• silverwhisper said on Aug 03, 2006....

  favored: caveat: i am [i]not[/i]a christian: i'm an agnostic. for a christian, there's a whole slew of things they aren't supposed to do. given how infrequently the bible speaks of homosexuality relative to other things like greed or gluttony, i'd be more worried if she were greedy and/or covetous. does she practice the golden rule? does she tithe 10% is she active in the church? aren't those things that glorify god more meaningfully than with whom she finds love? ed

• favored said on Aug 03, 2006....

  She thinks you have a point. If you're active in the church and believe that you should worship. She believes it shouldnt be such a huge sin with whom you fall in love with.

• FunctionalForm said on Aug 03, 2006....

  I completely agree that it doesn't matter whom you love; what matters is that you LOVE. If God is love, why wouldn't he want people to love each other in any way they can express it? If her heart is telling her that she should be with a woman, then she should be with a woman. I think it is a grievous sin to turn your back on yourself and to try to be something you're not in order to conform to a set of rules that may be based on a misinterpretation of a text, or a text into which the writer injected his own personal or cultural bias. If you believe that God created you, then why question his taste? Please believe that God created you exactly the way he wanted to, and that you are perfect the way you are. :)

• silverwhisper said on Aug 03, 2006....

  favored: if your friend's lesbianism becomes known, she will likely have a [i]lot[/i] of trouble in the church unless your church is more progressive than most. has she spoken to your minister/reverend? ed

• GrapeKoolaid said on Aug 03, 2006....

  I posted this another thread somewhere. It was an email that I got from a friend of mine. I thought it was pretty humorous, but hopefully you may find some mental armaments in here as well. 10 Reasons Why Gay Marriage is Wrong 1. Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning. 2. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall. 3. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract. 4. Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal. 5. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Britany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed. 6. Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children. 7. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children. 8. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America. 9. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children. 10. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans. --author unknown-- Enjoy, Grape.

• ALIENated said on Aug 03, 2006....

  IMHO, if you are truly a Christian, which means being filled with the Holy Spirit, and you still prefer gay relationships, then one of two things is true (sorry, I am a mathematician): either you are not filled with the Holy Spirit and, consequently, you are not a Christian, OR you are filled with the Holy Spirit and He is not directing you in a different direction. So go for it. I personally think that God tells us things to protect us from harm. Many of the directives in the Old Testament were aimed at wandering Jews who needed some culinary guidelines and that sort of thing. The New Testament also tries to point us in the right direction. I think if you are gay and you get with multiple partners every night, you are going to get in trouble--like getting a STD. You are not going to hell for that, you are just going to get sick, possibly terminally ill. Grape's ten reasons comically point out some of the concerns that the general public has about gay marriage. I always think it is funny to hear someone that has been married and divorced several times comdemning someone for being gay. My only opinion is that I do not want to see two guys making out in public. It is just gross. But, then again, I do not want to see anyone making out in public usually. And, the bottom line, gay marriage is simply a legal issue. It will probably never be legal because this is a democracy and the votes against far exceed the votes for because hetros far outnumber gays and their symphatizers. To me it is similar to defining a minor. Minors are defined, by law, to be someone under the age of 18 years. There is nothing magical or spiritual about 18 years. It is just what we, as a democracy, have agreed upon. One man and one woman is what we currently agree on for marriage.

• favored said on Aug 03, 2006....

  My friend just wants to confirm that she is not gay or lesbian. She was curious and thanks you all for the feedback. She prefers not to be referred to as gay today, tomorrow or any day. She wants to reassure eveyrone again, she is not gay. She was just wondering why so many people have problems with it. She thinks thats it!

• silverwhisper said on Aug 03, 2006....

  favored: um...OK. alienated: funny, the polls i've seen suggest there's a more or less even split, allowing for the margin of error one normally sees. i'd welcome a link to such a poll if you have one. ed

• FunctionalForm said on Aug 03, 2006....

