SoulCast - Should Israel destroy Palestine?

Should Israel destroy Palestine?

D6fer posted on Mar 01, 2008 | views: 1531 | Tags: Israel, palestine, politics, middle east, al-Khalisa, Shelterlogic, war, whack job

Israel is being hit daily now with rockets fired from the Gaza strip.....You don't see much about it in the news, but it continues to happen on a daily basis.
When is enough, enough?
They are now threatening to unleash a "holocaust" on the Gaza strip.

Should they? Why or why not?

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Comments

bloc said on Mar 01, 2008....
for the most part, violence begets violence. I don't think they can fight their way to peace.
pickersplock said on Mar 01, 2008....

I'm pretty sure it's a no win situation either way.
D6fer said on Mar 02, 2008....
bloc....We fought our way to peace with the American Indians, The British, Japan, Germany, Ourselves......In each case, the stronger, more technologically advanced side won.
So your statement is just plain wrong.

ALIENated said on Mar 02, 2008....

The day is coming when Israel will stand alone agaist its enemies without even
the United States to help it (the US media has already gone there as you so
correctly point out). But God will be with them so they should fear not. If someone
came by and slapped you in the face every day, what would you do? If you have
a pair, you would slap back. Should a nation do any less? Hopefully, the US will
be nothing more than a good friend, and make sure no other bullies jump in and
join in the slapping.

GrapeKoolaid said on Mar 02, 2008....
Umm... Not without being called a "Zionazi".
bloc said on Mar 02, 2008....
the native americans are the only ones comparable to this situation and we committed genocide against them. If you are calling for genocide then be honest about it.

I didn't say it was impossible for any country in any circumstance to fight their way to peace. I said that I don't think Israel can do it (in the situation they are in).
D6fer said on Mar 02, 2008....
Ask the Japanese if they think that Israel can do it or not......Israel is quite capable of leveling every country in the region.....do you think that it is wise from the standpoint of say Iran, to push them into the corner? I don't.

Nuclear weapons will be used again on this Earth.....That I am sure of....Israel will most likely be the ones to use them.

As far as the indians go bloc.....I don't think that falls into the same category as genocide......yes massive numbers of indians were killed, but only as a result of attacks on settlements.....and I am not saying that the indians were wrong for trying to stop those settlements....but that is life....and war is a part of it.
bloc said on Mar 02, 2008....
"yes massive numbers of indians were killed, but only as a result of attacks on settlements"

this is one of the stupidest things I've read on SC.
D6fer said on Mar 02, 2008....
oh goodie.....maybe you will make me the subject of one of your personal attack posts!

What is stupid about it? Settlers came in....built settlements......were attacked.....retaliated.....rinse, lather, repeat....it's just that simple!
bloc said on Mar 02, 2008....
"Settlers came in....built settlements......were attacked.....retaliated.....rinse, lather, repeat....it's just that simple!"

You should read a few history books. Yes, you are now on one of my enlightenment posts.
D6fer said on Mar 02, 2008....
There are a lot of revisionist history books out there bloc....all of which I am sure you own......the fact of the matter is this.....the indians that inhabited this land prior to our coming here, were waring peoples.....veni vedi veci......get over it!
bloc said on Mar 02, 2008....
wow, your statements are beyond dumb.
D6fer said on Mar 02, 2008....
yes....they are true.
bloc said on Mar 02, 2008....
"yes massive numbers of indians were killed, but only as a result of attacks on settlements"

This is patently false.
D6fer said on Mar 02, 2008....
how about "primarily" as a result of attacks on settlements?
That work for you?
mobil said on Mar 02, 2008....

Actually it all started as a result of attacks on settlements, that my friends is an accurate statement.

The rest was mucho more convoluted.
GrapeKoolaid said on Mar 02, 2008....
Um... If the current demographic patterns hold, population will undoubtedly shift to relieve the density, and as more Arabs migrate into the region, Israel's military might, including it's nuclear arsenal will mean nothing.

Israel has an annual population growth of 3%, owing much of it to immigration. Just about every nation surrounding Israel(excluding Lebanon) exceeds that. Iran is at an alarming 70 million people already, looking to buck 100 million soon. Demographically speaking, unless something drastic happens, Israel has a chance of being absorbed. Hamas won't have to push Israel into the sea, they'll just simply be bred out.
crybabylu said on Mar 02, 2008....
I am sorry to have to admit it, but if I were Israel....I'd bomb the heck out of them, and be done with it.
D6fer said on Mar 02, 2008....
crybabylu.....I think that day is coming, don't you?
bloc said on Mar 02, 2008....
@cbl
"I'd bomb the heck out of them, and be done with it."

Yes, genocide is an easier way to steal land from people.

@mobil
which attack on which settlement?

Here is one of thousands of examples or our use of force against indians that weren't attacking us.

"At one point, President Jackson told people to kill as many American Bison as possible in order to cut out the Plains Indian's main source of food. At one point, there were fewer than 500 bison left in the Great Plains.[24]"

and more examples

"In the nineteenth century, the incessant westward expansion of the United States incrementally compelled large numbers of Native Americans to resettle further west, often by force, almost always reluctantly. Under President Andrew Jackson, United States Congress passed the Indian Removal Act of 1830, which authorized the President to conduct treaties to exchange Native American land east of the Mississippi River for lands west of the river. As many as 100,000 Native Americans eventually relocated in the West as a result of this Indian Removal policy. In theory, relocation was supposed to be voluntary (and many Native Americans did remain in the East such as the Choctaw who were first to be removed), but in practice great pressure was put on Native American leaders to sign removal treaties. Arguably the most egregious violation of the stated intention of the removal policy was the Treaty of New Echota, which was signed by a dissident faction of Cherokees but not the elected leadership. The treaty was brutally enforced by Jackson, which resulted in the deaths of an estimated four thousand Cherokees on the Trail of Tears."
crybabylu said on Mar 02, 2008....
bloc----Israel has tried the other way and tried...and tried...and tried.....the other side doesn't want peace without the anialtion (sp?) of Israel, so if it is a fight of survival, so be it!
bloc said on Mar 02, 2008....
have they tried to leave ALL illegal settlements?
crybabylu said on Mar 02, 2008....
Tell me again, bloc, how come they are illegal? Oh yeah, the neighbor in the dumpster analagy again.....oh yeah!
Trinov said on Mar 02, 2008....
Hi, anyone want to read my blog on the 15 seconds people have to get to a safe spot?

Okay, the word holocaust here is something I object to. The Holocaust offering in the Temple meant that the sacrifice was entirely consumed, and not shared out among the Priests and the donors. It was used for the genocide of over 6 million Jews in WWII, and should be used re the genocide of the Armenian people by the Turks also--about 2 million of the Armenians. It should not be used lightly as a term that causes people to get excited about something. That is called propoganda.

Anyone who wants to read about what is going on from our point of view, should try Arutz 7 (Channel 7), The Jerusalem Post, and Ynet on line. Nobody else in the world gives what is going on here. I just read that finally, they are talking about a major strike, why only now is another story, it should have been months ago.

Living under shelling is not pleasant. When I was a young woman on kibbutz, we could survive that type of life, for a kibbutz is organized and run as a military type unit when necessary. Shelters are available, children are safe underground, both in school and at night. It is frightening, it wears you down, it is inhuman, you could get killed in a very nasty fashion, but some kibbutzim lived that way for about 15 years a generation ago.

But living in a city, as in Kiryat Shmoneh --under shelling for most of the 40 years I have known it, is hell. Sderot is living in hell. I remember such a simple thing as having a dentist appointment--in Kiryat Shmoneh (better than the army dentist I thought who forgot how to procede in the middle of a tooth extraction) when the shelling started. The dentist continued, dentists are wierd anyway. We both could have been filled with shrapnel and died a very unpleasant death.

The Hamas has boasted that they use googleearth to target the areas they want to hit. And they get feedback from the media, something my generation knew never to give --Hey Shimon, they just missed us by three meters to the left and ...... get the picture? And what do they target? School buildings. Then the residents of Gaza give out candy to celebrate Jewish casualties. They voted in the Hamas, they send their teenagers to be suicide bombers etc, and then they cry we are hurting their children. Give me a break.

And if the Gazans hate us so, why do they insist on bringing their wounded to Israeli hospitals? Wierd but Arabs from states at war with Israel do send people here for treatment sometimes. More than you might think. And they want to work here too, and when they work here they sometimes come back and blow up their former employers' place. Killing other Arabs too. Of course if you don't read the Israeli papers you don't ever hear anything near the truth. Not 5%-- not at all.

And as for demographics, leave that to G-d. Of course some of you don't believe in G-d and think you know better than G-d, tant pis pour vous. That is not my problem. But for those of you who believe in G-d, there are prophesies that the remnants of all 13 Tribes (yes thirteen when you count Ephriam and Menssah and the Levites) will return at the End of Days. And we are in the End of Days according to all the signs. Those Tribes still exist, some knowing who they are and hidden and some with stronger or weaker memories, with some families keeping the secret traditions. I did three years of full time research for a Rabbi and had contact with others doing similar research. There will be plenty of Jews to fill up the Land of Israel when the time comes.

All I want to leave you with the question --and I'm only talking to those with an imagination and an open mind --how would you feel if you had only 15 seconds to get your little ones into a 'safe room' anytime during the day or night. Day after day, night after night, month after month, year after year. And you had to work and serve in the reserves, and go shopping with the fear that you'd have to run when the siren came on, and go to a movie with the same threat, etc.

How would you deal with this, wouldn't you expect your government to do something to put an end to this? Would you really say, but hey, we could actually have to kill some of their civilians in the process, and they are of course more valuable than I am, than my kids are, then my mother is. C'mon. In what war did they worry about the enemy dead? First you take care of yourself. The trouble is that the Israeli army does sacrifice soldiers to prevent civilian casualties. You don't believe me, that's not my problem. But I don't believe in that shit, let them bury their dead, and keep burying their dead, until my people can live in our country without this terror. If you think we have to live this way, hey baby, you eventually will have to live this way too.
D6fer said on Mar 02, 2008....
Wow! Nicely said Trinov! I don't see how anyone could dispute what you are saying. Of course there are those here that will trivialize your experience as "anecdotal" , but I can see the truth when it is presented to me. Bless you and your family!
GrapeKoolaid said on Mar 02, 2008....
So then is the answer just wipe out all the Palestinians? (I know that's not what you're saying, Trinov, but that's what D6 and cblu are saying) Is it not the ultimate irony that the victims of the Holocaust are turning around and bringing the same kind of annihilation down upon another group of people? If that's not hypocrisy, I obviously don't know the meaning of the word. It is indeed a strange world that we live in now when Jews act like Nazis(Though I must say that Zionism does contain a very strong nationalist streak), talk about bringing the Holocaust to the Palestinians, become the monster that they once abhorred.

Clearly that is not the answer.

Like I said somewhere else before, empathy is the ultimate redemptive quality in mankind(Jeez, I feel like a broken record here). The sooner the Israelis and Palestinians learn to break bread together instead of each others heads, the smoother their travel on the "roadmap to peace" will be. The sooner the US cease its favorable treatment and unilateral support to Israel, the quicker will this matter be resolved.

Once again(for the umpteenth time now), death is so easy to deal out and yet, so hard to accept.
crybabylu said on Mar 02, 2008....
Trinov---Btavo! As well as well-stated!
bloc said on Mar 02, 2008....
@cbl
"A number of international bodies, including the United Nations Security Council, the International Court of Justice, the European Union, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch and many legal scholars have characterized the settlements as a violation of international law, but Israel, the Anti-Defamation League, and other legal scholars disagree with this assessment. (See Legal background)"

I agree with the consensus on this one.

trinov has done a great job at humanizing the Israeli side and is right on about it. But that leaves out the humanization of the other side which has suffered equally and both sides have committed many wrongs. When both sides are so clearly committing many wrongs why is it that many of you justify the violence of one side while demonizing the other?

