silverwhisper's tags:
so as i mentioned the other day, i was thinking about a blog entry about plato. i didn’t really mean a blog entry about plato, so much as one of his best-known ideas: the forms.

if i may…

the wikipedia article quoth:
these forms are the essences of various objects: they are that without which a thing would not be the kind of thing it is. for example, there are countless tables in the world but the form of tableness is at the core; it is the essence of all of them…[snip]…a form is an objective “blueprint” of perfection. the forms are perfect themselves because they are unchanging. for example, say we have a triangle drawn on a blackboard. a triangle is a polygon with 3 sides. the triangle as it is on the blackboard is far from perfect. however, it is only the intelligibility of the form "triangle" that allows us to know the drawing on the chalkboard is a triangle, and the form "triangle" is perfect and unchanging. it is exactly the same whenever anyone chooses to consider it; however, the time is that of the observer and not of the triangle.

ever since i first encountered the theory of forms and what they are, i’ve been fascinated by them. this notion of a perfect, ideal concept to express the very nature of a thing upon which all other versions of the things are shadows is very appealing to me on a very visceral level. after all, this thinking is (i believe) the basis of the expression “platonic friend”—an expression we use to describe someone with whom we are close, but with whom no romantic aspect forms a part of that relationship.

this idea of a platonic form is simple, perhaps even elementary to some—after all, the idea’s been around since the 300s BCE, and is deeply integrated into our thinking, as evidenced by the expression “platonic friend”, to which i referred earlier, or as a basic and fundamental aspect of a series of fantasy novels by celebrated author roger zelazny (amber is the platonic form of all worlds, but knowable). and while certainly there are certainly criticisms of the concept of the forms—even by plato himself!—i don’t think it’s accurate in the least to say that the notion of the forms is not useful.

it serves, at least to me, the critical role of observing that perspective makes communication difficult. were i to say to you “blue”, you might well think of the color. yet there’s no way that either of us can ever be sure that we mean the same color, barring referring to a specific example (e.g., sky blue, the sky right now, sapphire, etc.). and if such examples are absent, then what? as my wife is fond of saying, “how do i know that the color blue that i see is the same as the color blue you see?” it’s all about the subjectivity of our perceptions.

there’s been a lot said about the forms through the history of western though, forming the basis of it as he does along with aristotle, his student, and socrates, his mentor. philosophers through the centuries have defended or criticized this idea.

but i wonder if this wasn’t really what he was trying to accomplish. he established the notion that the forms are ultimately unknowable, that all we can perceive or perhaps even imagine is still merely a shadow of the true form.

i view good communication as a constant striving towards eliminating that same subjectivity. so perhaps communication itself possesses a platonic form? it’s an ideal after all that, short of telepathy, cannot be realized: it’s unknowable, as plato suggested, and similarly exists as a concept that we can recognize when we witness a version of it.

now, under the notion of the forms one wonders how specific this can be: for example, we sometimes speak of “our true selves”. this begs the question, then: do platonic forms of individuals exist? it’s something i’ve been wondering, i now realize, on and off for some years now.

when you know a person—truly know him or her—you recognize when that person behaves in a way that is inconsistent with that understanding. if my wife were to start ranting about someone cutting her off in traffic, that would be exceedingly unusual: she’s normally more even-keeled than that. and we similarly recognize that we do understand that others know us that well, such as when someone makes a statement that’s obviously opposed to what is known about that person: it makes us laugh when done properly. that such an understanding exists then is a preexisting condition that must exist for those statements to be humor, right?

i’m fairly certain plato wouldn’t agree, but what i’m starting to think that maybe he went the wrong way with this notion. personally, i think that maybe people’s “true selves” are like platonic forms. why not? if a color (“blue”) or an object (“table”) can have a form, why not you or me?

just some random thoughts for this monday morning. :>



so do people have platonic forms, a perfect essence of them? can we truly ever know that ideal, or are we forever bound to hit the target but never hitting the bullseye, victims of the vagaries of communcation? or do i just really need to caffeinate? comment and let me know.

ed

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Comments

  • GracefullyGrowing said on Jan 28, 2008....
    Wow.  I read it, but I don't get it.  I guess I'm going to have to learn more about the theory of forms before I can. 
     
    I shall return.
     
    ~Grace~
     
  • GracefullyGrowing said on Jan 28, 2008....
    Ok.  My bad.  I should have read the Wiki page to be sure before I posted.  I'm the type to read directions *after* I start building the object - DUH.
     
    As usual, there's a lot here - philosophy is never a simple subject.  But let me start with two clarifying questions, please, Ed.
     
