sheltercrow's tags:


This post is for those that are concerned that all remarks not directly addressing Zionist Trolls should be placed in a thread specifically concerned with Zionism and Zionists.

Since we must start with something I have place the Wikipedia references to Zionism as the base material.

Zionism is an international political movement that originally supported the reestablishment of a homeland for the Jewish People in Palestine (Hebrew: Eretz Yisra'el, “the Land of Israel”), and continues primarily as support for the modern state of Israel.

Although its origins are earlier, the movement was formally established by the Austro-Hungarian journalist Theodor Herzl in the late 19th century. The movement was eventually successful in establishing Israel in 1948, as the world's first and only modern Jewish State. Described as a "diaspora nationalism," its proponents regard it as a national liberation movement whose aim is the self-determination of the Jewish people.

While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, where the concept of Jewish nationhood is thought to have first evolved somewhere between 1200 BC and the late Second Temple era (i.e. up to 70 AD), the modern movement was mainly secular, beginning largely as a response by European Jewry to antisemitism across Europe. It constituted a branch of the broader phenomenon of modern nationalism. At first one of several Jewish political movements offering alternative responses to the position of Jews in Europe, Zionism gradually gained more support, and after the Holocaust became the dominant Jewish political movement.

History of Zionism: From Wikipedia

Timeline of Zionism: From Wikipedia

Timeline of Jewish history: From Wikipedia

World Zionist Organization: From Wikipedia

Since the first century CE most Jews have lived in exile, although there has been a constant presence of Jews in the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel). According to Judaism, Eretz Israel, or Zion, is a land promised to the Jews by God according to the Bible. Following the 2nd century Bar Kokhba revolt, Jews were expelled from Palestine to form the Jewish diaspora. In the nineteenth century a current in Judaism supporting a return grew in popularity. Even before 1897, which is generally seen as the year in which practical Zionism started, Jews immigrated to Palestine, the pre-Zionist Aliyah.

Jewish immigration to Palestine started in earnest in 1882. The so-called First Aliyah saw the arrival of about 30,000 Jews over twenty years. Most immigrants came from Russia, where anti-semitism was rampant. They founded a number of agricultural settlements with financial support from Jewish philanthropists in Western Europe. The Second Aliyah started in 1904. Further Aliyahs followed between the two World Wars, fueled in the 1930s by Nazi persecution.

In the 1890s Theodor Herzl infused Zionism with a new and practical urgency. He brought the World Zionist Organization into being and, together with Nathan Birnbaum, planned its First Congress at Basel in 1897. This current in Zionism is known as political Zionism because it aimed at reaching a political agreement with the Power ruling Palestine. Up to 1917 this was the Ottoman Empire, and then until 1948 it was Britain on behalf of the League of Nations. The WZO also supported small scale settlement in Palestine.

Lobbying by Chaim Weizmann (cultural Zionists) and others culminated in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 by the British government. This declaration endorsed the creation of a Jewish Homeland in Palestine. In 1922, the League of nations endorsed the declaration in the Mandate it gave to Britain:

The Mandatory (…) will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

A short history of Zionism

Palestinian Arabs resisted Zionist migration. There were riots in 1920, 1921 and 1929, sometimes accompanied by massacres of Jews. Britain supported Jewish immigration in principle, but in reaction to Arab violence imposed restrictions on Jewish immigration.

The1936-1939 Arab revolt in Palestine led the British to establish the Peel Commission to investigate the situation. The commission called for a two-state solution and compulsory transfer of populations. This solution was rejected by the British and instead the White Paper of 1939 proposed an end to Jewish immigration by 1944, with a further 75,000 to be admitted by then. In principle, the British stuck to this policy until the end of the Mandate.

After WWII and the Holocaust, support for Zionism among Jews and Gentiles increased. The British, were attacked in Palestine by Zionist groups because of restrictions on Jewish immigration, the best known attack being the 1946 King David Hotel bombing. Unable to resolve the conflict, the British referred the issue to the newly created United Nations.

In 1947, the UNSCOP recommended the partition of western Palestine into a Jewish state, an Arab state and a UN-controlled territory (Corpus separatum) around Jerusalem. This partition plan was adopted on November 29th, 1947 with UN GA Resolution 181, 33 votes in favor, 13 against, and 10 abstentions. The vote itself, which required a two-third majority, was a very dramatic affair and led to celebrations in the streets of Jewish cities.

