courtesy of fark...
short version: the document-leaking site wikileaks published some documents by the church of scientology (or as i prefer to call them, the church of violentology). the church sent a cease & desist letter, to which wikileaks retorted no, and that they'll publish an additional 1000 pages of church documents. long version here.
commentary: i despise scientology. there are many reasons, but basically it's for 2 reasons: 1) the more money you give the church, the more you are given by the church; and 2) they have a long and ignominious history of brutally attacking anything remotely resembling criticism. i've long felt that criticism and how one responds to it tells you a great deal about a person--or organization.
it's a sentiment that i've summed up thus: that which least tolerates criticism most deserves it.
and scientology deserves whole heaping metric tons of it.
ed
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silverwhisper posted on Apr 15, 2008
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Comments
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diabolicdame said on Apr 15, 2008....
That which least tolerates criticism most deserves it.
Thats very wise! And the whole scientology thing just goes over my head.. I mean they have all this weird stuff that one keeps hearing about.. silent birth and all.. I just don't get it!
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kelly said on Apr 15, 2008....
"church of violentology"You come up with the best homonyms! Or whatever they are...Yep, I'm with you on the Scientology goons. I'm wondering if they'll be able to be considered mainstream as quickly as the Mormons have done it. I sure hope not. What a bunch of freaks. Oh, pardon, me. That probably sounded judgemental. -
kelly said on Apr 15, 2008....
Oh, forgot to say GO WIKILEAKS.ORG! -
silverwhisper said on Apr 16, 2008....
diabolic: why thank you! i think it works b/c it functions sorta like a classic mystery cult (i think the wiki article on 'em is decent).
kelly: i can't claim credit for that one--that's actually from steve jackson games, the RPG publisher whose officers were raided in the 90s by overzealous law enforcement who feared (pheared?) their forthcoming hackers RPG supplement. :>
and yeah, wikileaks is teh shiz.
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gran1de7 said on Apr 22, 2008....
hmm... reminds me of Tom Cruise... I like Tom Cruise, even if he is a scientologist... and I don't believe scientology made him go "crazy" (whatever the americans are calling him right now).
and there is also another Hollywood actor, who is also a scientologist... forgot his name... but he has no crazy life history like Tom Cruise's.
I don't believe that scientology is a religion for violence... it is up to the person if he wants to become violent or not... -
silverwhisper said on Apr 23, 2008....
gran, i recommend checking out the last link in the blog entry.
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gran1de7 said on Apr 25, 2008....
Finally! I remember the actor:-) John Travolta... (actually, I only saw his name in another blog... and he is not like Tom Cruise).
Ok, ok, I clicked the link some nights ago... I did not continue reading because I thought it was so biased... so anti-scientology...
So, as of now, I have just finished reading this article about scientology in wikipedia.com... not wikileaks... I thought it would be unbiased... turned out, it also contains some paragraphs which, in my opinion, are not good for the definition of scientology...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology
but, further reading... i saw that the scientology has its good and bad sides... like you should not depend on medicine too much... you should depend on your body...
and, remember tom cruise's philosophy? he likes exercising a lot because, for him, physical and mental healths are connected, will always be connected, can not be separated from one to the other. i truly believe in it; i believe that PE classes should continue to exist till graduation day, whatever is the student's course in college.
in any case, the wikipedia also says that scientology treats its famous practitioners like royalties, while they favor less those non-famous practitioners. for me, this is common; whether you are a catholic, moslem, or jewish, as long as you are famous, you are the King or Queen or apple of the people's eyes... and I won't like it if Tom Cruise is not doing anything to improve the state of those non-famous practitioners... (hope he can read this, which is so impossible)...
to end this... if someone recruits me to become a scientologist, of course I won't join... and i won't say anymore (like, "Because your religion promotes violence, etc.)...
still, i like tom cruise, whatever his scientology is...
