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I came upon an interesting debate with a few friends of mine the other day.  There was a picture of some underaged starlet (not Cyrus) but one of those girls and I looked at her and made some inappropriate comment.  To which the response was dude she's sixteen!  I shruged, my friends and I have had the debate enough times that my shrug is enough to move along.
 
This time I though I added a question.  She has gone through puberty, she appears to be a woman and I reacted to her as a woman.  I'm sorry I don' tbelieve that anybody man or woman checks for ID before deciding if they are attracted to someone.  They might and should before making advancements, but not before deciding if they find somebody attractive.
 
But one of them is dating, and another one of them habitually dates, girls who appear to be underage.  No hips, no tits, very youthful faces.  The kids of people who get carded buying tickets for Rated R movies, and checked again as they walk through the doors because it's hard to fathom that this girl is over seventeen (or twelve if she took out the lip ring)
 
Why is it ok to be attracted to women who appear to be children but not children who appear to be women.  I'm not talking legally, we know the legal answer. 


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Comments

  • curmudgeon said on Apr 29, 2008....
    Personally I think whatever floats your boat, man, just don't verbalize what's on your mind in the wrong company.
     
    I get raked over the coals by my wife now and then because I liked watching Veronica Mars. Just shoot me but I think Kristen Bell is hot.
     
    My wife also digs at me for talking about Elizabeth Rohm's hair whenever she's on Law & Order.
     
    Man - just keep it to yourself.
  • TinSoldier said on Apr 29, 2008....
    Being attracted is one thing. Acting on that attraction is a bit different, since (individual differences aside) we as a society have determined children of that age to be emotionally unready for sex. Not to mention the power differential between a full adult and a pubescent child.

    In a way, even the acceptance of the attraction lowers the stigma attached to acting on those feelings, which is yet another reason why it's less than okay.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 29, 2008....
    But if you are having sex with a woman who has the appearance of a child you're not only attracted your acting on it.
  • TinSoldier said on Apr 29, 2008....
    No, because a woman who may look child like still has the mental acuity of a woman. The knowledge and the maturity that can only come with age.

    Nor is there as big of a power differential between an adult man and an adult woman (regardless of how she looks) and that between an adult man and an adolescent woman (or vice versa).

    So, as you say, you shouldn't have to check someone's ID before being attracted to them, but you should definitely check their ID before actually having sex with them.
  • dailyachesandpains said on Apr 29, 2008....
    Sean, I totally get your last comment here...I think.
    If they look young and they're getting it from the ones that look young (but may possibly be in their 20's) they have a thing for the ones that look like children and could quite possibly go for mid-teens in the future.  Is that what you're saying?
     
    Daily
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 29, 2008....
    My point is that you shouldn't be attracted to one who looks like a child in the first place. 
     
    It does make me question pedos.  I mean real pedos are only attracted to children, they wouldn't bother with a teen star because teen stars aren't children *physically speaking, we aren't talking mentally or legally*
     
    Would they be ok with adult women who just looked like children and never matured physically?
     
     
  • silverwhisper said on Apr 29, 2008....
    dude, what TS said.

    ed
  • dailyachesandpains said on Apr 29, 2008....
    That's a tough one Sean.  If they're physically attracted to girls that look like children, I would think they wouldn't care about age and the pedo thing comes to mind.  Most women women who look like children go to the plastic surgeon to not look like a child anymore. 
     
    I don't know man...
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 29, 2008....
    That was my basic arguement.  Was well you're attracted to her.  "She's 23."  She looks 12.  "So what look at her ID."  Why did you hit on her? "She was drinking beer."
     
    You've got to be kidding?  "Well you though that XXX looked fuckable she was 17!" Atleast she looked like a woman. 
     
    Sadly enough the compromise we came to is that any girl you pick up in an enviroment that expected to be 18+ is fair game.  If a 15 yearold manages to sneak into a college party she's fair game by this insane logic.  However a 40 year old at Pizza PArty is clealry off limits.
     
    People are stupid.
  • TinSoldier said on Apr 29, 2008....
    So, do you feel guilty for feeling the way you did?

    In the end, I say whatever man. Different strokes for different folks. As long as she's both legal and mentally mature enough.