The Arab states rejected the UN decision, demanding a single state with an Arab majority. violence immediately exploded in Palestine between Jews and Arabs. On 14 May 1948, at the end of the British mandate, the Jewish Agency, led by Ben-Gurion declared the creation of the State of Israel and the same day, the armies of four Arab countries invaded Palestine.

During the following eight months, Israel forces defended the Jewish partition and conquered portions of the Arab partition, enlarging its portion to 78 percent of mandatory Palestine. The conflict led to an exodus of about 711,000 Arab Palestinians, of whom about 46.000 were internally displaced persons in Israel. The war ended with the 1949 Armistice Agreements, which included new cease-fire lines, the so-called Green line.

After the war the Arabs continued to reject Israel's right to exist and demanded that it retreat to the 1947 partition lines. They sustained this demand until 1967 when the rest of western Palestine was conquered by Israel during the Six-Day War, after which Arab states demanded that Israel retreat to the 1949 green line, the only "borders" currently recognized by the international community. These borders are commonly referred as the "pre-1967 borders". The border with Egypt was legalized in the 1979 Egyptian-Israeli Peace Treaty, and the border with Jordan in the 1994 Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace.

After the creation of the State of Israel the WZO continued to exist as an organisation dedicated to assisting and encouraging Jews to migrate to Israel, as well as providing political support for Israel.



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Comments

  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    cotterall&elaineadams

    That is racist and anti-Semitic.  I am tired of the anti-Israeli sentiment.  There is no way that Israel can make peace with Hamas and the P.L.O.  It is sad that Palestinians live under occupation but they are not interested in creating their own homeland, just destroying Israel. Remember people said that Hitler wasn't a threat and how did that go?  (Usually left-wing fanatics at colleges such as Columbia).  Now they claim that Iran is not a threat.... (I was against the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, the bombing of Somalia, etc.) so I am not a warmongerer but every country has a right to self-defense.

    Let's get rid of the P.C. leftist garbage and consider that you either side with the Israelis or the terrorists.  I side with Israel not because I oppose a Palestinian homeland but because of terrorism, the desire to destroy it through militancy, the election of militants, suicide bombings and Abbas' attempts to destroy them democratically through the right of return for refugees.  There were 850,000 Jewish refugees from Arab lands who never get mentioned as refugees (apparently only Palestinians matter when it comes to this--to put it bluntly, they created the problem themselves and the countries they live in refuse to absorb them or send them elsewhere such as Jordan or Morocco, that is not the fault of Israel).  Also, nobody tells them to avoid birth control and abortion.  The women have little status in Islam and don't use P.C. rhetoric to suggest otherwise--it is in the Koran and Islamic law.  It is documented.  I have met descendants of Middle Eastern Muslims who tell me that they are shocked at how women are treated in those societies and that they think that peace with Israel is best for everyone because there will be less terrorism for everyone, pointing out that people get sucked in and they are tired of their own people going for that and not focusing on developing their own countries.  There are people in the Middle East who favor peace with Israel and understand their right to self-defense.  People in Tunisia, Egypt, Morocco and other countries are tired of militants.  Even Kaddafi started taking a hard line on militants and religious extremists.  The West is no different in refusing to let these people immigrate.  Europe is now swarmed. 

    It doesn't work.  There weren't a moderate number coming over to integrate.  Now there is mass immigration and multiculturalism to put us in our place for pointing out that it is wrong to let massive numbers of illegals and false refugees immigrate and receive welfare while students live in poverty and they don't work, integrate and get along with the majority.  It is time to remember that Israel belongs to Israelis, Sweden belongs to the Swedish, the Netherlands to the Dutch, Italy to the Italians, etc.
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    lfbno7

    Ahmad Nasser, former Secretary of the Palestinian Legislative Council, on PA (Palestinian Authority) TV, February 6, 2004, stated the following as quoted by Palestinian Media Watch:

    "Israel was established on the basis of theft. The State of Israel is Satan's offspring - a satanic offspring. It was founded on theft from the first moment. It was founded on the basis of robbery, terror, killing, torture, assassination, death, stealing land and killing people and will continue this way, never able to exist because its birth was unnatural, a satanic offspring, and cannot exist among human beings...