Grape had the right idea.
pickersplock said on Mar 02, 2008....

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part6.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/03/world/main505316.shtml

http://take-a-pen.org/english/Articles/Art04102003.htm

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1423506/posts

While both sides have killed, maimed, and wounded, we cannot justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior.

I was not able to find anything remotely as vile as the Palestinian Jew eating rabbit. Does anyone know of a comparable Israeli children's show?

The violence will not end, unless the teaching of hatred ends.
Trinov said on Mar 02, 2008....
Hi, Israel wants to stay alive, if we had wanted to wipe out the Gazans or half of the middle east, we could have-- and we can if necessary.But that has never been our goal and is certainly not our goal now.

We are still supplying food to Gaza, and there are plenty of Gazan wounded, in our hospitals as I explained before. So don't give me bullshit about comparing us to Nazis! Nazis made sport with Jewish babies with their bayonettes, and systematically murdered my relatives. Anyone who compares us with Nazis --is distorting all truth and history either because they are totally ignorant or because lying is part of their nature.

But our army is called The Israeli Defense Forces. Even in pre-state days our troops acted to defend Jews, not to kill Arabs just to kill Arabs but to fight a just war

Those of you preaching to us, how long would you guys last in the position of being shelled with the 40 missles that came down on Sderot today?

We have a song "The world is all against us. That's an old song. That's what our fathers sang and that's what we are singing..... No matter we'll survive".
bloc said on Mar 02, 2008....
"The violence will not end, unless the teaching of hatred ends."

I couldn't agree more, but I would extend it to say that the violence will not end unless both sides stop demonizing the other sides.
pickersplock said on Mar 02, 2008....

Antisemitism must end as well.
sheltercrow said on Mar 02, 2008....

It's tragic how the victor's rewrite history. Here are some interesting historical pieces...

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushu'a in the place of Tal al- Shuman. There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab Population."

Moshe Dayan, Address to the Technion, Haifa ( as quated in Ha'aretz, 4 April 1969)

"By the end of the 1948 war, hundreds of entire villages had not only been depopulated but obliterated, their houses blown up or bulldozed. While many of the sites are difficult of access, to this day the observant traveler of Israeli roads and highways can see traces of their presence that would escape the notice of the casual passerby: a fenced-in area, often surmounting a gentle hill, of olive and other fruit trees left untended, of cactus hedges and domesticated plants run wild. Now and then a few crumbled houses are left standing, a neglected mosque or church, collapsing walls along the ghost of a village lane, but in the vast majority of cases, all that remains is a scattering of stones and rubble across a forgotten landscape."

W. Khalidi, All That Remains

al-Khalisa now renamed Kiryat Shmoneh

Israeli occupation date: May 11, 1948

Israeli military operation: Operation Yiftach (commanded by the ethnic cleansing champion Yigal Allon)

Israeli attacking brigade: The Palmach's First Battalion

Village defenders: Local Palestinian militia

Israeli acts of terror: Massacre occurred by Jewish troops against the town's inhabitants.

Exodus Cause: Haganah 'Whispering' campaign (psychological warfare)

Village remains: after destruction by Israelis the village has been mostly destroyed with exception of the village school, a British Mandate government's office, and the village mosque.

Ethnic cleansing by Israelis al-Khalisa: inhabitants were completely ethnically cleansed.

On 11 May 1948, the Haganah rejected al-Khalisa's request for an "agreement". Villagers fled from their homes after hearing news of the fall of Safad and sought refuge in Hunin, the village militia remained for a few days, until it was heavily shelled. Eventually, the villagers were displaced to Lebanon. In later weeks, a few of them decided to return in order to dig up money they had buried in their land, or to harvest some of their tobacco and grain. They reported that the Israeli forces had burned and destroyed many of the houses. The settlement of Qiryat Shemona was established in 1950 on the village site. Stone rubble from the houses marks the site. The school and the Mandate government's office buildings stand abandoned, as does the village mosque and the minaret. The level land surrounding the site is cultivated by the settlement of Qiryat Shemona.

Land ownership before occupation

Arab: 10,773

Jewish: 0
mobil said on Mar 02, 2008....

@bloc, that would have been General _______ shit I can't think of his name. He's the little short caverly General of Civil War fame. Anyway it was he who said that about killing off the buffalo not President Jackson.

Jackson wasn't around at the later date when all that was going on. Jackson was President just after Lewis and Clark made their famous overland journey.
bloc said on Mar 02, 2008....
@mobil

There are a lot of conflicting stories about it and contradictory claims. It's one of those cases where the government and military try to hide the brutality of war from the civilians. Many in the military seemed to have opposed the killing of the bison and the government tried to deny that they were doing it at first (sounds like little has changed doesn't it). They claimed at first that their indian allies (they convinced some tribes to help them fight the other tribes) had done it then later admitted to it but it's still unclear who exactly was responsible for it.

Are you thinking of general sherman or maybe sheridan?
TinSoldier said on Mar 02, 2008....

Um... If the current demographic patterns hold, population will undoubtedly shift to relieve the density, and as more Arabs migrate into the region, Israel's military might, including it's nuclear arsenal will mean nothing.

Israel has an annual population growth of 3%, owing much of it to immigration. Just about every nation surrounding Israel(excluding Lebanon) exceeds that. Iran is at an alarming 70 million people already, looking to buck 100 million soon. Demographically speaking, unless something drastic happens, Israel has a chance of being absorbed. Hamas won't have to push Israel into the sea, they'll just simply be bred out.

Yes, and that is one of the things that scares the nation of Israel to death. The whole point is to have a "Jewish" state, even if that state does contain non-Jewish citizens. As long the state is Jewish in character (that is majority).

I sometimes have problems with this, but I realize that the relative melting pot of the US is the exception rather than the rule.

Anyway, to answer the question:

First, no, since Israel is in Palestine. Why would they destroy it? Duh.

Second, less tongue-in-cheek, no Israel should not destroy the people who identify themselves as Palestinians. Despite the constant attacks on and refusal to recognize Israel by a violent minority supported by a slim majority of Palestinians, the Israelis should continue to move towards a two-state solution (even if that wasn't in the original deal) and also deal harshly with those who use violence to achieve their objectives.
sheltercrow said on Mar 02, 2008....

Israel is a Zionist state. It's a strange term used by all sorts of koko's but there is no denying that it was created by a Zionist organization. If you want to understand it's politics study it's Zionist creation myths.

Tin what are you talking about when you say "as more Arabs migrate into the region"?
Trinov said on Mar 03, 2008....
Hi, yes certain Arab villages were destroyed. Many of them exactly on the borders. We have a right to defend ourselves from constant infiltrators who come to kill and are helped by other arabs, sometimes by threat. Infiltrators were a constant phenomenon in the early days as well as today

The Arabs were told, by the Arab Armies in 1948 to leave so that these Arab armies, which were situated on all the borders of the nascent state of Israel except the sea, would be free to attack civilians without discrimation. The Arabs living here were told to get out to facilitate the genocide of the Jews. Those that did-- left their villages for the most part . Ben Gurion called for them to stay put. Those who stayed, now have villages and towns which are have grown tremendously in some cases, under Israeli rule, and have better housing for the most part than Israeli towns, which are built with hi-risers and block after block, whereas the Arabs have private houses or three or four family buildings.

The Arabs in Tzfat were a murderous bunch, they butchered their Jewish neighbors, clients, teachers, students etc (for Tzfat was a mixed town) with axes in 1929, when the British Mandate overseers did nothing at all to stop them.

The British Mandate for the Jews was supposed to be on both sides of the Jordan, but they unilaterally created the state of Jordan and made a king out of one of the Hussaini family --if I remember-- from Egypt, for political reasons. The British expected the Jews to be slaughtered and faciliated this by giving the arabs arms and their police stations, when they left, which were generally fortified and commanded the cities from a physical position. They expected to return after the slaughter of the Jews they tried to keep unarmed. America joined in the boycot of arms for the HaGana and they allowed the English to tap the phones of the Jews and the Irish in America. My father, a WWII combat seargent (medals he had too) helped smuggle arms out of America, together with the Irish who were smuggling arms into Ireland in their war against the British. Since my father is gone these thirty years I can say this publicly. I was not told any names.

There was no palestine state ever, 'palestine' was a name given by the Romans when they conquered Yehuda and murdered 2 million Jews and enslaved and exiled the rest. They wanted to erase us, so they changed the name to something resembling the Philistines, which means simply invaders in Semitic languages. During the time Jews were not in control here, we still had cities such as Tzfat, and many towns and villages such as Corazin, which lasted until the early 1900's. The town of Pekin, has had Jewish residents straight since the First Temple period in spite of wars, persecution etc. Most of the land was swamp and or rock outgrowths when the Jews started to return and reclaim the land for farming. Read Mark Twain's account of what he saw here in the 19th century. The book should be available in any real library.

Most of the 'palestinian refugees' of today were not from this area at all, but were refugees from poverty who took advantage of the UN's generousity to those who had left here to facilitate our murder. The UN's role has been disgusting in this controversy. Recently there was an article by a Saudi, who said that the Arab policy of keeping the refugees in camps was wrong and that they should have followed Israel's example and integrated these Arabs into their societies, as Israel integrated the Jewish refugees who were exiled from North Africa and other Arab lands.( The British faciliated and initiated the movement of the poor of Syria into the Mandate area meant for Jews by the League of Nations, while preventing Jewish refugees from Europe to come here--many of those who tried to come here died in the death camps. The US also denied most of those who applied for visas and turned back one ship which reached the US--most of those aboard died in the death camps)

Jews who had been living in North Africa centuries before the Arab conquest were expelled -without their money or the value of their property, when Israel was 'created'. Hundreds of thousands of them came to Israel and lived in tent cities or improvised shacks. They were not treated as well as they should have been, but that is another story. Today most of the population of Israel comes from these real refugees.

I want to say something again about using phrases or names such as Nazis --in false contexts. I have to apologize to wh ever used it, for now I realize that most of you are two generations younger than I am, and have not been taught history except for Social Studies and have little understanding of WWII.

Most of you do not know that the town of Rotterdam was razed by the Nazis, upon its inhabitants and causing their deaths, to terrorize the Europeans, even after Rotterdam surrended. Most of you have never heard of what happened to the English town of Coventry, --hopefully those in England have? Read up on it please.

Most of you don't know that the Nazis intended the genocide of Jews and Gypsies and the retarded of all 'races' and the enslavement of all who were not 'Aryan'. They used mass terror as a weapon. They rounded up Jews, telling them that they would be deported to labor camps where they could survive, and then when they arrived they separated those who could be worked to death and sent the others, the middle-aged and elderly, the children and the babies, the young teenagers to immediate death by suffocation in what they told them were 'shower rooms'. Then they cremated the bodies. In some places they did not immediately cremate the bodies but made soap and lampshades from the human skin. Etc.

I've read about 30 biographies of those that miraculously survived the work to death and the extermination camps. If you are honest and want to use the term Nazi correctly, read one or two biographies or at least an honest history of the time. There were Catholic priests and Protestant clergy also imprisoned in some of these camps, as were communists and those rare good Germans with the guts to protest the Nazis-- who had taken the souls of the majority of the population of that time in Germany and Austria. If you hate Jews, so read the Christian biographies.

For those of you who believe that all sides of a conflict are wrong, I could suggest that you read some history. Where the British wrong in shooting down the Nazi bombers in WII? Shouldn't they have welcomed the Germans to take over London?
as they had taken over Paris? Then there would have been no conflict, just a conquered England.

