• ALIENated said on Jan 01, 2008....

  I do not agree with torture, but this is just starting to seem like a bandwagon
  that liberals, Bush-haters, and Republican-haters are jumping on. It is becoming
  a parade of bandwagons. It is almost comical how the media and Hollywood are
  playing this up in an election year. I just hope the voters are as smart as I
  think they are and see through all this smoke screen of distraction.
  

• crybabylu said on Jan 01, 2008....

  I know, isn't it sad?

• silverwhisper said on Jan 02, 2008....

  i like how alienated completely dodges the issue and turns this into what is in his mind only yet another installment of the never-ending hatefest against bush, never once understanding that bush has royally fucked up, and is a criminal.
  
  i think our friend is right that bush began drinking again in his second term. b/c i'd hate to think that he's sober and this fucking stupid.
  
  ed

• TinSoldier said on Jan 02, 2008....

  Being a Republican, and somewhat conservative myself, how am I jumping on the bandwagon? Can I not oppose waterboarding and torture and still be conservative and Republican?
  
  I just hope that voters are smarter than you are and see past party affiliation to true values and principles instead of partisan smoke screens of distraction.
  

• silverwhisper said on Jan 02, 2008....

  nice turn of phrase in that final sentence, TS. :>
  
  ed

• bloc said on Jan 02, 2008....

  I think everyone knows my stance on torture. I'm always proud to see fellow veterans and active military willing to stand up for our ideals.

• crybabylu said on Jan 02, 2008....

  You can only imagine how badly he had to have felt to resign over it.

• stopmediabias said on Jan 06, 2008....

  When you read the article this guy who resigned is clearly a "bleeding heart."  This guy is so out of touch with reality it is almost sickening.

  "In his letter, Williams likened the use of torture by the United States to techniques used by the Spanish Inquisition, Nazi Germany and the Khmer Rouge. He also wrote that he hopes "the truth about torture, illegal spying on Americans and secret renditions is coming out."

  This guy frequents the same garbage sites as bloc.  But lets say waterboarding is torture and the United States was wrong for using it to save American lives.  Does this even close put us in the same league as those in the Spanish Inquisition, the Nazi's, or the Khmer Rouge?  The Navy should have tossed this idiot to curb before he resigned.   

• crybabylu said on Jan 06, 2008....

  SMB--I think he stated it rather well.  How can we denounce any of those other "atrocities" as long as we approve of any form of torture?

• bloc said on Jan 06, 2008....

  smb thinks that anyone who opposes torture is a bleeding heart, including john mccain and many other combat veterans. I'm glad to know that smb thinks that the majority of americans are liberals ;)

• ALIENated said on Jan 06, 2008....

  Waterboarding is an atrocity? Where are the rooms filled with skulls that they
  found in Cambodia? How many Jews have we tortured, again, I forget? Where 
  are the mass graves they found in Nazi Germany after the war? You have to be 
  sick in the mind to fall for this crap. Weaklings like this are not what we need 
  to deal with the likes of Osams Bin Ladin and his followers. 
  
  Silverweenie: if Bush is a criminal, why has he not been impeached? Because
  Pelosi, Hillary, and others were in on some of the original decisions. Only the
  spin by Hollywood and the liberal media have turned this all into something only
  Bush was responsible for, and you, the weak of mind, have fallen for it.
  
  

• stopmediabias said on Jan 06, 2008....

  CB-Do actually believe this shit?  You actually believe we are same as the Nazis?  Waterboarding someone to get intelligence that will save lives does not fall in the catagory as "atrocities."  Especially when no-one can put anything we have ever done into context. 

  bloc-You are completely insane!  Just about everyone opposes torture, you know this, everyone agrees with you!  But you constantly pluck out-context crap and put in highlights just like this idiot lawyer above.  If you find 50 people who say waterboarding is torture I'll find 50 people who say it isn't.  You compare America to groups that practiced numerous forms of torture against a large number of innocent people. 