    It cannot exist naturally, like other nations in this world." 2/6/04 Ahmad Nasser

    Khaled Meshal, the chairman of Hamas political bureau, quoted by Ha'aretz online 5/3/06 said in a visit to Moscow:

    "We [Hamas] believe that Israel has no right to exist." 5/3/06 Khaled Meshal

    Imam Achmad Cassiem, National Chairperson of the South African Islamic Unity Convention, in a 5/23/02 speech given on Radio 786 (a Muslim community radio station in Cape Town, South Africa), stated:

    "Our position is that even if the Zionist State [Israel] is the size of a postage stamp it has no right to exist. Occupied Palestine must be decolonized, deracialized and restored to the Palestinian people as a single sovereign state. In plain English, the Zionist State must be dismantled." 5/23/04 Achmad Cassiem

    Neturei-Karta, an Orthodox Jewish group, in a 6/9/95 New York Times advertisement entitled "What About the Ten Rhetorical Questions?" stated the following:

    "All Palestine should be returned to the Palestinians and other occupied lands should be returned to their owners. And the Zionist enterprise should cease to exist. Only then will the misery wrought by Zionism disappear." 6/9/95 Neturei-Karta

    Ibrahim Mudayris, Head of the Association for Memorizing the Quran, PA Ministry of Endowments and Religious Affairs, on PA TV, May 13, 2005 stated the following:

    "This Naqba ['Catastrophe'] is the worst day of remembrance for the Palestinian people ... because with the loss of Palestine, the Arab nation was lost, and with the establishment of the false state of Israel, the whole Muslim nation was lost... He who says that the Jews have any right over this land - besides being occupiers - is a liar, and they will disappear." 5/13/05 Ibrahim Mudayris.
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    crybabylu

    I say DITTO to everything lfbno7 just said!
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    lfbno7

    From Wikipedia, some quotes:

    Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin of the Gaza wing of the Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada. Best known for multiple suicide bombings and other attacks[4] directed against civilians and Israeli military and security forces targets, Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel.

    Khaled Mashal declared that Hamas would stop armed struggle against Israel if it recognized the 1967 borders, withdrew itself from all Palestinian occupied territories (including the West Bank and East Jerusalem) and recognized Palestinian rights that would include the "right of return".

    Hamas does not recognize Israel as a sovereign state, unlike the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), which has recognized it since 1988, and calls it the "Zionist entity". Its charter calls for an end to Israel. During the election campaign, Hamas did not mention its call for the destruction of Israel in its electoral manifesto.[36] But several Hamas candidates insist that the charter is still in force and often called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" in campaign speeches.

    They talk out of both sides of their mouths, but the truth is here.
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    crybabylu

    We're Marching To Zion

    Isaac Watts Robert Lowry
    Come, we that love the Lord, and let our joys be known
    Join in a song with sweet accord, join in a song with sweet accord
    And thus surround the throne, and thus surround the throne

    Chorus
    We're marching to Zion, Beautiful, beautiful Zion
    We're marching upward to Zion, the beautiful city of God

    Let those refuse to sing who never knew our God
    But children of the heav'nly King, but children of the heav'nly King
    May speak their joys abroad, may speak their joys abroad

    The hill of Zion yields a thousand sacred sweets
    Before we reach the heav'nly fields, before we reach the heav'nly fields
    Or walk the golden streets, or walk the golden streets

    Then let our songs abound and ev'ry tear be dry
    We're marching through Immanuel's ground,

    we're marching through Immanuel's ground
    To fairer worlds on high, to fairer worlds on high
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    lfbno7

    There was a very close bond between Jew-hating Arabs like Amin Al Husseini and Hitler. Arafat refused a Palestinian state more than once, even going against the advice of the Saudis, because he refused to accept Israel's right to exist. All this name-calling about trolls is just a way of saying you're right without supporting your case. Your tone here and elsewhere has been the tone of a Jew hater. I was hoping you had left for good. Sorry to see you back.
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    sheltercrow


    cotterall&elaineadams do you have any say references for

    1. There is no way that Israel can make peace with Hamas and the P.L.O.

    2. Palestinians ...are not interested in creating their own homeland, just destroying Israel.

    3. What Hitler has to with the Palestinians.

    4. How leftist have to take sides with the Israelis or the terrorists.

    That ought to get us started.

    And where is Trinov?
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    sheltercrow

    Great, we got the Hamas thing out of the way. And there really is no disagreement that Mohammad Amin al-Husayni was an anti-Semite.

    I quote Wikipedia...

