silverwhisper's tags:
courtesy of elsewhere...

short version: a married british woman argues that a sexless marriage must be common experience and is proclaiming the same thing in a book that will be published. long version here.

commentary: as i said, it’s courtesy of elsewhere, which in this case means another of my online haunts. now, in the resulting discussion, i observed that it’s not like she has a duty to have sex with her husband or anything—and promptly, two of the folks there disagreed.

she admits she stays in her sexless relationship for the sake of her children, aged nine and 11, and will remain celibate until the day they are grown up and she feels able to leave. at which point, she confesses, she will probably abandon her husband and begin a sexual odyssey to find the satisfaction that eludes her.

now, me personally, i think that almost every problem in a relationship takes 2 to tango, but i think that she ought to leave the marriage rather than stay for the sake of the kids—i know several people here on SC would argue the same.

so yes, i think she’s a bad person, but what about the husband, who apparently makes advances but evidently has not tried to address the question of “why”? to me, he bears half the responsibility for never asking that question.

but that’s not really the question i want to ask: the question i want to ask is simple: in marriage, is sex a duty? and what does “duty” mean to you, at least in this context?

ed

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Comments

  • Battycat said on Feb 01, 2008....

    No, it's not a duty in marriage.

     Duty to me is something you feel you have to do, whether you want to or not. I couldn't have sex under those conditions, I'd rather leave the relationship/ marriage.

  • evil_twin said on Feb 01, 2008....
    No, I don't think it's a duty. That implies that you have to do it, whether you want to or not. And as far as I'm concerned, neither party should be okay with that. But with that said, if sex isn't a part of your marriage, then something is wrong.

    If someone in the marriage doesn't ever want to have sex, then the reasons for that need exploring. It shouldn't ever have to be considered a 'duty' because both people should want it to happen. It's a natural expression of love. And if they don't feel that, the whole relationship needs to be evaluated.

    -evil_twin LA
  • pickersplock said on Feb 01, 2008....
    Huh?  This makes no sense to me!  If you don't want to have sex with the other person, then why get married in the first place?  Of course she must have done it at some point because they have children!
     
  • the_infernal_optimist said on Feb 01, 2008....
    I don't think it's a duty. Sex should never happen just because you feel duty-bound to do it - where's the bonding, the whole multi-faceted experience, if you're just doing it because you think you should/feel you have to do it?

    Duty to me means something that you feel compelled to do out of a sense of honor or rightness, almost to the point of obligation in some cases, and even with personal preference to the contrary.

    I think he should've asked why a long time ago. It's not always pretty (trust me) but it's worth knowing, especially on matters like that, that have significant impact on a relationship.

    ~Infernal
  • agnesanonymous said on Feb 01, 2008....
    I second eviltwin's opinion. If there isn't desire in the marriage, there is a big problem; sex should be ENJOYED whether you're married or not if you truly love that person. My parents hated each other and my mother stayed only because of us and she had a miserable life with a man who treated her terribly and the like. Thusly, I say she should leave.
  • uniquely-ironic said on Feb 01, 2008....
    I agree with all above that it is not a duty.  I do think that something went terribly wrong in that relationship for it to have ended up this way.  If she is staying soley for the kids and is planning to go on a sexual rampage after they're grown it shows a marked lack of integrity on her part.  She is just using the husband, which I find unacceptable if he is not aware of her feelings.  I'm not sure how I'd feel if he knew all of this and was okay with her motivation to stay.
  • Eilan said on Feb 01, 2008....
    You know how I feel about staying together for the sake of the children.

    I know I'm just repeating what everybody else has already said, but I don't think sex is/should be a duty (I see duty as obligation).  Treating sex like it's something that has to be done, like going to work or loading the dishwasher or taking out the trash, is a good way to breed resentment.

    I, too, am curious as to why the husband hasn't tried to get to the bottom of this.  Unless he's selfish when it comes to sex and doesn't see a reason to change what he's doing, then doesn't she owe it to him to tell him what she wants/needs?