   Like I've said, even if waterboarding is torture it is no where near the same torture as the Nazi's or the Japanese, that doesn't make it right but who cares?  Do you care if someone who would shoot a jewish baby in head because they believe they are ridding the world of infidels gets waterboarded?  Yes you do, and you represent a teeny tiny portion of the population and if you want to see them go to a Dennis Kucinich rally.  Most of the reasonable people in this country trust their own people to make the decisions that will keep us safe.

  And if the majority of Americans were Liberals we wouldn't be Americans, we'd be Germans.

• crybabylu said on Jan 06, 2008....

  SMB----torture is definitely a fine line that we need not cross.  Once we cross that fine line....where do we stop?

• crybabylu said on Jan 06, 2008....

  http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,158983,00.html?ESRC=navy.nl

  I just now went to the link that is posted at the top of this blog.  He is stating that we prosecuted those who did this........

   This is not an exact quote from that letter:  "In his letter, Williams likened the use of torture by the United States to techniques used by the Spanish Inquisition, Nazi Germany and the Khmer Rouge. He also wrote that he hopes "the truth about torture, illegal spying on Americans and secret renditions is coming out."  (SMB--is posting this quote in his post above)

  The subject is "waterboarding" not comparing us to the ones you mentioned, only similarity he mentions is the "waterboarding" issue.

• bloc said on Jan 06, 2008....

  american law has considered waterboaring torture for many many years. Our government has prosecuted people for torturing americans. Are you telling me that americans that have been waterboarded in japan or vietnam were not really tortured? That our conviction of some of those responsible should be overturned?

• ALIENated said on Jan 06, 2008....

  Hmmm. I wonder if the Japanese or the Vietnamese did other things as well? You
  know I do not remember seeing one movie about WWII or the Vietnam war that
  showed or mentioned waterboarding. Have any of you. I had never heard of it 
  before the liberals dragged it out for public inspection, as a tool to raise doubts
  about Bush.
  
  Bloc: you are always asking me questions, but you never answer questions. Do
  you think terrorists and enemy combatants have the same rights as U.S. citizens?
  Do you think illegal immigrants have the same rights as U.S. citizens? Why?  How
  do we proctect our country if we tie the hands of our authorities?
  

• silverwhisper said on Jan 06, 2008....

  alienated: your question, in the first sentence of the comment to which i am responding, is only relevant if you think that moral relativism is important: just b/c the japanese or the vietnamese did [x] that somehow has something to do with the morality or ethics of the question at hand.
  
  i would have thought that moral relativism is something you detest.
  
  ed

• bloc said on Jan 07, 2008....

  "Do you think terrorists and enemy combatants have the same rights as U.S. citizens?"
  
  Of course not, but that doesn't mean they have no rights or that it's ok to torture them.
  
  The idea that you look to movies to get historical facts is endlessly amusing. It also explains a lot.
  
  "I wonder if the Japanese or the Vietnamese did other things as well?"
  
  They did, but they were specifically tried for waterboarding. It was and has always been considered torture. Btw, Bush's policies use other torture techniques as well, like induced hypothermia.

• ALIENated said on Jan 08, 2008....

  I heard Bush stand up at a press conference and say "we do not torture people".
  Either he is a blatant liar and should be impeached, or he is telling the truth. If
  he is a blatant liar and should be impeached, the Democrat majority congress is
  a bunch of wimps or they agree that we are not torturing anyone.
  

• TinSoldier said on Jan 08, 2008....

  That is probably the best post of yours that I've read, ALIENated. Or at least the first time that I can unreservedly agree with you.
  
  
  

• bloc said on Jan 08, 2008....

  I agree with tin, and I agree that the democrats are a bunch of wimps at best.
  

• stopmediabias said on Jan 08, 2008....

  CB-We stop when the war is won and these wackos are not killing our kids.