  I firmly believe that gay marriage is a civil rights issue. It doesn't matter what we've previously agreed upon in our society - it's not right to deny any particular group of people the same rights as others. This country didn't used to allow women to vote, but that changed, even though women couldn't vote in favor of the change. :) I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter how many gay people or gay-sympathetic people are out there - it will change when people are ready to accept each other for who they are, and when they're ready to admit that everyone is worthy of the same basic rights. Alien - regarding your "two guys making out in public" comment, why is seeing two men making out any more offensive than two women or a man and a woman? I can understand not particularly wanting to see ANYONE heavily making out in public, but on the other hand, expressing affection shouldn't be something that disgusts us, as it's something we all need and want.

• GrapeKoolaid said on Aug 03, 2006....

  I think this is an issue that should be relegated to the states. It shouldn't be in the interests of the Federal Government how the citizenry spend their time and with whom. What people choose to do in the privacy of their own home is not a matter for the government to decide. This still is the land of the free, the last time I checked(kinda). I've heard all that,"God made Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve, or It ain't na'atral, or God hates that sh*t" arguements. Well, if you don't like it, go somewhere you do. There are plenty of places in this country where that's frowned upon. I think it's important for the people living in the "Land of the Free" to truly do what they want. Regardless of it's something you believe in or not. You shouldn't restrict other people's freedom just because of your own hang ups.

• ALIENated said on Aug 03, 2006....

  SW: I was not quoting a survey or statistics. I was basing my statement on the fact that only five percent or so of the population is gay and then there are people that are not gay who sympathize with the cause. You may be right on it being a pretty close split. It seems to get nowhere in the congress and they probably know what their people want. FF: The making out in public, I just personally find it repulsive, which is my right. I find it hard to watch someone throwup or whack their hand off with a meat cleaver. It really is not something I can control. I just find it repulsive. And, as I said, I think heavy making out in public is right up there with spitting in someone's eye. Get a room is all I am saying. GK: I really think it has to be a national call. Otherwise, gays could get married in one state (like the trip to Vegas) and demand it be recognized in their home state. Lots of complications there I would assume. This is all just my opinion. I make no claiims of being an expert and really could care less either way. As I said, I do not believe it has anymore to do with your eternal fate than lots of other sins like divorce, glutony, lying, on and on.

• silverwhisper said on Aug 03, 2006....

  alienated: fair enough. :> ed

• favored said on Aug 03, 2006....

  I think the 11 year old girl in my office who saw my blog screen posted a fairly decent blog here. Why she chose this topic? She read some of your others. Shes gone home now but Im certain she will ask me what you guys wrote. She inquisitive like that.

• ALIENated said on Aug 03, 2006....

  Eleven year old girl in your office? What kind of office are you in? Or was it the bosses daughter? If so, you may be in deep poodoo.

• ALIENated said on Aug 03, 2006....

  Eleven year old girl in your office? What kind of office are you in? Or was it the bosses daughter? If so, you may be in deep poodoo.

• ALIENated said on Aug 03, 2006....

  Sorry, I have the hicups.

• thenack said on Aug 04, 2006....

  I am a Christian and I do believe being gay is not natural, but its no more wrong than having sex out of wedlock, or cheeting on you spouse. Gay marraige would however imply that you will be continiously partacking in this, therefore there is no repentance etc. Personally I don't think there are many people who are really "homosexual" 99.99% of cases I promise you that person would be able to have a heterosexual relationship and be very happy, if they were happy with themselves and their relationship with God. The problem is that the world is marred by our sins and this complicates matters. Sexual issues are difficult and this is just one of them. People have to deal with them constantly and feeling gay is just one of them. We have to learn to put erotic love below godly love on our piority scale. Yes I can find a man attractive, what happens after that is in my head, the connection to sex is put there by me. Just as would be the case if I looked at a sexy whomen. If I immedaitely think " I want to have sex with that" I am doing the same thing, replacing the person with an object of my lust. I could think, hey shes pretty, and stop the train of thought right there, I do this cause I love my wife and I trust God that loving her is what will truly make me happy, not some experience thats over in a couple of hours these are my thought, hope they help TN

• lidstrom82 said on Aug 04, 2006....

