court's conservative majority did not let the people of Florida have theirs.

    Instead, the Five falsely asserted that Florida had imposed a December 12 "safe harbor" deadline in lieu of an accurate vote tabulation. The attribution to Florida officials of this preposterous preference for insulating an inaccurate count from Congressional challenge, we submit, is a clear smoking gun proving the intentional nature of the Five's misrepresentation of Florida's deadline.

    Again, Justice Shaw's reaction is telling. Groping for a benign explanation of what otherwise appeared to be a judicial coup d'etat unprecedented in American history, he wrote that the Five had "confuse[d] apples and oranges"—that they had incorrectly cited in the second (contest phase) case the Florida Supreme Court's discussion of the December 12 "safe harbor" deadline in the first (protest phase) case. Gore v. Harris, 773 So. 2d 524, 528 fn. 12 (December 22, 2000).

    This sort of mix-up simply doesn't happen by accident.

    U.S. Supreme Court justices—among the most intellectually gifted men and women in the United States—do not "confuse apples and oranges" negligently. It would have been obvious to the Five that the Florida Supreme Court's order to commence a careful statewide manual recount on December 8 did not further mandate that recount's hurried completion a mere four days later, on December 12.

    No, the truth is that the Five willfully fixed the outcome of a presidential race in which more than 6 million Floridians and 100 million Americans had participated in good faith and prevented a national election from being concluded in the legally prescribed manner. And this is but one form of gross misconduct by the Five that can be equally substantiated in connection with their handling of Bush v. Gore.

    -Eric C. Jacobson
    Public Interest Lawyer
  • sheltercrow said on Jun 14, 2008....
    A shill is an associate of a person selling goods or services or a political group, who pretends no association to the seller/group and assumes the air of an enthusiastic customer.

    Personally I do not care what you "granted" or what your opinion is.

    "Grow up"? My boy you are a babe in the woods here.
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 14, 2008....
    Now that you've defined shill you must recognize that a Supreme Court that has been packed with conservative judges by Republicans cannot logically shill.  It's like saying Bill Gates is shilling for Microsoft.  It's laughably dumb. 
     
    The point here is that you have no point, you've known for sometime that you have no point but your hoping to win your debate by flooding the arena with stupid bullshit.  Have fun child.
  • sheltercrow said on Jun 14, 2008....
    THE REHNQUIST LEGACY, Craig Bradley, ed., Cambridge University Press, 2005

    One of the key battlefields on which the modern war of federalism has been fought is federal habeas corpus. In the 1960's, led by Justice William J. Brennan, the Supreme Court expanded the availability of federal habeas for convicted state criminal defendants who claimed that their federal constitutional rights had been violated. This expansion was based on Brennan's fundamental distrust of state courts to vindicate federal rights. The practical impact of the expansion was felt most strongly in the special realm of capital cases, where extensive federal habeas review made it difficult for the states to implement the ultimate punishment. As soon as Justice William Rehnquist joined the Court in 1972, he set out to reverse the Brennan-led expansion of federal habeas. Over the course of his career, Rehnquist managed to roll back that expansion in almost every respect. Beginning with Wainwright v. Sykes (1977), which overturned the core of Brennan's famous habeas opinion in Fay v. Noia (1963), Rehnquist gradually succeeded in persuading the Court to adopt a narrower view of the role of the federal courts - one that was more deferential to the state courts, and more protective of the public's interest in punishing criminals. The Rehnquistian vision of limited federal habeas corpus ultimately prevailed on such issues as habeas jurisdiction, the right to counsel, procedural default, the role of actual innocence, harmless error, retroactivity, and the proper standard of review in habeas. The only area where Rehnquist failed to implement his vision of federal habeas was the scope of habeas review, and by the end, this lone failure may not even have mattered very much. Today, the law of federal habeas has returned to the way it was before the 1960's, and the ongoing fight over the death penalty has largely shifted from the federal habeas courts to the broader political and social worlds.
  • sheltercrow said on Jun 14, 2008....
    Whenever you and SMB cannot understand what is being presented you always seem to accuse others of your own ignorance on the issues. Like I've mentioned before intelegence is not one of your finer points.