    When I was in about 7th grade or so, I realized that some of my parents' nighttime arguing had to do with my mom's refusal to have sex, or do what my dad would have called her "duty as a woman" (seriously).  In this case, though, I don't blame my mom.  If my husband beat me and told told me I was fat and ugly, yet didn't allow me to lose weight or do anything to change my appearance, I wouldn't feel much like putting out, either.  It's not like agreeing to have sex would have improved the relationship.

    Perhaps it's time for me to resurrect another old blog entry, even though it's not quite the same issue?
  • beyondtheveil said on Feb 01, 2008....
    Ed- I generally agree with the comments above, but it makes me wonder how many marriages in the world have a problem with one or the other becoming less than thrilled with sex with their partner as time goes by after having children or not. I firmly believe the percentage is quite high.

    To answer your question, when the desire for sex in marriage no longer exists for one, the continuation of it will probably be looked upon as a duty. The question then becomes should one deny an important part of life to the other indefinitely or should one or both look for it elsewhere? Neither is a good answer for the couple or the children.

    I read the long version and I believe the woman has a problem with sex and will continue to have it after she leaves. She had twenty-three lovers before and never achieved satisfaction (had one orgasm), said it was "ok" with her husband in the beginning, which leads me to think she will never find it.

    I think this disgruntled woman, both being financially secure, should get a divorce leaving the children with the husband and continue her epic journey to find satisfaction elsewhere, which I feel she will never find. The husband can then find a compatible married life and provide the children with a two parent home.

    Sex should not be looked upon as a duty in marriage, but a huge number of them are. Sex is expected in marriage, so the question is not so much is it a duty within  marriage, but rather if one no longer desires the other what course of action is best for all concerned.
  • rightwingwizard said on Feb 01, 2008....

    IMHO sex is neither obligatory, nor is it neccessary in a marital relationship.  Over the years I have know many couples who have had essentially sexless marriages for years and their relationship was sound.  It is when one or both partners place too much importance on the sexual aspect of their relationship that things tend to go badly for them.

    Also the notion that one partner is the giver and the other the taker in sex is fundamentally flawed.  If a couple's sexual experience is not a 'shared' one they are certainly not making love in the sense that many of us think.  They are merely satisfying an urge much like two dogs in the back yard. 

    Sex is, for most, pleasurable.   It is however, neither essential for happiness, nor an indicator of marital bliss.  I have known many couples who claimed to have had fantastic sex lives who were otherwise most unhappy in their relationshops. 

    Sex is simply what it is.

    Just one man's opinion!

    rww

  • nytquill17 said on Feb 01, 2008....
    You know I can't resist a good history lesson.

    Sex used to be a duty in marriage.  For much of history marriage was nothing but an economic and reproductive institution - a way to ensure that children were made and that the lineage of those children could be traced (incidentally, that's why virginity became an issue - to ensure that the first baby, at least, was legitimate).  The original marriage "ceremony" as developed in Greece consisted simply of the father of the bride telling the groom, "I give you this woman for the ploughing of legitimate children."   You see this carried on in the Catholic tradition of no birth control and large families.  Sex literally was a woman's duty to her husband - made that way to ensure she didn't heed her survival instincts to avoid the huge physical risk of pregnancy.

    Here in Quebec, which used to be heavily Catholic and still carries on many Catholic traditions in its culture, you only have to go back a generation or two to find stories of the parish priest visiting families who hadn't had a child in the last two years to ask them what was wrong!

    But that's history, it's not the way things are now.  Sex has become an optional "fun" activity, an expression of love.  I think that's a good thing!  Sex is not a duty, it's not something you have to do just because you're in a relationship.  Even after marriage sex is something that has to be worked at, worked for, and come to voluntarily by all parties!

