• beyondtheveil said on Jan 07, 2008....

  Well, to begin with, many countries don't care any more about women than you do a roach. I saw a documentary where they said there was an abortion clinic on every corner to get a sonogram and abort if it was a girl. That was India. China hates them too. It used to be that harbors were littered with corpses of infant girls floating in the water. We won't even talk about the middle east.
  
  I read not too long ago where a man threw gasoline on his bride and burned her alive because the dowry wasn't large enough and they didn't do a fucking thing to him.
  
  I love humanity.
  

• SeanRenaud said on Jan 07, 2008....

  Ok there are a lot of reasons for this but I'll start with just a few.
   
  1.  BtE pretty accurately covered the attitudes of much of the world towards women.
   
  2.  Until the 90's India was rather socialist.  The government controlled how much money individuals could make and it stunted their growth.  You'll note that since 91 (when they let greedy capitalist pig dogs run wild) they suddenly started coming up in the world.  They are currently the 2nd fastest growing economy.  And though I believe it to be bullshit, there are people claiming they will surpass us soon.
   
  3.  War, or rather the lack there of.  If you look at technology as a whole it tends to accelerate during times of war.  You need new medical advances to keep your soldiers alive, you need better weapons to kill the enemy faster, you need food storage, you need transporation, communication etc etc.  European History (and by proxy US history) has been defined by war for much of the last thousand years.  As a direct result technology in the west has developed at an accelerated rate in comparison to the rest of the world.  The rest as they say is history.
   
  On a side note technology is absolutely vital to women's equality (though the two don't by definition go hand in hand).  A woman simply is not "equal" to a man.  She's not as strong, and she gets pregnant.  This is no big deal to somebody who's job consists of sitting behind a desk and typing, but is a huge deal to a person who's line of work is physically demanding.  Being weaker is no big deal if you can pull a gun, but when how long you can keep swining your sword around, or worse how much damage you can deliver with your bare hands is an issue being smaller and weaker is a huge disadvantage.
   
  There is however a single job that women excel at in a physical world.  Sex. 
   
  I think India will correct itself though, money, technology and knowledge will spread through the nation and when they do they will in many ways be better off than we are.  Mostly because they will simply bulldoze the entire nation and build a new one.  Look at many Asian countries that had very little money until the later half of the 20th century.  They don't have 100 year old buildings like we do.  They have concrete castles.  There are advantages to being able to start from scratch instead of having to build ontop of and around the existing infrastructure.

• Eilan said on Jan 07, 2008....

  Girls are a financial liability.  Dowries were outlawed in India years ago, but the practice is still rampant, particularly among the middle class, and the authorities just tend to look the other way.
  
  I read somewhere where abortion and infanticide have been responsible for the deaths of as many as 60 million girls in Asia.  Boys outnumber girls to the point where making marriages will be problematic.
  
  Sub-saharan African isn't much better, what with AIDS running rampant and men raping babies because they think that sex with a virgin will cure them of HIV.
  

• Mamie said on Jan 07, 2008....

  I have no frickin clue!

• hinana said on Jan 08, 2008....

  I wouldnt call it a shithole.
  I've been to India several times, I have family there, i am Indian.
  My answer to your question is that a lot of teh places are set in their ways.
  They're used to living the way they do.
  And they can also be quite religious.
  If you add that together, theyres not much women can do.
  In a lot of places its still not appropriate for women to go out and socialize with men.
  And so a lot of the women there are stuck in old fashioned ways.
  You know, teh delicate, depends on a man to support her family etc.
  So if teh women are still stuck n this mindset, the men are just goign to go along with it arent they.
  The only ways a woman can really earn a living there is by sewing, maybe makeup artistry henna etc unless she has a good education.
  But then again, theyre usually married off by th time theyre 21, so then they only continue their education if their husband approves.
  But coming back to the main point. A LOT of India is still small villages.
  And its the small villages that arent modernised, are still poor, farming, etc.
  That and overpopulation I think is teh main problem.
  They need to change thier mindset is all.
  But thats the hardest part, tryign to convince them to change, and then actually gettign them to do it.

• lfbno7 said on Jan 08, 2008....

  OK, now we have some answers. I'll respond to them.
  
