• curmudgeon said on Apr 20, 2008....

  Bloc - that's all well and good. I say you have the freedom to put humans before YOUR money.
   
  If you want to spend your money insuring someone else's kids, please by all means go ahead and do so. Make that lifetime commitment to them, pay their bills no matter what. Why rope the rest of us into financing  what you take to be an issue that touches your value system?
   
  I have no illusions that if we pull out of Iraq somehow the money we're spending on the military will all of a sudden shift to civilian health insurance. That's fanciful.
   
  If anything, what will happen in the coming year is that, if the election turns out a certain way, we will continue with the war, and attempt some form of universal health insurance plan. Taxes will probably be raised.
   
  It seems to me that we can afford both, but that doesn't necessarily mean we ought to fund either.

• bloc said on Apr 20, 2008....

  "I have no illusions that if we pull out of Iraq somehow the money we're spending on the military will all of a sudden shift to civilian health insurance. That's fanciful."
  
  
  Very true, what I was saying is that we should leave Iraq so we don't bankrupt our country. D6 then asked my why I put money before the people of Iraq. If we are going to put people first, why not americans?
  
  
  "Taxes will probably be raised."
  
  
  This will happen no matter what due to the debt the Bush admin has run up. Or we'll bankrupt our government.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

• curmudgeon said on Apr 20, 2008....

  "we'll bankrupt our government"

  If that happens so much of the world will be dragged down with us, it's in everyone else's interests to keep us afloat, too. We can think of our debts as a burden on our children, but what's also happening is that other countries are puming cash into our economy so that we might not crash.

  Because when we average Americans stop spending money, so many many many people around the world will find themselves out of work.

  We all have a vested interest in seeing that this doesn't happen.

   

• bloc said on Apr 20, 2008....

  yes, but other countries don't have infinite resources either. And, we are becoming less important around the world. In the end we shouldn't borrow trillions for a war that doesn't make sense with the hope that other countries will bail us out. 

• mobil said on Apr 20, 2008....

  "In the end we shouldn't borrow trillions for a war that doesn't make sense with the hope that other countries will bail us out."
   
  In the end, we shouldn't leave what we've begun, Iraq will fester like an unattended wound. A gash that will cost us more money and more lives than you are apparently able to imagine.
   
  Lets finish this thing.

• bloc said on Apr 20, 2008....

  "Iraq will fester like an unattended wound"
  
  
  I think it will do this even if we stay. 
  
  
  "A gash that will cost us more money and more lives than you are apparently able to imagine."
  
  
  You mean like the Reagan administrations support of Saddam Hussein?
  
  
  What does it mean to "finish this thing"? Is there any point at which you believe the cost is too high to stay?

• kelly said on Apr 20, 2008....

  "Lets finish this thing."
  
  
  I'm betting you don't have a tenable definition of "finish."

• Lucytorial said on Apr 21, 2008....

  I completely agree with you bloc, and it isn't just the US, its Australia as well, and although we're pulling out certain aspects of our SAS teams there its an enormous amount of money considering aspects of our society are in much greater need, our health care is screwed...
  
  However there is one thing that bothers me in this is that the US played itself to be to the rest of the world in the right, the do gooder, those that will make it all better when in reality it isn't, the US is not gonna want to be accountable for that in the long run, what government would bow to the pressure of starting something it didn't finish and in the end sending itself bankrupt with more social problems that it can handle...
  
  Double edged sword, sometimes you gotta finish what you start and take it in the ass, other times its better to pull out quick before the sow gets pregnant with a littler it can't feed.
  
  
  

• lfbno7 said on Apr 21, 2008....

  I'm with Kelly on this. How does one define "finish this thing" when applied to Iraq? As I've posted before, when do we know it is finished? What is our goal? Why are we there? What do we hope to accomplish? Originally we were told by the idiot that we were there because of weapons of mass destruction, period. That reason is kaput, and yet we have never been given another reason for being there. So - why are we there, and when can we leave?

• travelr712 said on Apr 21, 2008....

  the real goal of iraq was, is, and will be to have an american military base perminantly placed in the middle east, just as they have been placed in europe, asia, et. al. this is what those trillions of dollars are buying us, and it will be the goal, no matter who wins the next election.

