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poll: a question for the religiously-inclined soulcaster

silverwhisper posted on Feb 20, 2008 | views: 1160 | Tags: faith, belief, religion, polls, Eat meat or not, behavior
there are IMHO some things about which you cannot speak knowledgeably without ever having actually been through 'em. you can get close, you can read descriptions or accounts of 'em, but w/out living 'em, i'm convinced that you really can't possibly know what you're talking about.

one of 'em is parenting. i know i don't know what that's like, and i know i can't without being one myself. sure, i've had my nephews and nieces over for a few days--but that isn't the same thing, i know: in a few days, it's over. and the thing i keep seeing in all the blog entries by soulcasting parents is that if parenting is like anything, it's like a marathon, not a sprint.

but another is faith, and that's a subject that has always fascinated me.

there are a number of soulcasters whose day to day lives are shaped and colored by their faith in a way that i know i cannot understand. i see the richness it adds to polar's blog entries, the strength that it provides to mamie's, the insight i regularly see in fearing's, the humility that always marks faithful disciple's...

a friend of mine, an orthodox jew, once observed to me that it's difficult to discuss theology with christians: that ultimately, it was impossible for someone to know who really was or wasn't a christian. for him, it was easy to identify jews: they followed the law as given to moses. but with christians, it wasn't about obedience to the law but why a thing was done.

all of which leads me to my question for the evening.



for those of you who practice a faith: in what way do you believe (or if you prefer, hope) that it's most evident in how you conduct yourself?

for those of you who do not: in what way do you believe that a person's faith is most evidence in his or her conduct?

ed

p.s.: as ever, my comments later, yadda yadda yadda...

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Comments

  • pickersplock said on Feb 20, 2008....
    Questions, questions, I'm not a practicing Christain in the sense that we don't go to church every week, but when I do there is a comfort.
    In my case, it's all about "making a joyful noise unto the lord", the forgiveness, the hope.  All of the rest is purely decorative.
    Have you read East of Eden, ed?
    The discussion of "timshel" is a key component of my faith as well.
  • CreativeWoman said on Feb 20, 2008....
    That is a very tough question, Ed.  I will give a simple answer, though. 

    I try to live my life treating others as I want to be treated.

    My hope is that the people around me will see that I am genuine.  I lean on God every day through prayer and hope that the goodness and mercy I show to others will be reflected back toward me.

    Nice reflective post.

    CW
  • bloc said on Feb 20, 2008....
    allow me to throw a curve ball as I'm known to do ;)

    I have faith, but it's not faith in a deity. My faith is twofold, that we can only live in the present moment and that nothing is permanent. I hope that my actions are a representation of this faith and that my words are unnecessary on the matter.

    This raise an interesting question. What is the difference between a religious belief and a philosophical belief? Are they the same?
  • silverwhisper said on Feb 20, 2008....
    pickers: i haven't read much steinbeck, so thank you for posting that. fascinating reading, that. :>

    CW: i think you do a superb job of demonstrating in word and deed the great wisdom of the golden rule. and thank you, i guess i was feeling overdue for one. :>

    bloc: well, i would argue that a philosophical belief such as you are propounding here is necessarily untestable in most meaningful ways. i think the operative word here is "belief", no? so at least in this instance, yes, religious belief and philosophical belief are synonymous, i would say.

    ed
  • dailyachesandpains said on Feb 20, 2008....
    This isn't easy for me to answer AT ALL!
     
    I was brought up as Catholic.  FORCED to attend church every holy day, and Sunday (and even the day that I fell out of a car going at least 30 mph).  I think that because religion was forced on me, I don't have much of 'it' in me.  However, I do pray and I know it's to a God, but I don't know who my God is.  I guess you could say that I just pray and have faith in a higher power to help me and guide me.  Agnostic?  Most likely.
     
    My Mother is still the worst person to debate religion with.  It's her way, or no way.  I think the day that she really pissed me off was the day I told her I lost faith in the Catholic Church due to all the scandals with those Priests that took advantage of children and everything being brushed under the rug by the church.  I thought that was VERY un-catholic.  She has a reason, of course, and it was because "people didn't talk about those things!" What!?  Was she kidding me?  As a Catholic, you don't tell lies.  Hiding that, is a lie.  The victims will never recover if they're even still alive as I know at least one has killed himself after he got his settlement.  It never goes away. 
     
    Then, you've also got the Priest that stalked Conan O'Brien.  Well, I have only told a couple of people here about this, but this man is someone my Mother became friends with.  His first funeral mass was my Grandmother's, and she was my best friend.  He actually vacationed with us.  HE BAPTISED MY DAUGHTER, that was his first baptism as a priest!  That she invited a psychotic priest into our homes and on our family vacations when she knew he was a little "odd", infuriated me.  I will say this about that specific priest, he was the best person for a religious debate and he willingly accepted my Sister's point of views and would actually say "I agree."  He was SO strange though.  I could tell you more about him, but I fear actually being called in as a witness!  He was overall and odd but nice guy.  Very hard to explain.
     
    There have been many reasons why I have abandoned my Catholic upbringing.  I do still have faith and pray to a God that I don't fear and I don't know who this person is. 
     
    Okay, I'm obviously having an ADD moment and my thoughts just came all out here about religion and I have no idea if I even answered correctly.  I need to take my medication so my thoughts stay straight. 
     
    Thanks,
    Daily
  • TinSoldier said on Feb 20, 2008....
    Answered elsewhere, but keeping this in my conversations.
  • GracefullyGrowing said on Feb 20, 2008....
    While I no longer ascribe to any particular religion, I am a woman of faith and of spirit.
     
    When I first decided to become a person of faith I asked to be taught to love as God loves.   So, in answer to the question, I hope that LOVE is most evident in the way I conduct myself.
     
    I'm also a realist.  *I* know that love sometimes means one has to poke, rather than hug.  It's hard for some to see that, so they don't know that I'm saying "I love you".   I don't blame them, I just wish they would see and understand.  It's difficult, this life of faith.
     
    ~Grace~
  • fearing said on Feb 20, 2008....
    How do I believe or hope my faith is evident in how I conduct myself? I doubt I'll even come close to answering that. You know, I'm always a little intimidated in answering this type of question. ;-) I know what I believe but I'm not very good in the explaining part. And faith is the thing I can't hold in my hand.

    In how I conduct myself - I "hope", I so very much hope, that The God I know is evident. I don't know how to say it other than I want others to see His difference in me. I'm human. To see a real God who loves them.

    There are lots of religious people in the world. I grew up in a very legalistic church where you were expected to do and behave certain ways. No one said it but it was almost like scoring points in being a good Christian. The older I got, the more I realized God wasn't interested in my attendance at choir practice, working in the nursery etc. He was interested in me. It sounds stupid but it is an earth-shattering moment when you find out He is real - knowable. I realize you don't share my belief but imagine for a minute that you did - honestly think about it. The God you've been reading about in the Bible, the cross, the empty grave - the reason for all that is suddenly personal. Real. It makes a difference.
    It is where we find out what faith is.

  • hinana said on Feb 20, 2008....
    Im not quite sure about your question..but im going to assume the question is that what makes your particular religion obvious from the way you act?
     
    Mine isnt evident i guess from the way i act..i just treat most people as kindly as i can..my particualr religion
    which is islam btw, is prolly most obvious from what i dont do. i dotn drink, eat a lot of certain things, etc..
     
    i dont know, i dont follow my religion very strictly, but i do believe.
    But i do what i think is right, and what i want, as long as i think its right.
  • the_infernal_optimist said on Feb 20, 2008....
    I would hope that my faith, which admittedly is a bit off the major paths, shows in my indomitable hope for the future, in my attempts to help other people and to do no harm in my day-to-day life, in my tolerance of those who do not believe as I do (on faith or any number of other topics)...I guess it just shows in the best parts of who I am, you know? It's hope and renewal and strength when I don't have much of my own. Believing in something bigger than me helps me get back up and keep trying, and I think that shows sometimes.