    I agree with this lady and I don't.  I think it's great that she's getting the word out about what sex, especially sex in relationships, is really like.  We hype it up way too much and yet we're still ashamed to talk directly about it.  Sometimes sex is terrible.  Sometimes it's boring!  Sometimes you don't want to.  But we feel like we all have to be having hot jungle moneky sex and keeping the neighbors awake at night or there's something wrong!  So I'm all for opening up about that and being realistic.

    BUT I think this woman can't commit!!  As soon as she got into a permanent relationship, as soon as she had kids and realized that, at least by her reasoning, she's stuck with this man for many years until the kids are grown, she lost interest.  It's true married sex isn't the same as sex with a string of boyfriends.  It takes a little more work.  It seems to me like instead of putting any effort into her marriage or trying to adapt, she just threw up her hands and quit.  I mean, she's basically resigned from that marriage - saying straight out she plans to leave!

    To me, that's a little bit selfish.  She's not obligated to have sex with him, certainly, or to stay with him.  And he could be an oaf for all I know.  But it seems like, for the man that you supposedly love, the man you said your vows to and the father of your children, you might at least TRY to examine your own issues?
  • husbandhater said on Feb 01, 2008....

    Duty means things that you must do it Like clean the bathroom,cook dinner,etc,.,.

    Sex is not a duty nor a right. It is up to the giver to share themself with any individual including their husband. It is a GIFT.  And when people don't want to share themself physically nor emotionally it is their right!

    I'll be honest and share. My husband and I donot have sex and haven't for awhile b/c I don't like his behavior,nor his actions. They turn me off emotionally,and this transsends into the physical. Part of it is the tiredness from my job but that is such a small part. When someone doesn't appreciate what you do for them,the sacrafices you make for them. When someone speaks to you and says things to you and about you that are so hurtful and they do it infront of your children at times would you really want to share yourself with this individual?

    Sex is not just physical it is emotional also and although you can have one with out the other in some instances I think in a marriage they tend to go hand and hand. Right now I would like to seperate from my marriage. I want nothing to do with my husband. Everytime I think he does something right and that he gets it he does something bigger and stupider to screw up what I just said. Right now I would just like to be alone and I know for a fact that he doesn't get that. He thinks I'm suppose to just suck it up and get over it but life isn't that simple and sometimes you can't just get over it.

    These are the things that lead to the breakdown of a marriage.

  • wombat said on Feb 01, 2008....
    I don't believe sex in a marriage is a "duty," but a shared gift.  What one chooses to do with one's body (or not) is an individual choice, and one "marriage" may be different from another.  I could see myself staying in a sexless marriage before I could stay in a "loveless" one.  Oh, heck--I tried to stay in my last one for the sake of the child, but I didn't last too long.  What sex had to do with that was that neither of us wanted to have it with each other any longer once the love was gone.
  • TinSoldier said on Feb 01, 2008....
    I think that there are a lot of duties in a marriage, but defining them exactly is up to the specific couple at hand.

    In many marriages, I think that sex is a duty for both partners. Not the kind like cleaning the bathroom, but... well, everyone has an off night once in awhile.

    But clear communication is definitely a duty in marriage, and both of these people have failed, IMO.
  • Mr_Box said on Feb 01, 2008....

    Definitely not a duty. It should be a desire instead. A duty is something that is expected to be performed like a job.

    Sex isn't a job. It's affection. You can't be required to give someone affection if you don't feel it for them.

    Of course if you don't feel affection and desire for your spouse, it sounds like a problem.

    I think staying in a marriage for the kids sake is completely misguided. Kids know when their parents hate each other. It affects them.

    It'd be better to separate and have both parents happy, than together and miserable. Especially if there's a lot of fighting going on.

  • wombat said on Feb 01, 2008....
    (I like Mr Box's words--helps pull a few stray threads together for me....)
  • Lucytorial said on Feb 01, 2008....
    I'm sure there are many sexless relationships in the world for right or wrong reasons for me sex is a very important part of relationships, it is another form of communication and connection with someone you (supposedly) love.

    Duty is like a rosta, sexless, it has no meaning beyond the letters put together and I don't associate it with marriage or life.