    Mohammad al-Husayni was known for his anti-semitism, which aimed to destoy the Jewish community in Israel and may have had even broad anti-Jewish goals. He fled Palestine in 1937 and took refuge in Nazi Germany during World War II and helped recruit Muslims for the Waffen-SS. In 1941 al-Husayni met Adolf Hitler in Berlin and asked him to oppose, as part of the Arab struggle for independence, the establishment of a Jewish state . During the 1948 Palestine War his faction was represented by the Army of the Holy War, which had been founded as a secret society by Jamal al-Husayni in 1936. He opposed King Abdullah's ambitions for the Palestinian territory captured by the Arabs during the war.
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    sheltercrow

    This is problematic because it is dishonest...

    "I side with Israel not because I oppose a Palestinian homeland but because of terrorism, the desire to destroy it through militancy, the election of militants, suicide bombings and Abbas' attempts to destroy them democratically through the right of return for refugees."

    The Palestinians resort to terrorist activities because of the Illegal Israeli occupation of their land and it's blatantly illegal land theft with the settlements. Withdrawal of it's illegal occupation of Palestinian land by Israel would eliminate some of the tensions that cause the resort to terrorism. It's simply dishonest to say that Israel occupies the west bank because of terrorism.

    And what about the expulsion of the more than a half million Palestinians since the failed 1948 mandate? The eradication of entire Palestinian villages? There is an old Rabbi that has said that the Jewish God is not a God of real-estate as the Zionists have made God out to be.
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    crybabylu

    Sheltercrow:   I beg to differ with you on the above!  You say that statement is dishonest!  That is a judgement on your part!  You would have to show a lot more information than you are to prove your side of this issues....

    And yes, I do think you take sides.  For whatever reason, I do not know, but look through all of your blogs please, and then tell me that you have given a fair and balance look into this situation.  I think not.  I can't judge your intent, for only God knows the heart of another person.

    But, I think by your own writings, if you care to peruse them, you would see that they lack balance of judgement.

    That is only my perspective, No judgement intended of you on my part.  Only directly above where you accuse the person you have quoted as being "dishonest"....LOL
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    sheltercrow

    By the way where is Trinov? I think we would be better served if you all attempt to overwhelm the thread with meaningless minutia. As an aside I just had a long involvement at another site with this same post. I got over 1000 views and some 200 comments so far and a Zionist meat-puppet to boot. Real good stuff. Arabs are dogs, they all deserve to die, you know the usual Zionist rubbish.

    I never write anything that I have not personally researched myself cry. You know that. If you don't like the bad news don't read the paper.

    By the way this is my thread this time.

    And just think SeanMySuperior is blocked. lol. Too much joy.
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    TinSoldier

    Sometimes, trinov is as difficult to read as you, but no less worthy of reading. I know that I should make more effort.

    Now, you're gonna make me dig out my Middle Eastern History textbook aren't you? Wherever I put it...

    The Palestinians resort to terrorist activities because of the Illegal Israeli occupation of their land and it's blatantly illegal land theft with the settlements. Withdrawal of it's illegal occupation of Palestinian land by Israel would eliminate some of the tensions that cause the resort to terrorism. It's simply dishonest to say that Israel occupies the west bank because of terrorism.

    But what is "illegal occupation" by the Israelis, and what is not? While I'm sure there is a segment of Palestinian Arabs who believe that if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders then everything will be hunky-dory, there is also a segment who believes in complete eradication of the Jewish state.

    I have no idea of the ratios, though.

    Oh, and let me reiterate this bit:

    It's simply dishonest to say that Israel occupies the west bank because of terrorism.

    It seemed to be dishonest to say that Israel occupied the Gaza Strip because of terrorism. Then they withdrew, and were proven to be correct.

    And what about the expulsion of the more than a half million Palestinians since the failed 1948 mandate? The eradication of entire Palestinian villages?

    It's a subject of contention between both sides. He said, she said. I don't deny that atrocities were committed by both sides, and that strength won out. Hence the criticism.

    Two wrongs don't make a right.

    Two facts about Israel and Palestinians that many people forget, ignore, or are totally unaware of: many Arabs are Israeli citizens, and even serve in the Knesset. Many Palestinian Arabs are not Muslim, but Christian. It's not a completely simple question.

    Now, I support Israel and I don't want this next thought to brand me as an anti-semite, but one thought that I've had with regards to Israel, is that in some ways it can be seen as a ghetto writ large. Not because Jews are required to live there, but because of the insistence on making it specifically a Jewish state that is less than willing to assimilate other cultures.

    Probably neither a nice nor an accurate metaphor, but one which has crossed my mind. I realize that Judaism is not a race nor a religion but a shared culture and identity for the most part.