  Bloc-your full of shit as usual, you've never seen the practice of waterboarding as done to the three detainees it was done too, you don't know why it was done, and all that you do know how we Americans interogate amounts to nothing. 

  Now take an Al Qaeda detainee from start to finish.  He's captured is the start and sent to prison in his home country is the finish.  His entire time is US custody, compare that to the American captured by the Japanese.  From start to finish the American is captured then after some years is freed and sent home. 

  Think about this scenerio then do your comparison.  According to you the treatment of the captive is the same.  This is monumentally naive and out of touch with reality of our times. 

  Alien-you brought up a good point, most of these Democrats didn't care about waterboarding until it became politically beneficial to them.

  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801664.html?hpid=topnews

• bloc said on Jan 08, 2008....

  "He's captured is the start and sent to prison in his home country is the finish. "
  
  I guess you haven't heard of this place called gitmo, which we also know has innocent people stuck in a legal limbo.

• TinSoldier said on Jan 08, 2008....

  You keep saying "Democrats", SMB. What about Republicans who are opposed to water boarding?
  
  Or are all of us Republicans who are against water boarding RINOs?
  

• crybabylu said on Jan 09, 2008....

  SMB--"Alien-you brought up a good point, most of these Democrats didn't care about waterboarding until it became politically beneficial to them."

  Not true!  We didn't know about the waterboarding.  I was so trusting, I thought USA would never ever do such a thing!  Just like I never ever thought that our phones could be wire=tapped or emails read.

• stopmediabias said on Jan 10, 2008....

  bloc-You just dodged the point. Gitmo is a seperate argrument.  I was addressing your comparison of the United States with people who really do torture. 

  Tin-The majority of Democrats/Liberals oppose waterboarding and I think most don't care either way, they just have found another way to stick-it to President Bush.  There are some Republicans who oppose it as well.  My problem is bloc compares our 30 seconds of waterboarding with 60's era Vietcong and I think that is horrible.

  CB-You obviously didn't check out that link that shows they knew about waterboarding and didn't care.

• bloc said on Jan 10, 2008....

  i love how smb makes patently false claims while also implying that waterboarding is the only torture technique we are using. I think it's harder to deny that induced hypothermia is torture. I guess it's hard to deny that the CIA tortured someone to death at abu ghraib. I guess it's hard to stand up for our torturing of an innocent Canadian and German.
  
  He has to lie to defend torture.
  

• crybabylu said on Jan 10, 2008....

  I guess I will try to comment after I get over the shock of these facts.

  It gets horribler, and horribler.......

• stopmediabias said on Jan 11, 2008....

  Bloc- I think we've been through this.  You don't trust your own people, I do. 
  Isn't that the millionth time you have called me a liar?  When exactly have I lied?  If you think induced hypothemia is torture you've probably never been deer hunting in the Northeast, and we induce hypothermia on our own people.  And you wanna talk about false claims lets go and visit some of the websites you source.
   
  And ya know torture can be a good thing, think of the guy that beat a 7 month old baby over a period of time until near every bone in his little body was broke and he finally died from a blunt force trauma to the head.  One cannot deny some torture would be fitting justice for this sub-human. 
   
  "I guess it's hard to stand up for our torturing of an innocent Canadian and German."
   
  This is what you call candyass Liberal propaganda.  If I wanted to stoop to this level of dialogue I could say:
   
  "This is coming from a person that is part of a party who twice voted in a serial womanizer and accused rapist, the second time even after he abused an innocent intern in the Oval office." 
   
   
  CB-I don't think you and bloc have the stomach for this argument.
  

• bloc said on Jan 11, 2008....

  i've never voted for Clinton and I'm not registered as a democrat which I've told you numerous times. Could this be another lie or do you simply have a faulty memory?
  
  I've pointed out many falsehoods you've stated in the past, I guess it doesn't hurt to do it one more time.
  
  "My problem is bloc compares our 30 seconds of waterboarding with 60's era Vietcong and I think that is horrible."
  