    I strive to roll with the punches and still have a hand out for anyone who's mired down, and to not let the not-so-great happenings dampen my spirit. Faith makes that more easily accomplished for me, and helps me take a long view when I get impatient with things in the here and now. It helps me trust that things are going to be okay again when they aren't right then, and the fact that I'm not broken speaks for itself. I might be, if not for faith (and some very good friends along the way in life).

    ~Infernal
  • Peanuthead said on Feb 21, 2008....
    I'm never one for living life according to set rules, or even worse, toeing particular steps just so that people might notice that you are indeed the religious person that you say you are.
    Though usually it creates a problem for me in that, i am Christian- by choice, i am a faith person, so there tends to be expectations of how you are supposed to act/ behave- just so you follow the status quo.
     
    Do we follow the status quo??Xtianity, for instance, says Yes- but its a tactical yes. E.g, Is it wrong to 'eat meat' when the 'law' says 'eating meat' is wrong. However, you, know that there is absolutely nothing wrong with eating 'meat', yet, people know you as a xtian and well knowingly or knowingly, sometimes, people do pattern their lives according to certian decisions you make. So, you don't want to tarnish somebody else's 'faith' by eating 'meat', so u do not eat 'meat', even though you personally know that all the stories about 'meat eating' being a sin, is all nothing but a farce!!!
     
    As one grows in well, Xtianity for instance, you're made aware of the truth of certian norms and misnorms..its like the more u grow,, the more u get unshakled of certain things. But now u know that there is 'absolutely nothing wrong with meat eating', but do u for that reason, go shouting naked down the road that; "HEY EVERYBODY, EATING MEAT IS NOT A SIN!!!' Nope, bcos u know growth for everybody is in phases, u keep your new knoledge to urself, bask in you new freedom, and (snickers), eat meat in private!!!
     
    PLS NOTE: The term 'EATING MEAT' should not be taken literally. I guess, well, the xtains know what i'm talking about. No pun intended!
  • lfbno7 said on Feb 21, 2008....
    People cherish their delusions. They go deep into their childhood, when they were first told these delusions. I suppose it has something to do with Santa Claus and Christmas presents, and something to do with being a good little boy or girl. As Hitler said, half the people in the world will believe anything you tell them. Between the belief in our current trendy religions like Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc., to belief in the Holy Accidental Mutation, each of these delusions vies for being the most nonsensical. That's my opinion, and I don't enjoy discussing it. That's just it. Believe what you like, and more power to you. Nobody is convincing anybody of anything.
  • silverwhisper said on Feb 21, 2008....
    daily: no, it isn't easy for most people to answer, i imagine. i got tired of the simple questions. :> i cannot understand your mother's response to that scandal: the church isn't exactly infallible, and the most cursory examination of history will reveal that--you should ask her sometime what she thought of the church's silence during the holocaust. :D wait--your priest stalked conan o'brien? WTF?! and just b/c you aren't catholic doesn't mean you aren't christian, daily. maybe a different sect would be better suited to you?

    TS: ah yes. you know, if you click on the flag next to someone else's comment (or your own), you invoke the postmark feature--thought you might find that of some use. :>

    grace: i think that's an admirable guiding philosophy, myself. and i agree that sometimes, love requires confrontation.

    fearing: when you say "i don't know how to say it other than i want others to see his difference in me", i believe that sums up everything i know about you and your faith. i know WWJD was a big thing a while back, but you've always impressed me as someone for whom that isn't mere marketing and i find that inspiring. that personal relationship with the divine about which i've heard countless sermons and witnesses is a powerful and beautiful thing, fearing. some day, i'd like to read a blog entry by you about how you were saved.

    hinana: that's mostly the sense in which i meant the question. obviously, halal requires that you avoid certain foods and alcohol, observe the five pillars. as to following one's faith, i've always felt that it's more to do w/ why you do a thing rather than what you do, you know?

    infernal: as i was reading your comment and nodding, i realized that i don't believe i know much about your faith. that's kinda funny, considering how long we've known one another in internet years. :>

    peanuthead: i've found in my travels that there are as many forms of christianity as there are christians, to be honest. by "eating meat" are you referring to the doctrine of transubstantiation? i've never quite understood the need for that particular doctrine, i'll confess. but yes, i think we've all known christians for whom "being a christian" was about conforming to a prescribed set of behaviors and little else. i've never been fond of that when i've encountered it, i have to say.

    lbf: i'm sorry but i cannot hold w/ the idea of religion as a delusion. maybe you haven't found this, but i know i've seen people whose lives were transformed by this so-called "delusion" and it's invariably been for the better.

    ed
  • RollingC said on Feb 21, 2008....
    Good question Ed, but don't have time as I'm going off to work.  This is a deep subject touching upon a deeper one.   Haven't had the time to read all comments but maybe later on tonight....     :^)
    Rc
  • polarheart said on Feb 21, 2008....
    Edikins, what a thought provoking post, thank you for probing us on this because there is much I esp can learn from others here. 
     
    This is probably the best answer I can give right now:  I hope to meet people where they are at and that God (Yahuweh) will shine His love through me. . .I guess that I hope my belief is made evident most through my availability to people; to provide encouragement, friendship, acceptance and prayer. 
     
    Whatever I give of myself I give in all sincerity. 
     
    Polar xox
  • uniquely-ironic said on Feb 21, 2008....
    I'm late to the party, but as a non-practising christian I do have a thought.
     
    When I was heavily into the church I had very rigid views and tolerances.  I might
  • the_infernal_optimist said on Feb 21, 2008....
    ed: That is kind of odd, isn't it? Maybe I should remedy that elsewhere.

    ~Infernal
  • LtCmdrWorf1 said on Feb 21, 2008....

    Ed,

     

    St. Francis said: “You must preach the Gospel everyday, and sometimes use words.”  There are 613 commandments, or laws in the Bible (the Old Testament). My Jewish brothers and sisters endeavor to keep every single one of them. 

     

    Christ was not a Christian, he was a Jew, and he died on the cross as a Jew.  His teachings are what we in the Christian faith follow, some of us more that others, and some of us (who claim to be Christians) not at all.  Christ gave us the two greatest commandments: “Love the lord your God with all your soul and all your mind and all your heart.”  The second he said was like the first: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 

     

    Now, I try everyday to follow the two commandments as set forth in the Gospel, but I know that I fall horribly short.  So, I have to give my Jewish brothers and sisters mush respect for trying to keep the 613 in the Old Testament.  God is not a taskmaster.  God know that we will fall short from time to time, and it’s Gods grace shines on us all in spite of that.  A wise man said something to me the other day that stuck, he said: “God does not answer our questions, God questions our answers.  I leave you, and anyone who reads this, with that.  Peace and Long Life.

     

    Love Worf
  • uniquely-ironic said on Feb 21, 2008....
    Crap!  I hate it when I get cut off!
     
    Anyhoo....
     
    When I was heavily into the church I had very rigid views and tolerances.  I might have believed that someone might go to hell because they did not believe in God.
     
    Now, as long as a person is trying to better themself, treats others with respect and tolerance, I believe God honors that.
     
     
  • GracefullyGrowing said on Feb 21, 2008....
    Unique - That's exactly my personal experience as well.
     
    ~Grace~
  • dailyachesandpains said on Feb 21, 2008....
    Ed:  I'm surprised you didn't hear that story, it was national news.  He was arrested in NYC and it all went down before the writers strike, so a while ago now.  His father was a writer for 'Time Magazine'!  I honestly felt bad for the guy, but the more I thought about it, it was the last strike for me.  Oh, and he was part of a different parish.  My Grandmother lived about a half hour away from us, give or take.  So, he wasn't really our priest. 
  • quietone said on Feb 21, 2008....
    I was going to think aobut this but saw the title again and said wait a minute... I can say I am not "religiously-inclined"  I have faith and believe in a higher power...I don't "belong" to any particular "religion".  I believe that God is a part of us all.... it is an energy we all share.  This is how I see my faith working: by being a conduit for my higer power that he may work through me as he so needs me .  I am by far not perfect or am I that educated in the bible.....but I do believe and I do have faith~
  • beyondtheveil said on Feb 21, 2008....
    Ed- I have found in my experience with life through loved ones, friends, acquaintances, and strangers, there is no difference in general conduct as to whether they were religious or not.