    Daily -- I don't think that "most" women can even afford a plastic surgeon, much less actually go to one.
  • diabolicdame said on Apr 30, 2008....
    A 16 year old is mentally a child.. even though no 16 year would agree to that, its true. So I agree with TinSoldier's first comment.
  • curmudgeon said on Apr 30, 2008....
    What's so very bizarre about this whole age-sex thing is that what 75-100 years ago it wasn't uncommon for kids to marry (meaning, engage in sexual activity)much earlier than they're expected to do now. Among some cultures, people were considered adults (meaning, ultimately, of marriagable age) by the age of 12. In some parts of the world, people still marry in their early teens.
     
    And let's be honest - in our society it's not all that uncommon for kids as young as 11 or 12 to begin having sex. Why else do we teach sex ed in sixth and seventh grade? We don't necessarily want them to have sex, but we can't argue with biology.
     
    Now that we've "progressed", childhood has been extended out to 18 years, beyond if you look at the trend of young people in their twenties who've moved back home after college.
     
    I would think that human "progress" ought to mean earlier independence, not extended dependence. I'm probably wrong in this assumption, but I just wonder how much farther into advanced age the concept of childhood will reach.
     
    I think Sean is feeling the dissonance between female biological-sexual maturity (as it pertains to sexual attraction) and what our social norms say is the appropriate age for sexual activity and attraction. And then of course there's the male-female age difference thing. What's socially appropriate or desirable?
     
    I'm pretty sure he's not talking about eight year olds.
     
    You're not...are you, Sean? jk :-)
  • JadenChurch said on Apr 30, 2008....

    TS:  I know plenty of legal age women who are not mentally mature enough.  Age has nothing to do with it.  But when you talk about being mentally mature enough, what specifically are you talking about, and why do you think it has anything to do with having sex?

    Sean, I think, yet again, you have hit upon the pervasive hypocrisy that exists in this puritanical country.  It wasn't all that long ago in parts of this country where 13 was considered marriagable age.  For some people in Texas, it seems they still do.

    So what changed?  World War 1 came along, then WWII, and suddenly there's this puritanical resurgence in this country.  Can anyone explain why for hundreds (if not thousands) of years we considered girls in puberty marriageable and then suddenly we changed our minds and decided that was just evil?

    I think nature chooses for us when we are ready to have sex, not society.  That is one of the purposes of puberty.  If you're old enough to be interested, then you're old enough to be doing, and there shouldn't be any negative consequences for anyone.  I mean heterosexuals and homosexuals and everythign in between.

    The problem with these young people having sex is with the adults that surround them.  THEY have the problem, and they transmit that problem to the young person, and suddenly their needs and desires are bad.  They're too immature to act on them.

    Why don't we say that they're too immature to feed themselves when they have that need too?

    It's like those teachers in Florida, female teachers who got caught having sex with teenage boys.  Everyone talked about the damage done them, how they'll need therapy and all this shit.  Let me tell you something...  As someone who was once a teenage boy who spent many a masturbatory fantasy lusting after a teacher or two, had I had a hottie teacher come on to me and have sex with me when I was 14 or 15, I would not need therapy!  I'd have a permanent grin on my face that would turn me into a man!  Any damage that gets done is done by the parents and other adults that supposedly "care" for that child.

    I think this country needs to grow the fuck up and stop projecting your own fears and insecurities about sex onto your children.

  • dailyachesandpains said on Apr 30, 2008....
    Tin:  I'm the only woman that I know personally IRL that has real boobs.   Well, other than my Mom and Aunts. 
     
    A friend of mine financed hers at a horrid rate of 15% for 4 years (10 years ago) !!!  They're paid for now, but that's worse than a credit card rate for an 18 year old!  Actually, she just went for an upgrade a couple of years ago...not to go bigger, but to get a replacement for the more "natural" looking ones.
     
    Daily
     
     
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 30, 2008....
    Of course I'm not talking about 8 year olds.  I also hadn't made the argument about the past, but that's because I don't believe that just becaus esomething was done has any bearing on wether or not we should do it.  I'm glad I'm not the only person who's sane cus sometiems I do feel that way.
     
