• skald said on Mar 20, 2008....

  I only know that the people there are no better off than they were 5 years ago and the situation is appalling there. 

• uniquely-ironic said on Mar 20, 2008....

  I'm not sure what the solution is.  It seems that they have traded one set of problems for another in that region.  I agree that the people of that nation need to pull it together and form some sort of plan to ensure a tolerable future.

• sexylatinagal said on Mar 20, 2008....

  We should leave.

• GrapeKoolaid said on Mar 20, 2008....

  We're never leaving Iraq, unfortunately.  Not any time soon, anyways...
  
  The newly built American Embassy in Baghdad is bigger than Vatican city.  It houses over 2'000 people. 
  
  It's the fortress of Acre all over again. 
  

• dailyachesandpains said on Mar 20, 2008....

  I thought it was actually yesterday that marked the day.
   
  I don't know, myself.  I have the same fears as you do. 
   
  When I sit and really think about it, I wonder if they had better lives 5 years and a month ago, than they do now.  I do know that the families of our American Soldier's and other countries that have lost loved ones, or that were severely injured had better lives 5 years and a month ago. 
   
  I also feel like this war has totally slipped from the headlines and it's not being reported on as much as it was, even from a year ago.  Almost like a forgotten war. 
   
  I wish it would end, but it's not as easy as wishing it away.
   
  Daily 
   

• silverwhisper said on Mar 20, 2008....

  skald: i'm not entirely certain i agree--hussein's son isn't raping and murdering random iraqi women with complete impunity, so at least that has to be considered a plus.
  
  u-i: yeah, that seems to be the only consensus people can ever reach about iraq.
  
  sexylatinagal: hey, welcome to my blog and thank you for visiting! so in your opinion, should we just pull up stakes and ship everyone out ASAP, or something short of that?
  
  grape: OK, but what in your view should we do? thanks for the link re: acre--i was unfamiliar with that.
  
  daily: oops, according, you're right--my bad!
  
  ed

• skald said on Mar 20, 2008....

  Ed I guess. so but I think improvment is very slow there. 

• dailyachesandpains said on Mar 20, 2008....

   
  The reason why I remember is because it was exactly one week and a day before I went into labor with little d. and her b-day is a week from today (I had her just after midnight).  I was pushing, watching Survivor and begging for CNN because things were getting really heated there.  I ALWAYS think of the war on her birthday.  It's like my own day to pay my respects.  I always think of those that would die while she was just being born. It's a sad feeling.   
   

• silverwhisper said on Mar 20, 2008....

  skald: yeah, i agree it's definitely slow!
  
  daily: heh...i shoulda known...btw, do you still keep in touch w/ that soldier?
  
  ed

• dailyachesandpains said on Mar 20, 2008....

  Ed, you know I haven't heard much from him since he's come home (last August), but I do from time to time.  Just a little here and there.  He was having a difficult time adjusting to NOT driving all over the road.  Where he lives there are hunters (they mostly shoot coyotes for the farmers and the farmers pay them).  He was one of the hunters before he left (as well as a fireman and full time Army).  He said he jumped a mile the first time he heard a shot fired when he was sleeping and reached for his weapon only to find that he didn't have one and suffered his first panic attack.  He also said that you want to reach for your weapon when someone just drives in front of you...an old lady did it and he had to remember that he's here and she's not a suicide bomber.  His overall complaint was adjusting to life back here, and not the war.  His main gripe was driving correctly again and not just going around anywone when he pleased while driving, not fearing other drivers would blow their cars up while at a red light or when they're parked in a fire lane at the grocery store.  He does look at everyone differently and he told me that changed him as a person.  He thinks everyone is a terrorist.  He is in therapy, only because they're making him.  Overall, he sounds okay considering the losses in his unit and all that he had to see over there.
   
  The good that came out of it all, if there's anything good, is that he and his wife that split years ago got back together again...and he had to beg her to come back to him!  Now he's living with her and their son full time.  The first thing he did was buy a house for all of them.  He was in Kuwait and Bosnia (when he and his wife divorced) and has said that this war gave a whole new meaning to family values.  He plans to retire after he trains up the next unit to head over there. 
   
  I actually enjoy hearing from him less because it's more of a treat to catch up when he calls.  It's not like we have nothing to talk about.  Mr. Daily had taken a few of his calls and had a few good detailed conversations that Soldier said he wouldn't ever tell me about because of my being so sensitive, lol!
   
  Thanks for asking about him Ed!  Very nice of you and I'm glad I could share.
  Daily

• husbandhater said on Mar 20, 2008....

