• Lucytorial said on Apr 03, 2008....

  I am north Dakota... drill me baby!

• Lucytorial said on Apr 03, 2008....

  hey where's that drill????

• beyondtheveil said on Apr 03, 2008....

  d6- It has been known for some time of the vast reserves in sand, shale rock, and most of all, in coal. The biggest problem to date has been, as mentioned, environmental problems and cost. If they will ever seriously attack these problems with the proper technology, all three could be a real boon for us. But the cost will always remain very high. 

• D6fer said on Apr 03, 2008....

  beyond....yes that is true...and with oil over 100 bucks a barrel it is now well worth it!
  This is actual oil though....they have to do some tricky drilling to get to it....will cost more to extract, but they figure it would be worth it, even if oil drops to half of what it is now. There are companies currently drilling for this, and more to come on board.
  I hope the flood the market with this oil....drive the cost down......we only get 13% of our oil from the middle east. I sure hope it goes down to 0%....but I doubt it....this will probably hurt Canada and Mexico more.
  This is a great example of how the market can take care of itself....they don't need government intervention....they need them to get out of the way.
  

• bloc said on Apr 07, 2008....

  "This is a great example of how the market can take care of itself....they don't need government intervention....they need them to get out of the way."
  
  
  I think you are half right here. The market will always eventually correct itself. The problem is that the correction is often extremely painful and it's far better to regulate to avoid that pain. The runs on the banks during the great depression is one example. The market corrected itself, but is that really the best way in most cases?

• D6fer said on Apr 07, 2008....

  Regulation is good in the oil industry? really? Jimmy Carter thought so too.....he left us short......gas prices just didn't double in a 6 or 7 year period....they doubled practically overnight! 

• bloc said on Apr 08, 2008....

  so one poor policy choice means the entire idea is invalid? Hm, let's see where I can apply this level of critique ;)

• D6fer said on Apr 08, 2008....

  shutting down our nations capacity to drill oil and produce gasoline domestically has done nothing for the environment, and given other nations the upper hand economically.....regulating the industry drives up the price and thereby taxes those who can afford it the least....the poor.
  
  exactly what kind of regulations do you think are going to help?
  

• bloc said on Apr 09, 2008....

  help what?

• D6fer said on Apr 09, 2008....

  you said we need to regulate....why....what....how?

• bloc said on Apr 10, 2008....

  i was speaking generally, but if you want a specific example I think good regulation to help us get off of fossil fuels will have a better result than waiting for the market to painfully correct itself. Regulation can be anything from a tax on fossil fuels, subsidies for alternatives, or requiring the use of alternatives in various areas like government owned and operated vehicles.
  
  The market will correct itself if given time, but it's corrections are usually very painful.
  

• D6fer said on Apr 10, 2008....

  The market is already creating all kinds of new biofuel businesses....here in Washington State we have several....we have several cities using biofuels to run city buses, trucks, etc.....several companies are doing the same.
  
  There is money to be made here....it will and is happening
  

• Lucytorial said on Apr 10, 2008....

  The market will correct itself if given time, but it's corrections are usually very painful. A very true statement.
  
  The problem w lot of bio fuels is that they actually take more energy to make and produce more toxins than they save.
  
  The only bio fuel I know that has a good waste to energy ratio is sugar cane, the main issue with using it is that fuel companies don't want to be shut down so quickly.
  
  hey I know I'm jumping in, just reading a little here and there.
  

• bloc said on Apr 10, 2008....

  they are also being subsidized otherwise they couldn't compete until they scaled up. That's one of the reasons the market by itself isn't sufficient. Prices come down once something has reached a certain size. New energy technologies can't reach that point because they are too expensive at first so the market needs a little help from our foresight :)
  

• Lucytorial said on Apr 10, 2008....

  And our pockets, and not many of us are willing to do it.  Its interesting isn't it that we have it there in our reach yet we cannot fathom why we need to pay for it.
  
