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SeanRenaud reads (4):
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/ap_on_re_us/daughter_s_death_prayer;_ylt=Am292VR9CDNCKK4bGr.yTKFI2ocA
 
If everything is part of a plan then our actions don't matter, not in the grand scheme of things they don't.  The important actions, a leader freeing a people from slavery, a boy defeating a giant, the dropping of the atomic bomb and the falling of the Berlin Wall are all preordained by a greater power.  If you are meant to live you will live.  We can all recall stories of people who've survived bullets to the brain, plain crashes and heard claims of miraculous recoveries from cancer. 
 
We've also heart of people killed by stray bullets, who die suddenly of undiagnosed(able) diseases, even children aren't immune to SIDS or other common ailments.  Again if these things are random there is no guilt, no questions, nothing but the sheer mathmatical reality that it had to happen to somebody.  These events, like winning the lottery are entirely random and you didn't do anything to deserve them and really couldn't have done anything to avoid either (ok you could have NOT had a kid or NOT bought a lottery ticket at all)
 
The alternative is that there is a plan and nothing you can do will change that plan so why bother?  If you're meant to live you can be dropped in a den of lions, fight a giant alone or be executed and you will survive or rise from the dead.  If you aren't meant to live you'll catch a discus to the dome by your son at the Olympics.
 
Fact is these people had faith, real faith not the false faith we see in most people.  I commend their strength of belief, I condemn those who claim to put their lives in the hands of a higher power and don't follow this path.  Faith isn't for the easy.  Most people know that if God asked them to sacrifice their first born they'd magically become atheists.  This could would go looking for a knife.  They believe, the rest of you don't.
 
Still faith is a terrifying thing.  If you ever wonder why I rally against religion, all of it from radical Islam to Catholisism to lbfno7's belief in a creator it's because they are all rooted in the same insanity that killed this girl.  Her parent's aren't murderers as much of the media is claiming.  They meant well, they let their daughter die because they have ignorant beliefs but they didn't want their daughter to die.  They deserve sympathy not jeering.  And a permanent place in a mental institution, or to be put to death.
 
You don't pet a rabid dog, you don't hide him away either.  You put him down because it's the humane thing to do.  Why do we do less for dangerously sick humans?


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Comments

  • vacantmind said on Mar 28, 2008....
    The only reason that I see that we don't put down humans is because we believe we are superior. We believe we hold more value than a dog. 
  • SeanRenaud said on Mar 28, 2008....
    If we are truly of more value than our suffering should be held in higher regard.  We should be more willing, not less willing to end the suffering of our equals.
  • vacantmind said on Mar 28, 2008....
    That would seem logical but we fail miserably. It seems as a society we have a hard time admitting failure and this would be admitting defeat. We can't fix these people isn't something we accept. Which is why I don't think we are above the animals of the world. I think we have alot to learn from them.
  • crybabylu said on Mar 28, 2008....

    It is stories such as this that make me madder than mad!  At the end of the article, the dad says; "We did the best we could for her'  at least, I think that is what I read before getting hotter than hot!

    It is cases such as this that cause people to point at any and all religion as nothing but a bunch of superstion and whuey! 

     If your child is sick, you take her to the doctor. So they can find out what is wrong and take care of the problem.  What they did, in my opinion, was inhumane and it was done towards their daughter no less.

    Anyone who believes this way and/or teaches this way should be "horse whipped" and worse! 

    As far as your post, goes Sean, this incident doesn't prove anything you said.  Not everybody believes what you stated.  Yes, there is a God, and yes he had a plan for mankind in the beginning!

    That plan hijacked by Satan, another being you don't believe in.  We are not in God's world here.  Satan is the prince of this world, and he is the author of sickness, and famines, disease, murderous acts, bombings, genocide, rapists, the list goes on of all the atrocities of mankind.

    God uses individuals who have dedicated and consequated their lives to him.  Those who seek his will and do it.  I am not referring to those who say they are following him and doing his will, because God doesn't put guns in little kids hands, he doesn't drop bombs on innocent people, he doesn't cause earth quakes and other natural disasters.  He doesn't do any of those things.

    What he instructs his followers to do is to follow him, and to love God, and their fellowman, to seek righteousness, to help the needy, to minister to the poor, to live the kind of life that brings glory and honor to God.

