• evil_twin said on May 05, 2008....

  That's interesting. They'd probably have to be more specific about what sorts of 'chronic conditions' they're talking about. And the mentally ill thing...does that mean anyone who's been diagnosed with a mental illness? Or just people who are completely insane and hospitalized? If it's the first one, don't feel so bad cause I'd be doomed too.
  
  -evil_twin LA
  

• CreativeWoman said on May 05, 2008....

  et,
  I heard it on the radio.  They didn't go into much detail.  I didn't want to be depressed any more than that, so I didn't turn on any of the news channels.
  
  CW
  

• MissMimi said on May 05, 2008....

  Well, CDub, we can take care of each other then.  I'm riddled with chronic conditions. 
   
  Why do they put crap like this on the news?  Rarely do they tell the whole story and all it does is scare the daylights out of the public.

• nytquill17 said on May 05, 2008....

  The guidelines are hypothetical, i.e. they haven't been adopted yet.  It's sort of a first draft.  Plus in "chronic disease" (and for mental illness, too) what they mean is more a chronic disease in such a serious condition that it reduces your chances for survival anyway and makes it potentially a "waste" (sorry to put it like that) to put medical resources into you.  The article I read only mentioned "poorly controlled diabetes" in that section.
  
  It's not that they want to make sure only the strong survive.  It's that when we have a situation of limited resources (ventilators, certain medicines, doctors), it makes sense to "spend" those resources on people who have a good chance to survive.  Look at it backwards: somebody who's in end-stage kidney failure, for example, who then gets whatever the pandemic is (we'll say flu).  You spend all this non-replacable money, time, and medicine to save them from the flu and they end up dying anyway from kidney failure.  Meanwhile an otherwise healthy person, who would have survived, dies from the flu because you gave medicine to the kidney patient and there wasn't enough left over to save the healthy person.
  
  It's a horrible thing thinking about who has to die.  And it's terrible to be on the list; I don't want to seem callous about it.  It's not fair.  But if a situation like this happens, the fact that it's horrible won't make it un-happen.  We want to save everybody, certainly the doctors do (Hippocratic oath and all) but if a pandemic hits our medical system as it stands, we simply won't be able to - so we need to be sure everybody is on the same page to make the best use of our resources and save the most people.
  

• CayenneMan said on May 05, 2008....

      I believe 40% of the United States population falls in between #1 and #2. Another 30% probably fall into #3 with drug and achohol abuse alone. If a pandemic were ever to hit I bet you would'nt have to look to far to find a Dr. or a lawyer. I'm not kidding .   How are you doing little lady all is well here however astro turf  is  sounding better to me every year. Mother nature sure has her way of keeping me busy.                      

• Keynajo said on May 05, 2008....

  Holy Shit.....Thats cold....

• kunt said on May 05, 2008....

  what's a pandemic?

• curmudgeon said on May 05, 2008....

  This is probably about conservation of resources in a dire emergency.Pandemics can kill off millions of people in a very short period.
   
  If a pandemic were to hit, we'd also have to anticipate losing a number of government officials, doctors and hospital workers, which will leave fewer healthcare professionals to deal with more medical problems.
   
  It's cold, but yes, in that case we would have to prioritize. Save the life of someone who's lived a full life and could live maybe another two years, maybe not even work, or the life of a young person who could potentially work another twenty to thirty years, raise a family and rebuild the society? Most parents would give up their lives to save their children. There's a biological necessity for that.
   
  Sometimes we need to take a step back and realise that we are a part of a much bigger picture.

• Expendable said on May 05, 2008....

  Welcome to the expendables.
   
  It's called triage. You see it on MASH when the wounded come in. ERs do it too. They do the same sorta thing during the flu season when there's not enough vaccine, so they only give it to the elderly and MS patients.
  -ex

• uniquely-ironic said on May 05, 2008....

  I'd probably get treated, but if faced with only having enough "stuff" to treat myself or my child I'd take a pass.  I do understand and agree with the triage system, even if that means I get passed over.
   
  It's disheartening, but if we didn't have medical advances in the first place we'd kind of be looking at the same odds naturally.

• sweet_cookie01 said on May 05, 2008....

  geee... this is so heart breaking... but i do understand where they are coming from... still its so unfair!!!
   
  dont worry we'll sit side by side and laugh till we die!

• wombat said on May 05, 2008....

  I am sad to say I have not been reading your other blog like I had meant to, but I just looked and it looks fantastic.  You have really done well there!
   
  As for the list, I hope it is "hypothetical" as nytquill17 said.  I would lose out on #2.....I imagine.  But then, would they have time to screen me for that in an emergency?
   
  Seriously though, I know how you must feel with a condition that might label you and put you farther on down the line.   Do they mean if you had a medic allert bracelet on that said you had diabetes?  That is way unfair if that was included in the initial response. 

• CreativeWoman said on May 05, 2008....

  Mimi,
  We could take care of each other for sure. :-)  I suppose the scare tactics on the news sell newspapers and push up tv ratings.
  
  nytquill,
  I understand the "why" of the thinking on who to treat.  It's just scary to see myself fall into one of those categories that might be left behind.
  
  CayenneMan,
  I'm sure it would be a chaotic time if it ever did happen.
  
  I think you just need to invest in a small herd of goats for that lawn of yours.  :-)  I guess I'm doing ok.  I need to make it over to your blog.  There's always something there to give me a chuckle.
  