    If communication (in all of its forms) does not factor as a mainstay in a relationship then it is detrimental to all involved, children can grow up not knowing how to show love, respect, tenderness, affection... so it is best to be happier with your situation than show children the wrong way of conducting relationships...

    Thats Lucy's five bob worth.. anyway.
  • dyingman said on Feb 01, 2008....
    Sex is clearly a duty.
    Here at SC I've seen that duty neglected by both men and women.

    Libidos are frequently out of synch and many a marriage might be happier if some simple rules were changed.

    Take this woman staying in a marriage for 9 more years before investigating what gets he hot.  Why is she waiting?  Stay with the father of your children and explore other options.  Is divorce necessary to allow your spouse to acquire what she lacks?  It's all in that vow "forsaking all others".  Implied in that, I think, should be "without my spouse's permission."

    Some spouse's consent out of guilt.  Whence the guilt if sex was always about WANTING it rather than giving it?  Is this not a sense of responsibility?  Of duty?  If one forsakes all others, should it not be made more clear that this may mean "forsaking all" til death?

    If murderers could go free but retain their libidos but be denied sex until death, how many would choose to take their chances with parole or maybe even request the chair?

    Unhappy marriage as a sentence for a crime would be deemed unconstitutional yet people with the finest intentions are daily subjected to a fettered existence.

    Here's a poll for someone to run:
    Would you take drugs to increase/decrease your sex drive to match your spouse?

  • lfbno7 said on Feb 01, 2008....
    The perfect marriage would be one in which neither party would ever deny the other anything that is important to him/her. Each would place the other person's needs and wants above his or her own. So I think yes, sex is a duty in the perfect marriage. In that, I disagree with most everyone, but then again, don't I always? I don't mean to, I just do. I also think it is a duty for one spouse to give massages, or to draw little pictures on the other one's back with fingertips, if those are the things that the other person enjoys. To me it is just a question of whether you believe in selfishness or giving. My own marriage has been so far from perfect that I wouldn't do it again if I had the choice, but we never, and I mean never, said no to each other about sex. I never heard, or said, "I have a headache, sorry".
  • cotteralladams3 said on Feb 01, 2008....
    Then solve it or get a divorce.  Why do women complain about these matters and then do nothing about it?  I mean, ask him to get a physical and such.  Get counseling.  How hard is it to file a paper and ask for alimony and child support?  Moving and changing jobs, we have all done it.  Divorce is easy, maybe too easy, these days. 
  • Suddenrain said on Feb 01, 2008....
    I totally agree with RWW. :-) Good post SW.
  • D6fer said on Feb 01, 2008....
    yes....yes it is.....could someone please tell my wife? ;p
  • Fallyn said on Feb 02, 2008....
    i don't think it's a "duty" per se.

    however........i think both partners should be willing to involve themselves in sexual activities...even if it isn't a huge desire each time the other person wants to.

    i think it's hard on a partner to be told no way more often than yes.....
    but i think the partner wanting sex more often needs to be respectful of the others lower libido as well.

    not everyone has the same sex drive......and those things do change over time.
    now if it becomes a serious problem where one person doesn't want to at all....then they should seek help. ......and if it's just something where they simply don't love a partner anymore...then there is something much more serious than sex going on anyway,

    but i think that is something that is important to work with in a healthy relationship......the realization that desire is not always going to fit well together.
    sometimes you have a give a little more than you feel like........or hold back a little more than you feel like.......

    it's all about what you can live with without feeling used, or unfulfilled.