  This single statement has numerous falsehoods. First, you imply that our torture is limited to 30 seconds of waterboarding. We both know this isn't true, but I guess you'll play loose with the truth when you want to make a point. Second, what I've done is point out that we've always considered waterboarding torture and that we called it torture when the vietcong did it. This is simple truth.
  

• crybabylu said on Jan 11, 2008....

  SMB--oh yes I do have the stomach....I scanned most of this to hurry to writing you my comments.because when you said something way at the top.of your last comment......you got me going.

  "induced hypothemia is torture you've probably never been deer hunting in the Northeast, and we induce hypothermia on our own people. "  Are you saying this....or is it a quote.......because if you are saying this.........Then I got something to say to you.

   

  My husband actually complimented you on one of your blogs, and I said to him   "You can't compliment him or Alien....they already think they are right, and why encourage them in their insanity?"

  I said to him, "Okay, Mr. Conservative, what do you think about torture?   These two defend it.   These two says it is alright to waterboarding and induce hypothermia."

  Well, that got my husband's attention.  He says..."No, Never!  We must not defile our character for any reason, not any reason at all to risk your eternal soul."

  So, the next thing I guess you are going to tell me, is you believe once saved, you can do whatever you want and God condones it.   Believe you me...he does not!

  You and Alien keep saying how upright you are and how sinful the rest of the world is ..."us liberals"....well, let me tell you.....this...........

  Each person is going to give an account of their actions.  ...and that means you too, for approving such  acts.

     You take your eyes right now and look up to God, and you tell him...."Lord,  I know it isn't the human thing to do, but I know you understand since they are going around blowing themselfves up, etc.  etc."and killing all of those innocent people, and you know Lord, they are just nothing but dogs (I dare you to tell him that people he created, are nothing but dogs)

   

  Then you tell me what God said back to you, all right?

  You and Alien go on and on always talking about things that are an abomination unto God......Don't tempt me....I'll will dig up every scripture I can dig up, and shove it right under your nose.

  Reverend, Crybaby to you sir!

  What you are supporting is abominable! ! ! ! ! !

• crybabylu said on Jan 11, 2008....

  to everyone who agrees with torture:

  Rev. 22:12  Behold, I am coming soon, and I shall bring My wages and rewards with Me, to repay and render to each one just what his own actions, and his own work merit

  Isaiah 40:10  Behold, the Lord God will come with might, and His arm will rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His recompense before Him.

• crybabylu said on Jan 12, 2008....

  to every professing christian who believes in torture:

  King James Version

  1 Cor 3:12-15

  12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble:

  13 Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

  14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

  15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

• stopmediabias said on Jan 13, 2008....

  Bloc-I could care less what you are registered as, the point of view that you take is Liberal and most Liberals are Democrats. 
   
  " you imply that our torture is limited to 30 seconds of waterboarding. We both know this isn't true, but I guess you'll play loose with the truth when you want to make a point."
   
  Sorry but you don't know anything about "our torture," and most people don't last more than :30 seconds. 
   
  "Second, what I've done is point out that we've always considered waterboarding torture and that we called it torture when the vietcong did it. This is simple truth."
   
  Once again sorry but I just don't understand this mentality.  Try to think about this before you respond.  Take every contraversial thing we've ever done and compare to what the vietcong did.  Even in the practice of waterboarding, just this method, compare a number of generals and officers getting information from a Jiadist to a group of vietcong solgiers doing the same thing.  Its been well known that even the men that broke were still continuously tortured for years in Vietnam. 
   
  We have found a method that people cannot resist that has worked.  Ya it's torture if your motive is to make people suffer.  But under restricted and supervised situations and situations where many human lives are in the balance it is no where near what the vietcong did.   
   
  CB-These two defend it.   These two says it is alright to waterboarding and induce hypothermia."
   
   I do not defend torture, and like I've told bloc many times, I trust our people that if they have to waterboard someone we take the necassary steps to not cross the line.
   