  In the Bible, cities were burned to the ground in part because of wickedness that involved homosexuality. It is mentioned a few more times in the Bible as something that will divide you from God. IF there is a God (I believe there is), and we can know Him, that automatically becomes the single most important relationship in your life. You can receive great things from the Creator of the universe that you can't from your spouse, a lover, a friend, family, etc. Having that kind of power in your life makes a huge difference from a life that isn't aware or accepting of that power. It's like a beekeeper working on a beehive without a suit on - they'll get stung, and they'll probably live through it, but without the intended protection. So a relationship with God is more important than relationships with any other person on Earth, on the basis that another human being cannot offer what God can. However, if a person decides that loving another is more important than obeying God's words in the Bible, then it effectively drives a wedge in the relationship with God. Do you follow so far? Choosing another person over God is a huge conflict of interest, because you're still following God but disobeying His command. How about this: incest is wrong, correct? Your father teaches you this at a young age, and yet you like to "explore" with kissing. IF your sibling or cousin did also, and your father discovered it, your father would still love you but would disapprove of your rebellion. If you continued kissing your cousin for fun, dad would still be your dad, but the relationship is thrown out of whack because of the choice you made. It's largely the same with God the Father. He knows what's best for us, and when we go against it, our relationship with Him is strained. It's like rejecting His warning to be free and do what we want, but we must understand in the long run we're hurting ourselves. Homosexuality - I don't know it's cause, I don't know the conditions of it, but if God disapproves, I can conclude there's something harmful to us about it, even though I don't have any personal experience with it. A therapist treating a schizophrenic does not need to be a schizophrenic themselves to understand the condition. In the same way, taking God's word for it (literally) can give us understanding of a sin without committing it. In the end, according to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin because it's harmful to us and to others we share it with. It is no better or worse of a sin than a person who's married and divorced three times because they can't/won't deal with their emotional baggage or rigidness, or someone who sleeps around all the time. Too many resent God for telling them what to do, without realizing that it's being said to protect and to help them, not to control their lives. There is a big difference, and it is one many do not understand.

• silverwhisper said on Aug 04, 2006....

  [quote][b]nack[/b] quoth i don't think there are many people who are really "homosexual" 99.99% of cases i promise you that person would be able to have a heterosexual relationship and be very happy, if they were happy with themselves and their relationship with god.[/quote] that, of course, is total and utter ignorance. ed

• thenack said on Aug 04, 2006....

  Well please enlighten me, all I meant to say was I believe many gay peeple do not need to be gay, they choose to be or are influenced to be. They are not, how can I put it, gay since birth. If you still think that is ignorant, please supply a reason, or is your opinion that I am ignorant?

• diosa101 said on Aug 04, 2006....

  im a gay and also a christian... umm... for me...theres no limit or controlation of who you are and i do believe that God made us as a unique individualbut for me,,,, if i go to church i wouldn't change my looks,,, or somethn,,, cuz this is me... and this is the real me... anywayz... being you is just normal it only takes respect on yourself and everyone whos in your soroundings....

• silverwhisper said on Aug 04, 2006....

  nack, instead of dragging favored's thread off-topic, i'll create a post on my own blog later today. ed

• 00purple666 said on Aug 04, 2006....

  You can't help who you fall in Love with, not being overly religious but isn't love good no matter what? also if no one sinned then wouldn't jesus have died for nothing? Live and let live I say

• timmydelatorre said on Aug 04, 2006....