  • lfbno7 said on Feb 02, 2008....
    without feeling used? i love feeling used.
  • Lolaw75 said on Feb 02, 2008....
    Marriage is the "duty" but sex is just sex. The great thing with sex is it is a tool which can be used in many ways. Its a fun physical activity but also an expression of love. On the flip side it can be used for revenge and it is also an indicator of a persons physical and emotional/mental health. My husband and I got married too young and our marriage was not a bad one, just not made of the right things. We stopped having sex, neither (I think) strayed from the vows we made but by 21 we lived a life of celibacy. The reasons were down to a resentment we had, due to disappointment in the reality of married life and on my part, the expectancy that I should be a locum mother for my husband. We had sex, great sex, occasionally but the relationship was flawed and carrying on with it for 40+ years is a depressing thought and would have resulted i two bitter angry people. BUT if there were children involved the DUTY would be toward them. A unified, strong and supportive family must be maintained for their sake. It may be a sham and a facade but it is important for the childrens development.
  • PassionTraveler said on Feb 02, 2008....
    I didn't have kids, but I left a sexless marriage for that gratification. Was it the right decision? Yes, but not because it was sexless. It was passionless. No passion in life, love, sex, friendship, but it was comfortable. I don't believe that every time a man or woman says jump, the other should say how high, with regard to sex as a duty, but I do think to some degree, yes, it is most definitely a duty. Mind you, not a chore, but if I have a need, and if ocassionally it isn't being met, fine, no problem, but if it isn't being met on a consistent basis, the one in need, will look elsewhere. I did. I didn't want to, but in the end, sex, human intimacy, is most definitely a need that must be met. PT
  • silverwhisper said on Feb 02, 2008....
    battycat: see, i agree with you. i don't get this "duty" thing, myself.

    kyle: exactly! sex is supposed to be something you want to do, and as you said, if that desire isn't there, the entire relationship should be evaluated.

    pickers: they obviously did but apparently that was a while ago. it doesn't really make sense to me, either--but i think there's a definite problem here in that relationship.

    infernal: i agree that he should have asked. he apparently made advances and she rebuffed him, so why isn't the next step asking why? something like this, it takes two to tango as the expression goes. so WTF?!

    agnes: welcome to my blog and thanks for visiting! i know some other soulcasters who feel that way--that staying together for the children is really dumb (see eilan's comment, beneath yours).

    u-i: yeah, i agree that there's a definite lack of integrity on her part. this shouldn't be so difficult to figure out for either of them, if you ask me.

    eilan: o, i think you should definitely resurrect that blog entry. :> obviously, this case is different from that of your parents, b/c according to her, she thinks her husband is a good guy, no indications of any kind of abusive behavior by him, etc. the phrase "duty as a woman" i find repulsive. ick. and as you said, an excellent way to breed resent.

    beyond: i definitely agree she won't be finding sexual fulfillment readily. i agree the likelihood of seeing sex as a duty in a marriage is high and prevalent--which is itself IMHO a problem. and of course i agree w/ you about her course of action. i think she's definitely using her husband, as u-i pointed out earlier. ah, you know that i agree w/ every word. :>

    rww: i agree w/ almost everything you wrote, although i do find that the frequency and quality of sex in a relationship is in fact often a meaningful indicator, although i also agree there are certainly exceptions: some relationships have good sexual chemistry, others not so much. in the bad days before i met my wife, i was involved (for lack of a better word) w/ a woman where our sexual chemistry was incredible, but the relationship itself was fundamentally flawed.

    nyt: hi! i definitely agree that this woman's selfish--as u-i observed, she's using her husband i agree that's unacceptable. re: the history lesson, didn't marriage predate the greeks? historically, the jews have had marriage for a very long time, well before the greeks, no? i agree that sex in a relationship isn't always of the "swing from the chandeliers" variety and yeah, that's important to note. heck, i write erotica and it usually isn't of that variety in my own marriage! note that the woman in the story does say some rather complimentary things about her husband, though. that fact makes me unsympathetic to her.

    HH: the environment in a marriage definitely has to be conducive to having sex, i agree. i hope those things change for you, HH. i know you've mentioned talking w/ him about this in the past, and communication is good, but it's gotta be followed by actions to address those things or all the talking in the world doesn't amount to anything.

    wombat: an excellent point that the sex should spring from the love, as HH observed. i dunno, it seems so obvious to me, you know?