  Shit or get OFF THE POT! You cannot stop a group people who are HELL BENT on killing eachother due to religious beliefs. We are stuck in the middle and I am only 1 of too many who are tired. Leave them to their own devices as we have built their country up ENOUGH! And at the cost and welfare of our own.

• kelly said on Mar 20, 2008....

  I think the claim could be made that we are less safe than before the invasion. Our invasion has given cause to radical groups around the world.
  
  
  But what should we do? It's now a tough question even though I'd like to see us out yesterday. As is so often the case the people with the money and power have made terrible mistakes and it will be you and me that pays for it. The soldiers over there are literally paying with their lives and the armchair generals like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rove get to walk away scot free. So now we have to fix it up as best we can.
  
  
  I'm not even sure what the best solution would be, but it's obvious that American presence is not good. It's also fairly obvious that it wouldn't be good without American presence either. It's a totally messed up and goddamned expensive situation that our dimwitted leaders have left us with.

• silverwhisper said on Mar 21, 2008....

  daily: thank you--i believe i've mentioned that my brother-in-law did 2 tours over there as a USMC reservist, and he doesn't like to talk about what he went through over there, so your telling me about your soldier helps me to understand better some of the trouble he's having with adjusting back to civilian life. i'm glad your soldier is getting counseling--there's a long history of soldiers coming home and having problems making that same adjustment. :>
  
  HH: yeah, i'm not so sure there's a way to stop, you know?
  
  kelly: yeah, that claim can definitely be made, no question. and i'm glad to know i'm not the only person who's looked at the situation and still doesn't quite know what the best route to take next is. wasn't it alien of all people who cited a $2 billion/week figure for our presence there?
  
  ed

• dailyachesandpains said on Mar 23, 2008....

  Ed:  Thanks for asking and I am happy to share.  I can't even imagine what he's dealing with now. 

  My "other Mom's" (like a second Mom) boyfriend is NOW a contractor in Iraq.  He retired from the Air Force (I believe) and didn't know what to do with himself when he retired.  Their house was going to be foreclosed on and they had to list it for 200K LESS than what they bought it for!!!  The only thing he could do to make the money was become a contractor and head over. 

  When I spoke with her last night she said it sounds like a firing range when she talks to him!  She hates that he didn't go over there as military, but as a civillian contractor (AKA Bullseye to the bad guys).  He said to her that he hates it too that his not being military over there, he feels like he let his guys down.  And coming back as a contractor isn't looked upon lightly because the units that protect the convoys are the ones that get attacked.  Also, he's not allowed to carry a weapon.

  He said to her that through talking with some guys he actually knows that are there (military guys serving) said it's gotten a hell of a lot better.  It's not considered suicide becoming a contractor as before.  The soldiers would get pissed when new contractors, or additional contractors came in. 

  I'll be seeing her on my trip and she asked me to scan some pictures he took of over there.  I'll email them to myself and share if I'm allowed.

  Daily

• silverwhisper said on Mar 24, 2008....

  wait a sec: he had to go over b/c he needed the money? jeez...that's nuts! i hope that he's safe!
  
  ed

• dailyachesandpains said on Mar 24, 2008....

  Ed:  Yeah.  He's a computer geek too!  He couldn't find any work in Florida that would pay him CLOSE to what he was getting in the military.  When we saw him last year he showed Mr. Daily and I this virtual condominium project he was building for a presentation that he was doing for a developer.  We were both in awe!  Couldn't believe that he couldn't find work. 
   
  He was a lifer and he wasn't getting along so well in civillian life.  He joined when he was 18 and he's in his 50's now so it was like "culture shock" when he retired.  He never knew what it was like to have difficulty finding a job.  He always knew where his salary was and the raises he'd get.  It's like he left the military like a child. 
   
  They have 3 houses.  Each of them have a home that they both had before they met, those are rented out.  The mortgage on "moms" is only $500/month and she would never give it up (she only paid 60K for it).  She would have a place to go if they ever split.  The house they bought together (in Florida, remember) cost them 500K!  She has a good job as a Physical Therapist and works with a lot of athletes.  He was LOST!  He tried to start up businesses that took at lot of money.  They were all historical types of things.  One even being a walking tour of historical sites.  He just didn't plan well.  They had their house up for sale for a LONG time, even before the money problems.  It SAT and then a neighbor sold his identical house for 300K, not helping them at ALL.
   
  So, he's over there for the money. It's the only thing that he knew he could do in familiar surroundings (well, military surroundings).   
   
  Daily

• silverwhisper said on Mar 25, 2008....

  yeah, i've heard that those guys get paid well...ugh.
  
  ed

• curmudgeon said on Mar 25, 2008....

  I think we need to look at this from a larger perspective than security in Iraq or the United States.
   
  Yes, that was the reason given, but there are always larger relationships to consider.
   