    I have found more tolerance among the non-religious, but just as many good people among the religious.

    It comes from within, good teachings lie everywhere. No one thing is responsible. A person with good conduct within will obey the Commandments whether they have read them or not. Will treat others well whether they have heard of the Golden Rule or not.
  • Holly-Go-Lightly said on Feb 21, 2008....
    ed~ ol' buddy, ol'pal!! excellent question!!

    I was raised a Catholic, however, when I was young, my mother was a very strict Catholic, then later after her divorce, she felt jaded towards the church, and never went back. We grew up going through the rituals etc. of the Catholic faith, but never learning why we did these things. I lapsed for many years, but later had my kids baptized into the faith, and became very involved in the church. Currently I haven't attended for about 8 years, and I do miss the comfort of the well-known prayers, and the sanctuary of being still in a pew and talking to God. But, more than anything, I believe in my own personal relationship with God. In this personal relationship, I am not bound by ritual, but by faith alone. My prayers are conversations. My place of worship is among the trees in my yard, or most recently, my very own bed.

    I once read that sometimes it is we who need to be Jesus's hands here on earth.
    That is the way I have shown my faith most consistently over the years. I always taught my children that no matter how little we have, (and we did have little), that there is always someone who has less than us, and we can always find something to help them, even if it is only our time. This is my belief that we are all in a sense, our brother's keeper. No one left behind, etc. And I have found some of my greatest joy in being "his hands" here on earth. Feeding homeless families, sponsoring children, and animals, and programs for the needy, volunteering in the
    local soup kitchens, volunteering in classrooms, libraries, first aid stations, fund-raising, donating clothing, food, money, time, taking in teens with no where else to go, and other similar actions have given me a real sense of purpose and direction, and developed a solid ground on which to spread my faith.

    ~*~*~Holly~*~*~
  • Mamie said on Feb 21, 2008....
    I have no idea where to start my answer, can I just meet you for coffee and explain it verbally? :)) Holy moly...um....I believe my faith is most evident in how the light of Christ shines in my eye, which I ask for every day. amen.
  • namyogrl said on Feb 21, 2008....
    well I am a Buddhist. I practice Nichiren Buddhism. this practice stems from the belief that each of us already possessess the innate vitality, compassion and wisdom needed to live a fulfillilng, contributive life. I believe that true happiness is not found in all the things that happen in my life rather it is through determination of overcoming all obstacles that true happines unviels itself to me. So because I believe in cause and effect, I try to live my life according to that law. That for every cause I set forth in my life I will recieve an effect of that cause. This does not only mean physical actions but thoughts as well. In other words I chant to be happy.
  • tbs230 said on Feb 21, 2008....
    I think what makes the question so hard is that there are certain "guidelines" that a Christian must follow, yet we each have our own personal values that make interpreting those guidelines unique to each individual.

    I take it one step at a time. I treat others as I would like to be treated, with patience and kindness and forgiveness (for as many things as I can...I'm not perfect).

    I don't know how to explain it. I know there God is there (or for arguments sake, I believe He is) and I live in a way that I hope will make Him happy.

    I have no idea if I actually answered your question.
  • Trinov said on Feb 21, 2008....
    Hi, I thought I'd take a break from cooking for the Shabbat, (I've been up late all week translating and can't fall asleep anyway) for we do not cook on Shabbat, but enjoy the foods that we cook before hand, (and the desserts), in a parable of doing good in this world so that we will have our 'meals' in the next-external world.

    I have to say I was impressed by the people who wrote that they try to treat others as they want others to treat them. That is the basic rule for any type of decent society and from that rule all just laws can be extrapolated.

    And once a man came to the great Sage Hillel, he said he was thinking of becoming a Jew, and asked him to sum up Judaism by standing on one foot. He had just been thrown out of the house of the Sage Shamai, (who was a building engineer and of course as an engineer he was a stickler for rules) after the had asked that same question. Hillel said :"Don't do to others what you don't want them to do to you, that is the whole Torah, the rest is commentary, go and learn the commentary."

    So how does my religion affect me? I try to make it shape my life--but that does not mean being stepped on or being a 'goody two shoes'. All the laws the were given to the Jews at Sinai, are laws "L'chaiot b'hem" --to live by. They are not meant to strangle but to provide a safe basis for growth. In Europe unfortunatley times were so hard that two classes of Jews were made, the scholars and the ignorant. And the scholars treated the ignorant badly and those ignorant masses were the majority who came to America in the 1890's--and they for the most part abandoned all Jewish behavior and only kept some rituals-without understanding them-- and tried to make their children observe these rituals without knowing why. This created lots of self hating Jews and Jews who ran to intermarry.

    Among Sephardic Jews there never was such a great gap, there were always books in the vernacular--Judaic Spanish or Turkish or Italian etc to keep the 'masses' informed of the reasons of the laws and the beauty of the traditions. So the majority of Jews of Spanish or Sephardic (also Eastern) Jews have a Jewish lifestyle if not a way of life totally within the laws of Moses.

    I was raised by a father who was not observant of all the laws but who was an advocat for his own people and for anyone getting a bad break in life, and he and my mother never judged anyone by religion or color of skin, but by how they behaved. And I guess that even when I became formally religious I still keep that basis--ie Is this guy for real or is he just faking it? And the only two Rabbis that we had who were --and are--our religious guides were (and are) men who share this attitude --of respect and compassion for people who are honest and try to do their best.

    And religion to me is not so much about faith that there is a Creater, for I know that intellectually, and I have been physically rescued in wierd circumtances so many times, besides having what you'd call 'mystical' experiences. (I sometimes can hear and see what you call 'angels' (they can be very sarcastic by the way, and they don't carry harps )). My faith comes in when I see good people die in terrorist actions or road accidents, or freak storms etc. I have faith that there is a reason for everything and that the Creator has the reasons and I cannot understand the overall picture. To paraphrase the Great Baal Shem Tov--we have come in on act seven or eight and haven't seen the whole long play--the guy who just got shot had shot the guy shooting him etc in another life time.
  • crybabylu said on Feb 21, 2008....

    I believe to be able to really live my faith, I have to walk in "the spirit" and to be dead to my own selfish desires.  Obviously, I don't always do that.  And when I step back into the path of chosing my own selfish desires, you usually can tell the contrast. I don't like the Dee I see when I am pursuing my own gain.  I like Dee better when I am walking in the way that his spirit leads me.

    I believe that is the Dee who is loving, caring, peaceable, longsuffering.....etc.

  • kelly said on Feb 22, 2008....
    "maybe you haven't found this, but i know i've seen people whose lives were transformed by this so-called "delusion" and it's invariably been for the better."

    Well, yes, but did you ever notice that god or the religion is really just a place holder for another addiction in these transformations?  Admittedly a less destructive one.

    I'm probably more in the lbfno7 camp.  I think faith, religion and belief in god are psychological defense mechanisms.
  • candylane said on Feb 22, 2008....

    I sing a song that goes "I Can't even walk without him holding my hand".

    People criticise that and say that we are weak minded and have to have a crutch in life, and can't cope like other people.

    There are several things wrong , I think, in that statement.   Looking at it as it might be true.

    I don't see a lot of people "coping" I see violence in our world, and plenty of it, I see hatred, and greed, and selfishness.  I don't want to "cope" in a world like that. 

    If religion is some kind of "delusion" to pacify our defense mechanisms and keep them in check, then I will glady take my "delusion" anyday.

    You do what works for you, and I will do what works for me. Thank you!