  In many countries, they care about women about as much as they do about a roach. I think that is a valid point. Look how they whip them and cover their heads in Arabia. So the focus then is on the poverty of women, not on the poverty of the entire country. And I think it is a valid point, considering the Ashley Judd documentary I watched. It was focused on women being forced into prostitution and then getting AIDS. It didn't show any poor men.
  
  Beyond and Sean both made that point.
  
  The point about India being socialist and controlling how much money could be made, and blaming the stunting of the Indian economy on that, is not to the point. It's just someone repeating his own philosophy, and does not answer for India. If India was in the least socialist it would provide a safety net for these little girls, orphaned, forced to support their families when they are only 14, not getting any welfare, not getting shit. The problem there is obviously too little socialism, not too much of it. The nation gives a cheery FUCK YOU DROP DEAD to all the little 14 year old orphan girls who are trying to keep their little siblings alive.
  
  War is terrific at developing medical science and war got the world out of the depression of the 1930s, but I don't think it's a good enough explanation for the crap that goes on in India. It could be a partial explanation, but India is a weird bird.
  
  Eilan also focuses on the nation's attitude toward women, and expands that attitude beyond Asia into Africa, and has a point.
  
  Hinana, I tend to be blunt. I think India needs its own Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Samuel Adams, George Washington. The government isn't even looking out for little orphan girls. How much more pathetic can you get? India's government isn't getting the job done, and it should be turned out of office and replaced by someone who will get the job done. By the ballot, by the gun, whatever, just help the little orphan girls out. Looks to me like India needs a revolution. Maybe the revolution is just in the mind, and India needs a mental revolution. I'd say that the word "shithole" was way too kind to describe it. Demonic hell would be a more accurate description. Some things are not supposed to be tolerated.
  
  A lot of places in India are set in their ways. They are quite religious. Women are not treated as equals. They are supposed to depend on men for support. They can only be educated if husband approves. Overpopulation. I think you have explained the problems the best. I just think you aren't angry enough. The right reaction to this situation is red hot fury.
  
  I think India is too tolerant of the intolerable. I think the people of India need to be picking up a hatchet and inserting it in somebody's head. It's not okay. There is a lion in the apartment and it's eating your kids. It's not okay. At a very minimum you need to take care of the orphans. You also need to force, and I mean force, people to change their attitudes about women. There are ways. Educate. Use the media. Drag these people, kicking and screaming, out of their demonic shithole of ignorance. It's horrible and it needs to be changed now. Of all the places on earth, and God knows that earth is a mess, India is one of the very worst. It doesn't need to be defended. It needs to be changed. Sweet people who tolerate too much shit.
  
  The old ways, in this case, can't be respected. They have to be destroyed. They have to be replaced with a sense of responsibility for the orphans. How do you force a 14 year old orphan girl to support her siblings? I don't get it. Was there ever a society that did that? There seems to be too much fatalism in India. Hey, some kid just fell in a river, oh well, I guess it is her karma to drown, what the fuck, I'm not going to help. Fuck her. It's insanity.
  
  It's funny that the rest of the world turns to India for spiritualism, like the gurus, when India is at the bottom of the heap spiritually. Put down the sitar and pick up a stick to hand to the drowning girl so she can hold on and get pulled back to shore. Or else use the stick to crack over the heads of the people who run things.
  
  If you think I'm being overly negative about India, singling it out unfairly, I don't think I am. I think India is at the bottom of the heap and it needs to pick itself up. It needs to get mad, and not at me, at itself.

• hinana said on Jan 09, 2008....

  Oh Ive gotten mad. Ive gotten into so many arguments wit my mom about the way things are run.

  Its not that shes ok with it. its more tat she doesnt believe theres anythign she can do to cange it.

  And my family, most of the generation before mine were born, and mostly raised there. They still have a lot of the way of thinking.

  A lot of emphasis in my family is about your familys respect and status.

  I hate that. Im completely against it. I cant stand the fact that my divorced dad put so much more effort into trying to get to know my brother and not me. I cant stand tat it was my dad that caused te divorce, and that my mom still pays for it to this day, and i mean by teh way that my family sees her.I cant stand that wether or not tey admit it, the guys opinions are valued more, tat they still old so many of te stupid traditions tat differentiate between teh men and women.