If the concept is still not clear to those of you raised in relitivism then how about Harry Potter? Were Harry and Ron and Dumbledor's army just as wrong as the Death Eaters? Should they have let the Ministry of Magic (last volume) murder all the muggle born witches and war locks so that there would not be a conflict (what a dirty word, right?)

If the parable of Harry Potter and his war with evil does not help you realize that not everything is relative, if you cannot understand that there can be a side that is trying to survive versus a side that is trying to murder and murder and has no real goals (Aza was left to itself, it they had wanted a real country they would have invested in agriculture, in education, etc and not in a terrorist army)--if you cannot understand that calling us Nazis is obscene, a total distortion of the term, then I give up on you. The next time you meet a robber or a rapist just give in, you don't want to be a Nazi, right. Conflict is wrong no matter why, huh?--or have you begun to get the picture? Read some history, some books should still be on the shelves. Or if you still don't get it, to paraphrase another Soulcaster, go out an buy yourself a kafia.

ALIENated said on Mar 03, 2008....

Cowboys and indians. Arabs and Jews. Manifest Destiny. These are arguements
with no end, and hardly ever very rational. What happened to the indians in
America was bad, in general, and how the indians responded was bad, in
general. That is all we have, generalities. The indians were beaten down by
technology, of that there is little doubt. We are all being beaten down by 
technology today. No doubt people in the future will argue about our demise
from a loftier perch. When it is happening, as it is now, those involved just
view it as life, the stuggle of making it from one day to the next. In the final
analysis, there were good cowboys and bad cowboys, good indians and bad
indians. The rest is just personal opinion. Jew and Arabs is a little more 
complicated. I would pick the side not sending out suicide bombers as the 
good guys. However, we have to be careful about who we lump in with who,
which is what perpetuates the arguement. Black and white is so much easier
than black, white, and a thousand shades of grey. I would be more likely to
go after leaders, not just blow the hell out of everything. Breathing second
hand radiation is not all that pleasant no matter where you live or who you
think is right.

sheltercrow said on Mar 03, 2008....

    o                   o
     \                  /

   /                      \
----------------------
And lo - there spoke a voice as if from an alien god
TinSoldier said on Mar 03, 2008....
sheltercrow -- I was quoting.
sheltercrow said on Mar 03, 2008....
Trinov: Shame on you for being a If you go back to this post "Israel's Right To Exist".... where you placed a comment you will find that I debunked your drivel. Do I have to do the same here?
sheltercrow said on Mar 03, 2008....

Trinov: These are simply made up... Shame on you.

1. "The Arabs were told by the Arab Armies in 1948 to leave so that these Arab armies... would be free to attack civilians without discrimation. The Arabs living here were told to get out to facilitate the genocide of the Jews."

2. "The Arabs in Tzfat were a murderous bunch, they butchered their Jewish neighbors, clients, teachers, students etc (for Tzfat was a mixed town) with axes in 1929, when the British Mandate overseers did nothing at all to stop them."

3. "The British Mandate for the Jews was supposed to be on both sides of the Jordan..."

There was a "British Mandate of Palestine" not "The British Mandate for the Jews"

At the 1920 San Remo conference of the Allied Supreme Council, at which the Mandates were granted, the precise boundaries of all territories, including that of the British Mandate of Palestine, were left unspecified, to "be determined by the Principal Allied Powers" and were not completely finalized until four years later. However, it was clear that the boundary of Britain's mandate for Palestine was to extend eastward to the western boundary of its mandate for Mesopotamia. As drafted at the San Remo Conference, the British Mandate of Palestine comprised territory in modern-day Jordan, Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. In 1921, the Transjordan (later Jordan) was split off to be administered separately, a move formalized by the addition of a September 1922 clause to the charter governing the Mandate for Palestine.

Shall I go on? I'd be delighted to do the research. These assertions and the rest of your drivel are so easy to refute.
mobil said on Mar 03, 2008....

@bloc yeah General Phil Sheridan, he said this in Texas in the late nineteenth century, no about 1870.

It didn't take much to get the Indians to fight there own, even ones of the same tribe bloc. The offer of a rifle and a pony and a chance to ride the plains. They Indians tracked down their own family members for the US Army.

This whole thing is much deeper than you make it, one has to read extensivly to have a good understanding of it, and it's obvious you haven't done that.
sheltercrow said on Mar 03, 2008....

Trinov: "something resembling the Philistines, which means simply invaders in Semitic languages."

Wrong again. If you don't know then you shouldn't lie your way through.

Philistine: Etymology

The etymology of the word into English is from Old French Philistin, from Late Latin Philistinus, from Late Greek Philistinoi, from Hebrew P'lishtim, (See, e.g., 1 Samuel 17:26, 17:36; 2 Samuel 1:20; Judges 14:3), "people of P'lesheth" ("Philistia"); cf. Akkadian Palastu, Egyptian Palusata; the word probably is the people's name for itself. Although quite often a popular Hebrew etymology of the name Philistine has been suggested that links it with the semitic root p-l-sh (Hebrew: פלש‎) which means to divide, go through, to roll in, cover or invade, with a possible sense in this name as "migrant" or "invader", there is no basis for this claim, since the Egyptian rendering of the name "prst" appears along with other non-Semitic names of the Sea Peoples, and there is no reason to assume that the Philistines have a Semitic name for their group. On the other hand, an interesting etymology has been suggested in the past by Jones, who suggests that the name Philistine is a corruption of the Greek "phyle histia" ("tribe of the hearth", with the Ionic spelling of "hestia"), and suggests that they were responsible for introducing the fixed hearth to the Levant. Very interestingly, this suggestion was raised before the archaeological evidence for the use of the hearths was documented at Philistine sites.
sheltercrow said on Mar 03, 2008....
Tin: if you look here you will find that most non-Zionist researchers and sources don't buy the migration story. They specifically mention that it is probably Israeli Zionist propaganda. "Israel's Right To Exist"....
TinSoldier said on Mar 03, 2008....
I don't "buy" the migration story. I was quoting.

For me, the idea is more one of birthrate. Maybe I misquoted.
bloc said on Mar 03, 2008....
@mobil
I think I have read much about it, after all I knew which general you were talking about ;)
sheltercrow said on Mar 03, 2008....

The British expected the Jews to be slaughtered and [facilitated] this by giving the [Arabs] arms and their police stations, when they left, which were generally fortified and commanded the cities from a physical position. They expected to return after the slaughter of the Jews they tried to keep unarmed.

This is too much the British actually gave the Israelis the police stations. While I get the sources to correct this distortion let's take a real look at terrorists in Palestine at the time. The Irgun, Lehi Stern gangs.

Timeline of Zionist Terror by UN committee
Thursday Nov 27th, 2003 4:20 PM

Deir Yassin massacre
sheltercrow said on Mar 03, 2008....
1948 United Nations Report On Israeli Terror

The Document... Covers The Period From 1944 - 1948 Palestine

When the value of oil was seen in 1905, the Zionists discovered their ancestors came from the Mideast, and not Khazaria. In 1917, as a reward for drawing the US into WW1, a Lord Balfour gave Palestine to the Zionists

The British sent troops to Palestine to limit Jewish immigration, and to protect the Arabs. When the Jews had suitable numbers in 1944 they started a terror campaign to drive the British out.
Trinov said on Mar 04, 2008....
Trinov said about 2 hours ago.... Hello. Just for the record for those who are capable of rational thought out there, there was a woman who was a supporter of the PLO. She was granted access to the records of the British government for they liked her political orientation. What they didn't realize, was that unlike some people, she was very honest and had not emotional agenda. She spent 5 years and came out with a book that refuted all the Arab claims of being here in a well developed land before the Jews came back as a movement. The name of the book is From Time Immemorial, by Joan Peters, originally Harper and Row, 1984 The Christian Century said : The most thoroughly researched and solidly documented work on the origins of the Arab-Israeli conflict...a book that smashes conventional wisdom... unassailable in its thoroughness." The New York Times said: "The massive research Ms Peters did...would have daunted Hercules. In the course of it she turned up a great deal of interesting material from Ottoman records, the reports of Western consular officers and observant travelors and other sources." The Washington Post Book World said :" A remarkable document in itself...The refugees are not the problem but the excuse." The National Review said: "The great service provided here by Mrs. Peters--if only attention is paid--is to lay a groundwork for peace by clearing away the farrogo of lies.." The Los Angeles Times said: " The reader comes away not only rethinking the Middle East refugee problem, but also the extent to which propoganda can be swallowed whole for lack of information." Angier Biddle Duke former Ambassador to Morroco:"This book facinatingly shatters the presistent myths surrounding the contemporary concept of an Arab homeland that bases its legitmacy on ancient roots in the Middle East. .." This should give you an idea of how well respected the book was when it came out. We got a copy. When a few years later I found that the book was out of print while looking for a redundancy copy so we could lend it out, I called the publisher and they said that the book had been bought out by Random House. When I called Random House re getting a copy I got this chilling message: "Do you think that we bought the book to publish it?" I must admit that even I was shocked. But it has been re-published since then, after years of not being available. I can give quotes from this book, but anyone who wants to have a fact based opinion should try to get a hold a copy, it may be in the larger university libraries who buy everything that is published and then only shelve what is requested. But the books purchased are usually listed in the electronic catalogues and can be requested when found. Trinov said about 1 hour ago.... Hello, my religion and my beliefs --well many of the prophesies have already come true-- already. I'm actually collecting evidence of the growing incidents that fit the psalmic punishments. For people who hate Jews and G-d, or don't believe in G-d, or have a personal agenda of support for the Arabs no matter what, I can't do too much. But for those who don't have an agenda, and are open to G-d in history, recent history well I may have some interesting things to share. I am an Israeli, and a Jew from the First Temple exile, whose family had lived in an area that was Muslim ruled. I have no personal hate for anyone,(except for active enemies and that is healthy) and believe the prophesy that in the very end of the End of Days, the Arabs will be able to be friends with the Jews, just as their ancestor Yismael eventually reconciled with his father Avraham and his half brother Yitzchak. Obviously this will take a while and maybe a war or two before this happens, but it will happen for we have a saying The actions of the fathers are a sign for the children-meaning that the actions of the peoples should follow their ancestors For those with their own anti-Israel, anti-Jewish agenda, I have no reason to waste breathe on them, for they believe their own lies. Obviously, this person here who supposedly is a disinterested individual, is not. He has an agenda and possibly is even paid for all that effort, or if not he is a dedicated supporter of lies. Anyone who is interested enough to have an opinion on the Middle East should at least skim through Joan Petor's From Time Immemorial. I say skim for it is a gigantic book, written with a love of truth, for Joan Peters started out as a supporter of the PLO and the rights of the poor palestinians. But she was that rare honest individual who let truth guide her, and not her friends or her agenda. May she be blessed. send to a friend del.icio.us Digg reddit
Trinov said on Mar 04, 2008....
Hi, Phlishtim, comes from Polesh PLSh which means to invade. I'm a Hebrew speaker and a Hebrew teacher by the way. Wrote a text too.
Trinov said on Mar 04, 2008....
Oh, as I mentioned before, Jews have never left this land, Pekin is a village in the Galil where a Jewish family had resided from the First Temple Period and still resides there. Tzfat has been a city since the Second Temple, there are other villages which are existing, inspite of the many invasions and the Crusades, from the second Temple period at least. One of them is Corazin, that managed to survive, first as a city in the Byzantine period, as a town in the middle ages and as a poor fishing village up until the early 1900's. It has standing buildings from all three periods, and the roofless remains of a very fancy synagogue of the Byzantine period.