  • silverwhisper said on Feb 22, 2008....
    rollingc: hey, take your time, man--this blog entry isn't going anywhere. :>

    polar: when you say "whatever i give of myself i give in all sincerity", that's so perfectly self-evident to me. i think you succeed quite well in living your faith. great answer!

    u-i: i think your response got cut-off. oo, OK...you know, i would never have guessed you were like that, given the person i've come to know through SC.

    infernal: yes, yes it is. :>

    worf: good to see you gain, my friend! :> oddly, i've only ever heard christians refer to the golden rule, but not the other commandment to which you refer: do you recall the scriptural citation for that? i'll confess i don't seem to recognize it. and i like what that gentleman said to you--i like that quite a bit, actually. :>

    grace: :>

    daily: i know, i'm surprised too! that's really, really weird--i hope he's getting counseling or something!

    quietone: i like the idea of being a conduit for a higher power--i think that's really cool, actually. :>

    beyond: honestly, i have to confess my own observations have been the same as yours, at least generally. however, i've known folks who've become better people as a result--frankly, my mother is one. she was very, very unhappy for a long time and i've seen how her faith has made her happier, more patient and more kind. seeing her transformation has been wonderful.

    holly: hey, good to see you again! what a wonderful witness, holly...it's truly beautiful. i honestly don't believe i've ever known that you were religious, so this is doubly pleasant to learn. :>

    mamie: well, that's gonna be kinda tricky, to be honest, but i think that's an excellent answer despite the brevity. :>

    namyogrl: i don't think i knew that you're a buddhist--cool! i'd like to know a bit more about nichiren buddhism--is there a particular site you can recommend so i can become more informed?

    tbs: well, it's a question that can mean many things, if you look at the various ways other soulcasters have responded. :> so yes, that does answer the question, b/c it's the question you heard, and the question i asked was very, very open-ended, i agree. :> i think that when you say "i live in a way that i hope will make him happy" is a great answer. if you wanted to enlarge upon your answer, you could give an example of things that you do you hope will make him happy--if you have the time. :>

    trinov: ah yes, cooking for shabbat--what time is sundown these days in israel? interestingly, i asked this question at another of my online haunts, and my orthodox jewish friend quoted the same response by hillel (although translated slightly differently). that same friend is fond of quoting shem tov as well. :> ah, the reform jews...i was wondering if you were going to touch on them. :> i'm sorry you haven't been able to sleep this past week, trinov--suffice it to say that i understand. :> thank you for your very thorough answer. :>

    dee: i don't know, dee, i think that your heart is a pretty good one from what i've seen. :>

    kelly: in point of fact, no, i have not had that observation in most cases--although i have in a small number.

    candylane: indeed, if it's a coping technique, then it's a pretty poor one, i agree. which is why i don't believe that's the case, myself. :>



    my own answer: as someone who does not practice a faith, i believe another person's faith is most in evidence in how they treat a stranger. not that they should be outgoing or anything, but rather, if asked a reasonable question by a stranger, how they respond to him or her. to me, how we treat our loved ones is the same for sane people: with love and dignity. but how we treat someone with whom we have no connection--that's what i find most telling about a person.

    ed
  • TinSoldier said on Feb 22, 2008....
    BTW, ed, I knew about the flag thing. You told me about it before.

    I just felt like making a personal appearance and saying nothing instead of using the flag to anonymously lurk. ;-)

    I've enjoyed reading the responses.

  • namyogrl said on Feb 22, 2008....
    Ed i belong to an organization called SGI-USA this group of buddhist are practicing the buddhism I talked about and you can go to sgi-usa.org lots of information there. There are people practicing this Buddhism in over 160 countries. So we are out there.
  • LtCmdrWorf1 said on Feb 22, 2008....

    Hey Ed,

    Mathew 22:36-40

    36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."  Peace and Long Life

    Love Worf

  • silverwhisper said on Feb 22, 2008....
    TS: forgive me, as i looked at the comments in the linked blog entry, i realized that you already commented to that--my apologies. :>

    namyogrl: cool, thank you for the link! i know very little about buddhism as practiced so i'm always eager to learn more. :>

    worf: ah, thank you. odd that i don't recall seeing that before, so my thanks, as ever. :>

    ed
  • tbs230 said on Feb 22, 2008....
    I always have time for my friend!

    So, an example...I just saw The Color Purple on Broadway, and one of the songs said "I was born with God inside me".

    I'm a business student, the logical choice of careers would be to become a businesswoman. However, God is showing me a path that has little if anything to do with business. To make Him happy would be to make me happy. And as Aristotle said true happiness is to be fully human...or something like that.

    Anyway, I see my future as one that is used to make a difference, to help others. Can I do that as a businesswoman? Maybe, but right now, what makes me happy, and therefore Him happy, is to teach, to inform and guide and help as many as possible continue learning.

    Ignorance gets one nowhere. Plus, if He didn't want people to be knowledgeable, He wouldn't have had everything written down.
  • silverwhisper said on Feb 23, 2008....
    [nods]

    i never heard any of the music from the color purple but i do like that quotation. :> and your degree may yet still come in handy in furtherance of the path you want to follow, you know. :>

    thank you for the explanation. :>

    ed
  • kelly said on Feb 23, 2008....
    "how we treat our loved ones is the same for sane people: with love and dignity. but how we treat someone with whom we have no connection--that's what i find most telling about a person."

    Well, yes, I entirely agree.  But what does that have to do with faith?
  • RollingC said on Feb 23, 2008....
    If you believe and have faith in your belief, you'll act accordingly.  The Christians are supposed to follow the teachings of Christ, our Lord. He distinctly tells us in his teachings that we are to Love our neighbor, indeed, our enemies, like we Love ourselves.
    A bit hard that to follow sometimes but if you continuously try because you believe, is that not following your faith? It doesn't really matter how many times you fail, but the fact that you pick yourself up and try again because of what you believe doesn't that tell you something about that particular person ? and could it be because of his faith that he acts this way as maybe before he would've acted a bit different ?  Not as kindly maybe?
    Deep subject this....  :^)
    Rc
  • RollingC said on Feb 23, 2008....
    Of course there are varying degrees of this and so many different ways of expressing yourself that it would be kinda hard to express them all but it boils down to treating others like you want yourself to be treated. Which some people don't. 
    I try not to judge people but like it's been said before up above, treating strangers with love and dignity says a lot about a person and chances are they've been exposed to good religious principles and   foundations at one point in their lives.
    :^)
    Rc
  • silverwhisper said on Feb 23, 2008....
    kelly: i find it relevant because when someone follows a faith, it should guide their behaviors--the responses of the various soulcasters who do follow such a path has made that quite clear in the other comments. the way i see it, the actions of a given believer speak to the degree to which he or she is an example of that faith. the more observant/devout, the greater the extent to which that faith should be in evidence--see also rollingc's most recent comment.

    rollingc: i see that we're of similar minds on the matter. :> there really isn't much more to be said, is there?

    ed
  • kelly said on Feb 23, 2008....
    silver:  OK, but what about the person who is kind and considerate and also an atheist?  I think I'm missing the point.

    "but it boils down to treating others like you want yourself to be treated."

    Yes.  But where I differ from everyone on this point is that you don't need a religion to teach you these things.  All you need is to grow up in an environment that stresses consideration of those around you.
  • polarheart said on Feb 23, 2008....
    So, Kelly, what if you did not grow up in an environment that stresses consideration of those around you? 
  • bloc said on Feb 23, 2008....
    @rolling
    "If you believe and have faith in your belief, you'll act accordingly"

    I think history makes this conclusion suspect. People have an amazing ability to rationalize their misdeeds through their "faith", and this appears to be true even of those with the best intentions.

    "and could it be because of his faith that he acts this way as maybe before he would've acted a bit different ? "

    The issue I have is that I've know just as many people without faith who behave equally as well. My conclusion is that faith is merely a coincidence when it comes to good deeds. Well, this depends on how one defines faith. I have faith of a sort as my first comment reveals, but I don't believe in a deity. 