    You are still a babe in the woods here.
  • sheltercrow said on Jun 14, 2008....
    The fact is that no administration, not even Reagan's, has so depended upon Rehnquist's cumulative legacy of memos, tactics, rulings and protégés as the Bush White House. Touch any live-wire issue and sooner or later the current traces back to his office door. Consider those Florida voters. Decades before the 2000 election, Rehnquist as a politically ambitious lawyer pioneered finely honed challenges to registered African-Americans at Arizona polling places. The excesses of the Patriot Act and John Ashcroft's Justice Department? Follow the line back to the early Nixon Administration, when then-Assistant Attorney General Rehnquist provided the first contemporary legal scaffolding for political surveillance, wiretaps and secret detention plans, and for his later Supreme Court decisions unleashing police powers. Corporate scandals? The Federalist Society, born under Rehnquist's patronage in 1982, produced not just Clarence Thomas but a generation of antiregulatory lawyers brought in by Bush to the Environmental Protection Agency and other agencies. Where did the Bush White House turn to find executive-branch authority for imprisonment and torture in Iraq and Afghanistan? To Rehnquist's 1970 memos in support of the invasion of neutral Cambodia. The pathway to Bush v. Gore was tiled with Rehnquist's briefs, memos and rulings.
  • sheltercrow said on Jun 14, 2008....
    Rehnquist, the ardent political animal, should never have been placed on the supreme court. He actually seems to have lied at his 1971 confirmation hearings. The problems we have today with habeas corpus stem from this right wing lunatic.

    Rehnquist, Like Everyone Else, Spent the Entire ’70s High

    Thursday, January 4th, 2007

    His drug of choice: Placidyl, a “highly toxic” painkiller not meant to be prescribed for long periods of time. Like, say, 1970 through 1981, the amount of time the late Supreme Court Chief Justice spent popping it. Things got a little hairy for Rehnquist, as they did for all the other drug fiends, come the dark days of Reagan: MORE »

    Rehnquist's memorandum argued in favor of upholding the separate but equal doctrine of Plessy v. Ferguson (1896). After completing his clerkship with Jackson, he moved to Phoenix, Arizona, where for sixteen years he practiced law and participated in a variety of local political activities. During those years he appeared as a witness before the Phoenix City Council in opposition to a public accommodations ordinance and took part in a program of challenging voters at the polls. From 1969 until 1971 Rehnquist served as assistant attorney general for the Office of Legal Counsel. In that position, he supported executive authority to order wiretapping and surveillance without a court order, no‐knock entry by the police, preventive detention, and abolishing the exclusionary rule.

    Even Alan Dershowitz knows...

    Justice Stephen Breyer recalled an earlier period of Stanford’s history: “When my father was at Stanford, he could not join any of the social organizations because he was Jewish, and those organizations, at that time, did not accept Jews.” Rehnquist not only benefited in his class ranking from this discrimination; he was also part of that bigotry. When he was nominated to be an associate justice in 1971, I learned from several sources who had known him as a student that he had outraged Jewish classmates by goose-stepping and heil-Hitlering with brown-shirted friends in front of a dormitory that housed the school’s few Jewish students. He also was infamous for telling racist and anti-Semitic jokes.

    As a law clerk, Rehnquist wrote a memorandum for Justice Jackson while the court was considering several school desegregation cases, including Brown v. Board of Education. Rehnquist’s memo, entitled “A Random Thought on the Segregation Cases,” defended the separate-but-equal doctrine embodied in the 1896 Supreme Court case of Plessy v. Ferguson. Rehnquist concluded the Plessy “was right and should be reaffirmed.” When questioned about the memos by the Senate Judiciary Committee in both 1971 and 1986, Rehnquist blamed his defense of segregation on the dead Justice, stating – under oath – that his memo was meant to reflect the views of Justice Jackson. But Justice Jackson voted in Brown, along with a unanimous Court, to strike down school segregation. According to historian Mark Tushnet, Justice Jackson’s longtime legal secretary called Rehnquist’s Senate testimony an attempt to “smear[...] the reputation of a great justice.” Rehnquist later admitted to defending Plessy in arguments with fellow law clerks. He did not acknowledge that he committed perjury in front of the Judiciary Committee to get his job.

    The young Rehnquist began his legal career as a Republican functionary by obstructing African-American and Hispanic voting at Phoenix polling locations (“Operation Eagle Eye”). As Richard Cohen of The Washington Post wrote, “[H]e helped challenge the voting qualifications of Arizona blacks and Hispanics. He was entitled to do so. But even if he did not personally harass potential voters, as witnesses allege, he clearly was a brass-knuckle partisan, someone who would deny the ballot to fellow citizens for trivial political reasons -- and who made his selection on the basis of race or ethnicity.” In a word, he started out his political career as a Republican thug.

    Rehnquist later bought a home in Vermont with a restrictive covenant that barred sale of the property to ''any member of the Hebrew race.”
  • stopmediabias said on Jun 14, 2008....
    "The point here is that you have no point, you've known for sometime that you have no point but your hoping to win your debate by flooding the arena with stupid bullshit."
     