  And ive tried changign this. Ive yelled, ive argued, ive refused, ive rebelled but nothing changes in return. therye set in teir ways.

  And when i went to india, it still didnt work there. the mens role is clearly defined, and the womens role is clearly defined. they didnt care what i had to say about this. They were rigt were right were right.

  but theyre wrong. completely worng. and it does make me as angry as you say it should tat they dont REALIZE that, that they dont even TRY to see it in a diffrent way.

  And I realize that the only expectation my family (other then my mom) has on me is to get married to a 'nice indian muslim boy' and have kids. pretttyy much.

  So its not that Im not angry enough. Its that ive tried dealign with this with my anger, and it doesnt help.

   

• SeanRenaud said on Jan 09, 2008....

  China is socialist and they have similar problems with girls getting murdered.  Just because you rob the rich doesn't mean you give a shit about anybody, besides when there isn't any money being made it's hard to rob them.  Or wait are you going to tell me that China isn't socialist?  Or that China doesn't murder girls?
   
  I actualy meant to mention India's lack of war as one fo the reasons they have remained behind it technology.  I'd also like to add to that, that the country benefited from foriegn rule (as likely much of Africa would)
   
  There is no single reason why India is fucked, and no single reason why the US is so damned good, though we are rapidly losing ground in many areas.
   
  Honestly India, was and is changing.  As more money enters the system you'll see less and less abject poverty.  As more people become educated you'll see less of these kinds of problems.  It won't and can't happen overnight though, and it has to start from the inside.
   
  Now if you wanted to get India, or any other country to improve rapidly pick a country, any country that is better off than it, and let them conquer it.  Conquered nations get the benefit of new technology, new money and are forced to change many of their customs.
   
  Notice that when cultures that have various evil practices move to the US that shit don't happen no more.  Unfortunately a very good point lf pointed out is tolerance.  Much of the rest of the world is very tolerant of evil, look at Europe as a whole (England in particular) and how they are dealing with the influx of Muslims to their country.  If they continue on the path they are on England might become the very first country ever to be conquered by democracy.

• hinana said on Jan 09, 2008....

  i thought you migt be interested in this blog

  he seems to sare your view point, and i must admit, the point he makes, is quite true

• hinana said on Jan 09, 2008....

  sean - correct me if im wrong, but are you linking the term evil with muslim?
              if so, what makes you do that?

• SeanRenaud said on Jan 09, 2008....

  No, but I did phrase that poorly.  We know we have a lot or problems with radical Islam (Wahabism). 
   
  Not only that but traditional Islam has many short comings of it's own, a few years back a man who converted from Islam to Christianity was tried, and was going to be given the death penalty.  International pressure eventually had the man found not guilty.  By reason of INSANITY.
   
  http://netwmd.com/blog/2007/11/17/2088  How bout a woman lashed for being raped?
   
  Or being threatened with jail time for naming a teddy bear?  http://caller.com/news/2007/dec/03/teacher-punished-for-naming-a-teddy-bear/
   
  Or specific to my statement, honor killings.  And those aren't in Islamic nations.  That's Europe and there isn't an appropriate response from the police.
  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3828675.stm
   
  If I said or was percieved as saying that Islam is evil I didn't mean to imply that.  I am saying that there is a lot of bad things going on within the religion and that we shouldn't be tolerant of people who do those kinds of things.
   

• hinana said on Jan 09, 2008....

  I dont think its the religion at all thats a problem. I think its teh way people choose to understand and carry out the religion.
  The religion itself, like other eligions is one that does promote peace.
  Its teh people wo take it upon themselves to carry out teh religion in ways tey see fit.
  The religions fine, the extremists just need to wake up.

• hinana said on Jan 09, 2008....

  I dont think its the religion at all thats a problem. I think its teh way people choose to understand and carry out the religion.
  The religion itself, like other eligions is one that does promote peace.
  Its teh people wo take it upon themselves to carry out teh religion in ways tey see fit.
  The religions fine, the extremists just need to wake up.

• SeanRenaud said on Jan 09, 2008....

  See I think RELIGION is the problem.