As for the Khazars, they did join our people, and some of them came to Eastern Europe, Baskir for instance is a Khazaris name, he was one of my father's bosses in the 1950's. But most of the Khazaries are still found in villages along the route of the Don River. If anyone can read Hebrew a thorough study of the Khuzaris was made in the 1920's : Hamityadim, Zvi Casdai, published in the Land of Israel, under the British Mandate, 1926, by Yeshuron publishers. I believe that I read it and copied it from either the Columbia Library or the Library of the Jewish Theological Seminary in Upper Manhattan, under 893.15/K15

There is a famous Khazari immigrant who had a farm in the Galil, he had reconverted before he made 'aliyah' I think it is now a museum.

The Khazars, like the ancestors of the Bulgarians, had previous Jewish customs, such as keeping Kosher and Shabbat. The Khazaris therefore were only re-converting, but saying that all European Jews come from the Khazars is total bullshit like all of your propoganda. .

When the Bulgarians took up Christianity, the Pope at the time sent many letters to the king of the time, warning him that Christians rejected keeping Shabbat and Keeping Kosher. I have copies of this-- but I do have other things to do. with my life.

Who is paying you crow? to spend all your time disseminating nonsence? The Saudis? The Emirates? They certainly have money to throw around. They could have spent a lot more money on the poor refugees, but decided that these refugees were a good tool when they were relatively poor and unhappy. Have you spent time in the palatial hotels of the Emirates?
sheltercrow said on Mar 04, 2008....
Trinov: Have you lost your fucking mind altogether?
sheltercrow said on Mar 04, 2008....
Chomsky and Finkelstein on Joan Peters' From Time Immemorial
In 1984 a book by one Joan Peters was published, From Time Immemorial: The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict over Palestine. The thesis of this book is that when the state of Israel came into existence Palestine was largely unpopulated, except for a few Jews who had been there for many centuries; just a desert really, made to bloom by the ingenuity and hard work of Jews who subsequently arrived. Consequently the Palestinians we find there today must have arrived recently, freeloaders, no doubt attracted by the modern state built by the efforts of said hard-working Jews. And consequently Israel has a right to send them back where they came from.

The book is available from Amazon. On Amazon's web pages for this book there are currently 41 reviews. Five stars (the maximum) are awarded by 26 of the 41 reviewers. Here are some of their comments:
- "The classic work on The Jewish Settlement of Palestine. This is the classic book that explodes the myths surrounding the establishment of a Jewish State in Israel." — Seth J. Frantzman
- "This book is undoubtedly one of the best books on the middle east conflict." — muha415
- "This is the best book on the middle east crisis bar none. It is concise and factual and written from a completely impartial prospective [sic]." — Helene
- "Ms Peters ... has dug deep to discover the truth concerning the major issues in the Arab-Israel conflict." — Rabbi Noach Zaner
- "From Time Immemorial is a treasure trove of carefully documented information." — npabooks
- "I truly believe that this is one of the classic books on the the subject ...well researched, well written." — Joshua Wander
In fact, the book is rubbish. It was exposed as a fraud by several critics, including Norman Finkelstein (whose exposé is included in Blaming the Victims, edited by Edward Said and Christopher Hitchens, also available via Amazon) and later Oxford University's Albert Hourani.

Finkelstein is discussed in Noam Chomsky's The Fate of an Honest Intellectual (an excerpt from his 2002 book Understanding Power). Here are some quotes from that article:

From Time Immemorial ... was a big scholarly-looking book with lots of footnotes, which purported to show that the Palestinians were all recent immigrants ... And it was very popular — it got literally hundreds of rave reviews, and no negative reviews: the Washington Post, the New York Times, everybody was just raving about it. Here was this book which proved that there were really no Palestinians! Of course, the implicit message was, if Israel kicks them all out there's no moral issue, because they're just recent immigrants who came in because the Jews had built up the country. ... That was the big intellectual hit for that year: Saul Bellow, Barbara Tuchman, everybody was talking about it as the greatest thing since chocolate cake. Well, one graduate student at Princeton, a guy named Norman Finkelstein, started reading through the book. He was interested in the history of Zionism, and as he read the book he was kind of surprised by some of the things it said. He's a very careful student, and he started checking the references — and it turned out that the whole thing was a hoax, it was completely faked: probably it had been put together by some intelligence agency ...

Finkelstein's very persistent: he took a summer off and sat in the New York Public Library, where he went through every single reference in the book — and he found a record of fraud that you cannot believe. Well, the New York intellectual community is a pretty small place, and pretty soon everybody knew about this, everybody knew the book was a fraud ...

Well, as soon as I heard that the book was going to come out in England, I immediately sent copies of Finkelstein's work to a number of British scholars and journalists who are interested in the Middle East — and they were ready. As soon as the book appeared, it was just demolished, it was blown out of the water. Every major journal, the Times Literary Supplement, the London Review, the Observer, everybody had a review saying, this doesn't even reach the level of nonsense, of idiocy. ...

Anyhow, by that point the American intellectual community realized that the Peters book was an embarrassment, and it sort of disappeared — nobody talks about it anymore.

Except, that is, for Zionists who post rave reviews about it on Amazon's web site.
sheltercrow said on Mar 04, 2008....
Prove this...

The Khazars, like the ancestors of the Bulgarians, had previous Jewish customs, such as keeping Kosher and Shabbat. The Khazaris therefore were only re-converting, but saying that all European Jews come from the Khazars is total bullshit like all of your propoganda.

There was no "re-converting" of the Khazars.

Khazaria also known as Khazar khaganate or Khazar khanate was the country of the Khazars, neighboring the Byzantine Empire in the southwest, Kievan Rus' in the northwest, Volga Bulgaria in the north, and Azerbaijan in the southeast. These Turkic people adopted Judaism in the 8th or 9th century, becoming the only Jewish state ever without Abrahamic ascendence.

As an independent state, Khazaria existed between about 652 and 1016. Its supreme ruler was known by the title khagan. Its last khagan was named Georgius Tzul. Much of Khazaria was covered by steppe land. Khazaria bordered the Caspian Sea and Black Sea. The Volga River (known as Itil or Atil) passed through eastern Khazaria.

Under the leadership of kings Bulan and Obadiah, the standard rabbinical form of the Jewish religion spread among the Khazars. King Bulan adopted Judaism in approximately the year 838, after supposedly holding a debate between representatives of the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim faiths. The Khazar nobility and many of the common people also became Jews. King Obadiah later established synagogues and Jewish schools in Khazaria. The books of the Mishnah, Talmud, and Torah thus became important to many Khazars. Saint Cyril came to Khazaria in 860 in a Byzantine attempt to convert the Khazars to Christianity, but he was unsuccessful in converting them away from Judaism. He did, however, convince many of the Slavs to adopt Christianity. By the 10th century, the Khazars wrote using Hebrew letters. The major Khazar Jewish documents from that period were written in the Hebrew language. The Ukrainian professor Omeljan Pritsak estimated that there were as many as 30,000 Jews in Khazaria by the 10th century. In 2002, the Swedish numismatist Gert Rispling discovered a Khazar Jewish coin.
sheltercrow said on Mar 04, 2008....

Most of the Jews in Bulgaria were Sephardic, descended from Spanish Jews who spoke Hebrew or Ladino (a Judeo-Spanish dialect). A much smaller number were Ashkenazi, with Yiddish-speaking ancestors. However, very few Jews in postcommunist Bulgaria remembered their ancestral languages, and frequent mixed marriages further diluted feelings of Jewish identity. The Jews of Bulgaria assimilated easily into Bulgarian society, partly because they traditionally lived in cities and worked as tradesmen or financiers

The fate of the Bulgarian Jews during World War II was a source of Bulgarian pride. The approximately 50,000 Jews then living in Bulgaria had long been well integrated into the fabric of Bulgarian city life. Because of this integration, neither society in general nor Tsar Boris III was inclined to follow the anti-Jewish policies of Bulgaria's Nazi ally.

The Bulgarians were not descended from the Jews...

The easternmost South Slavs became part of the ancestors of the modern Bulgarians, which however, are genetically clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the most Slavic peoples. This phenomenon is explained by “the genetic contribution of the people who lived in the region before the Slavic expansion”. The frequency of the proposed Slavic Haplogroup R1a1 ranges to only 14.7% in Bulgaria.

The Bulgars were a seminomadic people thought to have spoken a Turkic language, who during the 2nd century migrated from Central Asia into the North Caucasian steppe. Between 377 and 453 they took part in the Hunnic raids on Central and Western Europe. After Attila's death in 453, and the subsequent disintegration of the Hunnic Empire, the Bulgar tribes dispersed mostly to the eastern and southeastern parts of Europe. In the late 7th century, some Bulgar tribes, led by Asparukh and others, led by Kouber, permanently settled in the Balkans, and formed the ruling classe of First Bulgarian Empire in 680-681. The Asian genetic inflow by modern Bulgarians, probably introduced from the Bulgars and other steppe's peoples who also contributed to the Bulgarian ethnogenesis, as numbers of Kumans, Pechenegs and Avars is indicated trough the limited presence of some rare alleles and haplotypes.

Most Bulgarians are at least nominally members of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church founded in 870 AD (autocephalous since 927 AD). The Bulgarian Orthodox Church is the independent national church of Bulgaria like the other national branches of Eastern Orthodoxy and is considered an inseparable element of Bulgarian national consciousness. The church has been abolished twice during the periods of Byzantine (1018—1185) and Ottoman (1396—1878) domination but was revived every time as a symbol of Bulgarian statehood. In 2001, the Bulgarian Orthodox Church had a total of 6,552,000 members in Bulgaria (82.6% of the population) and between one and two million members in the diaspora. The problem with the allegiance of the Orthodox Bulgarian minorities in Serbia, Romania, Moldova and Ukraine has not yet been settled and Bulgarians in those countries still hold allegiance to the respective national orthodox churches.
Trinov said on Mar 04, 2008....
From "Bulgaria and Her Jews, The History of a Dubious Symbiosis, by Vicki Tamir, Sepher Hermon Press, Yeshiva U NY

"For centuries Bulgaria was free of any anti-semitism despite the persistent efforts of neighboring Byzantium to contaminate the Slavic populare with theological Judeophopia. A curious affinity for Judaism, first exhibited by the proto-Bulgars survived in Bulgaria long after the nation's Christianization. There are no records of anti-Jewish manifestations, before the 14th century, when King Ivan Aleksandur, married to Jewess Sara/Theodora, convolved a holy synod against Christian heretics and Jews..

"... and amalgum of Romaniots, Ashkenazim and Iberian exiles, Bulgarian Jewry developed a psychology all its own.

"...that the Khazars and the proto-Bulgars...speaking the same language, and wearing the same dress...There is compelling evidence that as paruckh's army was neither ignorant nor averse to Jewish religious practices, which were effectively established by 740, according to Dunlop. Jewish authors believe that a significant number of Bulgars were already Judaized before settling in Moesia..."

"....the proto-Bulgarsl...related to the Khazars. This has been establishe conclusively by Dunlapp from accounts by the Syriac historians Michuel Syrus and Bar Hebreous and from information provided by the Greek writer Theophylact Simocatta (620)

"hortly after they conquered the lands south of the Danube, the Bulgars were absorbed by the numerically and culturally superior local Slavs who inclined to view the invaders as allies rather than enemies...

"Answers of Pope Nicholas I written in 866 in response to King Boris' inquires in the wake of Patriarch Photius admonition. While the questions themselves have not survived , the pope's answers , preserved in the Vatican library are more than convincing for our purposes.