    Sean your wisdom is neverending, this right here describes Sheltercrow to a tee.
     
    Good God why can't this guy just state I agree or I disagree then make a rational point in a paragraph or two.  Trying to debate this guy is like have a homework assignment. 
  • bloc said on Jun 16, 2008....
    what rights should "enemy combatants" have if they don't fall under the geneva conventions? Should they get any due process at all? Should they have any human rights at all? Under what laws?
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 16, 2008....
    New rules need to be made to include them.  This wasn't a situation that was a problem when the GC was written or if it was it wasn't included in the scope of it.  As much as I think the UN is worthless and accomplishes nothing.  I think they are comprable to gun control, the only thing the gauruntee is that the criminals out gun the law abiders.  That said if they want to write up some kind of law for how terrorists are to be dealt with fine.  The same goes for Congress.  Set laws that specifically pertain to the situation at hand, stop trying to stretch current things to cover what they clearly don't.
  • bloc said on Jun 16, 2008....
    well, the supreme court ruling wasn't about the geneva convetions. It was about american law and they got it right.
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 16, 2008....
    Which has strikes me as curious.  They did get American law right, but doesnt' that only applie to Americans, or atleast people here legally?  (I figure if we can get canned for spray painting they can pay a fine for littering)  But does US law logically apply to terrorists?
  • bloc said on Jun 17, 2008....
    "They did get American law right, but doesnt' that only applie to Americans, or atleast people here legally?"

    If they are being held by our government. The idea that we should be able to grab any none american off the street of another country and throw them in prison for life with no real due process is not consistent with my understanding of american law. 
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 17, 2008....
    It doesn't apply to enemy soldiers.
  • bloc said on Jun 17, 2008....
    many of the people in gitmo were not picked up on any battlefield. Please read this for specifics and let me know what you think.
  • bloc said on Jun 17, 2008....
    many of the people in gitmo were not picked up on any battlefield. Please read this for specifics and let me know what you think.
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 17, 2008....
    Yikes.  I think new rules need to be put in place for this situation.  What is happening now doesn't rightly fall under anything that has been covered legally.  A terrorist who isn't literally caught in the act is going to be unarmed so. 
     
    They shouldn't be inprisoned indefinitely without trial or charges.  There need to be rules on how to deal with them.  The ones that are US citizens at least have some grounds to the protections of the Constitution.  (though I'm not sure how many of those protections would actually apply to a traitor which is what they are being accused of and worse.)  They don't fall under the GC (no matter what George Bush may have claimed and then SCOTUS reaffirmed though not in the way he wanted.
     
     
  • bloc said on Jun 17, 2008....
    "though I'm not sure how many of those protections would actually apply to a traitor which is what they are being accused of and worse."

    Well, doesn't the constitution say they have to be proven guilty of those charges first :)


  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 17, 2008....
    True, but we lock up our criminals before they are proven to be guilty.
  • stopmediabias said on Jun 17, 2008....

    Sean-'slap, slap' don't get roped in.  Greenwald makes about as much sense as he always does.

    reality check: these people are foreign terrorists caught on the battlefield, they are designated unlawfull enemy combatants by several different levels of our military.  In otherwards Dick Cheney doesn't walk into Pakistan and point at some shopkeeper and scream "combatant!' then they are shipped off to Gitmo.  There is a process

    Greenwald says:

    "John Yoo defends the right of the Bush administration to imprison people at Guantanamo indefinitely with no judicial review and condemns last week's Supreme Court habeas corpus ruling as "judicial imperialism of the highest order."

    First of all the Detainee Treatment Act (DTA) of 2005 balanced the national security needs with these supposed rights of detainees.  They put in a system in which detainees went through a tribunal then a judicial review at the D.C. Court.  For Greenwald make another accusation that we are imprisoning people indefinitely with no judicial review is a blatent misrepresentation of the facts.

     Secondly Greenwald and these other deranged people seem to think there really isn't a war going on and most of the people are in there for some misunderstanding that can be resolved by all holding hands and singing happy songs.  We all need to take a number of steps back and look at ourselves.

  • bloc said on Jun 17, 2008....
    @sean
    you're misrepresenting the criminal system and you know it. We absolutely do not lock up criminals for 6 years before proving them guilty! We do not execute them before proving them guilty. We do no torture them before proving them guilty.

    "First of all the Detainee Treatment Act (DTA) of 2005 balanced the national security needs with these supposed rights of detainees."