• crybabylu said on Apr 21, 2008....

  Sorry, I might be back later, if I can quit laughing!

• mobil said on Apr 21, 2008....

  "Let's finish this thing"

   

  Who said that? Let's see, to my way of thinking, finishing this thing would require pulling about a hundred thousand sailors and airmen out of their ranks and putting them in the Army or Marine Corps. We need a troop surge, yes, a two hundred thousand man troop surge. First stabilize Iraq, torture, we're going to have to torture lots of people

   

  Let's get some of these Momma's boys off the streets too. Re- implement the draft, draft lets say two million swinging dicks. Keep the all volunteer forces in the forefront, use the draftees as needed. Make real men out of the best of them.

   

  Ok, ya following me here? We might need a few more million young men ( I haven't done the math) Lets finish this thing, bomb, then invade Iran, bomb and invade Syria. Of course someone's going to have be start making bombs.

   

  Now, we're gonna need some help, I can't think of a better partner than Israel. That's how you finish this thing you fucking girly boys ! Oh yeah, torture, we're going to want to torture. We'll need a torture amendment to the Constitution.

• bloc said on Apr 21, 2008....

  sounds like finishing this thing means perpetual war. I think I'll pass. 

• mobil said on Apr 21, 2008....

  We can't finish this if we don't do it from a position of strength. Of course I was ribbing you about the torture, you knew that right?
   
  The Third World War will begin in the Middle East, I think we need to re-shape it now, that's all.

• bloc said on Apr 21, 2008....

  i'm worried that if we try to impose our will on others it will lead to WW3. Especially if we do it in an incompetent way. At this point I have no confidence in the bush admin to do anything right. 
  
  
  yes, I knew you were kidding about the torture :)

• mobil said on Apr 21, 2008....

  Ok, the difference is I have all the confidence in the world in Bush, some of this has been handle badly to say the least. For one, we needed a bigger army to handle the job on  the ground there after we first kicked their butts. Should have had a half a million troops in there. We need the draft.

• bloc said on Apr 21, 2008....

  "Should have had a half a million troops in there."
  
  
  And the Bush admin forced out the general that said this at the time. 

• mobil said on Apr 21, 2008....

  Well, ain't none of us perfect. I think Rummy fucked things up in the aftermath. But I wasn't on the inside of all that and don't really know.

• kelly said on Apr 21, 2008....

  "I think Rummy fucked things up in the aftermath."
  
  
  No.  He screwed it up from the very beginning and then was free to walk away from it.  The people that should end up swinging from the yard arm are never the ones to actually be swinging from the yard arm.

• silverwhisper said on Apr 22, 2008....

  that's easy, helping americans. will try to return later to discuss this in more depth.
  
  ed

• sheltercrow said on Apr 23, 2008....

  D6 relies almost exclusively on lobby disinformation for his brilliant epiphanies. A tome of wisdom he has never been.
  
  With respect of course.
  
  And this, to be fair, could only come from a completely corrupt mind.
  
  "when do people become valuable enough in your view, to become worth more than money?"
  
  I have gazed on a garden salad that made more sense then this.

• sheltercrow said on Apr 23, 2008....

  
  For SW, you know you want it.

  "I have no illusions that if we pull out of Iraq somehow the money we're spending on the military will all of a sudden shift to civilian health insurance. That's fanciful."
  
  curm: No matter what happens, leaving Iraq will not allow monies spent their to make a "sudden shift" anywhere. It was all borrowed and will then have to be paid back. Heads you lose, tails you lose.
  
  Lucy: you confuse this bush junta with "the US"
  
  To get an understanding about the reigning neocon politics here in the good ole U.S. you merely have to read the white papers that are available at any of the neocon think tanks.
  
  I did a post at another board and had to ask what the rest of the users were afraid to ask. What organizations do the neocon War Hawks belong to? Answer that question and you have your answer.

• D6fer said on May 01, 2008....

  oh how did I miss this?! Once again I have the honor of being the subject (part of) a post!
  Sheltercrap.....what rock have you been hiding under? I thought you got kicked out of here for plagiarizing some dipshit liberal big time blogger! Nice to see you back...I miss your cool graphics!
  
  

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