  Wow - I havent posted in one long minute. but as a gay puerto rican male living the city of NY, you just have to know I'm going to respond to this one! I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. For me, that's all they are whether for or against gay relationships. To be honest, it will never change the way I feel about myself. thenack - I do appreciate your thoughts as well. But here's a little more enlightenment. I do love the lord, and I most certainly do love MYSELF! There is no doubt about that - so don't ever get that twisted. I love me, my family & friends love me, and I know for a fact the lord loves me - just for who I am. I do believe however I was not born this way, but no one has influenced me either!!!! I believe we are all born blank canvas's, and we aquire different colors to paint with as we get older. Some people are just blessed with more color at an early age! They under- stand themselves before people even know what understandthing themselves really means. But there's a whome other issue here, and its not about being gay or straight. Its about beliefs and making your beliefs to be the right one to go by. There's muslims, there's Christians, there's buddhists, etc. As a Puerto Rican, I can trace back my culture to the Taino Indians who were not people of RELIGION!!! Way before Catholicism was spread throught our little country by the Europeans/Spaniards and killed of our tribes! They were free spirits, believing everything and everyone had a purpose in life. Actually gay male/females were considered in great respect that they could relate with more than one sex. But when it comes to being natural/unnatural, relationships between human beings is always a natural thing whether male or female! We were all created as humans first, before we were labeled with what religion we were apart of. Thats more uunnatural if you ask me. Religion is more about choosing and being influenced to be apart of, not loving another human being!!!!!!

• favored said on Aug 04, 2006....

  Alien, the child is a colleague's daughter. School starts in a few days and she was loafing around our building. Her mom punished her from the internet so she wanted some input. She asked to post :) My comments on homosexuality cannot be changed. I have a closed mind about it and base my decisions on what I beleive to be true. I will say its the first time I've heard a gay person say 'I do believe however I was not born this way'. I knew some gay people. One lived next door to me, two others were former in-law relatives. All three of them died with aids.

• yourjulzrmine said on Sep 06, 2006....

  How do you feel about a 16 year old who is wondering if he is gay or not? He doesn't have any immediate influences that I am aware of and he has never been intimate with anyone...male or female. We want to support him or help him figure things out, but this is probably something he has to do on his own? No?
  

• barbiedollreject said on Sep 11, 2006....

  The purpose of a marriage is a commitment between two people. I suppose it is a human rights issue, but that doesn't make it natural in that it is the same thing as normal, healthy behaviour. Maybe a deformed foot is natural, but you fix it because it is desirable to do so.
  
  Nobody has a right to hate or discriminate against gays and lesbians but the number that penetrate into mainstream society is highly overrated. The statistic is between 1 and 4 percent. When activists insist that the number is much higher, they are taking into account people who simply experiment or have a gay relationship, which doesn't reflect anyone's general sexuality or life pattern.
  
  Most gays are unhappy and self-destructive. You can put a couple on Oprah, but television is not reality. I am not saying they are trying to be bad people because it's not an issue of sin. It used to be listed as pathological behavior and a mental illness. Most psychiatrists up to the end of the sixties, when the sexual revolution took place, dismissed it as unnatural.
  
  There is some evidence of it being a genetic defect or a result of drug use and hormonal therapy or exposure to the wrong chemicals in the womb. Some say that it is a lack of development beyond adolescent sexual tendencies. Most gays act immaturely and are troubled with insecurity, depression, suicidal tendencies, fear of people, a lust for street life and hooking, etc. So I worry about them. I figure some will get married but because their tendencies aren't towards monogamy and intimacy, it won't last. If gay relationships worked, they wouldn't have wild affairs, then sleep around, then be abstinent, then go back to a lover for three weeks, then leave, etc.
  

• silverwhisper said on Sep 12, 2006....

  barbiedollreject: did you just liken homosexuality to a disease? that's contemptible. and your ignorance re: gays is quite mind boggling. i honestly have to wonder whether you aren't an alternate for someone else.
  
  ed
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 12, 2006....

  Silver, are you ok? It seems like you've had a short fuse for at least a week or so, and it's come out in different ways on different posts, particularly when it comes to people with differing opinions than you.
  