    The supreme court, many military officers, and many others do not believe that the act did provide a real legal process.

    "these people are foreign terrorists caught on the battlefield,"

    I find it funny you say this and fail to address the facts in greenwald's piece. Anyone that reads the piece will realize the reality of the situation. Sean clearly did.
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 17, 2008....
    Like I said the bottom line is that this is a new situation, legally at any rate.  Generally speaking I'm against creating a new law when there is already one in place.  California passed a law against driving while talking on a cell phone, we are in the process of passing one about dogs in your lap while you drive.
     
    There is however already a law on the books about driving while distracted.  Makes the new two laws pointless and redundant.  IMO
     
    Terrorists are enemies of America that much is clear, many are not American.  While the rights in the Constitution are great I don't want Osama getting off because we didn't have a warrent or some such bullshit.  They aren't under the GC as the GC covers lawful enemy combatants which they aren't.
     
     
  • bloc said on Jun 17, 2008....
    i think the assertion that bin laden would get off due to a warrant requirement is a misrepresentation of the reality. It's an exaggeration far beyond what any reasonable person is talking about, and it leaves people to conclude that they should not have due process (which is what the supreme court ruled btw; they didn't say that people in gitmo should have hte same rights as americans).

    This is where I often get frustrated with our conversations. You pull out hypotheticals that have no bearing on what is currently happening. 
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 17, 2008....
    But they came to this conclusion based on what's written in the Consitution, so why wouldn't the rest of it apply equally?
  • bloc said on Jun 18, 2008....
    because it doesn't and they didn't say that it does!
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 18, 2008....
    Based on?
  • stopmediabias said on Jun 18, 2008....

    I didn't read all of Greenwalds piece, just FYI.

    In all of this crap, the reality is on one side we have the enemy sawing off the heads of our innocent people, on the other side we have foreign terrorists and we are giving them habeas corpus rights.  In the eyes of the world Americans look weak in the eyes of Americans liberals look weak, that's it. 

  • bloc said on Jun 18, 2008....
    @sean
    the supreme court ruled that the detainees have habeas rights and have to have a fair hearing. That's all. I think our laws are in pretty bad shape if even people like you think they ruled in favor of crazy extreme nonsense we hear from the deranged right.

    @smb
    obviously you didn't read it. You say these people were picked up on a battlefield so let me quote what you refused to read.

    "Sami al-Haj, the Al Jazeera camerman who was encaged at Guantanamo for years until being recently released, was simply traveling with an Al Jazeera reporter from Pakistan into Afghanistan to cover the U.S. invasion for his news network when he was stopped by a Pakistani immigration officer, turned over to the U.S., kept in an underground Afghan prison for six months, and then basically disappeared off to Guantanamo, where he remained for years"

    "Ali Saleh Kahlah al-Marri -- the computer science graduate student at Bradley University, in the U.S. on a student visa -- was arrested at his home in Peoria, Illinois where he lived with his wife and five children, charged with credit card fraud, only to then have his trial canceled at the last minute by George Bush, who declared him an "enemy combatant" and ordered him into military custody, where he remained for years with no charges."

    "Canadian citizen Maher Arar was also detained at the airport -- on a stop-over at JFK Airport on his way back from a family vacation to his Ottawa home -- and then sent to Syria to be tortured for 10 months, only for it to be discovered thereafter that he was completely innocent, that U.S. officials apprehended the wrong man. German citizen Khaled El-Masri was snatched up while on vacation in Macedonia, accused of being a Terrorist, shipped around to multiple countries, denied access to the outside world, tortured by the CIA for months, only to be released once they realized it was a case of "mistaken identity." And the lead plaintiff in the Supreme Court case, Lakhdar Boumediene, was a Bosnia citizen, living in Bosnia, who was arrested by Bosnian authorities at the request of the Bush administration, investigated, and determined by the Bosnian Supreme Court to be innocent. But upon his being released, U.S. forces inside Bosnia immediately seized him and shipped him to Guantanamo."

    Where is the battlefield again smb?
  • stopmediabias said on Jun 19, 2008....

    All bullshit, every bit of it.  If any of this garbage was even half true they would not be in Gitmo, your missing something.  It says in the decent of the supreme court decision that every person was given an opportunity to question their confinement in front of a tribunel and then these would be reviewed by the DC court.  Not one single petitioner brought forth their client, NOT ONE.

    And good God why do just simply lay right down and believe every piece of crap you read, especially when you here the real or perceived enemys side of the story without even thinking that maybe your own country has a side.  Do you think we like just snatching innocent people of streets and tossing them in jail?  Or could there be classified evidence against these people that you will never here.