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silverwhisper said on Apr 26, 2008....
no offense, but sometimes, when a thing is described as bad, it actually is, gran.
[shrugs]
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gran1de7 said on Apr 26, 2008....
Nope, I don't feel offended :-) Thanks! -
Trinov said on May 03, 2008....
Hi, how anyone can take this seriously knowing that it was invented by a science fiction writer is something I can't understand. They unfortunately made inroads in Israel among the non-religious. They seem to make the less educated or semi educated think great things about the potential of their average brains, and then take advantage of these patsies, and those who finally wake up are intimidated. It reminds me of the story of the emperor's new clothes. -
gran1de7 said on May 03, 2008....
Maybe it is not good... but "to make the less educated or semi educated think great things about the potential of their average brains" is the good part here...
It is like, sure, you can understand English. But you have the capability to speak 10 languages, you are not just taking advantage of it. (Look at Tom Cruise 30 years ago, and look at him now... big difference...)
The rest of their philosophy might be a bit... not right. -
silverwhisper said on May 04, 2008....
trinov: i don't understand that, either. it seems to prey on the less than confident though--just like any other cult.
gran: seriously, if mindless blather about feeling good about yourself is enough to justify the systematic destruction of the cognitive faculty, then frankly we have nothing to discuss.
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gran1de7 said on May 05, 2008....
huh? all i'm saying is, the part that trinov said is ok... "to make the less educated or semi educated think great things about the potential of their average brains"... that is the good concept...
and tom cruise is one good example. he might used to be a dyslexic child, but he did his best to become one of the most famous men on earth.
this is also like albert einstein...
other than that, nothing more...
end of story... no more comments, thank you...
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silverwhisper said on May 05, 2008....
my problem is that on the basis of that nebulous bit of "feel good" you seem quite willing to forgive scientology as a good thing despite the very real damage it causes.
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gran1de7 said on May 05, 2008....
Hmm... I only cited it as a good concept. A good idea. But I NEVER said I was "quite wiling to forgive scientology" for that.
If you were a parent, I guess you would also say the same thing: "You can do lots of things, kid, I know it. Not just one, but two." Then, let the kid do his own task.
Scientology might have taken into account that idea... then used it for their own purposes... which is bad...
Other than that... the idea of saying to someone to think of great things because he can is a GREAT IDEA! it is not damaging as far as i can see. it doesn't sound damaging.
get it, or not? understand it, or not? if not, gosh...
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silverwhisper said on May 06, 2008....
gran, that's such a common sentiment that can be found almost everywhere that holding it up as laudable is to me silly. i find it to be like being grateful for being able to breathe or drink water.
indeed, i might even call it damning with faint praise.
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rustydiamond said on May 06, 2008....
I don't think I could survive without wikileaks, they keep us well informed. i don't think celebrity scientologists are going to be able to do a thing to change people's minds about scientology, and i am glad of that. -
silverwhisper said on May 06, 2008....
hello, rusty, welcome to my blog and thanks for visiting. :>
i don't think most scientologists have the brainpower left to change people's minds about scientology. :>
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gran1de7 said on May 06, 2008....
to silverwhisper: yes, you should be grateful you could breathe or drink water... it is not silly, it is called a "blessing"...
anyway, whatever... (why can't you simply say i'm somewhat right? looks like you don't want to lose in a correct-the-sentence debate like this...)
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silverwhisper said on May 06, 2008....
gran, you really aren't understanding my comments, are you?
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silverwhisper said on May 06, 2008....
let me put it another way: would you say that i'm somewhat right? or would you argue that i'm simply not understanding you?
see, that's the thing: i understand perfectly well what you're saying. and on the face of it, at the most superficial, trivial level, yes, you're right.
but the problem is when we start looking deeper into what scientology does to people. you see, that message of empowerment is just a lure.
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gran1de7 said on May 06, 2008....
no... am separating what trinov said to the religion scientology... they are two different topics...
er, i don't think you understand me at all... as in... i don't think you do... what a life... i'll go give comments to other blogs, i guess that is much better for my mood...