  We didn't find any WMDs, but early on in the invasion it was reported that caches of illegal weapons were being found all over Iraq. Why did those stories disappear so quickly? Because it was reported that many of those weapons had French and Russian labels on them. Who knows who else was selling Saddam weapons illegally? A hit on Bush's credibility is far preferable to deteriorating relationships with two members of the UN Security Council. Not only that, but those illegal weapons likely presented a valuable bagaining tool for other, larger negotiations.
   
  Note two things: Russia's recent criticism of Iran's pursuit of nuclear technology, the Security Council's rounds of criticism and sanctions on Iran, and Lukoil's growing market presence in the United States.
   
  Iraq is just a small part of a very complex web of larger relationships we have with countries around the world. As Americans, we need to appreciate how big we really are, and how some efforts may actually be setting the stage for larger ones.
   
  My guess is that we'll have a major military presence in Iraq and Afghanistan even after the situation is stabilized from a secruity perspective. Iraq still has the second largest known oil fields in the world and we're not going to let the Europeans or Chinese come in and profit off of what we've fought so hard for. That's just plain bad business.
   
  The other factor is Iran. With troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan - and the capability to build bases - we can prepare and launch attacks from all sides: Afghanistan from the East, Iraq from the West, we can use Turkey's and Azerbajian's (I think we even have bases there) airspace from the north and from the Persian Gulf to the south. 
   
  We don't necessarily have to invade and occupy. We can simply pummel the government and its military forces until it's no longer a threat to its neighbors and has to rebuild its military capabilities.
   
  If we abandon Iraq, we give up a huge platform from which we can stage attacks on Iran, Syria and Jordan.
   
  We may call Bush a warmonger and all that, but he's simply laying the groundwork to give future presidents a set of strategic options, which can be used for leverage in negotiations. They don't necessarily have to lead to war.
   
  Any president who would willfully give up military options we paid for so dearly would do a great disservice to the men and women in our armed services and the American taxpayers who footed the entire bill.
   
  It's beyond me how people can advocate just getting out after we've spent so much blood and treasure there. We should do all we can to stabilize Iraq and help it grow into a (hopefully friendly to the US) center of power in the Middle East.

• silverwhisper said on Mar 25, 2008....

  i'm sorry, but i think that any notion of bush as being able to act in accordance w/ any plan beyond figuring out his next meal is, shall we say, less than credible? :>
  
  neither do i find credible the notion that the US wants to stage attacks in iran, syria or jordan. our military is already past the breaking point, AFAICT.
  
  as to how people advocate getting out: it's called a sunk cost, man. this misadventure is bankrupting us.
  
  ed

• curmudgeon said on Mar 28, 2008....

  I see - Bush is sooo stupid that he got Congress to authorize this misadventure. He's sooo stupid that through his mendacity he was able to "dupe" hundreds of elected representatives who claim to be smarter than he is.  He's so stupid he got the UN to impose sanction after sanction not only on Iraq, but these days Iran as well. He is sooo damn stupid that despite the GOP losing Congress on the Democratic promises that we'd be out of Iraq, we're still there fighting. And even if he's not the brightest bulb on the tree, he's soo stupud that he's surrounded himself with a team that's been able to pull of this stuff off.
   
  If he's an idiot, he's my kind of idiot. :-)
   
  That aside, it isn't necessarily Bush laying groundwork of his own design. These ideas were probably bouncing around ever since that whole Shah thing fell through in the late 70s. And yeah, we may be stressed in one location at the moment, but only because we've got so many other committments around the world. As I said, we don't necessarily have to invade or occupy. We still have the  arms and armor to kick Iran's ass back to the twelfth century and leave it at that.

• silverwhisper said on Mar 29, 2008....

  o, i absolutely think that bush is of at best middling mental capacity, curm. however, he did have the political good sense to listen to karl rove, who's anything but stupid. :>
  
  cheney isn't particularly clever and rumsfeld's simply an asshole. i wish bush spent more time listening to dr. rice and gen. powell than the pair of tweedledum and tweeldeass. i mean, c'mon, bush was listening to one guy who lost an election to a corpse, for crying out loud! cheney and rummy are bush the elder's re-treads. bush the lesser gets zero credit for hiring a pair of daddy's pals.
  
  ed

• sexylatinagal said on Mar 29, 2008....

  The troops need out of there and now no slow process tell iraqis that it is their ballgame and pull out.

• silverwhisper said on Mar 30, 2008....

  you know, i keep wanting to say that but i can't help wondering whether that would lead to a years-long civil war there.
  
  ed

• oceanwaves said on Jun 15, 2008....

  silverwhisper  I was just going to leave my comment to the question, but after reading some of the comments I can't in good conscience do that, but my answer to the question is yes we should pull out now and no they are not better off than they were 5 years ago:  My reply to some of the comments;uniquely-ironicsaid on Mar 20, 2008....

