• lioneljay said on Apr 15, 2008....

  I saw this. It looks like another one of those dirty little secrets that the administration doesn't want people to think hard about.

• bloc said on Apr 15, 2008....

  hey, haven't seen you around lately. Glad to see you :)

• kelly said on Apr 15, 2008....

  Good point.  I feel like a complete dolt for not having had that cross my mind before.  Still, quite often there are taxes due at the end of the year.  Not everyone gets a refund, but it is a big difference from assuming that they pay zero taxes.

• bloc said on Apr 15, 2008....

  usually those that make the most owe at the end and those that make the least get returns. I don't want to talk about taxes this year, it makes me want to cry :/

• D6fer said on Apr 16, 2008....

  The agency estimates that for 2005, the last year for which figures are available, about $9 billion in taxes was paid on about $75 billion in wages from people who filed W-2 forms with incorrect or mismatched data, which would include illegal immigrants who drew paychecks under fake names and Social Security numbers.
  
  Why should I feel sorry for those that have no respect for our laws? That last statement indicates that they broke the law at least twice!
  
  bloc.....didn't you buy a house last year and have a kid? ......you need to claim less on your paychecks! ;)
  

• lioneljay said on Apr 17, 2008....

  You know, D6, for once I really agree with you: "Why should I feel sorry for those that have no respect for our laws?" I'll be interested to see if you have this same attitude when half of the Bush administration is brought up on charges for conspiring to torture as defined by treaties signed by the United States.

• D6fer said on Apr 17, 2008....

  I won't have the same attitude.....at least the Administration is looking out for us.....I can't believe you guys....you'll hitch your wagon to anyone or anything that will help you bring down republicans!

• lioneljay said on Apr 17, 2008....

  D6, the Repubs have done this one all on their own. Nobody told them to subvert the Constitution and try to rewrite the Geneva Convention.

• bloc said on Apr 17, 2008....

  Bush authorized torture and violated serveral other laws, including the constitution. What's said is that you will try to defend such things simply because the person doing it has an R by their name

• D6fer said on Apr 17, 2008....

  Doubt if you'd believe me but that makes no difference to me in this instance. To me the militarys advantage over the enemy is far more important than politics.....we have a job to do over there.....and if a few terrorists have to be waterboarded for 15 seconds then so be it.....It could have been Clinton in office....I don't care.....I didn't complain when they bombed the shit out of bosnia....little did I know that we were protecting the same sick fuckers that we are having to fight against now.....should have let Milosevich have his way with them! There are plenty of other world leaders that are now recognizing the threat....Geert Wilders in the netherlands, I believe....The new French president....many others.....europe is on fire....your precious socialist blueprint for America is burning before our eyes.....now they are beginning to see what the real threat in the world is...all of you are nothing but the fuel for these fires! Fools!

• silverwhisper said on Apr 18, 2008....

  i'm having the same reaction kelly did--how did i never realize that before?!
  
  ed

• bloc said on Apr 18, 2008....

  
  @d6
  strawmen are terribly unconvincing. When you lie about what we are doing it makes your argument fall apart.
  

• D6fer said on Apr 19, 2008....

  you are kindling. you can try and spin it anyway you want.....you are making this country weak with your attitude.

• silverwhisper said on Apr 19, 2008....

  you know what makes this country weak, d6? subverting our core values. that's precisely what our idiot president has done. hell, you've more or less said as much re: immigration about him.
  
  ed

• bloc said on Apr 19, 2008....

  torturing people is not a sign of strength, it's a sign of fear and a lack of character. Strength and courage are having values and living by them in the tough times.

• lioneljay said on Apr 19, 2008....

  I find it very curious that the very people who rail against personal irresponsibility as a vice (and they're not wrong about this) refuse to apply the same standards of morality to those who govern them (as long as they're Republicans, anyway).

• D6fer said on Apr 19, 2008....

  what is funny to me is the fact that you guys don't realize how much things change, yet how they remain the same......the only thing that has changed is the way we get our information and the amount of it that we now receive.....if you don't think that this or worse has been going on during every war up until this point in time under every administration, then you are just naive.
  Information flows 1000 times faster and more freely than it did even 10 years ago.
  Combined with the polarization of more people politically......the infiltration of the U.S. military by pseudo-patriot turncoats.
  no wonder this has become an issue.
  You make it sound like we have torture cells set up all over the world.....death camps.
  Water boarding has only been used 3 times that I have heard of......I wish they had used it more....hell, they probably have! I don't care! Truth be told, I bet an overwhelming number of Americans would feel the same way.....never mind your political correctness pressured polls....I mean what people really feel.
  