"The answer to question 10 reads as follows: " You wish to know whether working on Saturday is permitted. On this matter our frequently quoted Pope Gregory told the Romans :" News has reached me that some perverted people in your midst ideas contrary to the spirit of the holy faith, prohibiting any work on Saturday....." To warrant explicit papal pronouncement a large number of people must have insisted on continuing observance after Christianisation.

" A most curious , if vestigial and protean survival of the Mosaic ordinance can be found in the still professed belief among Bulgarian peasants that persons born on the Sabbath, called subotnitsi (from the Bulgarian Subota for Shabbath) are worthy of great respect and bring joy and happiness to their families. The superstition extends to cattle, horses, and dogs born on the Sabbath. In fact, all supernatural creatures, such as talasum (hobgoblins) samodies (fairies) and gnomes, ghosts, and elves suspend their evil and capricious activities on Saturday....Similarly, innumerous folk ballards woven around the plague that struck the population in the 18th and 19th centuries speak of one sole deterrejt to the pestilence (portrayed as a hideous old woman) dogs bor on the Sabbath..

"Another Jewish practice which had found its way into the pre-Christian Bulgarian ethos is revealed by Nicholas' answer 43 concernign the consumption of meat. Here the pope expounds at length on what is good,proper, and Christian to eat, and declares himself categorically against the Pentateuchal prohibition of pork...Since the questions were prepared in the royal court,it would appear, ...that Jewish ritual, as indeed the Scriptures themselves, had infiltrated the nation which had theretofore had no Christian derived cognizance of the Old Testament.

"That the Jewish Bible had exerted great influence on the popular imagination can also be ascertained from numerous Bulgarian fold ballards centering on the Abraham and Issac story. These ballards use the Hebrew word for sacrifice (korban) rather than the Slavic Zhertva. Korban has been in fact incorporated into the Bulgarian language to denote ritual sacrifice, as opposed to other forms of sacrifice."

"Referring to questiojn 40 of King Boris's inquiry, the pope's espistle replies" :You ask whether eating meat of cattle not slaughtered with a knife but killed by the force of human blows is permitted...answer 9, dealing with the number of days during which men and women must obstain from sexual intercourse with their wives after the birth of a son...shows that the Bulgarians had full cognizance of Jewish religious law in general and the stipulations of Leviticus 12-1-8 in particular. Answers 46 and 74--responding as they do to inquiries concerning the head cover of women in the houses of worship, the observance of a fast during a drought, and burial rites for sucidess--also suggest most intimate knowledge of Judaic ritual and tradition on the part of the Bulgarians.

"Last, yet certainly not least in implication is papal answer 104 "You maintain that you know not of some Jew whether he is Christian or pagan, since many within your country have converted." Signally confusing, the pope's quotation could be given a variety of interpretations..."

There is a lot more but I don't have to type the whole book in order to give an answer to the above.

Anyone still with me? But I dislike leaving ignorance unanswered--especially when that ignorance has an evil agenda.

Many times I bring something up that comes from my historical or other readings, and I don't give the quotes. But I usually have the quotes somewhere on some self in some folder. I've been doing reading, looking for the truth for about 53 years. Some folders did get lost, some disks don't hold their electric charges and zap the article is gone. But many times I can find where I took such and such an opinion or observation from. It's almost morning for me.

Trinov said on Mar 04, 2008....
Oh and Joan Peters had no agenda, but some leftist athiest Jews could be in bed with your ilk, for everything you present is propaganda or ignorance etc.

And your vehemence makes me wonder-- if you ever could define 'fucking' from experience or if your possible natal impotance spilled into your whole psyche? There is such as thing as viagra and it might really improve your constitution.

Trinov said on Mar 04, 2008....
From Time Immemorial has not been off the shelves in libraries and it has been back in print: Books › "From Time Immemorial" Showing 1 - 12 of 10,237 Results « Previous|Page:1 2 3 ... |Next » 1. From Time Immemorial: The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict over Palestine by Joan Peters (Paperback - Feb 1, 2001) Buy new: $18.95 45 Used & new from $8.95 Get it by Thursday, Mar 6 if you order in the next 19 hours and choose one-day shipping. Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping. (67) Other Editions: Hardcover 3. From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters (Paperback - Oct 1985) 10 Used & new from $4.38 Other Editions: Audio Cassette4. FROM TIME IMMEMORIAL. The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict over Palestine. Inscribed by Author by Joan Peters (Hardcover - 1984) 3 Used & new from $29.99

D6fer said on Mar 04, 2008....
shelter.....I can't help but notice.....you cut and paste nearly everything.....Trinov seems to speak from experience and real knowledge......why don't you tell us how you really feel? What should happen to Israel? Be truthful......lets hear your heartfelt opinion.

sheltercrow said on Mar 04, 2008....

Truth: before we get into what I believe let's put this trinov thing to rest.

Trinov is a Zionist. Zionist are notorius historical revisionists. Zionist creation myths have little to do with history. Raja Harish Swamy explains it well here...

Their claims...

center on the notion that there was an ancient “Israel” present in Palestine, which the Jews of Europe are merely “returning” to after a couple of thousand years. If this logic were pursued anywhere else, smart bombs and sanctions would inevitably follow, but Zionism as an ideology is a counterpart of the white supremacist colonizing venture, and thus commands great adherence among westerners enraptured by mythological narratives having little to do with real history, but grand claims quite contrary to real evidence. Ancient Palestine was not the homeland of most European Jews, as Alfred Lilienthal, an anti-Zionist Jew, points out. Khazaria, a state established in Ukraine and Russia was the homeland of most Jewish people of Europe. The Khazar people converted to Judaism in the 8th century, and established a great civilization, but were in turn displaced by Russians moving westward into Europe.

The Zionist claim to Palestine is based on the implicitly racist notion that Palestinian people have no history. Like European colonizers of the last century, the Zionist project is one of denying the history of the people being colonized, so as to deny them political rights. Lilienthal even argues that it could be more likely that Palestinians of today have more genealogical relationship to the ancient people of Palestine than acknowledged by the west. The idea that Jesus was a Palestinian is not merely a slogan.

The Zionist claim to “ancient Israel” is also driven by mythology as Keith Whitelam points out in his book “The invention of ancient Israel and the silencing of Palestinian history".(Routledge, 1997). The silencing of Palestinian history is part of the project of creating the myth of “ancient Israel,” quite comparable to the Hindutva project of creating a mythical “Hindu” past. Both are averse to historical, archaeological, or ethnographic evidence unless it confirms or supports some aspect of their body of presuppositions. The basic nationalist narrative of Zionism contends that the occupation of Palestine mirrors the conquest of Canaan in the biblical narrative. This is based on no evidence except the Bible and anything that lends support to selective ethnocentric interpretations of the Bible. There is a growing body of evidence that the narrow Bible-based interpretation with its pre-configured creation, “ancient Israel,” is only a nationalistic project and not a real historically based study. In the context of Zionism’s racism, this is then nothing less than a racial nationalistic project, seeking to justify and legitimate the colonization and oppression of a people. Many Israeli scholars are themselves questioning the myths of ancient “Israel,” as more material evidence comes in from archaeology, and history. [ed.'s note: see for example Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman. The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of its Sacred Texts (Free Press, 2001)]

Israeli racists and their Zionist friends around the world are terrified at the prospects of being identified with racism, even though they practice it with a fervor reminiscent of the Belgians in 19th century Congo, or British in 18th century India; mythical racial-religious narratives, ideas of racial purity, racial chauvinism, racial hatred towards the indigenous inhabitants of the land, terror inflicted on the “conquered” people, creating race based institutions, stealing more land by invoking the exclusive myths of one faith, as if that is enough to legitimize the invasion and usurpation of another peoples’ lands, dishing out justice to Jews only and injustice to Palestinians only, requiring Palestinians to carry markers of identity just as the Nazis required Jews to carry markers of identity; these are only some of the features of the self-proclaimed “Jewish state,” a racist conception in itself since, 20 percent of the citizens of Israel are actually non Jewish Palestinians.

The racialization of Jewish identity is an outcome of European fascism and Zionism played a central role in assisting Nazism to change the Jewish minority of Germany into a “racial” minority, keeping with Hitler’s assertion that the Jews constituted a separate “nation” which he of course defined in terms of a “race.” There is ample evidence that Zionism was not interested in saving the lives of Jews in Europe as much as it was in usurping Palestine and establishing a “racial” state in Palestine, something accomplished with considerable support and encouragement from the Nazi regime itself. [ed.'s note: see Leni Brenner, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators (Lawrence Hill, 1993); Yehuda Bauer, American Jewry and the Holocaust (Wayne State University Press, 1981); The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals, edited by the Neturei Karta, an organization of anti-Zionist Jews who support the goal of a secular democracy rather than a Jewish state.] These are facts that are terribly inconvenient to the Zionist establishment, because they underline the fundamentally racist character of the ideology of Zionism. To the present day, Zionists are unapologetic in their racism and many statements from leading “lights” of Israel attest to the fact that Israeli Zionism is first and foremost a racist ideology. More evidently, the practice of racism permeates everything including the colonization of Palestinian land, the brutal treatment of Palestinians, including children, and the unapologetic arrogance displayed to critics, reminiscent of the worst racists from Hitler to Botha.

In addition to the racist roots of Zionism, it is also clear that Zionist Israel’s claim to Palestinian land is not at all substantiated by history; the Jewish people of Europe are not descended from the ancient people of Palestine, therefore they are not “returning” to an ancient “homeland.” On the other hand, Palestinians whose lands are being appropriated by the descendants of Khazar Jews of Europe are more likely to be the descendants of the ancient people of the Bible. Secondly, there is a far more complex history involving the ancient Palestinian people, who built a civilization and innovated great religious systems for the world, and whose people at one time spread the faith of their lands all over the world, including Khazaria. It seems far more plausible that ancient Palestinians were the originators of the Jewish religion, then converted to Christianity after the teachings of the Palestinian prophet Jesus, who was executed by the pro imperial clergy on behalf of Rome, and centuries later became some of the first proponents of Islam. The history of these people is being silenced to make way for the silly racist narrative of Zionism which is nothing but a white supremacist narrative belying the long standing European desire to lay claim to Palestine. Palestinian history should not and will not remain silenced. To this end, the intifada must spread into the historical narratives too and myths like that of “ancient Israel” challenged by Palestinian history.

sheltercrow said on Mar 04, 2008....

What I believe:

Israel was the fruition of project of a group of secular Zionist based in England. Zionism is an ideology not a religion. All ideologies are revisionist by definition.

The peoples in Palestine were the victims of that Zionist project. They have had very little freedom to choose the conditions of their lives. Zionism has even used the Holocaust of the Jews to make that project live. A shameful reality.

Trinov is not to be hated but pitied. She says she believes all the revisionist literature without question. Why? A dream come true? Who knows. If she is or was a teacher and clings to these obvious falsehoods she will have to live with the shame of having failed to teach the truth.

The results of that Zionist project are all the graves, some marked, some not, that litter Palestine. To have the results of that inhumane madness in Europe become this inhumane madness in the middle east is not something that a rational person can look away from.

More later...

D6fer said on Mar 04, 2008....
you didn't answer my question.....what should happen to Israel and the Jews?

sheltercrow said on Mar 04, 2008....

I think it is beyond any "what should happen to Israel and the Jews?" question. We have a "fait accompli" situation here as regards the Zionist state of Israel.

The question of "what should happen to... the Jews?" can only be answered in the same manner as "what should happen to the Christians" or "what should happen to the Hindu's". They are to be treated like you would want any other of the peoples of this earth to be treated. That inclusion is in regards to you, me, trinov, and everyone else which includes the other peoples in the middle east.