    1)  By platonic forms of individuals, would we be on the same page - or at least in the same book - if we think of those forms as what we normally label as "the soul"? 
     
    2)  Are you thinking, perhaps, of a type of "mind meld" when you speak of eliminating subjectivity?
     
    ~Grace~
  • beyondtheveil said on Jan 28, 2008....
    Ed- I have such difficulty accepting unknowable forms as essence in the first place, its equally difficult for me to comment. To me, the only reality a person can experience and know its real is change.

    I don't know what a "true self" is, much less be pinpointed. And the perfect essence of a self can only lie in the realm of religion. When you "truly know" a person, you are working only with the probability of that person's thoughts and actions which are constantly subject to a myriad of possibilities for change.

    I don't believe I'm following your thoughts concerning forms existing concerning people, though. However, let me say in answer to one of your questions that I"m not at all sure if "that ideal" was standing in front of anyone, they would know it.

    Tell me where I'm off on your questions.
  • the_infernal_optimist said on Jan 28, 2008....
    You know, if someone had asked me straight up, without any preamble whatsoever, "Do persons have platonic forms?" I probably would have just laughed.

    But...really, why not? I find nothing inconsistent with that notion and my own thoughts. I had a longer comment, but realized it was mostly just thinking out loud, and that we don't disagree.

    ~Infernal
  • CreativeWoman said on Jan 28, 2008....
    I have to admit that this theory is a bit over my head.  I'll look forward to learning from the discussion.  :-)

    CW
  • bluegum said on Jan 28, 2008....
    might in some relationships platonic forms be the problem might a relationship that sours quickly be to a too difference of platonic form...perhaps if two forms mesh only a little its a poor one and will fail , and two different form mesh a lot better it will be a stronger one and so on ....can this be the reason you meet someone and take a liking or disliking  we measure forms by our own forms
    could our so called sixtsense be one of our higher forms...... am i in a wire netting boat ???
  • silverwhisper said on Jan 28, 2008....
    [sneaks in to give eyes a break from staring at databases]

    grace: i suppose one could conceive of it as being like a soul, sorta, but using that word implies a supernatural/religious aspect that i think overshadows the meaning here. and maybe not a "mind meld" in the vulcan sense, but perhaps more of a way to share the exact thought w/out the words getting in the way. you know how sometimes w/ people you know well, a look can say everything? like that, but all the time.

    beyond: i'm not sure i really can, as i think it's my turn to be confused too--and i've spent all day in that state, to be honest. there are invariably times that we do something and it catches us by surprise. we have acted in a way that is inconsistent w/ who we believe we are in some fashion. i'm talking about penetrating beneath that level, into the very heart of what makes a person him or her self. conceiving of this in religious or spiritual terms is very much a separate thing, from which i want to stay distinct here.

    infernal: see, i figured that you would probably understand in some measure, but i guess i haven't explained myself very well. in general, i think that we must.

    CW: o, i doubt that it's actually over your head, to be honest. :>

    bluegum: um...i'm not at all sure i understand what you're saying. ?

    ed
  • Carefully said on Jan 28, 2008....
    All I can say was that it was an interesting read. I think I will have to digest it awhile before I fully understand it.
  • silverwhisper said on Jan 28, 2008....
    dear god, did i write the finnegan's wake of blog entries?! sorry about that, carefully!

    ed
  • the_infernal_optimist said on Jan 28, 2008....
    ed: I think you did explain yourself well. It's just not something I'd given a lot of thought to before you said that, you know?

    Encore, encore! :-D

    ~Infernal
  • madstorm said on Jan 29, 2008....

    Question: Is there in reality such a thing as Blue? ... Blue is a spectrum of infinite variety. Blue can change through it's spectrum and become what we perceive is an entirely different colour ie. Yellow or Green. The word 'Blue' is a generalisation formed by the human minds desire to communicate it's sensory input. 'Blue' is indefinable and the word cannot convey it's form. The word 'Blue' is it's subjective form and the word 'Colour' is it's objective form.

    When we say we "truly know" someone, all we actually 'know' is the memory of their past. Just as Blue can change through it's spectrum so can people. Memory is never who they 'are', it is only who they 'were'. Memory denies the possibility of change. Memory is a subjective form and the present, the 'now' is their objective form. That is why we are surprised (and hurt) when someone is not what we thought they were.

    The "True Self" is a spectrum of infinite variety, subjectively we are a name and the memory of experience, objectively we are humans capable of the entire variety of the spectrum.

    Therefore we can never "truly know" anyone.