  In this world of sawing off hands waterboarding and induced hypothermia is kind of silly when put into context as to the people we are dealing with.
   
  "So, the next thing I guess you are going to tell me, is you believe once saved, you can do whatever you want and God condones it.   Believe you me...he does not!"
   
  I don't know what you are talking about.
   
  "Each person is going to give an account of their actions.  ...and that means you too, for approving such  acts."
   
    How will Liberals give account for their completly negligent in-action such as the way Slick Willy handled these terrorists?
   
  "You take your eyes right now and look up to God, and you tell him...."Lord,  I know it isn't the human thing to do, but I know you understand since they are going around blowing themselfves up, etc.  etc."and killing all of those innocent people, and you know Lord, they are just nothing but dogs (I dare you to tell him that people he created, are nothing but dogs)"
   
  I hate to be the one to break this you but, the stray dog the runs around the streets tearing garbage bags apart is worth more than these people.  And I certainly don't know where your coming up with this "killing all of those innocent people" are we talking about the same thing?
   
   
   
   
   
   
  
   
   
   

• crybabylu said on Jan 13, 2008....

  SMB:  The killing of innocent people is what the right is saying "the perceived enemy" is doing......to defend the use of torture.

• stopmediabias said on Jan 13, 2008....

  This is where I think you are misguided.  We don't torture people as a matter of policy.  We defend the harsh interogation techniques we use by the fact that the enemy has brutally murdered thousands of people including small children and we must use these techniques to prevent this from happening again in the future.

   

• crybabylu said on Jan 13, 2008....

  smb---aha......Another thing we disagree on.

  Torture is not a deterrent of the behaviour you are refering to......

  In fact..It is like pouring gasoline on an already roaring fire.

• bloc said on Jan 13, 2008....

  if you make the argument that we need to do bad things to save lives where does it stop? In your assertion is the assumption that being harsh gets results. If this is the case then being harsher will get more results so why stop at waterboarding? Why not rip out their finger nails or hook up electrodes to their genitals if it will save more innocent lives? Where does this road you want to take us down end?

• silverwhisper said on Jan 14, 2008....

  smb, doesn't your position depend upon relative rather than absolute morality?
  
  ed

• stopmediabias said on Jan 14, 2008....

  CB-"Torture is not a deterrent of the behaviour you are refering to."

  We don't torture people, and despite what you read from all these far-left pinheads we Americans do not torture people as a matter of policy.

  And thank you, you've proven that waterboarding is not torture because waterboarding works and has worked in the past.

  Bloc-"if you make the argument that we need to do bad things to save lives where does it stop? In your assertion is the assumption that being harsh gets results. If this is the case then being harsher will get more results so why stop at waterboarding?"

  I just don't understand.  How exactly do you win a war?  These people are running around sawing peoples heads off and setting off bombs and killing everyone even there own people and WE as Americans in order to prevent these terrible things simulate drowning to get information.  People like you are the reason we are still at war.  If we fought this war to actually win it would be over. 

  Now please bloc not another off-cuff comment, think about and answer the question how exactly do YOU win a war?

  Silver-What exactly is morality by definition according to Liberals?  I can't answer your question because I am ignorant of your use of the term morality.

• bloc said on Jan 14, 2008....

  "And thank you, you've proven that waterboarding is not torture because waterboarding works and has worked in the past."
  
  this is one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. The fact that something is so excruciating that it compels people to talk does not prove that something is not torture. If anything it proves that it is torture.
  
  

• bloc said on Jan 14, 2008....

  btw, I'll answer your question after you answer the one I asked before it. Why stop at waterboarding and induced hypothermia? If you believe that harsh techniques are needed to save lives and win wars why stop there? Where do you draw the line and why?

• stopmediabias said on Jan 15, 2008....

  "Why stop at waterboarding and induced hypothermia?"