    What this family did didn't bring God any honor, it gave yet another cause for non-believers to stand back and look at believers and accuse us, and they are right in their accusations, if this is the way we choose to conduct ourselves.

    I think what these parents did was very wrong, and there will probably and rightly so will have far reaching consequences until everyone starts using a little common sense with their beliefs!

  • crybabylu said on Mar 28, 2008....

    "That plan was hijacked by Satan, another being you don't believe in.  We are not in God's world here.  Satan is the prince of this world, and he is the author of sickness, and famines, disease, murderous acts, bombings, genocide, rapists, the list goes on of all the atrocities of mankind."

     

    This part should have follwed the above:

    Satan was part of God's plan, while he was part of God. But, he lost that standing when he chose to "fall".  Now he is a fallen angel and the bible says he took a third of the angels with him, he was cast back down to earth, and this is his domain. 

     We true followers of God are just pilgrims passing through, on our way home. While we are here, we give aid to those who are in need, and minister to the brokenhearted....

    Jesus said in his word, that this was not his kingdom, nor was it God's kingdom.

    God uses individuals who have dedicated and consequated their lives to him.  Those who seek his will and do it.  I am not referring to those who say they are following him and doing his will, because God doesn't put guns in little kids hands, he doesn't drop bombs on innocent people, he doesn't cause earth quakes and other natural disasters.  He doesn't do any of those things.  The bible says by their fruits ye shall know them. If anyone is doing these things, they are not of God.

  • SeanRenaud said on Mar 28, 2008....
    There is no Satan to trick us.  And no god to save us.  There's just us and any belief to the contrary feeds right back into the insanity that killed this girl.
  • crybabylu said on Mar 28, 2008....
    Sean,  Long time sparring partner of mine, off the subject, i just want to leave you with something just for you. "At The End Of YOur Journey Is God!"
  • TinSoldier said on Mar 28, 2008....
    I guess there's an Oregon couple who let their child die, but since the state's law has no protection for that then they may face prosecution.

    link

    I'm not religious, but here's the story that I like and that I think is relevant:

    A religious man is on top of a roof during a great flood. A man comes by in a boat and says "get in, get in!" The religous man replies, " no I have faith in God, he will grant me a miracle."

    Later the water is up to his waist and another boat comes by and the guy tells him to get in again. He responds that he has faith in god and god will give him a miracle. With the water at about chest high, another boat comes to rescue him, but he turns down the offer again cause "God will grant him a miracle."

    With the water at chin high, a helicopter throws down a ladder and they tell him to get in, mumbling with the water in his mouth, he again turns down the request for help for the faith of God. He arrives at the gates of heaven with broken faith and says to Peter, I thought God would grand me a miracle and I have been let down." St. Peter chuckles and responds, "I don't know what you're complaining about, we sent you three boats and a helicopter."

    God helps those who help themselves. I don't know if there's a plan, I don't know if there's life after death (I doubt it), and I don't know if there's some kind of Grand Plan which is at odds with Free Will.

    If there is a Grand Plan, then God meant for man to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. If there is no Grand Plan then there's no way to know what He wants and we're basically on our own anyway.

    *shrug*
  • andora said on Mar 28, 2008....
    blah, blah, blah,

    THE WILL TO LIVE IS A FORCE OF NATURE

    all I read about this thread sean, before I went cross-eyed that is, was the voice of hopelessness justifying your point of view as to why you are powerless
  • andora said on Mar 28, 2008....
    let me elaborate

    diabetes is highly treatable through proper diet...and there are plants that detox the liver so that insuline production can improve...there are so many people that have treated diabetes without injecting that these people should have done a little research...but, alas, they pray as if it all depends upon god and DO nothing.

    my policy:
    pray as if it all depends upon Goddess and work as if it all depends upon me
     
    praying instead of helping a sick person is a form of blind faith that is now illegal

    praying and researching alternative medicine seems like a happy median if one does not trust established medicine

    I do believe that  Goddess gave me everything I need  to heal myself, if I can educate myself about what is actually going on with my biology, I do not have to roll over and place the responsibility for my life upon a deity that has already provided me with the tools to help myself, if I would take some interest in common sense.