    TS: i agree both have failed at the communication: he isn't asking apparently, and she isn't interested in doing so. i find them both unsympathetic, myself. as to duties, well: what in your view constitutes a duty in a marriage?

    mr box: what, you mean you don't get olympic scoring from the mrs on your performance? :D seriously though: as eilan noted above, she knew. i've always thought this notion of staying together when you don't want to is colossally flawed. a loveless marriage to me doesn't exactly sound like a good environment in which to raise kids!

    tobi-lee: five bob? didn't you used to charge 2 bob? what happened, inflation? :D you know i agree w/ you that sex is communication, and in that light, TS's comment about both of them having failed to communicate takes on a deeper meaning. and a superb point re: showing children an example of a good relationship. :>

    dyingman: certainly there've been people here on SC who are having issues in their relationships, but that doesn't mean that sex is a duty to me. can you enlarge upon why sex is a duty? we can all see the problems in the marriage in the article, but i don't see how the idea of sex as a duty is necessary to make your other points valid. and that's a very interesting poll--would you mind if use it?

    lbf: you know, part of the reason i read you is b/c you often do go against the grain. that's important, i think. i'm not agreeing you, b/c as others have noted, saying that sex is a duty somehow makes it seem like something one should take, not give, for lack of a better word. and in my own marriage, we've both said that we're too tired. i dunno, i think that's actually normal: to me, a certain measure of compromise is necessary in a relationship.

    cotteralladams: you don't think the husband bears any responsibility for allowing this to go unchecked, apparently taking no actions to address the matter? why is it all her fault? the husband, AFAICT, hasn't done diddly-squat to address this.

    suddenrain: why thank you! :>

    d6: heh...why do you see it as a duty?

    fallyn: hi, nice to see you again! you've been awfully quiet lately: ? i don't know if this instance is a matter of libido or not, to be honest, so much as a loss of attraction. as a rule though i agree re: not feeling used & feeling unfulfilled.

    lolaw: welcome to my blog and thank you for visiting! i'm sorry to learn about the problems you faced in your marriage--as you speak of it in the past tense, does this mean that you're no longer married? several soulcasters have a very different view of staying together for the sake of the children, particularly eilan, and i'm inclined to think that she's right about it.

    PT: interesting...so i'm confused about why sex to you is a duty. yes, it's a need, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's an obligation, does it?

    ed
  • skald said on Feb 02, 2008....
    Ed My answer is not it should not be a duty, not for any woman or any man. 
  • humanbeing said on Feb 02, 2008....

    When asking the question "is sex a duty in marriage?" one perhaps should ask the question "what is duty?".

    Duty is a word meaning (in this context) - 'that which one is morally or legally obligated to do'.  Legality and morality are constructs of society and therefore subject to a wide variety of subjective interpretations. 

    It would seem logical to conclude that since 'duty' has its roots in society, it is only the implications of NOT complying with that society's expectations that the answer to the question about sex in marriage can be answered.

    By not complying with the expection of your partner, you come up against the rigidity of social behaviour and the sorrow and suffering that results when one person does not comply with the expectations of another, even if that persons expectations are shared by the majority.

    The notion that the social norm, i.e. the view shared by the majority of a particular society, culture or group, is somehow 'right', 'correct', or 'obligatory' is farcical in the extreme.   It creates tremendous suffering where none is necessary.

    Duty is simply an idea, a form, a notion, as is marriage and the expectations that become associated with marriage. 