  This is exactly what I've been saying all along.  You accuse your own country and the people you voted for of being these terrible warmongering basterds and what do you have: waterboarding/induced hypothermia?  You guys can't prove this is torture, you don't know the context in which they happened, you know nothing about our policy of interogation and all of your "proof" comes from Left-wing nutbags who couldn't tell the truth if they had a gun to their head.   Don't you think we would have heard of far worse things and far more incidents if torture was a matter of policy ordered by US government?

  The line is drawn when the war is won and innocent people around the world don't have to be afraid of gettting their limbs blown off in a cafe from some lunatic who has gone off the deep end of religious extremism.

  This argument is almost the same as the death penalty debate, Liberals love to say "what about all the innocent people who have been wrongfully put to death?"  Ok find one case in modern history of someone who has been put to death and found out later to be innocent.  Same as this, find one case where the United States government under President Bush as a matter of policy tortured someone.  You can't do it without producing garbage that has an unfair mindless agenda against the Bush administration.

  And a common theme among Liberals is torture doesn't work, but waterboarding works, so you guys have a little problem with your argument there.     

• crybabylu said on Jan 15, 2008....

  We haven't had a good debate on "the death penalty" in awhile. 

  Someone needs to do a post on that. (not me).  I like commenting better.

• silverwhisper said on Jan 15, 2008....

  smb: as usual, you mischaracterize liberals. you're as bad as alienated that way. you probably will interpret that as a compliment, more's the pity.
  
  ed

• bloc said on Jan 15, 2008....

  inducing hypothermia on a prisoner to get intel is torture period. You still haven't answered my question d6. If harsh methods are needed to win wars then why stop at waterboarding? Surely harsher methods will work better no?
  
  btw, you use terms very loosely. What does it mean for waterboarding to work? torture will almost always make a person talk, but they often say what they believe the torturer wants to hear just to make the agony stop. Also, we have to define things like "work" and "winning" in a larger context. If torturing people creates more hatred towards america and helps create more terrorists then surely it doesn't work.
  

• stopmediabias said on Jan 15, 2008....

  Silver-thank you :>

  bloc- So where is the line you cannot cross.  When does harsh interogation become torture, in your opinion?

   

• crybabylu said on Jan 15, 2008....

  smb--I Know you were directing your question to me, but I'm weighing in.

  answer to smb's question----as to where is the line we cannot cross:

  No waterboarding, no hyperthermia, and other forms of TORTURE!

• bloc said on Jan 15, 2008....

  this is a good definition.
  
  "torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."
  
  Initiating a reflex that makes people feel as if they are drowning, i.e. dying, causes severe suffering.
  
  
  Now smb can you answer my question. If you believe that we need to be harsh to win a war then why stop at waterboarding if being harsher would surely have work better if one believes that harsh works in the first place?
  

• TinSoldier said on Jan 15, 2008....

  bloc, is that the UN convention against torture definition?
  
  Yes, I see that it is.
  
  Mike McConnell, the Director of National Intelligence, believes that waterboarding is torture but only if used against him.
  
  "For me, but not for thee."
  
  

• silverwhisper said on Jan 15, 2008....

  TS: now now, you know that smb's response to the UN convention will be to loudly assert that the UN threatens american sovereignty. c'mon, you've seen enough of these by now!
  
  [trout-smack]
  
  ed

• stopmediabias said on Jan 16, 2008....

   "If you believe that we need to be harsh to win a war then why stop at waterboarding if being harsher would surely have work better if one believes that harsh works in the first place?"

  Bloc- Right here and now in this time of terrorism every situation and every person that we capture is different.  We are no longer fighting a war against an army, we are fighting a war where just  a little bit of information can actually save a lot of lives.  Our policy has always been we Americans don't torture, therefore I trust our people with whatever tools or techniques they need.  Waterboarding is harsh and it sucks but the intelligence we get out of it's use is far more valuable than worring if it is torture or not.