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silverwhisper said on May 06, 2008....
[shrugs] -
PieterOpie said on May 06, 2008....
I don't like the bastards because they make the other "real" religions look quite good by comparrison. That is itself is very bad. All religions are evil in disguise. They rob the minds of our kiddies and kidnap our souls - (whatever a soul is meant to be). Men created god in our image. That much is obvious or why would god need a penis, or bowels. God does not need arms and legs either; he can float everywhere he wants to go. Then he created woman and gave her Adam to play with. You see - already the whole thing makes no sense. People don't care about that. "It is a matter of faith" they say. Yeah, well.... whatever.
So why couldn't god be a martian or wherever the hell the guy from scientology came from. It doesn't seem to matter to people who are basically brain dead. Anyone who questions religion and cults thoroughly enough can only conclude that it is a pile of......... of.... eh...... of anything but reality.
Scientology, like catholicism is into power and money and both have done well. Even the Pope knows that if you don't think you have sinned then it is NOT a sin. So if birth control is not a sin in your eyes - go for it because of that secret loophole you are not a sinner. They don't tell you that. Not even your average child-molesting priest knows that. Only theological scholars know that.
It's is the same way in the cult in question. It's all bullshit but only the inner circle actually know it for sure, whereas we must simply assume it. OH... I mean we must have faith..... that's better. Anyway at least Germany got it right by banning them and I hope others follow their intelligent decision.
If you have problems - go see a therapist. Not a crazy person in a church. They do not deal with reality. Except for money........ LOTS OF MONEY...... and art, and real-estate, and assets...... hmmmmm...... ass-sets......... hmmm r r r rllll....
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PieterOpie said on May 06, 2008....
hey...... my editing didn't take.
excuse my errors and the unbelievably long long long length of it.
I take medications that make me rave as a side effect.
(forcing myself to stop now........ NO!!!! I want to say more...... NO YOU IDIOT!!! Leave me alone...... give me that keyboard...... AAAAARRRG!!!! Are you crazy???
<CRASH!!! BANG BENG THUMP BOOMP!!!!> wha.....???
-------long pause---------
I go now....
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silverwhisper said on May 07, 2008....
pieter, welcome to my blog and thanks for visiting! hm...not big on the concept of reading the bible as allegory, eh? :> while i completely disagree with you on a number of things, you carry it all off w/ such aplomb! :D
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PieterOpie said on May 07, 2008....
No, I do not read the bible as allegory. I don't read the bible at all. It is an incomplete collection of texts written by some guys who claim to know what happened, who did what, who said what and when and why and so forth. I have a problem with these stories since not one of the authors was there and not one ever met Jesus. Certain people were trashed by the idiot boy's club such as Mary Magdelane who was apparently the favoured apostle and who was meant to lead the church. Judas was painted as a demon when he was in fact the most loved by Jesus who trusted him with the difficult task of revealing his identity to the Romans - so they would arrest him and... well, the rest we know. Jesus wanted to be martyrred to promote his agenda which was political, not divine or religious. Unlike other rebels Jesus aimed to defeat the Romans peacefully without making war against them. He wanted his family line back in charge of the place instead of those thieving upstarts who ran the temple like a bunch of corrupt gangsters. They ripped off the locals for using the temple. They did not like Jesus and wanted him gone.
Eventually Jesus got what he wanted (the idiot) and Peter and his gang took over and made Mary out to be a whore and Judas a traitor. They changed things in order to suit themselves. The corruption of the truth began at the very start and continued throughout history. Now some read that crap believing god wrote it for christ's sake!!!! What is wrong with them?