    "but it boils down to treating others like you want yourself to be treated."

    Unless you're a masochist ;) Jokes aside, I agree, but I don't believe this requires faith in a God. Empathy through the recognition of oneself in others is my source of empathy. 

    @ed
    "when someone follows a faith, it should guide their behaviors"

    This statement revolves around the definition of "faith". Everyone will read this an immediately assume you mean a belief in God. Maybe you do, maybe you don't; this is the difficulty with loaded words. Do namyogrl and I have faith in your opinion? If so then I think you and kelly are arguing over the use of loaded words.

    Kelly and I have had this debate in the past and I've come to conclude that we have almost identical views, but we haggle over word choices :) My beliefs have changed a bit since Kelly and I first had this discussion a number of years ago.

    The best essay I've read on ethics without "faith" is the one by Steven Pinker in this book.
  • RollingC said on Feb 23, 2008....

    @ Bloc....

    True...I had a religious upbringing and my parents practically tried to shove religion into me.  At first I followed blindly but later saw the hipocrites of the church and fell away for many years.  But I still maintained the kindness towards others whenever possible.

    I imagine that some people are inclined to do this by their very nature without the guidance of any religious teachings. 

    As for me, I was away from the church for many years until one day I had an experience that moved me to come back. I'm still struggling with it but back I am and I'm there to stay. I'm also of the personality that would rather treat people with kindness and respect even without my religious background or experience, although I'll admit that I used to be much more abrupt and sometimes inconsiderate whenever it was to my advantage (back in my drinking and womanizing days), something which I won't do again even though I still fantize a bit whenever I see an attractive woman walking by.

    In short....I'm still the same person that I was back then but without a lot of the bad habits that I had. And I think my faith has something to do with that.

    My story is not yours and when it comes to walking the spiritual path, we all have our own path and nobody else can walk it for us...not even the church...all it can do is show you " a " way to do it that's all.

    My humble opinion....

    Rc

  • RollingC said on Feb 23, 2008....

    And yes....religion.....Catholic religion....has been used over the centuries as an excuse to violence.  But one must realize that it was just that.....an excuse....usually for greed and power hungry land grabbers like the Spanish conquest of the Americas. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples also.

    Rc

  • kelly said on Feb 23, 2008....
    "So, Kelly, what if you did not grow up in an environment that stresses consideration of those around you? "

    Then you probably won't be very considerate.  What is your point?
  • silverwhisper said on Feb 24, 2008....
    kelly: i don't recall saying that a person who doesn't follow a religion is not moral or ethical. indeed, i seem to recall saying the contrary. ?

    bloc: yes, i would say that you and namyogrl have faith--it simply isn't one dependent upon religion (in your case) or a judeo-christian one in hers. historically, people have used all manner of excuses to rationalize bad behaviors, yes: see also the crusades.

    ed
  • bluegum said on Feb 24, 2008....

    i dont know what god truly is i used to say i believe in god.the ten commandments sound ok .i'd like to believe like my wife does but it doesn't happen.what is faith ?,do some people realy believe in god or do they belive in a set of rules heaven ,the wonderful life with god, jesus whatever it is i have no desire for it .i enjoy most of this life ,this i can relate to.

  • silverwhisper said on Feb 24, 2008....
    bluegum, i'm sorry but i'm having trouble understanding what you're saying. ?

    ed
  • bloc said on Feb 24, 2008....
    @ed
    you inadvertently brought up I've wanted to blog about but haven't. namyogrl is a buddhist, what I said is straight out of buddhism, but I didn't use that label. Notice how you said that mine isn't dependent on religion and hers is ;)

    I was planning on making a post entitled, "Is Buddhism a religion?"
  • polarheart said on Feb 24, 2008....
    Kelly, my point is that in many cases (at least in my experience) religion (as I know it) gives an opportunity for people to change from the inside out i.e. to become kind and considerate and to actually become a benefit to society, even though they may not have grown up in a family where consideration etc was taught.
  • kelly said on Feb 24, 2008....
    polar:  Are you saying that only through religion one can change?  Or is it just 'a' way?
  • kelly said on Feb 24, 2008....
    "My faith comes in when I see good people die in terrorist actions or road accidents, or freak storms etc. I have faith that there is a reason for everything and that the Creator has the reasons and I cannot understand the overall picture. "

    Bingo.  Psychological defense mechanism.
  • polarheart said on Feb 24, 2008....

    No, Kelly, I believe you are the one who gave only one alternative for people to be kind and considerate:

    Yes.  But where I differ from everyone on this point is that you don't need a religion to teach you these things.  All you need is to grow up in an environment that stresses consideration of those around you.

     

    So, I am saying that religion gives an opportunity for people, who did not grow up in that kind of environment, to change.  I am sure that there must be some other ways people can change.

    What other ways do you believe people can become truly and sincerely "revamped"?  This is not a sarcastic question, I am honestly interested in your point of view.

    Thank you

    Polar

  • kelly said on Feb 24, 2008....
    Hm, I think that's an overly strict interpretation of my words.  You could just as easily include religion in that if you wanted to, provided you were actually raised in a religion that values those things highly.

    People often truly remake their lives when something catastrophic happens to them.   Say, a spouse leaving them or someone close dying or having an illness.  At these crisis points people often re-evaluate themselves in an intense introspection.  Some people turn to religion, probably because it comes with a ready made set of answers.  Others change their behavior based on conclusions they come to after heavy introspection.

    No one is motivated to change (even by religion) if life is going relatively smoothly, even if they happen to be complete jerks.  I'm sure mafia bosses go to church on a regular basis.
  • silverwhisper said on Feb 24, 2008....
    bloc: word are power, which correspondingly must mean then that labels are meaningful too, no?

    the why of a thing is massively important, if you ask me. when dealing with the subject of motivation then, how a person assesses his or her own motivations is important. note that at no point have i or anyone else suggested that religion has a monopoly on ethical guidelines, much less ethical behavior. :>

    ed
  • polarheart said on Feb 24, 2008....

    Kelly, I agree with you that people often "take stock" of their lives when something really hits them / or their loved one hard enough.  Some people often turn to religion too after such events.  Some people change through increased strength of willpower.

    Furthermore, just because people go to church does not make them true followers of a religion, but I am sure you know that already ;-)

  • bloc said on Feb 24, 2008....
    @polar
    "What other ways do you believe people can become truly and sincerely "revamped"? "

    Introspection

    @ed
    yeah, labels are meaningful. I just found it interesting that two nearly identical beliefs were viewed differently simply because one came with a label.

    @polar
    "Furthermore, just because people go to church does not make them true followers of a religion"

    This is the typical catch-22 of religion. My view on life is that introspection, curiosity, and empathy are the foundations of good living. Religion is neither good or bad in my eyes. When it's good it's merely a reminder of the things I mentioned before, but it's those things, and not religion, that are important.
  • Trinov said on Feb 24, 2008....
    Hi, reading through a few answers , wanted to respond to a few--if this is too long then feel free to delete it--

    A human being, with a normal range of IQ, who has been in a position where he has had enough to eat, and time to observe the world, could be expected to come to the conclusion that, in most cases, a society can best function when everyone treats his fellow citizens with respect and so decide to act this way -If this same person, when put in extreme circumstances, such as being a refugee, or any kind of inmate, or a victim of a flood or a famine, can continue to keep his logical pattern of considerate behavior, then we all would agree that this person is someone of strong conscience and strong will.

    The only difference between this person, and someone who is religious, is that in the matter of person to person contact, this person might be considered on a higher level,--since an atheist sees this world as ownerless and purposeless, the product of "evolution" of random chromsomes, and a religious person, even someone who believes in many minor gods and godesses and jains and demons, conceives of the world as being purposeful to some extent, and not random, and having an Owner or owners and would fear some kind of retribution or punishment if he treated the creations of these powers with cruelty. Therefore, an atheist is acting in a way that is without any expectation of reward (or punishment) and therefore being truly altruistic.