    No I don't feel guilty, I didn't know how old she was at the moment, even  if I did I'm not going to break the law over it.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 30, 2008....
    Of course I'm not talking about 8 year olds.  I also hadn't made the argument about the past, but that's because I don't believe that just becaus esomething was done has any bearing on wether or not we should do it.  I'm glad I'm not the only person who's sane cus sometiems I do feel that way.
     
    No I don't feel guilty, I didn't know how old she was at the moment, even  if I did I'm not going to break the law over it.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 30, 2008....
    Of course I'm not talking about 8 year olds.  I also hadn't made the argument about the past, but that's because I don't believe that just becaus esomething was done has any bearing on wether or not we should do it.  I'm glad I'm not the only person who's sane cus sometiems I do feel that way.
     
    No I don't feel guilty, I didn't know how old she was at the moment, even  if I did I'm not going to break the law over it.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 30, 2008....
    Of course I'm not talking about 8 year olds.  I also hadn't made the argument about the past, but that's because I don't believe that just becaus esomething was done has any bearing on wether or not we should do it.  I'm glad I'm not the only person who's sane cus sometiems I do feel that way.
     
    No I don't feel guilty, I didn't know how old she was at the moment, even  if I did I'm not going to break the law over it.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 30, 2008....
    Of course I'm not talking about 8 year olds.  I also hadn't made the argument about the past, but that's because I don't believe that just becaus esomething was done has any bearing on wether or not we should do it.  I'm glad I'm not the only person who's sane cus sometiems I do feel that way.
     
    No I don't feel guilty, I didn't know how old she was at the moment, even  if I did I'm not going to break the law over it.
  • curmudgeon said on Apr 30, 2008....
    Jaden - we all have to deal with the consequences of teenagers making decisions. Driving drunk, drug addiction, running up the cell phone bill, having sex - teenagers don't operate in a vaccuum. Their actions affect their families, their friends and the community around them.
     
     It would be one thing if they made adult decisions and were held solely accountable for those decisions, but because we consider them children, we have both the right and the responsibility to guide their decision making process.
  • JadenChurch said on Apr 30, 2008....

    Curmudgeon:

    That's exactly my point.  The problem is with the adults that surround them.

  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 30, 2008....
    I don't disagree with anything that Cur has said.  Which is odd.
     
    I also find it very troubling that legally it is impossible for a fifteen year old to understand the consequences of sex.  They are never mature enough.
     
    But if said same fifteen year old murders somebody, well then we take the time to get to know them and find out if they knew what they were doing, because if they did we'll try them as an adult. 
  • thunderpussy said on Apr 30, 2008....
    You are disgusting.Shut the fuck up ass hole sucker!
  • JadenChurch said on Apr 30, 2008....
    The age of consent ABSOLUTELY should be lowered to 15-16!
     
    So should the age of majority!
     
    Kids are much more worldly and mature nowadays.
  • starchini said on Apr 30, 2008....
    I think it is sick to be attracted to a woman that has the appearance of a child...that is why i never understood the asian attraction...they all look like they are 11 years old.  I do however understand being attracted to a child that looks like a woman...for obvious reasons...U shouldnt act on it offcourse but its ok to think a 10 year old with the bod of Mariah Carey is hot....as long as u dont have sex with her : )  I was 12 when i started getting attention from older men...i developed very early.  It wasnt their fault...i was hot... they didnt know i was 12-14...
  • mobil said on Apr 30, 2008....
    We had a saying when I was a teen; If they are old enough to bleed, they're old enough to butcher. Sounds rather coarse now doesn't it?
     
    I was at my grandkids soccer game last Saturday, there was a girl laying on her back in the grass. I was looking at her, was thinking the things a man thinks when he sees a shapely female. That was it, I thought no more about it until Monday. I heard my wife and daughter talking. As usual I pay little attention to them when they talk.
     
    But, I heard my daughter say; L thought she was 18. L is my daughter's husband. This perked up my ears, and I joined the conversation. I said; thought who was 18? They were talking about this girl that I was looking at. She's twelve, I shit you not, this girl "I" was looking at was TWELVE years old. Kinda set me back on my heels, she sure as hell didn't look.....she looked much older.
     
    What's my point? I have none.
  • one_wired_kitty said on Apr 30, 2008....
    I kind of understand the appearances-can-be-decieving thing. I was mistaken for a 19 year old at 13.
  • JadenChurch said on Apr 30, 2008....
    With respect, I don't see why this vexes people so.
     