If one believes in the notions of freedom, justice, equality and democracy for all peoples then there remains very few options.

sheltercrow said on Mar 04, 2008....

JEWS IN BULGARIA: A BRIEF HISTORICAL ACCOUNT

The first Jews appeared in the Balkans as early as the 2nd century, after the conquest of their lands by Rome. This had been recorded on a tombstone found near the town of Nikopol by the Danube river. These Jews were known as Romagnotes.

The Middle Ages

In medieval Bulgaria Jews were concentrated in separate quarters of some of the country's larger cities. There were some very rich, as well as poor people and outcasts among them. It is known, for example, that in the capital city of Turnovo the executioners were Romagnote Jews.

By the criteria of the Middle Ages, the attitude of the Bulgarians to the Jews was more or less tolerant. Towards the mid-14th century, two councils were convened in the metropolis of Veliko Turnovo to deal with the Jews (accused of blasphemy against the Christian Holy Scriptures); but these conventions persecuted to no lesser degree the Bulgarian heretics - Bogomils, Adamites, Barlaamites, etc. Repression was inflicted upon their top leaders only, the punishments involving castigation, branding, banishment, and - very rarely - death penalty.

Sensationally, tzar Ivan Alexander (1331-1371), who arranged these councils, was married to a Jewish woman. She was tzaritza Sarah, mother of the last Bulgarian ruler in the Middle Ages - Ivan Shishman (1371-1396). Before their wedding, she was converted to Christianity and adopted the name of Theodora. It was she who initiated the mentioned councils.

There is no evidence of either Ivan Alexander's marriage, or the enthronement of the "Jewish" Shishman to have provoked any outrages on the part of the Bulgarian society. We may only assume that these events did not delight it either. A similar occurrence in any of the then European countries would have been simply unthinkable. Thus, for example, tzar Ivan Shishman's contemporary, the Polish king Kazimierz III (grandson of a Bulgarian princess, as a matter of fact!), was anathematized by the Pope "only" because he had a Jewish concubine.

After their banishment from Spain

In fact, the really large influx of Jews to the Balkans began after 1492, when they were driven away from Spain. At this particular point, the Turkish sultan allowed the refugees to settle in the Ottoman Empire, and they were tolerantly treated both by the authorities and by the population of the Peninsula as a whole. These migrants came to be known as Sefarades, whose language came from Spanish and who now constitute 90 per cent of the Bulgarian Jews. Besides, the following centuries saw the migration to Bulgaria of Eskenazi Jews, mainly from the German lands; their language, Yiddish, is a German dialect. Unlike the Sefarades, they were received with hostility, which waned with time. The one-time Romagnotes, in turn, were assimilated, without a trace, by these two groups.

It is extremely important to know that in the Balkans Jews met with the rivalry of the local tradesmen and craftsmen - Greeks, Armenians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Wallachians, Turks, etc. Indeed, some Jewish families rose to posts in the sultans' courts and even became their creditors, but generally, the Balkan Jews did not have the strong economic positions characteristic of their contemporaries in other parts of the Continent.

sheltercrow said on Mar 04, 2008....
"Bulgaria and Her Jews, The History of a Dubious Symbiosis"

should be called...

"Bulgaria and Her Jews, a Dubious History of Symbiosis"

Zionists maintain the ridiculous contention that all the peoples of this world are derived from the Jewish stock via the Ark and Noah.

ALIENated said on Mar 05, 2008....

SoulCast Management!!! Please, give us a way to remove posts we have commented on (like this one) from our My Conversations list. I mistakenly keep coming back here and being exposed to all this Nazi hogwash.

ALIENated said on Mar 05, 2008....

And Tinov ... turn your bolding off.
D6fer said on Mar 05, 2008....
I agree alien.....that would be a great feature.....I tried to get shelter to give his real opinion about the jews, but he chickened out and gave a pc response....I think his real view oozes from his words though!
sheltercrow said on Mar 06, 2008....
Dfer: I have no hidden agenda. I have been having a dialog for over 30 years with what history is as opposed to what people want it to be. I have dialogged with almost every ideological nutter you can think off. Rednecks, Christians, Jews, leftwing, rightwing, you name it. I rely mostly on common sense and fact checking. If it sounds hokey it usually is.
Trinov said on Mar 06, 2008....
Hi, sorry about the bold, I thought that I put in the bold only for a word and it seems I forgot the html ending. I'm new at this, --my husband runs a website and tries to give me lots of help but I cannot learn more than one thing at a time if I want to remember it! So now I can paragraph and bold, and I'll try to remember to unbold correctly.

The Germans and the Russians used 'agit prop' --telling a lie over and over and over and people started to believe it. I'm very frightened at the way the American press has followed the British press in consistently ignoring half of what is going on between Israel and the Arabs, making Israel the big bully, while ignoring the fact that we are vastly outnumbered and were twice attacked by all the Arab states at once and may have to face that again.

The BBC and CNN are very similar. "Israel attacks Gaza" They don't bother to say, if at all, what was happening before, about the shellings, the suicide bombs, the sniping that has made life impossible for people in Sderot and now the Kibbutzim and Moshavim in the south of Israel.

The Israeli government was debating all last week and brought in international law experts to find out if they can attack the missile launchers in a residential neighborhood. At the same time, the US went into Somalia, and bombed the home of an El Kaida leader, injuring 6 kids, (it was in CBS news) and a US army officer said it was totally justified and nobody screamed about it and most newspapers did not mention it at all. Somalia is a long way from the US, but Gaza is right on our border

Also there is no mention of the constant humanitarian aid trucked into Gaza by Israel, there is no mention of Israeli doctors treating the Gazan wounded, in and out of Israel hospitals. I mentioned on Silverwhisper's blog that when I was in New York, I would read actual foreign papers, not on line. The Pakistan Times was my favorite, for they still had a tradition of unbiased reporting of international news (I can't say for internal news, for the write-ins were hinting, in their week-end paper, that many things were not printed about what was going on in their own country). But they had articles on what was happening in Israel that were much more accurate and so much more positive than a few Jewish leftist papers, and of course most US papers and British papers. I don't know what they do now, but I have to check if they went on line.

Americans might get an idea of how I feel when I encounter vicious lies about Israel in the press by reading The Teheran Times. They seem so very sophisticated, they cover lots of science news, but when you read about both Isreal and America you enter the twilight zone
http://www.tehrantimes.com/ .
sheltercrow said on Mar 06, 2008....

The ethnic cleansing of Palestine -- round two

By Terrell E. Arnold - Tehran Times

Having sent up numerous trial balloons over the past several weeks, Israel now will work on shutting down the Gaza Strip. Having kept it virtually sealed off from the outside world ever since Hamas beat Fatah for control of it, Israel now plans to use creeping electric power outages to make life in that open-air prison totally intolerable. Since no major power appears to have objected loudly enough to the trial balloons, Israel seems confident it can shut Gaza down without significant political repercussions.

Gaza, indeed Palestine as a whole, now poses a unique case of global insensitivity, and we should ask why. Is it because everybody else considers the Palestinian people less than human? Is it because the Israelis still keep control of the moral high ground after six decades of unremitting ethnic cleansing? Is it because the killing and displacement of Palestinians has become so common a feature of the Middle East human scene that nobody cares? Is it because objections to the usually pointless lobbing of mortar shells across the Israeli boundary are so mind numbing that people stop looking at or listening to what is actually happening to the Palestinian people?

No. All of those probably figure in some degree in the mindless global reactions to the human tragedy that is Palestine, but the hammer is fear of the charge of anti-Semitism. In addition, the hammer most artfully pairs with the universal negative: “Terrorism.” It simply does not matter what the Palestinians try to do in their own defense, so long as the Israelis and international media can lump any actions to fight back under the label “terrorism.” Thus, the Israelis can surround Gaza with troops, barbed wire, checkpoints and a neighbor such as Egypt that, if anything, helps the Israelis; Israel’s Defense Force can bomb and strafe Gaza targets indiscriminately; and because Gaza happens to be under the elected political leadership of a US-designated terrorist group, the outside world considers those actions all right.

The Zionists built the propaganda war around Palestine and promoted it through mainstream media, particularly American. The Zionists always have won it, no matter how repressively they deal with the Palestinians. Thus, humanity at large appears to have bought into the systematic theft of the Palestinian homeland by Zionists. It is therefore not surprising that, particularly in the Western view, even though the Israelis have taken all of Palestine up to the 1967 truce-line by force, the Palestinians simply should recognize Israel’s right to the land and move on. People would treat no other scrap of land on the planet with such casual disregard for ownership.

Perhaps stranger still is the way Gaza plays in the run-up to pending Annapolis talks on a Middle East peace. It simply does not. The U.S. host, Israel, and at least Fatah leader Abbas seem content with excluding a third of the Palestinian people from any role in the talks. That includes ignoring the Hamas supporters in the West Bank. However, the exclusion is more important than that. The U.S. and Israeli players exclude Hamas and its supporters, in Gaza as well as the West Bank, because they stand for the only settlement that the Palestinian people -- given any choice -- would approve.

That choice -- all of the West Bank and Gaza, with a capital in Jerusalem and a communications corridor -- entails a colossal concession by the Palestinians: Acceptance, in perpetuity, of Israeli theft of their homeland. However, the way the Israelis and U.S. promoters play the upcoming negotiations, the Palestinians have further major concessions to make, not least being acceptance of land trades to permit intrusive Israeli settlements in the West Bank, as well as concessions on the right of return and compensation for confiscated or destroyed property. Beyond that point, the Palestinians face hard trading on access to water, because at present they now get about 10% of the water per person that Israelis enjoy.

Because of such complications, most Middle East hands see dim prospects for the Annapolis talks. To be fair, Mahmoud Abbas seems fully aware of his inability to concede any of the main Palestinian demands. However, the Israeli delegation will insist on making no immediate concessions. Not only will the talks proceed without a full Palestinian delegation, it is simply unlikely that the Israelis will permit any substance to emerge from them. If that is the outcome, the gates will remain open to the steady Israeli encroachment on remaining Palestinian land until all of Palestine is absorbed into Israel.

The hang-up is that the Zionists can achieve the outcome they have so persistently sought only by driving the Palestinians out. Right now, because they simply refuse to give up, the Palestinians play into Zionist hands. Outsiders seem incapable of recognizing that, in similar circumstances, they would fight the Zionists tooth and nail. Thus, even if the Zionists have to lob the mortar shells over the fence into Israeli territory themselves, they will proceed to dismantle the remainder of Palestine without interference. Peace talks, such as they might be, will have value only as means to divert public attention from the final rounds of ethnic cleansing.

The writer is the author of the recently published work, A World Less Safe. He is a retired Senior Foreign Service Officer of the U.S. Department of State.
sheltercrow said on Mar 06, 2008....
This the "about" page from the Pakistan Times. I can see why it's free. It's run by Mumtaz Hamid Rao, as its Editor-in-Chief. He worked for the state-run Pakistan TV "for well over 35 years" in the "seventh most corrupt country of the world". Independent he is not.

THIS IS 'PAKISTAN TIMES!'

"We might not be the history makers, but we could say that we were there when it was shaping and we reported.”

WITH this veracity a great n’ grand nation came into sight on the world Atlas to manifest the charter of the comity of nations—as the silhouette of the UN—hallmarked with an elegant mindset, Love vis-à-vis all n’ Odium towards none—n’ with the employ of the acknowledged axiom—equilibrium—with live n’ let others live, as its podium.

Yet paradoxically this fascinating land, sanctified with profuse n’ prolific matchless traits—Pakistan—by now, could not clutch the magnitude of lofty impact and adore—which, pragmatically is its bona fide right via a candid flange.