    Does Greenwald mention the scum that were released from Gitmo and found to be innocent then went out and butchered more people?

  • bloc said on Jun 19, 2008....
    it is true. If you believe it's bullshit why don't you tell me where you think they captured maher arar or al-marri. You're very good at calling people names, but not very good at dealing with the reality of the situation.
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 19, 2008....
    When trucks can be filled with explosives, planes hijacked or weapons used in a coffee shop where exactly is the battle field?
  • bloc said on Jun 20, 2008....
    this has always been true and we never tried to throw out the constitution before. Also, no one has claimed war powers over the entire globe before. When Britain was fighting the IRA they didn't strip britains of their civil liberties. 

    This disconnect is the problem, and the inconsistencies are transparent to anyone with critical thinking skills. If the entire globe is a battlefield does anyone, including americans, have any civil liberties left? Have the smb's of the world made an honest case to the people about striping them of their rights?

    SMB will tell you that we haven't lost our civil liberties, then he'll tell you that Bush can label anyone an "enemy combatant" and put them in a jail with no real due process rights (even if they are an american), spy on anyone without a warrant, and torture. 

    I'm asking for these people to be honest about the implications of their assertions, and I'll argue that the whole world should not be treated as a battlefield. 
  • stopmediabias said on Jun 23, 2008....
    Bloc- I think President Bush should label you an enemy combatant.  Then you can be with your jiadist friends and talk about how you detest America, what a prick Georgre Bush is, how torture is bad, and how Dick Cheney ass-fingers Arabs while planning another 9/11 so he can attack Iran and steal their gas and oil for his rich oil cronies.
  • SeanRenaud said on Jun 23, 2008....

    As much as you make light of it SMB, what you're talking about is EXACTLY what bloc is concerned about.  Minus the snipe.

     

  • stopmediabias said on Jun 24, 2008....
    Bloc never talks about anything else, just repeats the same things over and over again.  If there is a threat to national security, the President's authority trumps civil liberties.  Bill Clinton did it with Aldrich Ames and it makes sense.  Bloc just wants cast his dark shadow and allude to some grand conspiracy.
  • bloc said on Jun 24, 2008....
    So the President can detain any american citizen without due process if he claims it's for national security? 

    I repeat the same thing because you dodge it over and over again.
  • sheltercrow said on Jun 24, 2008....
    An actuality might be appropriate here but there are none. A debate with SMB is a debate with a worm. I cannot understand why people have to waste time with a professional no-nothing.
  • crybabylu said on Jun 24, 2008....

    Sheltercrow----So, why are you wasting your time? No one says you have to post comments here on this post, or read what anyone else is saying. 

    I didn't invite you to come onto my blog and insult my readers.  You may disagree with SMB, but that doesn't give you any reason to call names. I don't believe for one minute that SMB is a worm or a professional no nothing.

    Have you ever read SMB's blog?  SMB makes some good arguments, and I would appreciate it if you continue to blog here, that you conduct yourself in a more respectful and polite manner.

    Thank you.

  • stopmediabias said on Jun 25, 2008....
    bloc-It is rare but it happens.  What do you do, Mohomad al Jiad who was picked up in Pakistan carring a suicide vest confides to an interogator he knows of an American citizen planning attacks who lives at a certain address.  Authorities track the guy down, discover their is a lot of evidence that shows this guy is a threat to national security, evidence we know we can't use in a civilian court.  So what do you do? 
     
    CB-Thank you, but I like Sheltercrow, every time he speaks it gives me more things to post.
  • bloc said on Jun 25, 2008....
    courts have ways to deal with secret evidence. If you want to throw away the Constitution then be honest about it.
  • stopmediabias said on Jun 27, 2008....
    bloc-Yes they do, and it is what we have in place now.  What bugs me when you say throw away the Constitution, that doesn't answer the question, you can't tell me you see a benefit to mixing civilian courts with international affairs.
  • bloc said on Jun 27, 2008....
    we've always mixed civilian courts with international affairs. 
  • Comment on "Supreme Court Rules Gitmo Detainees Can Use Civilian Courts"


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    Weak on foreign policy, sold out to the nutty left on domestic policy, now lets fuck with national security and have trials for terrorists in federal courts....
    He didn't even try to answer it. What would be your answer? Were we right in dropping the bombs on Japan?...
    The only human being on the planet that can eject a huge turd, yet somehow dupe the media into thinking it's a golden egg that smells like roses....
    How's Obama doing with the economy and his stimulus.......
    Every week, I delve into our local city entertainment/op-ed/newspaper....