    (The question comes up, how many were there like this in the history of our civilization who had this level of Derech Eretz-- as it is defined in Hebrew-which in English we would need a few sentences to define: ie a way of behavior that always considers the other-and the other's needs' as important as his own, whether the other is human or animal or plant, while not giving up his needs, ie a balance, and giving human beings the rights to protect themselves from the abuse of other species but not abusing or wasting any other creator .... ie a bit complicated to define )

    There are 'Midrashic stories', ie stories about Bible stories that were passed down orally or in non- religious books --such as Sefer HaYaShar, which tell of the people who built the Tower of Babel, whatever that structure really was--and they were living in what we would call a communistic society, or a communalistic society and each one was cared for by his neighbor and the Midrash says that the Creator saw them as good people, as long as they cared for each other, even if they had no belief or awe or understanding of Him . But when they, over some time, became a 'bottom line' society-- where only this enterprise--which we know as the Tower of Babel--became more important than the people involved in the enterprise--did the Creator see them as evil-and disperse them to lower levels of technology.

    And it cannot be assumed that everyone who becomes religious does so becasue of traumatic situations. Most of the people whom I know, who returned to become practicing Jews did so from an intellectual understanding and observation of the world, and some, especially the mathematicians and scientists, from 'seeing G-d' in the actions of science or mathematics. A cousin of mine and all his collegues become religious one day after seeing a certain physics experiment, mathematicians became religious after being asked to research the Torah codes (which are much more complex than the ones that only go in one direction and which supposedly can sometimes be found in other works--)

    So while a person without consideration or an adult conscience can clothe themselves in the words of various relgions, and use these religions in an abusive or demogogic way, and history has reams of these abuses, a person who sees the world as having an Owner or Creator, even a simple person who cannot sit down and independently philosophise about society and behaviors etc, and even a person with great greed and ambition, if they truly believe that this world is not random and ownerless, will be more likely to attempt to behave to others in a way that will not bring the wrath of the Owner down on his head. (Some forms of Budhism have very strict codes of behavior to all creatures, even though they do not acknowledge a Creator, but they believe in consequences of actions, which is also a framework of reward and punishment.) ,
  • bloc said on Feb 24, 2008....
    "even a person with great greed and ambition, if they truly believe that this world is not random and ownerless, will be more likely to attempt to behave to others in a way that will not bring the wrath of the Owner down on his head."

    I hear this often yet my life experience tells me that it isn't true. Or maybe 90% of believers don't really believe. Let me be more specific. The vast majority of slave owners during American slavery were believers yet it appears to have had no effect on them whatsoever. Actually, their religion was used to justify their barbarity.

    "Therefore, an atheist is acting in a way that is without any expectation of reward (or punishment) and therefore being truly altruistic."

    Great point.
  • silverwhisper said on Feb 25, 2008....
    trinov: i never delete comments b/c they're lengthy. ever. were that the case, i'd have likely had comments of my own deleted in turn. :>

    i very much appreciate your saying what bloc reproduced in that second quotation and needless to say, i agree, although i wouldn't call that a "higher level".

    the point has been made by many people who consider themselves religious (no one in this discussion, mind) that were it not for fear of being disciplined that people would inexorably revert to savagery and barbarism. those are the people that worry me: turned loose, they would have no qualms justifying terrible things.

    in the midrash story you mention, i'm curious--the story w/ which i am familiar suggests that the tower was destroyed due to human arrogance to daring to reach towards the heavens but here, the reason is very different--it's almost like a very small version of the great flood, isn't it?

    bloc: well, come now, irrespective of the what, the why is different. religion will forever and always be a different thing than what we can derive and determine through the strict application of logic, wouldn't you say?

    ed
  • Trinov said on Feb 25, 2008....
    Hi, the Midrashim--or translated --the 'extrapolations'---are many and varied. I had a nice series of books in English with many examples of Midrashim--with the warning note that they were not meant to be taken literally. There are those meant to help children learn difficult subjects--ie they simplify and whitewash--think of teaching the story of the intended homosexual rape of Lot's guests to the fourth grade (--I said that they wanted to beat them up, for example) , and those with hints of much higher levels of understanding that only brilliant scholars can figure out.

    Why are there these Midrashim--because the Bible is written in hints inself and in order to understand the hints there are certain logical rules that are applied. The Midrashim sometimes explain what was actually going on in more detail than the Bible.

    When I was in college, in a comparitive religion class in a secular college (which in general managed somehow ususally to be deadly boring in spite of the potential in the material) we had to compare the Illiad and one of the scenes of war from the Bible. And what we saw was that while the Illiad mentioned every weapon and every company involved, the Bible mentions very little of the particulars of the wars.

    On the other hand, the Bible mentions every detail of the Mishkan(the portable Temple) in the wilderness that only existed for forty years or so. The conclusion is that the Bible is not a history book, or a do it your-self manuel, its function is to teach Jews the Jewish relgion-with the aid of the Oral Teachings that were given privately to Moses (and who "passed them to Joshua and Joshua to the Elders and the Elders to the prophets and the prophets to the men of the Great Assembly" until they were allowed to be written down in the Mishnah and later the Talmud.

    Other Midrashim extrapolate moral applications of the very concise stories and others set out the way laws are to be observed and other levels give hints of higher kabbalistic levels of understanding-- for the Torah of Moses has four levels of understanding--: the plain text, the moralistic level, the legalistic level, and the secret level --ie both Kabalistic level --and the Chassidic level, which comes out of Kabbalah.

    There are a lot of hints of a more technological civilization that existed in early times--the word Tzohar--which is usually interpreted as 'window'-- in the Ark is also translated in a Midrash as 'a gem that held all the wisdom of the world and which guided the Ark' --ie some huge computer and or computer chip ( a faceted gem equals lots of chip space).

    I remember a lesson from Rabbi Friendman in which he said that the technology of ancient Egpyt was very high. (There is evidence in the alternate archeology books--with reproduced pictures etc--that the Egyptian civilization had some type of electricity. ( clay electric batteries were found by the dozens in ancient Syria and some similar simple clay batteres were used by the town merchants in that area to gold plate copper jewelry and sell it to the Beduins as pure gold- as late as the 19th century). Gold models that look like advanced jets were in Egyptian tombs and when given to engineers to analyze--the conclusions were that they were highly aerodynamic jet planes. (The Egyptians had group tours to 'ancient sites' where they wrote graffitti and stole 'antiques'--- plus c'est change-plus c'est la meme chose.)
  • bloc said on Feb 25, 2008....
    "religion will forever and always be a different thing than what we can derive and determine through the strict application of logic, wouldn't you say?"

    Maybe, but what I said wasn't, and probably couldn't be, determined through the strict application of logic.
  • silverwhisper said on Feb 26, 2008....
    trinov: i'm mildly familiar w/ the existence of the midrashim and the role of the blessed sages of memory. :> i think that the midrashim are something that most gentiles would find exceedingly novel--heaven knows i did when i first encountered the idea.

    are you saying the egyptians were that advanced, or that they were merely familiar w/ another culture that was? i'm familiar w/ the gold model to which you refer. ?

    bloc: you said you believe that we can live only in the present moment and that you believe nothing is permanent. those are indeed reasonable conclusions to draw through the strict application of logic, actually: we cannot live in past or future moments; and entropy is an inexorable force that wears down everything just as the glaciers carved fjords and mountains in the last ice age. ?

    ed
  • Trinov said on Feb 26, 2008....
    Hi, from my readings, and also from a lesson on tape from Rabbi Mannis Freedman, (not as I spelled it) it does seem that Egpyt itself-as well as other ancient civilizations had a higher technology than most historians admit to now. There is the issue of the maps--have you read : Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings, Evidence of Advanced Civilization in the Ice Age by Charels H. Hapgood, for starters? It's a Dutton Paperback, NY 1979 edition that we have. This is ink on paper evidence that at various times in the past there were mariners or geographers capable of accurately mapping the whole planet.