The idea that a human being can die (completely & absolutely) and then make a comeback worthy of some die-hard singer who would also be better off forgotten. Pay attention.... PEOPLE DO NOT COME BACK TO LIFE. That is a simple fact of life (and death). Gods do not have children either. They are immortal and do not need to procreate. The whole christian cult hangs off that waffle. OH PLEASE... what esle do you expect me to believe? The bible is a fictional, violent, piecemeal works that must be kept away from kiddies and dumb fools. It is dangerous. The constant wars fought to force this nonsense on others proves that it - and other similar books must be ignored as having any legitimacy.
In that time any nutter with a psychosis claimed to be a prophet or messiah. This is one of the ones that made it into history. That's all.
As for scientology.... they understand the power religion can have over the massses. They use it expertly to make money. Lots of it. More cash - more power - more privilage for the inner circle. They are ultra-capitalists; turning nothing into money. Now that's a miracle!!!!
If I had my way I would tax all religions and charge a HUGE registration fee and forbid them from any political activity in any way. All donations must be accounted for with donors given detailed receipts. Every leader of every sect, cult, church should be picked apart by the IRS. If they are obviously making a mint then should be declared businessmen and the church deregistered. I would be ruthless. There would be much confiscating and redistribution to the real needy - not goodie-goodie middle America. 40 milion Americans live below the poverty line. WHY!!!??? Many go hungry and many live on the streets. WHY? This should not happen in any civilized nation. Where are the "christians" with need like that?
I despise religions and scientology are among the most despicable. I am 100% sure that if there is a god then he would agree with me. Well.... maybe 98%. Let's not go crazy....... LOL
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silverwhisper said on May 07, 2008....
i'm curious, if you don't read the bible, how can you claim to have any meaningful insights as to its contents?
did you perhaps mean that you've read it and found it lacking?
it's a funny thing: you cannot logically disprove the existence of god, just as you cannot logically prove the existence of god. philosophically speaking, the only tenable position is agnosticism, i've always felt.
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PieterOpie said on May 08, 2008....
I hate reading. I am familiar with some of the contents of the bible. As to my wild ideas; they have been distilled out of what I have learned over my entire adult life reading articles, watching every documentary on the subject and discussion with anyone willing to put up with my attacks on religions. But I do not read the bible in that devotional sense. Why would anyone do that? Once you establish it is mostly rubbish full of contradictions written by weird men who make outrageous and fantastic claims. Monotheism begins with Abraham, a guy who has slaves and has sex with one of them to get an heir and then when Mrs A. gets preggers and drops a bundle he changes his mind and makes kid #2 his heir. And there in lie the roots of a long lasting conflict that rages to this very day. His real son goes on to establlish the jewish mob and eventuall the other one gives rise to Islam. Of course we christians are jewish traitors. The rest of the world does not exist which is handy because heaven is only for one-god lovers. Those Indians with their 300 million gods are as good as in hell. BTW- there is no hell and no devil and both have been acknowledged by various popes. Satan was invented a few times in fact and hell was his hang out. They, like so much in religion came into being when invented by creative lunatics.
Note that all of my raves about religion have nothing to do with god. I am not attacking the existence of god. I am not saying I believe either. Who knows if there is a guy up there. It is frankly irrelevant. I attack religions - all religions as being the tools of nasty men (and women) who seek to control us and force our conformity to their will. Meanwhile they can do things in his name and get away with murder.... literally. Odd since one of the basic rules states "thou shall not kill". So far the Buddhists are the only ones who obey this rule and they are not even allowed into heaven. We on the other hand kill each other by the millions and eat a whole host of innocent creatures to feed our faces. God never specified who or what you should not kill..... I must assume he meant any living creature - like the Buddhist belief. Every beef steak is one step further from god's love....... hehe. One more shrimp on the barbie and another angel dies.
I won't even touch on Islam and some of its super keen enthusiasts who know exactly what god's will is at all times and kill everything god hates. I thought god was love - not hate. Hence still more killing. Every route to god is soaked in eons of bloodletting and death.