  Foresights a wonderful thing but it has to be taught if you understand my meaning, sometimes as you say the lessons are harsh.
  

• bloc said on Apr 10, 2008....

  @lucy
  yeah, most biofuels, i.e. corn based ones, are subsidized because the corn lobby is so powerful. sugar cane is more efficient, but does it grown in america in large quantities? Can it?
  
  The truth is that we need to learn to consume less. Our insatiable appetites are the biggest problem. There is a great book on this subject called collapse. It goes through the collapse of various civilizations and it's usually due to environmental collapse due to a culture that is unwilling to change. We may be another example in the long run. btw, the author of that book is the author of Pulitzer Prize-winning Guns, Germs, and Steel.

• D6fer said on Apr 11, 2008....

  The biofuels being produced in our region are vegetable based (soy mostly)
  as far as I know they have some tax advantage to run these businesses....I really have no problem with that.....I would much rather see a farmer get subsidized for growing plants for biofuels, than see one get subsidies for not growing corn....that is what has happened in the past....I am only assuming that they don't do that anymore, since there is now a worldwide shortage of corn because of the ethanol market.
  Another unfortunate bi-product of liberal do-gooderism! People in latin american countries will now have less to eat because of the great global warming scare!
  
  Putting all of our eggs in one basket will also cause even greater harm to the poorest people of the world.....many more people die each year from extreme cold than from extreme heat! If you increase the cost of energy by restricting the production of it, you kill people!
  
  
  

• bloc said on Apr 11, 2008....

  "Another unfortunate bi-product of liberal do-gooderism!"
  
  
  It was the Nixon administration that shaped the modern farm subsidy policies. I know that it's more fun to smear liberals than it is to learn the truth. 

• D6fer said on Apr 11, 2008....

  that has nothing to do with current ethanol demand....liberalism does! ;)

• bloc said on Apr 11, 2008....

  sometimes I think you are trying to have a serious discussion and other times you act like alienated. This is the later.

• D6fer said on Apr 11, 2008....

  so explain how I am wrong about that last statement......liberal demands for alternative fuel spawned the expansion of the ethanol market.
  
  You have no stable ground to stand on here and you know it.
  

• bloc said on Apr 12, 2008....

  One of the biggest supports of ethanol is Bush. Is Bush a liberal now?

• D6fer said on Apr 12, 2008....

  uh...yes...he kinda has been acting like one ;p

  kowtowing isn't necesarily supporting.

• bloc said on Apr 12, 2008....

  he has been a big proponent of this. No serious person can chalk this up to kowtowing. Your desire to treat politics as a game is clear when you make arguments like this.

• Lucytorial said on Apr 12, 2008....

  Sorry back again.
  
  Who's behind who though, the reasons as I see that bush is a proponent due to other preasures not because he belives in it. Christ the guy won't sign the kyoto agreement.
  
  I'm most likely wrong, I'm merely expressing an opinion that is external to America, its what is seen elsewhere.
  

• bloc said on Apr 12, 2008....

  i'm guessing he's behind it because of the corn lobby.

• Lucytorial said on Apr 12, 2008....

  Yes but Bloc didn't the corn lobby come from farmers pushing for a better deal along with environmentalists pushing the barrow that America is a huge dumper of wastes.. bush did the corn lobby so that it would look like he was creating his own idea of how to help the country.. {insert sarcastic smile} Its also a great spin away from the sub prime isn't it.  Economies going to shit so what can he do?? 

• bloc said on Apr 12, 2008....

  the corn issue is complex. Most of the current status quo came about in the Nixon admin and the goal wasn't to help the farmers, but to drive down the price of corn for the corporations that buy the corn and run the industrial food chain. It actually hurt the farmers which is why we hear all these horror stories today. 
  
  
  for more details, check out the book 'The Omnivore's Dilemma' 
  
  
  I'm not sure of Bush's motivation for the policy, but d6's idea that he's trying to appease liberals is not believable. 

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