Prima facie some antagonistic psyches have—all the way—been unleashing a sway of bigoted jargon to layer the de facto features of this bravura n’ virtuoso nation—yet in vain.

To evaporate all types of flawed propaganda—about Pakistan, PT is before you today with a pledge ‘To do the news like the world has never seen news before’. In fact—as we look at it—the birth of ‘Pakistan Times’ and it’s propel to stay alive is a modern David and Goliath tale about how a inventive web-newspaper can take on into a giant module of cyber medium—with an eventual goal—to win with optimal zest.

Thus, we will be thriving to institute links with almost every nation—around the orb, as fêted ‘The Wall Street Journal,’ once illustrated ‘has turned the dream of a global village into a reality’.

At this point—we can, with a jovial n’ avid mood—assure the cherished visitors that ‘Pakistan Times’ is geared to try and change people’s attitudes, to make them alike and love each other more and think like caring n’ decent neighbours rather than the fuming foes.

Our savour is to report the truth n’ truth alone—for the mutual excellence of every-one—explicitly of the segment, which is a much-loved branch of the nation—with a zealous loom that no eye-brows are lifted—ever—towards the alluring swear of a plausible n’ credible team—blessed with an opaque-free n’ translucent acuity—as crystal.

We are grateful to Allah Almighty, The Most Gracious and The Most Merciful that yet a new dream of the authors of the TIMES Group [to project Pakistan in its true n’ virtuous perspective in a dazzling way] stands translated into a realism after the aromatic admiration of it’s the very first venture—‘The World Today’ which won adore from almost five million sweetheart visitors—from all-over the world—just in a short span of three-months.

Maybe you are acquainted with the truth that the TIMES Group [www.TIMES.com.pk] is a gratis news service [which was, initially, with three websites—two in English, ‘Pakistan Times’ [www.PakistanTimes.net & www.DailyPakistanTimes.com] with ‘The World Today’ which now stands pooled with ‘Pakistan Times’—as pedestal n’ one in Urdu – ‘Daur-e-Jadeed’ [www.TWTNews.net], which have been set-in-motion to the skies for the benefit of every-one, irrespective of one’s faith, cast, color, creed or credo by an ally and herald of the pragmatic vision of ‘Enlightened Moderation’, the globally-acknowledged noted analyst n’ distinguished journalist Mumtaz Hamid Rao, as its Editor-in-Chief.

Rao, who retired from Pakistan TV after serving the set-up for well over 35 years – with meticulous n’ assiduous positions including the exigent slot of the Director News and Current Affairs of the fabulous network – says; ‘the key target of my colossal objective is to take the Cyber Media to the zeniths of flashy victorious magnitude with a singular gusto—to portray in entirety—the events-of-the-day plus to rip all types of misdemeanours n’ felonies—wherever the vile exists—with a warmth to notify to the germane muscles—via dissemination of ground realities in the silhouette of news pieces as well as the in-depth psychoanalysis on the up to date issues, engulfing the societal—explicitly—those dwelling in the East and the West—around the Orb—today.’

Anything which is visualized does have a perceptible goal. Yes we do have one and one only. That is to transmit to the web, all sorts of significant episodes with an accurate outlook—as expeditiously as possible n’ via this overriding medium—to benefit the populace—all-over—with a buoyancy that each one of them will oblige us by mailing to us their cute n’ vital annotations, which will be reckoned as stalwartly valuable for the potential sketch—we have in mind for times to come.

As was pledged—at the pre- take-off stair of ‘The World Today’, that we would put on the Internet—yet another malodorous publication as a complete daily newspaper ‘Pakistan Times’—with absolutely independent outlook, a hallmark which has made the TIMES Group—a unique citadel of journalistic credibility—with adore and elation the world-over—the elated vision translated into a reality today—May-01, 2003.

With the fêted banner ‘Pakistan Times’, the daily shall have almost 50-pages a day—based on in-depth analysis on current issues, posing miscellaneous perils to the poor people—without any prejudicial impend and features—with stories of human interest n’ focus on critical problematic scenarios—in a bid to seek their instantaneous solution. A standard editorial - with our vigilant image—shall at the same time be a frequent facet.

To meet the flavour of everyone, we shall also be putting on the wire—articles on every notable issue—from a village to the metropolitan, exclusive interviews with news-makers, horoscope, fashion, entertainment, special reports by our stringers—to be based in every district headquarter—for spontaneous reporting, sports events, business up-dates, currency rates, forex index, weather forecast, depiction of the regional circumstances—with weight on the South Asian and Middle East skirmish—and of-course an all-inclusive package of the global scenario—with a pragmatic n’ truthful approach.

Feedback from our venerated visitors—who have now reached close to 8-digits, almost 10 million just in one year—shall, of-course be a source of inspiration and strength to us—even in times ahead.

We would, thus be looking forward to your views—exclusively in a critical style—about the publications of the TIMES Group to make us able to do all which reflects every ones’ apt n’ apposite desire, aspire n’ cogitate from our bona fide news Websites, which shall prove harbinger vis-à-vis this fact.

As a matter of fact, our endeavours are ought to match the perceptions of the illustrious readers of ‘Pakistan Times’ and simultaneously the allied publication [in Urdu language] of the TIMES Group, ‘Daur-e-Jadeed’ and we are all-set to quench the thirst of Info-seekers. It has been and would continue to be the prime aspiration before us—as the 21st century is the epoch of Cyber Media—by a down-to-earth insight—as you can reach us in a spur of moment and—we too.

Thank you for sparing hefty moments with us—to see what is the podium of our mutual—‘PakistanTimes.net’
Trinov said on Mar 06, 2008....
Hello, I am writing this just after hearing that some brave arab hero of scarecrow and his ilk has murdered rabbinical students in the library of their yeshiva in Jerusalem.

I say this as the Gazans give out candy and celebrate, murder is their agenda,murder of civilians is their agenda, it is not ours but-once we get a government that can function, they won't be celebrating again for we have to go in and remove the terrorist infrustructure permanently and when we do this we cannot consider their children more important than our children, or their grandmothers more important than our grandmothers.

We supply them with humanitarian aid and take their sick and wounded into our hospitals and they give out candy when we are murdered. That is the logic of the Arab terrorist and his friends . They love murder. They get off on it. They brainwash their children in schools and even in computer clubs and summer camps. The 'Dawah' of the Chamas which calls itself a charity brainwashes for hate as it 'educates' --like the Nazi youth movement did. We try not to hate, not to blame the whole community, but there is a limit to how tolerant we can be, or how stupid to pretend that even when they say that they want to destroy us completely, they really mean that they want coexistence and peace. Nah, it pieces that they want, us in lots of pieces.

(When I have time I will copy some articles from the Pakistan newspaper that I read in the 1990's-- which was so much more honest than this little crow is. The paper could have changed, I haven't seen it in years. But it was not rabid, as this little crow is rabid.

My father and my father-in-law fought the Nazis in WWII, they were in American uniforms , I wonder on what side were the ancestors of this rabid dog? Why doesn't he admit his agenda? That at least would be honest,no? One line of honesty in hundreds of lines of bullshit?

Of course my first question is "How the hell did this gunman pass security?"

I have work to do tonight. No more time. I just wanted to keep you up to date with what is really happening, one day in the life of an Israeli. And I remember a little blond toddler that my mother used to tell stories to,-- as a girl soldier who taught nature studies she blew up in a bus in Jerusalem. And the children of Tzfat on a school trip in Maalot, they were murdered by terrorists in a similar fashion as today's terrorist action. Purposeful murder of the unarmed. Purposeful, anyone who cannot understand the difference between first degree murder and manslaughter? Killing of civilians is sad, no matter who, but the Hamas and the Hizballah purposely but their civilians in the action area.
silverwhisper said on Mar 06, 2008....
short answer on the original topic: no, absolutely not. if israel felt it was in their best interests to do, they woulda done it already. i'm gonna assume every israeli prime minister has a whole metric buttload more information about the possible ramifications of such an action than the rest of us put together.

ed

ALIENated said on Mar 06, 2008....

... murdered rabbinical students ...

And there we have the real story. Pasting a metric ton of crap into this post
will not explain that mentality. The Gazans give out candy and celebrate now, 
but they will never dance in heaven with those students. They will reap what
they sew.

D6fer said on Mar 06, 2008....
shelter must be busy handing out candy!
sheltercrow said on Mar 06, 2008....

"We supply them with humanitarian aid"

This is complete rubbish. The Israelis supply zero humanitarian aid to Gaza. All the aid comes from other countries. What aid that gets through is rationed by the Israelis for political purposes.

The only "we" to the project is that the IDF uses it's trucks to make the rationing system work.

If the Israelis hadn't created this concentration camp in the first place there wouldn't be such a massive need for the aid in the first place.
sheltercrow said on Mar 06, 2008....

You know alien you have such a selective way of picking and choosing what to believe you make even me blush.

"I say this as the Gazans give out candy"

"Many Egyptian cars were seen in Gaza, including a truck carrying $65,000 worth of cheese, candy bars and cleaning supplies for a Gaza City supermarket."

It's was humantarian aid that got through from egypt you dingbat.
sheltercrow said on Mar 06, 2008....
How many Arabs and Muslims have the Israelis killed? The ratio is some 300 Arab/Muslim to every Israeli.
sheltercrow said on Mar 06, 2008....

I give up. You can have Trinov and her racist Zionist rubbish. When alien joins the discussion and is accepted as a rational voice it means we have entered the twilight zone where reality does not reign.

Good day.
crybabylu said on Mar 06, 2008....

What cracks me up is that you got one set of "so-called" facts coming from the left, and you got another set coming from the right, but everytime I hear it from some one who lives or has lived in that section, we definitely get stories of how everytime Israel makes concessions, they are met with car bombs, etc.

We have an Armenian in our church who lived right there until five years ago, and he has a radio program where he airs the facts on that region, and he has shown us slideshow after slideshow of how they are very much acquainted with suicide bombers that we are now just getting to know a little about. It has been going on for way over a decade, and using children and such, and dressed as Israeli soldiers, etc.

I believe my friend, Samuel. I have sat hour upon hour and listen to him spill out the atrocities going on against the Israelies, just because they don't want them to exist, period! They will not be happy till every Israeli is dead. They'd like to push them off into the sea!

What we are hearing from the president of Iran is the echo of every Muslim in that area, and for all I know, every Muslim period!

So, I will go dig up my own research and I am going to check out every link that has been offered on this site against Israel's position, and we will see who is lieing, and I can guarantee that it isn't Israel that is doing the lieing, so what side does that leave?
Trinov said on Mar 07, 2008....
Hi, anyone interested in what the military and the espionage people have to say can go into Debkafile. Here is a link directly to the print page of the article about the murder in the Mercaz HaRav Yeshiva, but from there you can backtrack into the website, which gives information you won't get anywhere else, and they have a good record of second guessing what is coming up in the near future

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5090

For anyone wanting to know the truth, I suggest reading some books, for books tend to be better researched than the internet, and publishers are a bit more careful. Of course everyone can have an agenda.

I recommend : The Secret War Against the Jews by John Loftus and Mark Aarons, St. Martins Press, NY. and From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters which is back in print and available from Amazon.
stopmediabias said on Mar 07, 2008....
What I find interesting about Shelter taking the side of the Arabs is the fact that if the Arabs joined together, laid all there weapons down, rejected terrorists and said ok lets talk about resolving these conflicts, Israel would fall in line and talk peace. If Israel laid all there weapons down and showed even the slightest weakness what would happen? They be attacked even worse than they are now.

ALIENated said on Mar 07, 2008....

I am thinking sheltercrow must be bloc. Bloc would take the side of a tree stump
over America. Seems like sc is doing the same with the Jews and those who 
despise them.