    One can only conclude that there is no duty in marriage or any other relationship to comply with the expectations of others.  Imagine a world where there were no social expectations and you will see a world without duty, constraining relationships (i.e. marriage) or any obligatory social norms

  • Gypsyheart said on Feb 02, 2008....
    I've never thought of sex as a duty or a "marital right". I always thought of it as a more physical manafestation and demonstration of our love. Sex drives often differ, and lack of communication is often a problem. But those are problems that can be rectified with effort. No one has to stay in a sexless/loveless marriage, even for kids, and to do that hurts everyone involved.
  • silverwhisper said on Feb 02, 2008....
    skald: of course i agree. :>

    humanbeing: welcome to my blog and thank you for visiting! you make some very interesting points about societal expectations and their lack of relevance in a given, individual case. i want to think about them before responding at greater length.

    gypsyheart: i've seen you around here and there, welcome to my blog! i've always felt that the lower than ideal amount of sex is more often a function of just plain logistics (fatigue, not being in the same space at the same times), truth be told, more than a difference in libidos.

    ed
  • Eilan said on Feb 02, 2008....
    I don't understand why Carrie Jones feels that she has to sacrifice sexual thrills, as she puts it, in order to raise her children.  I've found that both are compatible--as long as you shut the door, keep the robes nearby, and teach the kids to knock when the door's closed. 

    She's using her children as an excuse, and I'm not buying it.
  • nytquill17 said on Feb 02, 2008....
    Ed: You're right, of course.  I had my facts a bit jumbled (been a while now since I was in school!)  The Greek thing is one of the oldest origins of the Western marriage/marriage ceremony.  Most of our North American traditions re: weddings come from the Romans, and they got their stuff from the Greeks.  But my point is the same: in pretty much every culture, marriage started as a way to make sure everyone knew "who's the daddy!"  And that's in part why we have come to place cultural value on fidelity and virginity, and moreso in women.

    Yeah, the fact that she actually likes him turns me off to her.  It's not that she can't stand him or that he treats her badly.  She'd just rather give up on sex than put in the effort it takes to maintain a good sex life in a long-term relationship.  It's not as if it would be any different in any other long-term relationship once she divorces this guy, either, so she might be in for a rude awakening!

    I understand how it happens, though.  You get in the habit of not having sex for one reason or another, maybe you even reach a place where you don't want it anymore, and then you're comfortable in your no-rutting rut.  The rest of your relationship is okay, you have a good lifestyle that you're happy with.  For some people, sex isn't worth blowing the top off of things.  And if everyone involved is truly okay with it...well, who am I to judge?  But I think for most people, after a while at least, it becomes a BIG problem - not for the sex itself, but for the affection and closeness and willingness to give that sex signifies.
  • lisamay said on Feb 02, 2008....
    i think i is a duty. or at least something that one should be willing to do whether one feels like it or not.
    things like feeding the dogs, cleaning the basement, washing dishes, laundry, vacuuming, changing the oil in the car ... al of these things are things that should be done.
    i dont mean to degrade sex, but ... you should consider your partners needs.
    if they need it, should you not provide it ?
    it is a duty in that sense to me anyways.


  • exhibit_c said on Feb 03, 2008....
    I think the public consensus is that marriage implies sexual relations. If a couple marry, and one party refuses to have sex, the other can seek an annulment. At least in the USA, barriers to divorce in the case of one party refusing to have sex are very low.


  • cotteralladams3 said on Feb 03, 2008....
    It is not HER fault but her responsibility. Besides, it takes two to make or break a marriage as a contractual engagement it requires both to agree and there is no social impetus to marry and have children these days. It has nothing to do with it being her fault just that she is not a victim. Go out and deal with it--it is the same for men. Same standards, no special treatment. Both are responsible.
  • PassionTraveler said on Feb 03, 2008....
    Feeding kids when they are young is a duty on the part of the parents. No one questions that it's abominable to not meet this duty. In fact, it's considered neglectful and illegal if that need isn't met. However, if the need of sex and intimacy isn't met in a marriage, things deteriorate. But in the end, there really is no repercussion other than the pain of ending the relationship. Ed, I performed my duty. He was happy. He didn't perform his. I left, but not before exploring what was wrong and what could be done to correct it. If he'd put more effort into the relationship, then we might still be together. Ergo, I think it is a duty if both are capable and willing. If not, then it doesn't need to be a marriage any more, or there better be some legitimate reasons for not performing that duty. PT
  • Lucytorial said on Feb 03, 2008....
    hmmm I find these descriptions rather anger based....