  I'm not sure what the solution is.  It seems that they have traded one set of problems for another in that region.  I agree that the people of that nation need to pull it together and form some sort of plan to ensure a tolerable future.(First of all they did not trade one set of problems for another because both problems were pushed on them, and how do you expect them to pull it together when people will not leave them alone-America is the one that needs to pull it together and either impeach Bush an Cheney or try them for "WAR CRIMES" so this will not happen again.)dailyachesandpains ( Think about it under Saddam they were considered an example for the area as to their social programs they were about to lose their designation of a third world developing country because of their educational, health care system and their economy, but now thanks to America's help they are back in the "dark ages" literally no full time water and power service you can go here to see where your tax dollars and Iraq oil revenue has gone (http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_dubai_ski_resort.htm)  I wonder why this can be built, but the basic necessities for the Iraq people is not attainable after 5 years?  silverwhisper said on Mar 20, 2008.... skald: I'm not entirely certain i agree--Hussein's son isn't raping and murdering random Iraqi women with complete impunity, so at least that has to be considered a plus.( You make it sound like no rapes are occurring since we removed Saddam and his sons, but as this article shows (http://kdka.com/national/Steven.D.Green.2.270010.html) the only thing that has changed are the rapist.skald said on Mar 20, 2008.... Ed I guess. so but I think improvement is very slow there. It's easy to make general statements if no one  questions you just what improvements are you referring to?husbandhater  just what are you referring to when you state we have built their country up enough? You sound like you get all your news from corporate controlled mainstream media which means you are only getting propaganda news so you are very deceived go to some alternative news sources-or let me challenge you to listen to free speech TV for a week and see what real investigative news is. Just a few questions you bloggers should be asking yourself who can't seem to make their minds up about being in Iraq:1. Are we at war with Iraq?-No 2.Are we now occupiers? yes 3. Is any thing we are doing over there legal?No,  4. Are innocent people being killed by our presents? Yes, and lastly if the situation was us in Iraq's position what would you want us to do? LEAVE.Now WHAT DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD DO?  PEACE-DL
  
  

• curmudgeon said on Jun 16, 2008....

  http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080616/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_turning_point

  This link points to an article that says confidence in Iraq's government is increasing and that violence has reached its lowest point in three years.

  To be fair, there are still many ongoing problems, but if we get out now as Oceanwaves proposes, the work we've done, money we've spent and lives we've lost will be for nothing.

  There are signs of progress in Iraq. It's been long and slow and expensive, and it will probably take another five to ten years, but we can leave Iraq in better shape than when we found it.

  Ultimately, that's what I think we ought to do.

• oceanwaves said on Jun 17, 2008....

  curmudgeon 1. Violence is down, armed extremists are in disarray, government confidence is rising and sectarian communities are gearing up for a battle at the polls rather than slaughter in the streets.
  2.Still, Iraq is by almost by any measure safer today than at any time in the past three years. I was going to list the improvements stated in the referred to article, but as I read I realized the improvements were not really improvements for Iraq , but improvements for our illegal war and occupation.  Iraq is definitely in worst shape under  the US than Saddam
  I see the problem here as being different views as to what America's role in world affairs are.  I believe we should stay out of other countries affairs until we are asked to intervene and we then only intervene after our Congress does it's constitutional duties to decide if we should, and legally it would never be to invade another country unless they attacked us first.
          
  curmudgeon said(To be fair, there are still many ongoing problems, but if we get out now as Oceanwaves proposes, the work we've done, money we've spent and lives we've lost will be for nothing.) I don't see as we have accomplished anything but getting rid of Saddam's regime which we had no legal right to do.The money we have spent and the lives we have lost have only been lost for an "Illegal War and occupation",  Legally we are in the wrong here. You bloggers do realize the" ins don't justify the means" don't you.
  curmudgeon said (There are signs of progress in Iraq. It's been long and slow and expensive, and it will probably take another five to ten years, but we can leave Iraq in better shape than when we found it.) except for the lives of the honest civilians we killed I don't see as 5-10 more years will make any difference when we can't even get power and water on in five years.  Do you not find it strange we can build five military bases and a Vatican sized embassy and not do anything for the common people?According to the (PNAC) which is what Bush's policy is based on we never intend to leave Iraq, but use it as a base for attacking other countries in the area we deem necessary.
   curmudgeon said (Ultimately, that's what I think we ought to do.) Would you think that way if you were an Iraq civilian who had lost his entire family?  PEACE-DL

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