    Then I've seen Portolano maps--used by Columbus from what I've read--which gave accurate maps of north america before Columbus, sometimes with Florida and California under water! One map said to be from the 1500's had California accurately drawn, with a note that there were gold mines there, as in Peru--this map is in Hebrew-- and may have been copied from the maps of the time of the First Temple when King Solomon had sent out minors to mine gold on joint Israeli- Lebanese ships.

    From the works of Barry Fell we know that the Libyans, with some Jewish navigators and sailors, navigated the whole world and had an international date line somewhere to the east of where we have it now, but the concept was known then. And they may have left some people on Hawaii, and in other places, from shipwrecks or inability to continue the shipping lanes.

    Our academic sources relay on Roman history, and the Romans were not that well informed about all the shipping going on. They tortured the secret of the sea currents that brought ships to India out of Arab and Jewish sailors, but they had no idea of the shipping going on to the Americas--or the currents from Spain to Ireland etc.

    The information that I have hinted about is actually in books in older academic libraries, for universities have contracts to buy everything published by such and such a publisher, and don't even bother to put all these books on the shelves sometimes. These books, however are findable and they have the real history of the world that the Roman/Germanic oriented historians don't want to deal with.

    Most people don't even know that there are Irish historians who have a different view of history, for the Irish are marginal to the English. Most Westerners don't have access to the accounts in Arabic (which I don't have personally either for I dropped out of Arabic classes unfortunately) or Persian or Amharic etc which give information that could blow our minds. What we do have are books by people like Barry Fell who could read a dozen or so languages and who is still not accepted by the academic 'Guild' for that is just what they are, and not a very honest guild either!

    So the possibility that the nobility of Egpyt could fly jets (while the peasants were hauling water by hand) is not so farfetched, hey it's more or less the reality today. In Iraq there are still people living on the rivers who could be in the early Iron age and in Ethiopia there are people in the country side in the late stone age in some respects--they may or may not have a transistor radio, but their home made tools in use everyday are possibly still of well chipped stone with wooden handles glued with tree resin-- I saw this in an anthropology magazine ten years ago and saved the article.

    High levels of technology are dependent on organization, and when organization is destroyed by wars or major earthquakes etc, what is left is the peasant survival level which may be in a different technological base completely, or there may be nothing left and the civilization disappears.
  • RollingC said on Feb 26, 2008....
    Trinov:
    Where could one find on the web some books or information about this? This is most interesting stuff.
    Rc
  • Trinov said on Feb 26, 2008....
    Hi, to RollingC--there is a website on alternate archeology, and these questions come up on a few websites we go to--I'll try to make a list since I can't recall all the names offhand.
  • bloc said on Feb 26, 2008....
    "you believe nothing is permanent. those are indeed reasonable conclusions to draw through the strict application of logic, actually"

    So are you saying that a belief in a permanent soul is contradicted by basic logic? ;)
  • Trinov said on Feb 26, 2008....
    http://www.unexplainedearth.com/index.php

    http://www.mcremo.com/

    http://www.forbiddenarcheology.com/

    http://www.coasttocoastam.com/

    http://www.indiancountry.com/index.cfm

    http://www.asis.com/users/stag/americab.html

    http://equinox-project.com/drfell.htm
  • Trinov said on Feb 26, 2008....
    Hi, three more: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:www.trends.net/~yuku/tran/tcoin.htm+%22
    http://www.trends.net/~yuku/tran/tcoin.htm
    http://planetvermont.com/pvq/v9n2/megaliths.html
  • bloc said on Feb 26, 2008....
    Here is a counter to one of those links.
  • bloc said on Feb 26, 2008....
    @ed
    regarding what is and isn't religion. I think Einstein's thoughts may help illustrate the weird dichotomy we're discussing. Here are some of htis thoughts.

    "Yes, you can call it that," Einstein replied calmly. "Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible laws and connections, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in fact, religious."

    "The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our minds cannot grasp, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly: this is religiousness. In this sense, and in this sense only, I am a devoutly religious man."

    Now, what Einstein believes is clearly not a monotheistic religion. Hell, most religious people on this site will not be able to articulate a difference between Einstein's thoughts and those they label nonreligious.

    Here is his explanation

    But throughout his life, Einstein was consistent in rejecting the charge that he was an atheist. "There are people who say there is no God," he told a friend. "But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." And unlike Sigmund Freud or Bertrand Russell or George Bernard Shaw, Einstein never felt the urge to denigrate those who believed in God; instead, he tended to denigrate atheists. "What separates me from most so-called atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos," he explained.

    Here are more of his thoughts

    "The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

    "I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."

    ...

    "I am fascinated by Spinoza's pantheism, but I admire even more his contribution to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and body as one, and not two separate things."

    Do you believe in immortality? "No. And one life is enough for me."



  • Trinov said on Feb 26, 2008....
    Hi, just a note, Einstein was a supporter of Israel, in spite of all his philosophy, and his rejection of a religious education that he chose in his teens. His actions somewhat contradict his denial of G-d as interested in history and the particular, and I wonder what he would say to Professor Branover and other religious scientists. He is also far from the only genious my people has produced, so we are not that impressed by him.
  • Trinov said on Feb 26, 2008....
    Hi, I found these links on Hapgood and the portolano maps and the book The Atlantean which tells of Celtic and other mariners in ancient times-- :

    http://www.buy.com/prod/the-atlantean-irish-ireland-s-oriental-maritime-herritage/q/loc/106/202231237.html http://www.geocities.com/athens/troy/6396/lightfall051.htm Re Hapgood's book: "This book contains the story of the discovery of the first hard evidence that advanced peoples preceded all the peoples now known to history. In one field, ancient sea charts, it appears that accurate information has been passed down from people to people ... We have evidence that they were collected and studied in the great library of Alexandria and that compilations of them were made by the geographers who worked there. Before the catastrophe of the destruction of the great library many of the maps must have been transferred to other centers, chiefly, perhaps, to Constantinople, which remained a center of learning in the Middle Ages ... Unbelievable as it may appear, the evidence nevertheless indicates that some ancient people explored the coasts of Antarctica when its coasts were free of ice"

    http://stumphengedesign.com/maps4.htmThe Portolano maps

    "These were maps drawn explicitly for Seafarers. The Dulcert Portalano map suddenly appeared in Europe around 1339. It was highly accurate.
    However it did not get any better but was simply copied over for the next two hundred years. The original maps from which these maps were copied contained an accurate ratio of latitude to longitude.
    It could only have been done if the original map maker had precise information of the relative longitudes of a great many places all the way from Galway in Ireland to the river Don in Russia."
  • TinSoldier said on Feb 26, 2008....
    bloc -- your last post sums up my own thoughts beautifully.
  • bloc said on Feb 26, 2008....
    "Hi, just a note, Einstein was a supporter of Israel, in spite of all his philosophy, and his rejection of a religious education that he chose in his teens. His actions somewhat contradict his denial of G-d as interested in history"

    I didn't understand this.
  • Trinov said on Feb 26, 2008....
    hi, to bloc--many atheist Jews found it convenient not to associate at all with their people and to intermarry , for the basic connection is that we are a people who have a destiny that has been determined by G-d. There have been even Zionists who called themselves Caananites, and today there are leftist atheist intellectuals who go all the way and identify with the palestinians to the point that Jewish children loosing their hands or legs to Kassam rockets doesn't bother them, but Arab teenagers who throw rocks or molotov cocktails at Jews and get hurt by a rubber bullet make them ballistic.