  

• lioneljay said on Apr 19, 2008....

  To paraphrase people of the right, D6, if you don't really like the way our Constitution reads, there's always North Korea. Korean Air Lines has several flights every day.

• D6fer said on Apr 19, 2008....

  Constitution or not....this is the way it has always been....you are ignoring that.

• bloc said on Apr 19, 2008....

  "if you don't think that this or worse has been going on during every war up until this point in time under every administration, then you are just naive."
  
  This is different than what our government has done in every other war. Show me another administration that legalized induced hypothermia or waterboarding. Show me another administration that has claimed that torture is only something equivalent to the pain of losing a major organ. The only thing that is naive is an attempt to defend this.
  

• D6fer said on Apr 19, 2008....

  you just don't get it.....it's always been there....just not in the public light.

• D6fer said on Apr 19, 2008....

  here.....I didn't even read it yet....I'll come back to this.

• lioneljay said on Apr 19, 2008....

  And what is it about "it's always been there" that makes torture right and a good thing? That same line of reasoning would have prevailed against the outlawing of slavery, too.

• bloc said on Apr 19, 2008....

  torture happening in war is very different from the US government authorizing and legalizing it. Don't act dumb to try to maintain your point. 

• D6fer said on Apr 19, 2008....

  but you have been saying that this is new.....did you complain about it under the Clinton administration? Should there be an investigation into what went on then?....he did it 1st....I guess his trial comes before bush 43....and bush 41 before that.

• bloc said on Apr 19, 2008....

  clinton did not authorize the use of induced hypothermia or waterboarding. 

• D6fer said on Apr 19, 2008....

  you might as well drop the induced hypothermia bullshit....the media doesn't  even care about that!

• kelly said on Apr 20, 2008....

  Who cares what the media cares about?  Decent people will still be against torture.

• silverwhisper said on Apr 20, 2008....

  d6, if you can't be bothered to read the stuff you link, don't expect anybody else to expend the effort.
  
  ed

• D6fer said on Apr 20, 2008....

  I did read it ed.....here is one of my favorite excerpts:
  
   The terrible irony of the anti-historicism of the torture debate is that in the name of eradicating future abuses, past crimes are being erased from the record. Since the US has never had truth commissions, the memory of its complicity in far-away crimes has always been fragile. Now these memories are fading further, and the disappeared are disappearing again.
  
  This backs my comments about torture in U.S. history.....I understand that the stance of the person writing the article is an anti-torture  position....but it does a great job of pointing out what I am talking about.
  

• bloc said on Apr 20, 2008....

  @d6
  let me see if I understand your point. You are saying that we've always tortured people and that we should continue torturing people?

• silverwhisper said on Apr 20, 2008....

  and that it's no big deal, business as usual.
  
  ed

• D6fer said on Apr 20, 2008....

  I'm not going to allow you to argue your point from a false position....that is what I am saying there....now....move on to discuss torture in and of itself.....John McCain was tortured....real torture......he is ok....hell he might be our next Pres!.....compare what happened to him to Water Boarding....that is not torture! .....it may be highly effective....but it is not torture.......now if they want to start peeling peoples skin off or things like that then I may show some sympathy.....but you wont convince me otherwise in regards to water boarding.....we could go back and forth on this forever.....I've made myself clear on this issue......so now I'll allow you guys the joy of having the last word and you can leave your hideous verbal portrait of me here for all to see!  ;)

• kelly said on Apr 20, 2008....

  "John McCain was tortured....real torture......he is ok..."
  
  
  Oh, really?  How do you know this?  Because he appears to be functioning?  Do you have any idea what permanent psychological effects were made because of his torture?  Do you know for a fact that he never wakes up screaming in the middle of the night?
  
  
  Even if he was "ok" that would make him an exception.  Most torture victims suffer from depression and the inability to trust anyone ever again.
  
  
  Your absolute disregard for rule of law and the pain and suffering of others is astonishing.  The general public is so worried about nearly non-existent terrorists when in fact they should be worried that people like you exist in great numbers.

• bloc said on Apr 20, 2008....

  john mccain says that waterboarding is torture and that we shouldn't do it.

• bloc said on Apr 20, 2008....

  @d6
  do you believe it's ok for other countries to waterboard captured americans, since you don't believe it's torture it should be OK then right?

• silverwhisper said on Apr 21, 2008....

  on what basis do you claim waterboarding isn't torture? last i checked, you actually weren't the supreme arbiter of all things legal. did that change recently? :>
  
  ed

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