    Evolution built us so that we would be drawn to the strongest and healthiest among us.
     
    Someone just coming into sexual maturity fits the bill exactly, in evolutionary terms.  Look at the animal world, you see the same thing.  Don't forget, we humans ARE animals...  but with the illusion of civilization.
     
    I know you don't like that, but complain to the manufacturer!  :-)
  • travelr712 said on Apr 30, 2008....
    in the biblical story, mary was 13 when she conceived christ. by our standards, that makes god a pedophile.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 30, 2008....
    Not that I'm debating this but I don't remember Mary's age ever being specified in the Bible.
     
    Once you've past puberty people who want you are no longer pedos anyway.
  • travelr712 said on Apr 30, 2008....
    i could go back over all the evidence of mary's age sean, but i've done it more times than i care. suffice it to say, if you will, that most biblical scholars and pastors agree on that fact.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 30, 2008....
    Ok.  Once again I know that via social norms of the time there is no reason to think she wasn't 13.  I was only saying that I can't recall it anywhere and I was curious if it was in one of those verses that I glossed over because it started with somebody begat someone else.
  • travelr712 said on Apr 30, 2008....
    i'm sorry if that sounded harsh sean, i didn't mean it to. it does not state her age anywhere in the text. however, the actual word used in context of her was not 'virgin', it was more literally 'young woman', or in their context of usage, 'girl'. but then, nothing in that document can be proven or disproven, so in the end it doesn't really matter anyway.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 30, 2008....
    No it doesn't matter.  you didn't sound harsh Imight be an atheist but I am curious and if you've read other posts of mine I'm not at all ignorant of the Bible so when somebody throws something out there that I've never heard or considered I question.  No harm no foul.
  • TinSoldier said on Apr 30, 2008....
    Jadenchurch wrote:
    TS:  I know plenty of legal age women who are not mentally mature enough.  Age has nothing to do with it.  But when you talk about being mentally mature enough, what specifically are you talking about, and why do you think it has anything to do with having sex?

    Age certainly does have something to do with it. Just because some people above a certain age are still not emotionally ready for sex in no way implies that people below that age are.

    The hypocrisy that I see is turning children into sex objects, not in denying them the "right" to be sexual.

    I think that our current view of childhood began more in Victorian times and at the beginning of the industrial revolution than in the early- and mid-twentieth centuries. And I don't have a problem with that.

    In fact, I see it somewhat as progress.

    I think that the reports of people getting married younger than fifteen or so in the past have probably been grossly exaggerated.
  • hotaka said on Apr 30, 2008....
    Looking at mobil's comment it reminds me of a comment I once heard. "If there's grass on the field, play ball!"

    Also, starchini, commented about Asian women and that they all look 11 years old. Well, they do tend to look younger than their true age but not that young! My wife is 33 but often mistaken for mid to late twenties. A lot of women I have known in Japan look like they are in their early twenties when they are actually in their late twenties. But the only ones I know who look 11 are the ones who are. Conversely, I guessed a Russian girl was 24 when actually she was 14!

    Speaking of 14, in Brazil that's the legal age I have heard.

    But on to the question, keeping in mind the number of child beauty pagents and events have children made up to look ten years older (not that they attract me, I just think it's interesting that societies who try to protect children from lecherous pedophiles will dress up their kids and parade them around as young adults thus inviting the demons they wish to ward off). If you see a girl or a woman and she looks good to you then that is either thanks to nature or a skill with make up and fashion. If she turns out to be 14 well then just keep your distance. Remember there are men in this world who also dress up as women and some of them do a fantastic job of deceiving (based on photos I have seen on the Net and not personal experience). Attraction is natural. Age of consent is legal (see Brazil comment). But many 16 year-olds I have known are not mature enough to engage in the procreation process anyway (though I can understand the temptation caused by hormones).

    When I was 12 I liked a girl who was tall, had hips and her breasts were starting to grow. She was pretty hot for a girl of my age, I thought. Then I found out she was two and a half years younger than me!
  • JadenChurch said on Apr 30, 2008....

    >>The hypocrisy that I see is turning children into sex objects, not in denying them the "right" to be sexual.<<

    I agree.  And I did not intend to suggest that anyone being forced to do anything aginst their will was somehow of value, because I strongly reject that notion.