• hinana said on Jan 09, 2008....

  But why? Why is it the religion thats the problem?

• SeanRenaud said on Jan 09, 2008....

  Not the religion.  Religion period.
   
  People who believe in ghosts, fairies, talking elephants or flying spaghetti monsters have a basic problem.  They believe in something that isn't real.  Then you start believing in silly rituals to please your random myth.  It might be don't eat pigs, it might be don't eat meat on Friday, or it might be murdering your daughters for getting raped. 
   
  The farther away from religion on gets the less silly things they do.

• hinana said on Jan 09, 2008....

  i guess you could look at it that way, but there are people who can follow religion without goign to such extremes. a lot of them actually. i just wish th eones who go too far could realize what they were doing.

• SeanRenaud said on Jan 09, 2008....

  Yeah, those people are people who don't really believe in their given religion.  They just claim to.  If you are a Jew and you eat bacon, you're not a Jew and you don't really believe your going to be punished for breaking the laws of your God.  If you believe in a God I can't see how you could break their laws and not expect to be punished.

• lfbno7 said on Jan 10, 2008....

  Hinana, I'm glad that you aren't also angry at the way I expressed my frustration about India. I just don't understand why a 14 year old girl is supporting her little sister and brother. The comments here immediately shifted to sexism, which wasn't my original intention, but I think people were right to take it in that direction.
  
  I have an extremely negative reaction to religion in general, even though many of the nicest people you meet are religious, even here on SC. I equate all religion with mythology. But it is a virulent form of mythology, because it is not just some dopy story about Zeus juggling his girlfriends. It is something that magnetizes people. I'll explain that.
  
  In a magnet, all of the particles are situated the same way, north one way, south the other, to the point where they all act as a unit, all identical. This kind of unity turns religion into a fist.
  
  Thus, we have the many wars in Europe between Catholics and Protestants. We have the earlier wars between Unitarians and Trinitarians, resulting in the massacre of the Unitarians and the establishment of the Trinity as the only truth. We have the wars between Hindus and Muslims. We have the current crap between Muslims and non-Muslims, infidels.
  
  And all these wars and murders are because of nonsense, because all of the religions are basically lies tied up in blue ribbons.
  
  I believe that humanity would be in a lot better shape today if there never was a religion, and that religion is an evil thing, a destructive thing, an unfortunate thing, and above all, a lie.
  
  And yet, many of my favorite people are religious. They forgive me for all my views. Who cares what I think anyway, right?
  
  I remember not too many years ago, a very religious woman down south was clashing with me on this subject, and the next thing I knew, she was in love with me and traveling to Joisy to have an affair with me and marry me. Go figger. (For non-New Yorkers, that means Go figure, or WTF or something like that.)

• SeanRenaud said on Jan 10, 2008....

  Wow, that was a good explanation on it.  Better than I've given in a while.  Go lfbno7.

• SeanRenaud said on Jan 10, 2008....

  Wow, that was a good explanation on it.  Better than I've given in a while.  Go lfbno7.

• SeanRenaud said on Jan 10, 2008....

  Wow, that was a good explanation on it.  Better than I've given in a while.  Go lfbno7.

• mbjesq said on Feb 19, 2008....

  I am the author of the blog post Hinana cited above, entitled <a href="Varanasi" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://memestreamblog.wordpress.com/2007/02/04/varanasi-shit-hole-of-the-gods/"><em>Varanasi: Shit-Hole of the Gods</em></a>.  I have also pissed a few people off by stating that <a href="http://memestreamblog.wordpress.com/2006/12/29/kolkata/">Kolkata is, quite unambiguously, a shit-hole</a>.

  However, Hinana should not be so quick to conclude that I share your point of view.  I spend half of each year working on <a href="http://memestreamblog.wordpress.com/category/environment/">urban watse issues in India</a>, and am the first to admit that India is up to its ass in garbage, thanks to wreckless consumption of single-use plastics and a national penchant for dropping trash wherever they happen to be standing at the time.  But that doesn't consign India to shit-hole status, at least as you define it.