    Einstein, whose egotism and the social isolation of someone with his IQ, made him a bad husband and a lousy father, still felt a deep connection to his people in general, which belies the statement that he did not see G-d as interested in history. For if he had no concept of G-d in history, he would have easily cut himself of from Jewish survival, just as easily as he cut himself off from his own children. That's my grasp of the situation--for he did not see himself as bound by usual emotional ties, and so his ties to fellow Jews was most probably philosophically based, not emotionally based.
  • RollingC said on Feb 26, 2008....
    Thank you for the links....I'll be following up on them.    :^)      Rc
  • bloc said on Feb 26, 2008....
    "[He] still felt a deep connection to his people in general, which belies the statement that he did not see G-d as interested in history."

    I think this is nonense. The man said many times that he did not believe in a personal God that cared about the daily happenings of humans. The fact that he worked for world peace and to defend jewish people against Nazis is not proof of a belief in a personal god. Not even close.

    By the way, creating starwmen about the views of liberals toward the israel/palistine issue is not helping your cause.
  • Trinov said on Feb 26, 2008....
    Hi, they ain't strawmen, they are called Peace Now and some other names. And one's view of Israel is a cosmic test, those that fail, fail,-- I have seen that truth does not matter to most people anymore. Truth is available in spades on the internet, but most people prefer nonsence and propaganda.

    It's much more convenient to take the Arab money and hate the Jews, even to some liberal Jews. I truly don't give a damn if people with your viewpoint care if we survive or not. Your viewpoint is only your problem, not mine- I have other things to worry about.

    And so do you: You can worry about the declining wheat surplus, the dying dollar, all those people being foreclosed out of their houses, the TB epidemic that is coming from the new strains, US police and guards tazering people to death, fake oxygen containers on commercial airplane flights, the submarines of Iran and their new missiles that can go anywhere (read their English websites) etc etc etc.

    You liberals: "Love me, l love me,I'm a liberal" was a Pete Seiger song back in the 1960's. I've always been a radical myself. Oh and didn't Einstein say "G-d does not play dice with the universe"
  • bloc said on Feb 26, 2008....
    your babbling doesn't make much sense and assumes all kinds of things that you know nothing about. 

    My quotes above make clear Einstein's stance on God and religion. He did not believe in a personal God described in religions like Christianity and Judaism.
  • Trinov said on Feb 27, 2008....
    Hi, as a 63 year old who has read broadly from the time she was 10 years old on all sorts of subjects that you obviously have never heard of, and who had the privilege of knowing and learning from some geniouses, I can tell you that my babbling as you call it, has often had predictive value.

    I've been called a fascist and lots of other names in my time -- as when I insisted on preparing my kibutz for a war because of what I managed to observe and read and analyze, and when the war 'happened' people like you said "Oh my gosh, how did you know, you must have been psychic!"

    You are still so sure of yourself, and so young too. You are still very firmly in the matrix young man and so are in the control of others. And even as a senior citizen I'm never really sure of myself and am constantly testing the answers our there-- and know that I would have been dead 40 years ago had I been as ignorant and as self assured then as you are now. But ignorance is a disease that is always curable, if you open your mind just a bit it.
  • bloc said on Feb 27, 2008....
    "people like you"

    This is where your ignorance lies. You've created some nice little boxes, ultra simplistic, that you use to get through life. When you encounter something that challenges you, you find a way to stick it into one of your little boxes so you can dismiss it without considering the actual ideas present. this is what you are doing here with me.
  • silverwhisper said on Feb 27, 2008....
    trinov: i have several things to say to you.

    1. OK, that's quite enough about speculative archaeology. there are quite clearly forgeries running around out there and some legitimate puzzles. you're delving very deeply into conspiracy theory-land and that's not a place i wish to visit.

    2. yes, we all know that no one group has a monopoly on genius. trust me, other people than you actually know this. frankly, i find it insulting that you seem to think that you alone hold this knowledge.

    3. i'm a liberal and i don't subscribe to the nonsense you claim liberals do. if you really believe all liberals are like that, you're pitiable, trinov, b/c for all you claim to have read, you have obviously learned precious little of real value. yes, some liberals believe that. but now it's my turn to teach you: this is a very small number of liberals, just like only a very small number of conservatives are nazis. why else do you think i read lbf the riot act when he made the same brainless charge months ago? it's ignorance, pure and simple. so either you can admit you overstated and we can agree not to discuss politics, or you can try to prove that your unwarranted generalization of liberals is actually valid. i hope you pick the former as the latter is going to be impossible.

    bloc: yes, i am saying that belief in a permanent soul is contradicted by the direct application of logic. why should it be otherwise? we can see things born, grow, grow old, wither and die every day of our lives. the idea of a soul itself is contrary to what we can prove through logic--which is part of why logic is a limited tool in the search for knowledge.

    strictly speaking, the notion of the soul and body as two separate things is actually an old christian heresy so i somehow doubt spinoza is the first philosopher making that statement.

    ed
  • Trinov said on Feb 27, 2008....
    Hi, I was aimed at Bloc actually not at at you at all-- I guess I should have specified--but I don't see you as that young, you're in your forties I'd guess? or late thirties.

    Why would you assume-- that I assume--that I am the only one knowing something?

    --re liberals, I've grown up with them, and have been arguing with liberals (friends and relatives for the most part) and other radicals and conservatives since the early 1960's and yes there all different types of liberals, but in recent years there has been a very anti-Israel trend on major US campuses, (The arab professor who got tenure at Barnard who believes that ancient Israel never existed for example) and on English campuses to the point of an attempted England wide boycot of Israel by academics and by a major labor union etc and where Israel students are treated abominably (and I can't understand why they are in England in the first place).

    And the Israeli liberals, who are in very vocal organizations here, are markedly absent when Jews on the borders are murdered or maimed and very vocal when any Arab is involved-- for instance I haven't read of Peace Now or Amnesty International Israel Branch making waves about Sderot and the two children maimed last week and I try to read all the headlines of all the on-line Israeli Hebrew newspapers every day at least once a day as well as many American papers,and the BBC and some Arab English papers also. But they do get vocal about Arab children who are hurt in Israeli counter raids,( and many of these Arab children end up in Israeli hospitals for their families perfer Jewish doctors).

    While I can't prove that all or most liberals are anti- Israel, that is not what I tried to prove, but neither could you prove that the majority of liberals want to see a strong Israel, one with defensible borders, with Jerusalem as its capitol and no PLO state, from any recent demonstrations of solidarity in print or otherwise, for if this solidarity exists, it hasn't been in CNN, or Fox, or NBC etc for the last few years for I go into them also as well as the Jewish Week etc etc. Sorry I offended you, but I had gotten the impression that you were more open to things than I guess you actually are--why for example are ancient maps considered part of a conspiracy theory? That is beyond me, actually. Hapgood is as good an academic as anyone else in the standard use of the term. And reading Irish historians? they have access to many interesting facts that say English or German historians don't have-- since they have a different civilization to fall back on .

    My main reason for blogging is bringing otherwise unavailable information to those others who might be interested. I see also that sometimes somebody needs an affirmation of their feelings or even some advice that I can reasonably give, having been a teacher and a also sometimes a social worker and being an older woman who has survived a few types of hell, and lived to laugh again. And I've been a collecter of information of all sorts since I am curious, and being a religious person does not make me a fool who believes everything written either. But I've had a good record of seeing things before they manifest themselves as major headlines, since I follow the news and the researches mentioned and very few things happen out of the blue.
  • tbs230 said on Feb 27, 2008....
    Discussing religion always seems so useless sometimes, because honestly, EVERYTHING we've learned and everything we hold dear stem from religion.

    To be kind and show people respect sounds like something a good person would have learned by growing up in a good community, but religion has been around forever, and therefore so has these beliefs.

    I don't think I'm making any sense...

    Show me an instance where someone's belief in what's right or wrong didn't come from religion. And I mean, hardcore proof. Meaning your parents weren't religious, no one in your community was religious, the country you're in doesn't have religious foundations.

    You might have decided that you didn't need God in order to be a good person, but you learned what was right and wrong because of religion. Even if you didn't realize