    But when we're talking about "Having Sex with Minors" my assumption is consensual sex.

    I disagree with the notion that a 13-17 year old person isn't emotinally capable of appreciating the consequences of leading a lifestyle that includes sexual activity.  While they clearly are not as sophisticated about adult relationships as any of the 40-year-olds on here, I don't think they are so incompetent about it that they should be denied the right to a sexual life, irrespective of whether that is with other teenagers or with people over the age of 18.

    That was my point, and I want to make sure that's clear. 

    I don't disagree with you on the issue of consent, at all.

  • JadenChurch said on Apr 30, 2008....

    Hotaka, you make a very good point about the sexualization of children via beauty pageants.

    That is a profound contradiction to the notion that young people should not be sexual.

  • JadenChurch said on Apr 30, 2008....

    As I read back, I realize that what I'm saying may not be clear yet.

    I'm speaking from the aspect that the law presupposes that a person under the age of 18 "doesn't have the capability to consent because they cannot appreciate the consequences of that consent."

    I'm suggesting that the only reason they are not able to appreciate those consequences is because they've never been allowed to be involved with them (openly), except accidentally, and then it's too late.

    See, I don't think kids that age are emotionally ready to deal with the horrors of high school, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't go.  But just because they are not necessarily emotionally ready doesn't mean they shouldn't experience it.  No one (on their first marriage) is ready for the intensity that is divorce, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't experience it, learn from it, and improve their life as a result.  Does that make sense to you?

    After all, it is with what challenges us that we learn lasting lessons.  If they're never given the opportunity to learn any adult lessons at the age when they are most susceptible to that learning, then how can we complain that they make mistakes about those issues?

    I say give them more credit than your parents gave you, it can only yield healthier, wiser people.  :-)

  • JadenChurch said on May 01, 2008....

    Speaking of the Devil...

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080501011134AAef2Ms&r=w

  • SeanRenaud said on May 01, 2008....
    Half the people on that link are idiots and think a pedophile would bother with at 16 year old girl.  So I pretty much discredit it based on the fac that everybody commenting on it is obviously an idiot.  You previous post about people not learning because they are never afforded the opportunity is spot on though.
  • hotaka said on May 01, 2008....
    Just a thought perhaps others expressed (JadenChurch maybe said so). With sexual freedom comes sexual responsibility. That means being responsible for your actions sexual too. Many people are not good at being responsible for their actions. So maturity of mind is just as or even more important than maturity of body.
  • BADDA_BING said on May 05, 2008....
    If an adult did the deed with my 16 year old child I would do my best to put him or her in prison
  • SeanRenaud said on May 06, 2008....
    Why not if it wasn't an adult.  It's not any less illegal for a 15 year old to do the deed with your 16 year old than if it was a 70 year old.
  • SeanBUGGERrenaud said on May 06, 2008....
    I,m talking to myself with a real brain.I must a PEDO to feel like you know I do about kids. Put the evil sean in prison and watch a BUTT BOY emerge.Just bring him VASOLINE
  • SeanBUGGERrenaud said on May 07, 2008....

    The world agrees. Mr. Policeman is KA-nockin at the door. Grab my *Vasoline please!(*trade mark)

    Call me *Mr. Pedo.

  • MOON_UNIT said on May 07, 2008....
    Hmmmm?
  • StupidGenius said on May 11, 2008....

    In the U.K as a Sixteen year old you can legally do the following;

    Leave home and live independently with permission from parents but very often its not enforced.
    Claim social security benefits (if you are eligible for them)
    Work full-time if you have officially left school (you will also pay tax on your earnings)
    Be paid the Minimum Wage
    Get married with your parents or carers consent
    Join the Armed Forces with parents permission
    Legally have sex (Both boys and girls must be over 16 before they can legally have sex. A male may consent to a homosexual act if he and his partner are aged 16 or above)
    Ride a moped of up to 50ccs
    Have an abortion without parental consent
    Apply for your own passport
    Pilot a glider
    Smoke but not buy tobacco products.

    However, they are not considered mature enough to

    wait for it........

    VOTE?

    You may find the following link of interest, they deal with the whole "age of consent" etc

    http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm

    SG

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