I believe we are the cleverest ape who even went to the moon, and before that achievement invented god to explain all the things our swollen brains had no explanation for. That curiosity never left us and we have outgrown our reason for believing in gods, devils and fairies. I am convinced that all of these ideas should be put away. We can study ethics instead and leave invisible things out of the deal. I do not need a self-styled preacher on TV in a $5000 suit telling me how to be a better christian as he appears to get richer than god himself.
Now that's evil.... They are basically all inherently evil in concept. Scientologist are so blatantly sans god and are so greedy for money as they wash away your reasoning and give you a false sense of confidence that any half-wit can see it is a complete money making exercise. I pity anyone who has fallen for their crap. people end up giving these thugs everything. How can any government allow this - or those TV evagelists - especially the ones that fall from grace with their sexual and financial corruption and the like. Lock 'em up and confiscate the lot. Simple. The rest can pay taxes like any other business. Yes, god is a business.
Anyway.... I am tired and my brain hurts. I suspect god has given me a tumour for all my evil raving. Now Benny Hill will have to push me to the ground and remove it. LOL.
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silverwhisper said on May 09, 2008....
let's hope that benny hill has as little to do with your groundward inclinations, hm? :>
pieter, you cannot really understand a religion without understanding what motivates its adherents: the religion's holy texts. you can go by what the adherents will tell you, but without seeing why they say one thing in one situation, and another in a different one, the whole of it will always seem incredibly inconsistent. further, without being familiar with the text yourself, you have no basis for establishing whether a given interpretation makes any sense either, so you can watch all the documentaries and read all the ancillary materials you like, but without the text, you might as well be reading tea leaves, IMV.
i understand you aren't reading in a devotional sense but reading it as literature might actually be useful. certainly i've found it to be so.
[shrugs]
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PieterOpie said on May 09, 2008....
Actually I have read parts of it. Whenever a documentary referred to anything from it I would read that part. I also started to read the thing when I was quite young but I do not believe much of what it rattles on about; especially Jesus and anything to do with god or angels or voices or visions or any other fantastical nonsense. If you mean that through interpretation it can help you live a good life then that's just swell but frankly so can sensible intelligence and some common sense.
As far as adherents go - they seem to vary so much in their various interpretations and levels of understanding that they might be discussing entirely different books which to me proves how dangerous it is as a guide or example for anything at all. If god had actually intended us to all follow it then he got a million diferent results ranging from war-mongering madmen who want to kill for god to reasonable and normal folk who live a decent life to crackpots
who take every single word literally - which I find outrageous and insane. There are many more extremes both harmless and frightening. It is the same with the Koran and also with any other scripture. The variation in their views of their "words from god" are also very inconsistent. Some are ordinary people and others are like the Taliban who are nuts. They all believe in the same god. They all think their way is the right way. Look at how arrogantly the catholics claim they have "the one true faith" and only catholics will go to heaven and the other 5 billion will suffer unbearable agony forever and ever.
What kind of god is he anyway to screw up all these visions he sends and all the inspirations he induces to end up with all these different books and then allows all these different interpretations? As for free will.... talk to a genetic biologsit and as I have often thought our free will is largely an illusion. God must be a real bastard to tell the jews they are special and then his son - hahaha... tells those who follow him are special and some guy called Mohammed tells yet another group they are special. Of course in all cases we ignore the vast majority of mankind who are not special in any way and they can all piss off and go to hell - literally. Naturally no devotee will blame god for this mess. I hold the top guy responsible. It was all his idea, his invention and an omnipotent god knew well in advance what would come of it. It is a cruel exercise and an abuse of divine power. That to me is not a real god..... that is a real prick!!!!
BTW.... I read Tarot Cards (as a hobby) and I believe if done with the right intention they are as valid as any other spritual or superstitious crap.