  I don't think barbiedoll said it was a disease, but that is HAS been seen as such before. It was seen as unnatural until the 60's, and there has been evidence of chemical or genetic whoseewhatsis, but even though some of barbiedoll's comments might try to label homosexuals into an unrealistic demographic does not mean her position is: "being gay is a disease."
  
  It also doesn't mean she's really a regular poster who is "undercover". You asked if I was really somone else posting on a separate matter, and whether you're wondering if we're genuine, or if you're just saying that to point out how outrageous we sound, it just seems you're less tolerant with some opinions lately. You alright, dude? We don't mean to offend you or to deliberately irritate you, but if something's been bothering you chances are other opinions will irritate you even if the person is just stating their opinion.
  

• silverwhisper said on Sep 13, 2006....

  lidstorm, she said "maybe a deformed foot is natural, but you fix it because it is desirable to do so."
  
  that view, quite simply, is contemptible. that's what's bothering me. i've spent a long time being nice about it but i encounter the same pig ignorance and i'm tired of being nice about it.
  
  i believe that barbiedollreject honestly doesn't understand the ramifications of what they're saying. i believe that b/c for me, that's vastly more charitable than the alternative.
  
  re: alternate IDs, it's just that i've encountered the very same idea elsewhere on the same subject at around the same time.
  
  ed
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 13, 2006....

  I understand, silver. I can relate to having a vastly different opinion than other posters, and wondering how in the world they justify their views.
  
  But I've also learned the value of compassion is much more effective than labeling them or assuming they don't know what they're saying. barbiedollreject said some blunt things, but there may yet be truth to them. I urge you to regain patience for the fact that "pig ignorance" to you may yet have as much value as your position, blunt as it may have been. I am NOT saying so and so is right, that homosexuality is a disease. Personally, I believe sin is a disease, and homosexuality is a byproduct of it, as is gluttony, greed, and others, but especially pride. I mention pride because it's what makes us want to be right all the time, and sometimes it rears its ugly head when we're so convinced we're right that we'll lose patience with others. The problem with that is, what if we can learn something valuable from those other people? If we lose patience and get pissed at them, we miss out.
  
  That all goes to say that as tiring as it is to be nice at times, I encourage you to strive for it...after all, peeps have been nice to both of us even though stuff we said drove them up a wall.
  

• silverwhisper said on Sep 13, 2006....

  lidstrom: perhaps nice would be more productive. however, it's also important to recognize that sometimes, ignorance is simply a state that shouldn't be tolerated. an informed opinion i can respect. however, i'm just not seeing that.
  
  you and i will always disagree about the nature of homosexuality. i find the idea that pride is a key component of gayness a weird one--unless you're saying that pride is a key component to all sin?
  
  ed
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 13, 2006....

  Yeah, I'm saying that pride is at times the most dangerous sin, esp. because it can play a part in all the other sins.
  
  Ignorance is tough to handle; I'm merely saying that "being nice", or rather patient, is the best way to inform someone. That doesn't mean sugarcoating: at times I've said things to help someone that was mistaken for hate or judgment. A person is more open to change if you point out the flaws in their logic, while ALSO expressing respect for them as a human being.
  
  There are some major hot-button issues that divide people (this topic is one of them). When two people can express widely different issues, they can do so more freely with the foreknowledge that no matter what, they have the respect of the other person...even better if they know the other person is genuinely concerned about the other's well-being.
  

• silverwhisper said on Sep 14, 2006....

  ah, lidstrom...you're right, of course. thanks for your gentle rebuke. :>
  
  ed
  

• lidstrom82 said on Sep 14, 2006....

  One thing I appreciate a ton about you, silver, is that you listen and take others' words to heart. I think most of us will read others' words and go on with our lives, and gloss over any lesson or wisdom we could have learned from another. You rock for not doing that.
  

• barbiedollreject said on Sep 15, 2006....