    Love, intimacy, relationships are based on how openly we can communicate with the other person, there is no duty in that, its called deep and profound respect, communication comes in all forms, if partners are not willing to communicate, grow and learn various ways of communicating then yes of course the relationship will peter out....

    I've been with my partner for almost 14 yrs now, the way we communicate even sexually has changed, it needs to but the communication is always there, regardless of the last time we made love, had a quicky, tired lazy sex in bed, a kiss and a cuddle etc it always comes down to that deep and profound respect we hold for each other, that entails communication which is not a duty but a joy. (Which includes ALL forms of sensuality and sex and intimacy)

    If more people in this day and age showed more respect for themselves and their partners i believe the divorce rate would lower substantialy, its far too easy to create and excuse rather than to communicate through a learning curve...

    If i got off track sorry!
  • desertsienna2 said on Feb 04, 2008....
    Hoff Sommers applies Paulo Freire's principle of transition to supremacy movements in successful political struggles to the mainstream feminist movement. She encapsulates this transition using the two terms "equity feminism" and "gender feminism." Hoff Sommers describes equity feminism as the struggle for equal legal and civil rights and many of the original goals of the first wave of the women's movement; while describing "gender feminism" as the action of accenting the differences of genders for the purposes of creating privilege for women in academia, government, industry, or advancing personal agendas. (This thesis is echoed by Tammy Bruce, former president of NOW, in her book The New Thought Police.)

    You can be 'special' with your claims of superiority and victimization.  Since power is about control, you can't be a victim in control.  It makes no sense.  But you can believe that you are a victim forever and voluntarily surrender control and then play roles with that..or you can be a real feminist who deals with life and pulls herself up by her bootstraps and deals with it.
  • silverwhisper said on Feb 04, 2008....
    eilan: yeah, i think it's a bit self-martyrizing, you know? she's pretty contemptible, if you ask me.

    nyt: heh...i figured that was a mistake of some kind...and yes, i agree that it could spiral into a much bigger issue.

    lisamay: OK, so if it's a duty, is there some method of enforcement? of a soldier fails to perform his or her duty, there are methods of punishing such a failure. ?

    exhibit c: you can cite lack of congress as a cause of action in a divorce? seriously?

    cotteralladams: ah, that meaning was not at all clear to me in your previous comment. thank you for the clarification.

    PT: well, i'd consider sex a means of measurement rather than an end in its own right. hm.

    tobi-lee: interestingly, i think part of the problem is that getting married is too easy. if it weren't so easy, would have fewer marriages ending in divorce, i suspect. and hey, who cares about off track? :> i don't think i ever realized until now that you and i view this rather similarly. :>

    desertsienna: i'm trying but failing to find even the most tangential measure of relevance in your comment to this discussion. was there one?

    ed
  • cotteralladams3 said on Feb 05, 2008....
    Equity vs. gender feminism, that is what she is referring to.  Take a look at it in context.  It is quite obvious that she means that these women are weak and playing up to that image instead of growing up and dealing with life.  Today is about the whole whiner-victim mode, a bunch of spoiled girls and Mama's boys complaining about life.
  • dyingman said on Apr 08, 2009....
    Take the poll.

    My post was very poorly phrased.
    Perhaps the duty is in seeking knowledge of what would make you interested?
    Perhaps it means finding porn you like.  Asking for something a little kinky that you're afraid of asking for.  Perhaps it means confronting an issue between you that's in teh way of intimacy/love. 

    Ignoring your spouse's starvation for intimacy is teh alternative to not accepting this challenge.


    The poll about taking drugs to match your spouse's libido?  Sure, take it.  I don't run polls on my blog.  I might even have an interesting answer.
  • silverwhisper said on Jun 23, 2009....
    cotterall: in which case she's exactly the raving lunatic she seems.

    dyingman: OK, that makes a good deal more sense!

    ed

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