    The thing that blinds me more than anything, probably, is that being an American I believe that people should form groups based on shared values, not based on skin color or religion or historic national identity. So sometimes there's a disconnect in my head I guess, since that is the exception around the world rather than the norm.

    Let the flames begin!
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    crybabylu

    This is only an opinion, mind you, based on my own observation from watching the TV news and reading some periodicals about the situation in Israel and the West Bank.  It seems, that everytime Israel pulls back, then the opposing group, push in farther.  I think that Israel believes, they need a barrier between them and the Palestinians, because of that factor.

    I don't know, it is just opinion on my part, what do you think?
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    sheltercrow

    While I look at your response I think in order to give a little balance to the discussion we should document for everyone the "850,000 Jewish refugees from Arab lands who never get mentioned as refugees" so we all understand the issues.

    I know I would like to know what the record says.
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    sheltercrow

    As a good night I will just leave this wonderful quote.

    Edward Said put it well when he said that the Palestinians are the "victims of the victims."
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    TinSoldier

    The problem is that Israel, like the Palestinian Arabs, are not a monolithic "thing". They are groups of people with beliefs that span across extremes. Some Israeli Jews believe that the whole of Palestine should be theirs to take as their own. Some Palestinian Arabs think that the only good Jew is a dead Jew, and that Israel is a dying extension of European colonialism.

    And both groups have a set of talking points to convince you of the rightness of their cause, and guns to convince you if you are not swayed otherwise.

    Also, they are quite adept at convincing their politicians of the rightness of their cause, which is why an equitable solution has not yet been adopted by either side.

    sheltercrow, you posted as I was. I don't want to handwave those figures away (not that I have much respect for Edward Said). I'll await further discussion, because I would also like to know the record. The difficult part is separating the truth from the emotions.
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    lfbno7

    The insistence on making Israel a Jewish state goes back to the reason for the United Nations mandate in the first place. Israel was created as a Jewish state by the U.N. because it was designed to be the one place in the world that would, by law, allow any Jew to emigrate to, NEXT TIME, or any time. The rest of the world closed its doors and left the Jews to cook. So if Israel stopped being a Jewish state, it could refuse admittance to Jews NEXT TIME.

    It's not over-dramatic to keep referring to NEXT TIME. Just look at the world today. There are always racial mass murders going on. It's one of the facts of life in this world. If it isn't the Jews getting exterminated, it's somebody else. Those other people should have safe countries to go to as well. It was the Jews' misfortune to be the targets of such a huge and highly publicized extermination, thanks to the touted German engineering.
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    TinSoldier

    The Zionist dream existed before the UN did, though. And the British kept European Jews from emigrating to Palestine during WWII, consigning many of them to the gas chambers. And the US refused to accept more than a minimum of Jewish refugees into her borders during WWII.

    But in the end, the UN did not create Israel. The people of Israel did, a dream that was a long time coming.
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    sheltercrow

    Israeli settlements

    A number of international bodies, including the United Nations Security Council, the International Court of Justice, the European Union, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch and many legal scholars have characterized the settlements as a violation of international law.

    In November 2006 Peace Now acquired a report (which it claims was leaked from the Israeli Government's Civil Administration) that indicates that as much as 40 percent of the settlement land that Israel plans to retain is privately owned by Palestinians.

    In February 2008, The Civil Administration admitted that more than a third of West Bank settlements were built on private Palestinian land, originally seized by the IDF for 'security purposes'. The unauthorized seizure of private Palestinian land has been defined by the Civil Administration itself in a recent case as 'theft'.

    Legal status of the territories

    The annexation of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights Law have both been deemed illegal by the UN Security Council (resolutions 267 and 497 respectively), and have not been recognized by other states.

    Legal status of the settlements

    The establishment and expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip have been described as "having no legal validity" by the UN Security Council in resolutions 446, 452, 465 and 471.

    The European Union considers the settlements to be illegal, and an April 21, 1978 opinion of the Legal Adviser of the Department of State to the United States Congress on the legal status of Israeli settlements concluded that "[w]hile Israel may undertake, in the occupied territories, actions necessary to meet its military needs and to provide for orderly government during the occupation, for the reasons indicated above the establishment of the civilian settlements in those territories is inconsistent with international law."

    In 1967, Theodor Meron, legal council to the Israeli Foreign Ministry stated in a legal opinion to Adi Yafeh, the Political Secretary of the Prime Minister, "My conclusion is that civilian settlement in the administered territories contravenes the explicit provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention."