  One thing I'll agree with your commentors on for sure: there is great <a href="irony" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://memestreamblog.wordpress.com/?s=spirituality">irony in the fact that the world looks to India for spiritual leadership</a>.  (The world is always a bit slow to catch on.)  lbno7 pegged it right when they said, "India is at the bottom of the heap spiritually."  Indeed, I've heard no less a spiritual authority than Deepak Chopra (KQED-FM, Forum interview, November 2007) say the same.

  When people ask me why I live in India, I give this answer: Because India is endlessly engaging.  The things that are wonderful about India are interesting, and the things that are fucked-up about India are downright fascinating.

  Give India another chance; and try not to look at it through the eyes of the place from which you've come.  Ironically, the thing that's ruining India is that the <a href="http://memestreamblog.wordpress.com/2007/10/12/india-going-nowhere-fast/">Indians themselves are doing just that</a>... but that's a topic for another day.

  Cheers,

  MBJ
  http://memestreamblog.wordpress.com

• mbjesq said on Feb 19, 2008....

  I am the author of the blog post Hinana cited above, entitled  Varanasi: Shit-Hole of the Gods.  I have also pissed a few people off by stating that Kolkata is, quite unambiguously, a shit-hole.

  However, Hinana should not be so quick to conclude that I share your point of view.  I spend half of each year working on urban watse issues in India, and am the first to admit that India is up to its ass in garbage, thanks to wreckless consumption of single-use plastics and a national penchant for dropping trash wherever they happen to be standing at the time.  But that doesn't consign India to shit-hole status, at least as you define it.

  One thing I'll agree with your commentors on for sure: there is great irony in the fact that the world looks to India for spiritual leadership.  (The world is always a bit slow to catch on.)  lbno7 pegged it right when they said, "India is at the bottom of the heap spiritually."  Indeed, I've heard no less a spiritual authority than Deepak Chopra (KQED-FM, Forum interview, November 2007) say the same.

  When people ask me why I live in India, I give this answer: Because India is endlessly engaging.  The things that are wonderful about India are interesting, and the things that are fucked-up about India are downright fascinating.

  Give India another chance; and try not to look at it through the eyes of the place from which you've come.  Ironically, the thing that's ruining India is that the Indians themselves are doing just that... but that's a topic for another day.

  Cheers,

  MBJ
  http://memestreamblog.wordpress.com

• anonymous said on Oct 11, 2008....

  Why was Europe such a shithole 500 years ago? If you find the answer to that question you will also have the answer to yours (at least in its fundamentals). Fotios

• lfbno7 said on Oct 11, 2008....

  I'm reading a book now called Messages From Michael by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro. One of the themes of this book is reincarnation, which I believe in very strongly. The book lists a lot of countries and discusses how "old" the souls are in those countries, with some of the neutral and staid countries like Switzerland having the oldest souls on average. The country mentioned as having the youngest souls, basically a bunch of newborn baby souls who know nothing at all, is India. The nation of little baby souls, here for the first time, or second, not much more. Easily led. Senseless. Babies. It also says that there are a number of mature and older souls in India to help babysit the little babies. Gandhi would have been one of them.

• anonymous said on Apr 04, 2009....

  it isnt because of overpopulation ,or because these poor people in india are "monkeys" , its because of your own ideotic view of those people.How many poor people have you been freinds or even talked to in your life.If you had, you should know that these people also have hard lives ,with nothing to eat or nothing to wear .And worst of all ,they spend their lives eating trash from the trash cans.So what this girl did was save her family from going to that depth .Otherwise she & her family too would have been victims of poverty.So, what i am saying is.. wherever in the world you are ,poverty remains the same ,doesnt matter if you are in america or in india ,it's the same.Maybe HIV erupted in indian streets ,because of unhealthy sex, but that doesn't mean they are complete monsters ,it just means they didnt have the proper place to buy protection from, or maybe didnt have the cash.And maybe someday ,all you americans will look at your own conditions of poverty,and say what kind of a nation america is...and why you are letting this happen.
  And to mr.mbjesq,
  What you see in india as spiritual and mystical or whatever ,are all illussions in side yourself,india is looks bad because of it's poverty.THe thing that the so-called gurus or people with"immense" knowledge ,maybe sometimes true ,but that doesnt mean whatever they sayis completely true ,  i mean  try  reading some history books about ancient india ,before british came.You will find people refering to it as the land of fertility ,with immense beauty,with everything so perfectly placed.Whatever the present india come about is because of the british ,and their policies and the  discrimination faced by the indians.So maybe your mind has gone and followed into your illusion ,but dont let your eyes go into it.I recommend now itself , to go and search for ancient india on wiki pedia.
  cheers,
  from
   paul antony jose,( and yes i am an indian and also a christian)
  exodusera@gmail.com
  

  
  

• SallyOurs said on Aug 15, 2009....