  Now lets look at your definition, it comes from the United Nations which has no army and which means no enforcment of anything they come out with.  Is beyond the realm of ridiculous in the environment of war.  Is well read by our enemies and violated on a daily basis by our enemies.  And is not necassary in that we have our own laws against torture.

  But lets go by that definition, Bloc you are in charge and you catch a hardcore Jiadist and you know he knows where there are five nuclear warheads.  Using the UN official interogation guide, how do you get this guy to squawk? 

• bloc said on Jan 16, 2008....

  "we are fighting a war where just a little bit of information can actually save a lot of lives."
  
  This has been true in all wars. REad up on cracking the enigma during ww2 if you want an example.
  
  I'm not surprised that you still haven't answered my question. Why stop at waterboarding of information saves lives?
  

• silverwhisper said on Jan 17, 2008....

  smb asserted (without any support):
  waterboarding is harsh and it sucks but the intelligence we get out of it's use is far more valuable than worring if it is torture or not.

  
  and you say that based upon...what, precisely? o right: nothing.
  
  ed

• stopmediabias said on Jan 18, 2008....

  Bloc-I answered your question by saying every situation is different.  There are no absolutes in this debate, in certain situations there would be no stopping at waterboarding or even outright torture.

  "This has been true in all wars. REad up on cracking the enigma during ww2 if you want an example."
  
  But it is much worse in modern times because the enemy has far better technology at their disposal.

  Silver- http://www.newsobserver.com/701/story/483403.html,  so shut up...

• bloc said on Jan 18, 2008....

  i think the soviets had better technology than the current terrorists. I agree with you about every situation being different, but I feel we already have a mechanism to deal with that.
  
  If there is a ticking bomb scenario, which hasn't been the case for any of Bush's torture policies so far, then the person that decides to torture should be investigated and even charged with a crime. The judge presiding over the trial should take into account the circumstances accordingly and if all else fails the President has the power to pardon.
  
  I personally will not complain if a CIA agent or anyone else gets pardon under such circumstances, but this is not what is currently happening. The Bush policy has lead to torture as a fishing expedition when we had no idea if the person knew anything or not. We've even tortured people that turned out not to be terrorists at all!
  
  Here is a question for you smb, you capture someone that you think is a terrorist but you've been wrong in the past. You aren't sure if they know anything or not. What do you do? Is it ok to torture this person? Where would you draw the line?
  

• silverwhisper said on Jan 18, 2008....

  smb: nothing in that linked story supports your assertion that waterboarding and other torture methods were employed in extracting that data. go ahead. quote the relevant passage. i'm patient. i'll wait.
  
  ed

• bloc said on Jan 18, 2008....

  there is a very easy way that we could know if waterboarding were effective, watch the tapes of the interrogation. Unfortunately they were destroyed which says something about either the effectiveness or whether it is torture.

• silverwhisper said on Jan 18, 2008....

  i'm sure that the loss of those tapes was completely accidental and definitely not the result of a deliberate campaign to destroy possible evidence.[/sarcasm]
  
  ed

• bloc said on Jan 18, 2008....

  actually they've said that one of the reasons for the destruction was the fear of prosecution over torture.

• silverwhisper said on Jan 18, 2008....

  they actually admitted that? you know, that's refreshingly honest!
  
  ed

• stopmediabias said on Jan 19, 2008....

  So bloc how exactly do you know we haven't had a ticking bomb scenerio?
   
  Silver-we've only been over this about a hundred times.
   
  You guys really don't care either way do you and you're just fucking with me aren't you?
   
   I gotta be honest you guys are going no where with this argument, you hate America and I don't that's what it boils down too.  

• bloc said on Jan 19, 2008....

  of hte people we know were tortured we know that they weren't a ticking time bomb scenario.
  
  I hate torture, not america.
  

• TinSoldier said on Jan 19, 2008....

  Yeah, c'mon ed, bloc. I've been meaning to ask you two -- why do you hate America?
  
  After all I mean if you don't support "by any means necessary" then you must hate America.
  