  Keynajo,
  Yes, it kind of is.
  
  kunt,
  It's a fast moving contagious epidemic that will spread world wide if not contained.
  
  curmudgeon,
  I understand the need to look at the bigger picture. The medicine supply will be short I'm sure. No one wants to be left out though.  It's hard to think that your own life might not be as important as the next person's.  We all have a survival instinct.  I'm guessing it could bring out the worst in people if a pandemic ever happened.
  
  Expendable,
  It all makes sense in my head, but not in my heart.
  
  UI,
  I'm sure I would sacrifice myself for someone I loved or even for a child I didn't know.  The difference in that situation would be that it was a choice and not because you were on a list of denial.
  
  sweet cookie,
  In the end, there probably really is no fair way to come to a solution in such a situation. 
  
  wombat,
  Thanks for the compliment on my other blog. I'm trying to grow it big. 
  
  I'm not sure about the diabetic bracelet question.  I don't wear one of them myself.  I do carry a list of my medications in my purse though.
  
  CW
  
  

• nytquill17 said on May 05, 2008....

  CW (and Wombat and ET): The point made in the more detailled article is that they're not talking about people who are diabetic or who have depression or bi-polar or anything else.  What they're talking about are situations that put your survival in question and make you a potential "waste" of resources, i.e. end-stage Alzheimer's, out-of-control diabetes (not just some high blood sugars, but uncontrolled to the point that you could die from it in the near future), advanced heart disease, etc.  In fact the proposed guidelines are very specific and they're not ruling out half the world's population or anything :)
  
  I think it's really important to understand that because the generalized version you heard on the radio could make a lot of people panic and get upset.
  
  So to reiterate, if these guidelines are eventually adopted (and there's a chance they won't be because there are some serious legal and political issues to hash out first), you WON'T be denied treatment just because you are diabetic or have any other chronic disease or mental illness.  You would be refused only your condition was so serious that there was a good chance you would die soon anyway.
  

• CreativeWoman said on May 05, 2008....

  nytquill,
  Thanks for the information.  I hope the plan, if implemented, never has to be tested.  The radio version was very upsetting.
  
  CW
  

• silverwhisper said on May 06, 2008....

  remember, CW: it's radio. it's designed to alarm, not inform, b/c they want to keep you listening.
  
  ed

• quietone said on May 06, 2008....

  I agree with nytquill.  I think its a more serious cronic disease they are referring to CW.  I think we'd skim through.  I do hope we never have to really worry about it though.

• CreativeWoman said on May 06, 2008....

  Ed,
  It did alarm me  I guess I fell for their tactics.
  
  quietone,
  I hope you are right.  :-)  If it did happen, there wouldn't be much we could do about it anyway. 
  
  CW
  

• GrapeKoolaid said on May 06, 2008....

  A 50's style nuclear bunker in every home comes to mind...  Not that it would save us from an actual nuclear blast, or a pandemic, or an army of zombies, but it does lend a bit of peace of mind... 
  
  Contrary to what the chicken littles may tell you, the chances of anything like that happening is pretty slim.  However, investing in something like this is starting to sound better and better... 
  
  
  
  I wanted one just for pranks purposes... I wanted to walk into an airport wearing one holding a test tube filled with a little water plugged with my thumb.
  
  
  Better have a damn good list of demands, though... :)

• CreativeWoman said on May 06, 2008....

  I'm glad you decided against that little prank, Grape.  :-)  Someone might have stomped you into some wine.
  
  CW
  

• Trinov said on May 06, 2008....

  Hi, I saw the article on CNN at some point yesterday.
  
  I'm in Israel and not in the States, so it's not as relevant to me, although I am sure there is something similar here. Triage always sounded horrible to me, but it was the rule in severe situations during wars.
  
  The solution for the 'little guy' and we here, I would asssume, are mostly in that category:not being millionnaires, or polititicians and their entourages, is to take damn good care of ourselves and our families as much as we humanly can.
  
  There is an herb that is grown in the US called Golden Seal. It will cure almost anything if you don't overuse it. (It brought a relative back from a heavy drug overdose he used to try to commit suicide,in about 30 seconds,from a near coma, he was really looking like he was gone, almost no breathing, no pulse), it is anti -bacterial, fungal and even anti-viral. But Myrrh is what is super as anti-viral. Solgar I believe sells both herbs in combinations with astralagus or another good immune sytem herb in capsules. Other vitamin companies have other and similar combinations. Everybody should have some handy.
  
  Homeopathy has arnica and symphytum --arnica is a fast muscle pain killer and also is a healer of muscles, symphytum is a fast tissue and bone healer, they are also very powerful in their original herbal form. Symphytum is comfrey or knitbone as an herb.
  
  There are lots of books out there-written by MD's and also by experienced naturopaths and herbalists and homeopaths--that are meant for us 'little guys' who want to know just enough to help ourselves and our families but do not have the time to study these things in depth.
  
  Having a an effective medicine chest, some good strong bandages, a safe strong pain killer, anti-biotic cremes etc, with the right herbs and homeopathic remedies, a vaporizer, etc could keep us alive without running to hospitals or clinics in pandemic situations--hey people die from hospital nurtured germs in the best of times--let's not be triaged in the first place!
  
  And maybe it is time for neighbors all over the globe to start thinking together about survival--not only trained first aide teams, but food cooperatives, etc. As far as I can see, big government is failing everyone, everywhere. Individuals, families, friendship circles and neighbors may just be the real solution, the way they were in the past.
  
  

• CreativeWoman said on May 06, 2008....

  Trinov,
  I have essential oils here at home.  I reach for them often and I'm sure I would in such a time.  Thank you for bringing up that point.  We really are our own best self defense when it comes right down to it.
  
  CW
  

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