  First off having been to the countries that you mentioned in Southeast Asia, I would just like to say that they are not shitholes. India is a shithole, Nepal is not. In fact India is the only country in the world that I have visited (and I have been to most) that I would qualify as a shithole. It thrives on a strong begging culture that existed long before any British colonialist set foot on its territory. What makes a country a shithole? Its denizens are, for the most part, ignorant and arrogant (a killer combination), steeping in stupidity. They are simply not pleasant; they are loud and rude, egregious in manner, completely devoid of perception. From this stems all the other arguments that one can put forth as to the why is it this way? India is a shithole because it is.

• conrad99 said on Sep 21, 2009....

  from what i have seen - docco wise - it is indeed a shithole. i would like to go and have a look for myself to see if there are some non shithole parts of it. I suggest that it has been a shit heap for thousands of years. Now that we have invented the television we are all starting to be aware of what goes on over there. With any luck some political pressure and teaching the shrewed bastards how to share some wealth, they might figure out how to make it better for everyone rather than suppressing people where they can via an archaic caste system. Good luck to them - i hope they clean themselves up!

• chanakya said on Oct 06, 2009....

  Folks, India's current state (incl. being loud and rude) has everything to do with poverty, and similar to that of Europe during middle ages. India's current state of poverty has everything to do with British and Mughals, who came and looted its wealth over the last 500+ years. Ever heard of India's Kohinoor diamond? Where is it now? Before the British came, India's contribution towards world's GDP was nearly 30% (the closest competitor was China), and UK's was less than 3%. When British left, India's contribution towards world's GDP was about 1% (of course, UK's contribution skyrocketed to above 25%). So it was a simple case of transfer of wealth from one place to another. Now, that shouldn't be an excuse to remain in a shit-hole forever. India is indeed trying hard to come out of its misery. But with a population of over one billion, its going to take some time for it to organize itself, and hopefully sooner than later, it would come out of its misery. Did you guys ever read about middle ages in Europe? Europe was in a shit-hole back then. There was nothing but wars, famine, religious fanaticism, and rampant diseases. Back then, India used to be the country of prosperity and intellectuals. It had underground drainage system working way back in 3000 BC. So stop calling Indians as sub-humans. Everything is temporary.

• chanakya1 said on Oct 06, 2009....

  Here is what Wikipedia has to say about the causes for poverty in India: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India#Hinduism_and_Caste_system 2.1 Hinduism and Caste system 2.2 British era 2.3 India's economic policies Also, see the graph that shows reduction in poverty rates. In 30 years between 1973-2003, % of population below poverty line went from over 50% to 25%. What that implies is that, by 2025, most Indians would have gotten out of the misery that Britishers had put them into. More from the same link: "The reign of the Islamic dynasty of the Great Mughals had been an era of unprecedented prosperity in India.[21] The Mughal era ended about 1800. Jawaharlal Nehru claimed "A significant fact which stands out is that those parts of India which have been longest under British rule are the poorest today."[7] The Indian economy was purposely and severely deindustrialized (especially in the areas of textiles and metal-working) through colonial privatizations, regulations, tariffs on manufactured or refined Indian goods, taxes, and direct seizures, as noted by linguist and commentator Noam Chomsky.[22] However, according to economist Angus Maddison, such explanation ignores the role of changes in demand and technology.[23] In 1830, India accounted for 17.6% of global industrial production against Britain's 9.5%, but by 1900 India's share was down to 1.7% against Britain's 18.5%. (The change in industrial production per capita is even more extreme due to Indian population growth). This is because Europe - particularly Britain - industrialized before the rest of the world."

• westernslut said 7 days ago....

  Sallyours? Why are most western women sluts?

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