    International human rights groups Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have denounced the settlements as illegal.

    The International Court of Justice, in an advisory (i.e. non-binding) opinion to the UN General Assembly, argued that according to Article 2 of the Convention applies if “there exists an armed conflict” between “two contracting parties”, regardless of the territories status in international law prior to the armed attack. It also argued that "no territorial acquisition resulting from the threat or use of force shall be recognized as legal" according to customary international law (and defined by "Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations" (General Assembly Resolution 2625).

    On 15 July 1999 a conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention met at the United Nations headquarters in Geneva. It ruled that the Convention did apply in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem. The Conference of High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention held in Geneva on December 5, 2001 called upon "the Occupying Power to fully and effectively respect the Fourth Geneva Convention in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and to refrain from perpetrating any violation of the Convention." The High Contracting Parties reaffirmed "the illegality of the settlements in the said territories and of the extension thereof."

    U.N. Security Council Resolution 446 refers directly to the Fourth Geneva Convention as the applicable international legal instrument, and specifically insists that Israel desist from transferring its own population into the territories or changing their demographic makeup.
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    Expendable

    Both sides have been caught at it. Both have real grievances with the other. It's not a matter of who's right and who's wrong anymore. What has to happen is they - not us - have to work out their problems.
  • anonymous said on Apr 20, 2008....
    lfbno7

    Expendable, I like your comment that the Israelis and Arabs have to work out their own problems. I think the solution is to greatly decrease the hatred. I think it is more an emotional issue than a political issue, and that the driving force is hatred. I'd like to see cultural exchange between Israel and its neighbors.

    A good start would be sports. For some unknown reason they like to play soccer down there, so they can have an international soccer league with Israelis and Arabs together, on all the teams. Share whatever parts of their culture they can possibly share, in peace and harmony. To me, that is the "road map for peace".

    I don't think there will be peace in the region until the hatred has been decreased substantially. And I would want to see all of the nations in the region make it illegal to spread hatred of other races in public or in the media. It's as dangerous as yelling FIRE in a crowded movie theatre. It's one bit of freedom of speech that the Middle East can't afford.
  • sheltercrow said on Apr 20, 2008....
    lfbno7

    "I think it is more an emotional issue than a political issue...

    Israel occupies and steals Palestinian land and denies Palestinian heritage and you think it's just "an emotional issue." Fortunately for the Palestinians in the real world it's called a criminal case of 'theft'. Even the Civil Administration calls it 'theft'

    "In February 2008, The Civil Administration admitted that more than a third of West Bank settlements were built on private Palestinian land, originally seized by the IDF for 'security purposes'. The unauthorized seizure of private Palestinian land has been defined by the Civil Administration itself in a recent case as 'theft'."

    lfbno7

    "and that the driving force is hatred..."

    Israel occupies and steals Palestinian land and denies Palestinian heritage. What would you do Bruno?

    lfbno7

    "I'd like to see cultural exchange between Israel and its neighbors."

    I would hazard a guess that until the Israelis give back what they have stolen and abondon their Illegal occupation you can nix the "cultural exchange" idea.
  • sheltercrow said on Apr 20, 2008....
    cotterall&elaineadams

    "Let's get rid of the P.C. leftist garbage..."

    "P.C. leftist garbage" is a smear I suppose. And that means is reading your we are all "racist and anti-Semitic" stuff. Hum...

    cotterall&elaineadams

    "I am tired of the anti-Israeli sentiment"

    I personally could care less about you fatigue problems. The problem it seems to me is not "anti-Israeli sentiment" but a psychological dementia that affects all real-estate-Yahweh Jewish Zionists.

    cotterall&elaineadams

    "It is sad that Palestinians live under occupation"

    This is so pathetic. You care nothing about the Palestinians much less feel sadness for them.

    cotterall&elaineadams

    "they are not interested in creating their own homeland, just destroying Israel."

    This and the rest of you comment should have been left in the Zionist Troll thread. It's is the deluded ranting of a demented real-estate-Yahweh Jewish Zionist.
  • TinSoldier said on Apr 20, 2008....
    Are you collecting evidence against us?

    Heh. I hope that you don't consider me one of your "trolls", although Nicholas Kristof had an interesting editorial about how people become defensive against ideas that go against their own beliefs.

    I linked it in my own blog.

Comment on "Zionism and Zionists."

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"As bizarre as it may sound to some, Zionism is either a foreign or just an archaic notion for most Israeli-born secular Jews."...
Irony ....just irony.....hehe...

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