     

  • silverwhisper said on Jan 29, 2008....
    thank you, infernal. i wasn't sure!

    madstorm: good to see you again! hm...well, i wouldn't say that blue is on a spectrum of infinite variety but certainly tremendous variety: the color wheel dictates that it's one of three primary colors from which all other colors can be formed, after all, so i only agree in part. and b/c i don't see that as an infinite range, i similarly don't see people as having that kind of infinite range, and accordingly this forces me to disagree w/ your contention that people are ultimately unknowable. of course, your reading does tie this idea even more closely to the forms as described by plato.

    thank you, that was most interesting. :>

    ed
  • GracefullyGrowing said on Jan 29, 2008....
    Ed - I hear you.  At this point the terms used in religious circles are the only ones I have to try to convey what's in my head. =)
     
    Let me ask you, please . . .  you don't think these forms are of a supernatual nature?  If that's an accurate statement - what nature are these forms, in your thoughts?
     
    ~Grace~
  • madstorm said on Jan 29, 2008....

    I've been here sneaking around in the background all the time silverwhisper...

    Computers demonstrate that colour is infinite. Scan a photo at low resolution and it divides 'Blue' into a given number of variations but scan the same photo at a high resolution and 'Blue' will be divided into even more variations. At pixel level on higher and higher resolution, areas that looked 'Blue' before begin to show they have pixels that are closer to red or green. The scan is limited by the numerical limitation of the scanner not the variety of 'Blue' itself... the process can in fact go on infinitely... the principle applies to Physics... they looked closer and closer at matter and realised that the result of observation is limited by the observer. In the end we will realise there is no point in looking.

    The word 'Blue' is limited. We can add more words like 'Light Blue' Dark Blue' but that is not sufficient to truely describe 'Blue'. Therefore words are limited.

    The same applies to people... we use words to describe people... eg 'good', 'bad', 'kind', 'asshole' ... when in reality any person can be any of these at any given time... being 'good' once doesn't make someone 'good' ... neither does being 'bad' mean they remain 'bad' ... let's face, we are all assholes sometimes!!

    So words only describe what someone 'was' and not what they 'are' ... a description denies the possibility they may change... and consequently, we never really 'know' another person...

    Life and relationship are a direct experience and cannot be described.

  • beyondtheveil said on Jan 29, 2008....
    I'm really following madstorm's line of thought in their second comment. I'm waiting to hear what you have to say to that. 
  • silverwhisper said on Jan 29, 2008....
    grace: correct, i don't conceive of the forms as spiritual/supernatural things but rather some kind of...well, for lack of a better term, dream. they may well exist but their existence is neither provable nor knowable, as plato described them and i can't really step too far away from how they were defined, b/c otherwise i'm no longer talking about the same thing, you know?

    madstorm: i didn't know that--i'm glad you've been around, then. it's good to see you commenting. :>

    as to whether or not words are limited: as a writer, i've spent a long time coaxing words into the shapes i need to achieve my objectives. if i say to you "her eyes were the color of the sky during a midsummer squall", either that will or won't be a meaningful description, based upon your experiences w/ summer squalls, no?

    so while i agree that life & relationships are direct experiences and there's no substitute for them, i'm not at all sure that translates into descriptions being worthless, which it seems to me you're suggesting. did i understand you correctly?

    ed
  • madstorm said on Jan 30, 2008....

    Descriptions are not worthless... on the contrary, language has immense beauty. It's just that we tend to fix descriptions as fact. Just as the colour of the sky can and will change then so does the description. This constant change means a description can never be a fact. A description can only ever be what it 'was' not what it 'is'. A lot of sorrow and pain is caused in human relationships simply because we have built a memory of a persons past behaviour and attributed the description as fact, in so doing we deny the possibility of change and are hurt when someone does change. If we build a memory of ourselves and attribute the description as fact we do not really know ourselves either.

    This appears to be philosophically deep but it is really very simple...

  • silverwhisper said on Jan 31, 2008....
    ah, so your comment is really about the nature of knowing a thing! OK, i understand you now. i'm not sure i would characterize our understanding of a person as a description, though: that choice of words seems to my eyes to seek to distance us from knowing others, which i think is contrary to most people's nature.

    that raises to me an interesting question though: are we each more than the sum of our experiences: our actions, behaviors, thoughts?

    ed
  • madstorm said on Jan 31, 2008....

    Yes, "knowing a thing"... exactly. A description is the putting into words the knowledge of someone or something. Knowledge is memory, Memory is experience, Experience is always the past except where experience is direct and in the present. At that point someone or something can and will change therefore knowledge is never complete... it doesn't mean we "distance(ourselves) from knowing others" ... it means we can never say we 'know' someone or something...

    And yes... we are "each more than the sum of our experiences: our actions, behaviors, thoughts"

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