  Less than 1 percent of the population is gay or bisexual. Several articles I have read confirmed that most gays do not want to marry, do not want children and that they prefer to live together. They do not support the leftist agenda of certain politically-correct extremists who think that a flood of gays will marry under approved same-sex marriage legislation.
  
  We live in a time when the media has enormous power and creates causes or scandals out of nothing because it is a form of entertainment to make money from. Britney Spears is one example, Mel Gibson another, Iran, etc. Ebola, SARS, West Nile virus, Mad Cow disease, need I name more? AIDS gets ignored, sadly and it is a real issue affecting close to 38 millions people. Nevertheless, after same-sex marriage was legalized eighteen months ago, less than 5,000 gay marriage ceremonies have been performed. In a country of 32 million, at least 320,000 people would have been gay. Estimates of up to 23 percent have been perpetuated but that is not our reality. The vast majority of the population is heterosexual. They are not better, but that is reality.
  
  Politically-correct extremists assert that gays want to marry, but the number of monogamous relationships that they have is substantially lower than straights and they often switch back and forth. Also, most do not desire to have children and do not cite marriage as important.
  
  Civil unions for serious gay couples, few that there are, is the middle ground in all of this. As a recent letter to the editor stated, "What if a girl putting up her child for adoption prefers to have the child raised in a straight home or single-parent home?" Also, why would anyone want to go to a sperm bank? What will you tell the kid? Will you cheat on your spouse by having sex to have a child? Will you get sperm donated or an egg? Surrogate motherhood? Why would anyone want to go down that route? It is not in the sphere of homosexuality to contemplate motherhood and marrying under the assumption you are straight when you are not isn't honest.
  

• silverwhisper said on Sep 15, 2006....

  barbiedoll: do you have a basis for that m not at all sure i understand your meaning.
  
  ed
  

• awiles17 said on Feb 12, 2007....

  Sorry, I just happen to stumble upon the blog by complete accident, but I believe that Homosexuality is wrong. God destroyed two cities Sodom and Gomorrah with fire because of the homosexuality in that city. God said it is an abomination to him, therefore, He does not okay with it. It is unnatural. I agree with whoever said that you're not born homosexual. It's a choice to be homosexual or not. And I don't think the term gay should be used in this context. That's not what is means at all and I crenge when I hear someone say, "Oh, that's gay." Nothing is gay unless it's happy. So I don't use that term, use the correct word, homosexual. I've heard this said before. A woman was being asked a question by a bunch of news reporters, (I don't remember what for,) But this is a true story. She was asked the question; Do you think God will judge America? Her response to this question I think shocked a lot of people, if they were watching. She said, "If he doesn't He'd have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah." So I believe that God will change his mind about homosexuality. He's always hated it and always will. It's an ABOMINATION to him people, come on. God's not going to allow something that is an abomination to him into heaven. I just don't believe that. God ordained marriage to be between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN. Not two men or two women. It's not right, it's not natural, God's against it. That's all I can think of right now. If you wish to hear more from me about this feel free to email me at: alw122689@yahoo.com I'm not apologizing if I hurt anyone's feelings I just felt like saying what the Bible says and what God thinks about homosexuality.

  IN CHRIST,
  Adam Wiles

   

• silverwhisper said on Feb 13, 2007....

  no, adam, god destroyed sodom & gomorrah b/c the citizens wanted to rape the angels. learn what the bible actually says.
  
  ed

• ALIENated said on Feb 14, 2007....

  Partly true. Where do you think the term sodomy came from? That was 
  no accident. Of course, I have never heard of anyone being gomorrahized.
  That was probably too hard to say. And maybe the Gomorrah inhabitants
  were more into cuntilingus, or something.
  

• silverwhisper said on Feb 14, 2007....

  alienated, etymology's a funny thing. it isn't quite as cut & dried as you'd like to think. b/c if the crime of sodom & gomorrah were just about men having anal sex, there wouldn't be the threat of gang rape by the residents of sodom. even by leviticus there were 2 things going on here that were a problem, not one.
  
  ed

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