Incidently, I might establish a church too. We need yet another fun filled adventure filled with sex, money and vice on the way to and from god or some other thing. It's the journey you know.... God will have to wait. This time we are running the show. Watch out scientologist and catholics. We want your money.... eh, I mean unsatisfied followers. I promise anything and you can sin your brains out as long as I can screw you over. I guarantee a nice sunny spot in heaven or equally fun place next to a dead guy of your choice. I want Beethoven.
FYI - I was raised as a catholic and at age 14 I excommunicated the church for being a load of shit and I accuse the popes of perpetuating a dangerous lie and so forth, blah blah..... as well as all the other religions. If things had gone a little better we would all still be jewish. OMG!!!! What is worse.... being a jew or being a catholic???? Some choice......
The bible belongs next to the toilet in case the paper runs out......... PERIOD.
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silverwhisper said on May 10, 2008....
heh...there was no mistaking you for the angry atheist, pieter, don't worry. :> and let's not get into the who-goes-to-heaven thing: some people will tell you that throug all of human history, only 144000 people will make it and that's just plain stupid. :>
i've spoken with a cognitive psych researcher, and while he too feels that free will is partially an illusion, i wouldn't exactly dismiss it as an illusion based upon the discussions i had with him.
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PieterOpie said on May 10, 2008....
It does make me angry when I think about how many people have died for nothing and all those who have been conned by religious orginizations throughout the centuries. I think It is a valid reason to feel anger over so much deceit and wasted life. I find it odd that anyone would not be angry over that; anyone not taken in by it all that is. Those that are seduced by gods and demons are too be pitied for not having questioned their position on earth and in the universe. We are also programmed to be curious so what happened to them? The priests circumvented their quest for truth by supplying a complete and unchallengable
answer to everything. A god is responsible for the whole kit and kaboodle and no more searching is required - indeed it was actively discouraged with threat of death and unthinkable torture by burning at the stake or other choice method.
Remember poor Galileo and the pope's recent apology for giving the genious a hard time over his insight into a fundamental truth of our existence? Thou shalt not upset the dogma and speak the truth or we shalt crush you!!! Nothing much has changed. It still happens in unenlightened places and with insane fundamentalists including in America.... in the 21st century. Take scientology as the perfect example. Expose them and they will hound you, ruin your reputation, sue your butt off, and I would not put anything else past them either. All fanatics are inherently dangerous. That kind get power from their involvement in these magic shows and don't like to have it exposed or threatened because they would just become ordinary people with no special powers or connections to the ultimate truth. Nobody would admire and fear them anymore. It is scientologists one day and catholic bishops the next day. Let's not forget the self-styled crazies that do their song and dance on our TV screens broadcast from huge indoor complexes where tens of thousands braindead westerners sit and get told they are the best pixies of them all - as long as they support the cause and fork out the cash. Astonishing really. They go home believing they have done their bit for Jesus and his dad.
However I am not an angry person in general. I really don't sit at home and seeth and stew about the whole religious farce. The same goes for the political situation and how billions are sucked into the various systems and are used by clever men everywhere. Democracy in America for example is worth a good chuckle. It is a complete illusion. The people are illinformed and lied to so they cannot make a judgement and so democracy cannot exist. Your media is at least partially responsible for that. Other systems use other methods of manipulation - even obviously crude and blatantly nasty ones.
One of those methods has been the bible. Many a politician has dragged that tome of fiction to the soapbox as proof of worthiness and a source of morality and so forth. That includes killing and enslaving and stoning and going to war and every other gruesome thing in there.......
Anyway - I must hurry off now. I will be late for mass and holy communion....... byeeeee....
Piet. kissy kissy...
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PieterOpie said on May 10, 2008....
BTW.... I am done here. I have said all I want to on the stupidity of religion. May all decent people who believe in god be happy and those idiots who shove Jesus down our throats go to hell - where they belong.
Over and out. see you in an other topic perhaps.
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silverwhisper said on May 11, 2008....
pieter, i sincerely doubt you're done talking about this topic. but yes, we will almost certainly see one another again. :>
ed