    Sometimes the religious ignore solutions that are right under their noses because they buy into religious dogma.Too bad for the little girl...some people have even killed their children because they tried to exorcise demons from them

    extremely religious folks don't even believe in evolution, even when the evidence is plainly clear...

    hopelessness disguising itself as faith
  • SeanRenaud said on Mar 28, 2008....
    The thing is that atleast if you believe in the Abrahamic religions if God wants something to happen it will happen.  If you're meant to eat manna will form on the ground every morning, quail will fly to you or your jar of oil will never empty. 
     
    The Bible/Quran/Torah are all quite clear on the Higher Power having a plan and if it's meant to be it will be.  There is a reason why some people will survive plan crashes and some guys manage to drown in a bowl of soup.
  • andora said on Mar 28, 2008....
    the age old question of fate (gods will) vs. free will

    some say God gave us free will...

    some say God planned out the whole puppet show...

    my God isn't so stupid as to enjoy a puppet show

    The Will to Live is a force of nature

    desire is the alchemy of magic
    www.pangasm.org
  • silverwhisper said on Mar 30, 2008....
    sean, your blaming religion for the child dying is to me exactly as sensible as charging the parents for murder.

    ed
  • Ombrelle said on Mar 30, 2008....

    Wow, some heavy discussion here. I believe there is a Plan, there is God/Godess and we, as humans, have free will. How does that work? Well, think of the Plan as one long river with thousands of tributaries going left and right of the river. You make choices everyday to either stick to the main river or take a tributary, the left one, or the right one. In either case there will be a result. That is where God/Godess comes in - you made the choice, he/she made the Plan.

    I think that's probably very simplistic and there must be more to it but that's what came to me when reading your posts and comments.

    Ombrelle

  • TinSoldier said on Mar 30, 2008....
    WRT the Oregon case that I linked above, the parents are being charged with 2nd degree manslaughter and criminal mistreatment.

    Link.



  • stopmediabias said on Apr 02, 2008....

    Tin-that is a great story:>

    Sean-That is an interesting story and very sad.  It is similar to the Jehovah Witness thing where kids have died because they disagree with transfusions.  When is comes down to it there should be a time when the law steps in and trumps a person's relgious beliefs.

    I've never held the pre-ordained belief and you know I believe in God.  There is an interesting perspective on the grand plan for us humans when we die in a movie.  "When Dreams May Come" with Robin Williams (not a comedy.)  I don't know if you have watched this but everyone should, it is a fascinating perspective on death and hell and other mindwrenching topics.

  • silverwhisper said on Apr 03, 2008....
    smb: i've seen that film and i have to say, i like robin williams in dramas. i agree it's a good film.

    i am now looking for 4 horsemen, since i've just agreed with smb on two matters of public policy. cleary, the end times are nigh! :D

    ed
  • stopmediabias said on Apr 03, 2008....

    what's this world coming too :>

     

  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 03, 2008....
    I don't know but I'm getting scared.
  • andora said on Apr 05, 2008....
    very scary indeed!

    I love that movie 'when dreams may come' and actually attempt to utilize some of the concepts in that movie (got that info from a different source, but it aligns well with the movie) to clear up judgments that make me subject to misunderstandings about reality. I thought that the rendition in the movie about the ramifications of suicide were brilliant!

    Robin Williams is so expressive...he was great for the part!

    I don't agree with the government telling people how to take care of their children...unless the parents/caretakers are physically abusing them...some could argue that medical treatment is basic care that should be required, but when the 4th leading cause of death in the US is medical mistakes ---well....need I say more?
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 05, 2008....
    Yes you need say more.  You need to tell me how many children die of medical mistakes for starters and how many of them would have been better off without them.  I mean not only in this case but also vaccinations.
  • Life_Love_And_Laundry said on Apr 27, 2008....
    I think you can have faith in a higher power and be spiritual without being religious.
    At the end of the day it's the man-made power structures of organised religion that causes the damage.
  • SeanRenaud said on Apr 27, 2008....
    I suppose you could try to argue that, but there is a direct link between belief in god, and acceptance of scientific fact and standards of living.  Though to be fair the US bucks many of these trends at least in part.
  • Scrubboy said on Oct 25, 2008....
    Hey, what do you do at night?  You have to turn off that brain of yours from time to time or your going to have some health issues.  Seek the peace of nothing.  In other words, turn off the TV, the radio, don't read the paper etc.....  It's OK, there are somethings we are not suppose to understand.  Some things we cannot grasp.  Your not alone in your thoughts but there are times when thinking of nothing is the greatest treat we can have.

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