I will say this, however, I cannot for the life of me figure out why American Jews
would gravitate to the Democrat party, which is filled with people like sc who 
despise them as well. It is just weird and hard to fathom.

Trinov said on Mar 09, 2008....
Hi, here is a part of an article in the Jerusalem Post today which might give you an idea of how complex the situation really is here. Just as Israel is afraid of Iran, so are many of the Arab states, who have complex balances of power among themselves. There is an Arab proverb "Me against my brother, my brother and I against my cousin and my cousin and I against the world."

Here it seems that Kuwait, which is a small country that has been raped already by Iraq, would like Israel to act and do something about the inevitable capability of Iran to destroy the neighborhood with nuclear weapons:

Here is the link:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1204546438679&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

----------------------------------------------

Here is part of the article:

: Kuwaiti strategist: Israel should strike Iran
Associated Press , THE JERUSALEM POST Mar. 9, 2008

"The destruction of Iran's nuclear capabilities would be in the interest of the Arab nations in the Gulf, and it would be "less embarrassing" if it was done by Israel rather than the US, a top Kuwaiti strategist said in remarks published Sunday.

"Officially Kuwait, like the other members of the Gulf Cooperation Council, wants a peaceful solution to the nuclear standoff between Teheran and the West and will not allow the US to use its territories for any attack on Iran.

"But when asked in an interview with the daily Al-Siyassah about the consequences of an Israeli strike on Iran's nuclear reactors, analyst and former government adviser Sami al-Faraj said it would not be such a bad thing.

"'Honestly speaking, they would be achieving something of great strategic value for the GCC by stopping Iran's tendency for hegemony over the area," he said, adding that "nipping it in the bud by Israeli hands would be less embarrassing for us" than if the Americans did it.

"Al-Faraj said Teheran was interfering in Iraq, Lebanon, and the Palestinian territories, and inciting strife between Sunnis and Shiites.

"'The question is what would it do if it were a nuclear nation? We have to call a spade a spade and say that burying the military nuclear Iranian project is in the interest of GCC states," and other countries in the area, added al-Faraj, who heads the independent Kuwait Center for Strategy Studies.

-----------------------------------------------

So you see that unlike what some of the fanatics in England or America, who side exclusively with their fantasy Arabs and show their hatred for all Jews by defaming Israel and making up history and using every piece of garbage they can to 'prove' like some of the Arab propogandists, that Jews never lived in Israel! (at other times they come out and say --but aren't we your cousins?" or-we are all children of Abrahim-- etc) [
stopmediabias said on Mar 10, 2008....
Trin-Do you think if Israel attacked Iran it would spark a larger war?
cotterall&elaineadams said on Mar 21, 2008....
Two wrongs don't make a right. Ehud Barak should resign which is all people will get. They will not see him at a war crimes tribunal for ordering the bombings of 110 innocent civilians. This is tragic and unjust. As for the rockets I am certain there are sound and reasonable ways to end them and occupation of the West Bank is not one of them. Bombing civilians is not one of them. Fight the ones sending the rockets. I am sure the intelligence can locate their sights instead of gaging war on civilians in suburban areas. People keep justifying restrictions on Palestinian land rights, settlements, curfews, invasions into Ramallah and Nablus along with other Palestinian cities, roadblocks and shutting down the Palestinian economy. Enough is enough. Remove the troops, end the occupation, offer aid, give the refugees a financial settlement, let them move back into the West Bank and Jordan, etc.

The Greater Israel is an injustice against Palestinians who live in Bantustans under a form of segregation. They deserve their own country. They are not deserving of this. It is like the Wild West with settlements, kicking people off their land and taking it from them while forcing them onto reserves in the name of someone else's country. I am not against Israel's existence but it doesn't give them the right to take away someone else's right to self-determination.
sheltercrow said on Mar 21, 2008....
dfer: feel free to delete my remarks if they offend you. I don't mind. I understand.
D6fer said on Mar 21, 2008....
cotterall.....why is it every time that Israel gives in and gives more, all they get is more attacks and more problems from the Palestinians?
The Palestinians fire rockets indiscriminately to kill all Israelis......When the Israelis attack, they are much more selective.....sometimes women and children are killed.....kind of hard not to kill them when they are used as human shields.
bloc said on Mar 21, 2008....
when israel builds a fence well beyond their borders are they being selective? When they continue to hold illegal settlements are they being selective?
D6fer said on Mar 21, 2008....
settlements don't kill people.....rockets kill people!
TinSoldier said on Mar 21, 2008....
Because everyone knows that illegal settlements and security fences are morally equivalent to rocket attacks and suicide bombers.
bloc said on Mar 22, 2008....
i didn't say they were equivalent, but d6 implied that israels policies only lead to suffering of selective "bad guys". It's impossible to remove attacks from the context in which they happen. If mexico annexed part of texas and kicked americans out of their homes both of you would suddenly have very different standards on such issues.
cotteralladams3 said on Mar 22, 2008....
Trinov said on Mar 22, 2008....
Hi, just one little thing. Israel is the land promised to the Jews. We were exiled twice, but the Arab names are just corruptions of the previous Hebrew names. The 'west bank' was and is Eretz Yisrael. There was no palestinian state or palestinian people--- try to find the concept in print before the 1940'sand 1950's and you will be hard pressed to do so. Many of the Arabs of that time rejected those terms themselves. Before the state of Israel, there was a UN Mandate under British rule. Before British rule there were the Turks, who made it difficult for everyone to survive, and most villages were owned lock stock and barral by absentee landlords in Syria or Lebanon, or Turkey etc. Before the Turks were the Crusades and the original Arab invasion in the 700's of the common era. Before that there were still Jewish cities that survived the Roman and the Persian and the Byzantine rules some until now like Tzfat which had been a Levite city in the times of the first Temple under a different name. There were Jewish towns and cities on the Golan, in the Galilee, , which remained after the fall of the Second Temple in 70 of the Common era. And there was destroyed Jerusalem, given another name by the Romans, but the streets of our Second Temple city we walk through now, again, uncovered, Jerusalem which we returned to time and time again inspite of the murders of the Crusaders, and the brutal rule of various Arab conquerers in between. Jerusalem, which we mention in our prayers daily.

Most of you Americans barely know your own history, know very little world history, and suddenly you are all experts on the middle east.

If I could put you down in many areas of the Galil, or the Negev, or the Judean desert, you would most probably die of dehydration before you saw a living soul. And we are a small country too. Most of this land is still barren, for it is waiting for the exiled Jews, scattered all over the globe in lots of interesting places, waiting for them to come back and claim the desert and the rocky hills. The Arabs were only a passing tenent here, they took the small fraction of easily cultivated land and rented it to their brethern from Syria and Lebanon for the most part.They never loved this land, they never loved Jerusalem which was an after thought between Salah A Din and Richard the Lion Heart and in other treaties. It was a small walled city, and never beautified, (for the Arabs know how to build and beautify a place they love.) As I said somewhere before, this is a test. It is a test for us Jews to see if we have the faith to deal with the situation here, being surrounded by enemies who want to murder us, and the rest of the world who wants so so so fucking much to let them, to get rid of us, to be able to build another holocaust museum and forget about us.

But we have our prophesies, some of them right there in the psalms you Christians know how to intone regally in the King James Translation, or your other translations, but none of you seem to read the words for understanding. Read psalm 83, about what happens to those who want to destroy Israel, how they will be a 'straw in the wind' . For that is the test for you, do you believe in G-d who is all, who has set history in motion for his own reasons, or do you believe in the almighty dollar or the Euro, the strength of your hands, so so strong against the tornedos that do go through cities now, don't they? Or the hurricanes? Or the fires. Do you believe in G-d? Can you really imagine that He was lying or stupid when He chose the Jews of all people to be His Own? Was He lying to promise this land to us, and not be able to fulfill His Promise?

(And before you are experts in Jewish history, may I suggest that you read some background on your own religion, ie who are the Syriac Christians, the Armenians, the Copts, what do they believe--- these Christians who actually are in the Middle East? Why were the Templars murdered, what did they know? What was Celtic Christianity and why was it surpressed? There a lots of topics out there about the beginning of Christianity, pre Paulian, that should interest you, after all its your belief system.)
Trinov said on Mar 22, 2008....
(PS I was a medieval history major)
D6fer said on Mar 23, 2008....
Very interesting trinov....I appreciate the history lesson!
Trinov said on Mar 23, 2008....
Hi, happy to be of help. There is a lot of wonderful history out there, the world is very interesting when you read beyond the textbooks and of course the agenda slanted headlines.
Trinov said on Mar 23, 2008....
Hi, here is an English translation of a Hebrew translation of a Turkish article written by an Egpytian reporter that I took from a Hebrew website quoting Arab newspapers.

Here is an English translation of a Hebrew translation of a Turkish article : "To intergrate Israel into the Middle East

True and lasting peace will come only when the neighbors of Israel will recognise that the Jewish people sit in Israel by right, an not only by force of circumstance. . The Jewish State is not a foreign invader to the Middle East. It is a branch and a representative of one of the most ancient cultures in this part of the world. Everything connects Israel to the area: geography, history, culture and even the religion and the language. The Jewish religion is used as a theological support and basis of Islam and Eastern Christianity. Hebrew and Arabic are as close to each other as two languages of Latin origin {are to each other}. The auther is an Egyptian reporter."

Now and then there are Arab reportes and intellectuals who don't just vomit out the line of their countries, but put their lives on the line to say some important truth. It is damn dangerous for them to say the truth, and too damned easy for Americans and British to sit in their armchairs and lie.
Trinov said on Mar 23, 2008....
to stopmediabias

I have no idea of what will happen, but I believe that it will be an necessity for someone to stop Iran from getting a nuclear option. There was an article that said that the Arab Gulf states would prefer Israel to knock out the Iranians --for it would be less embarrassing for Arabs than if American did it. Why! Go know. But perhaps because when we have strong men, they are admired also by the Arabs, for when they are not trying to murder us, suddenly we are remembered as 'cousins'. And the Persians aren't by the way.

(I remember, when I was at college in the states and went folkdancing that an Egyptian whom I met there and liked me as a partner wanted to date me. I said no, "for some day I might have to shoot you". He said, that he wasn't anti-semitic, and that Jewish girls were just like Arab girls anyway.)
bloc said on Mar 23, 2008....
@trinov
"Israel is the land promised to the Jews."

Promised by who?
sheltercrow said on Mar 24, 2008....
The term "Land of Israel" is a direct translation of the Hebrew phrase "ארץ ישראל" (Eretz Yisrael), which is found in the Hebrew Bible. There is certainly no reference to a 'west bank', that is a modern concept.

A search for Eretz Yisrael will get you nothing more than an obscure explanations of a Torah reference. Writing that reminds me of the Christian Rapture movement.

Since when is an obscure Torah reference to be consulted to determine U.S. foreign policy?

During all the times since the Babylonians enslaved the tribes are we to believe there was no one there?

If a Hindu propaganda organization sets up shop here are we to consult the the Vedas, the Mahabharata and the Ramayana?
sheltercrow said on Mar 24, 2008....

I cannot see how adults can take this stuff seriously. You all act like a bunch of children sitting around a campfire listening to old wives tales.

Oh... thank you for telling us this wonderful history.

Only someone with a slim take on reality could take any of these religious fairy tales seriously. You got to grow up. Stop acting stupid. Read a f*****g real book.

I cannot see how anyone can take any of you ding dongs seriously.

D6fer said on Mar 24, 2008....

The bible is real book shelter....that I am sure you will discover someday!

sheltercrow said on Mar 24, 2008....

dfer you did something to the post. Sure the bible has a binding like the other books. What gives?

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