  You know what happens when you hate America, right? You go to that special hell. The one reserved for child molesters and those who talk at the theater.
  

• bloc said on Jan 19, 2008....

  yeah, you know me. My secular self is trying to help the muslims take over ;) You know someone is unable to defend their position when they resort to, "why do you hate america".
  
  
  

• stopmediabias said on Jan 20, 2008....

  bloc- you clearly hate America because your heart bleeds for the poor and downtrodden and you associate America with everything that is greedy and corrupt.  Go through all of your posts about torture, print them out then take them to military base and let some of the guys returning from Iraq read them.  You have kneecapped your own country by your rhetoric with testimonies from people who make a living by either lieing or seriously bending the truth. (people like crooksandliars.com)

  This may seem kind of harsh but what do your friends in the miliary say about you accusing them of sodomy on detainees.  This kind of shit doesn't come from people who love their country.

  Tin-I've never taken the "any means necassary" stance, even though there are extreme situations where that should be used.  I trust the people we have put in charge and believe despite a lot of our shortcomings in the past we are still a source of good in the world.

• bloc said on Jan 20, 2008....

  "you clearly hate America because your heart bleeds for the poor and downtrodden"
  
  Haha, do your realize what you just said?
  
  Btw, I'm a veteran and I know many veterans and active duty people. Most agree with my about torture. Im not saying everyone in the military does, but many do. Including John McCain.
  
  I find it very disturbing that you equate people that oppose torture as some sort of insult against everyone in the military. This is illogical and so mindless as to be frightening.
  

• stopmediabias said on Jan 20, 2008....

  "Btw, I'm a veteran and I know many veterans and active duty people. Most agree with me about torture. Im not saying everyone in the military does, but many do. Including John McCain"

  Everybody agrees with you about torture, the majority don't believe the idiots you have quoted that say we Americans like to finger sodomize people, or send people to an enemy state so we can have them tortured, or touching men's genitals, etc etc etc..the list is endless of baseless accusations you have thrown on probably people you have served with.  Think about that.

  "I find it very disturbing that you equate people that oppose torture as some sort of insult against everyone in the military. This is illogical and so mindless as to be frightening. "

  Like of said a million times just about everyone opposes torture.  The fact that you have portrayed your own people in headlines and in posts like we are a bunch of torturing monsters puts you on the same level as Michael Moore and Rosy and the invisible germs that are floating around in our air.   Mr. Moore's believes America is greedy and corrupt and his heart bleeds for the poor and downtrodden(which in most cases it's not poor but lazy).  Nice of you to take my comment out of context.  

  Punch up the word torture in any search engine and you find a thousands sites pointing fingers at America.  There are countries around the world that would torture you death if you were to speak out and we have helped shut down countries like this for years and suddenly we are bad guys?  Shameful, just shameful.
  

    

• bloc said on Jan 20, 2008....

  We've seen pictures of many of those acts. We have documents authorizing things like induced hypothermia. We waterboard without a doubt. All of these things are torture.
  
  We are what are actions make us. We are currently a torturing country.
  

• TinSoldier said on Jan 20, 2008....

  I'm a veteran too, and many of the guys I know, sadly, would have no problem with the treatment of these detainees.
  
  However, many of them do have a problem. Military are not really a monolithic group, politically, as we have discussed before. In general, though, they are conservative and have less of a problem with "harsh techniques" than do some of us.
  
  Now I, personally, have seen men detained with sandbags over their heads, their hands ziptied behind their backs, and placed under camouflage netting in the heat of the day. It's a little disturbing, but understandable. But there is a line, and I think that in some cases our country has crossed it. Not that it is necessarily a general policy, but that in some cases it is either ordered or swept under the rug.
  
  And we shouldn't stand for that.
  
  Do we subject our own military people to hardships? To hazing that would seem like torture if used on enemy combatants? Do some people voluntarily submit themselves to hypothermia during hunting season? Yes. But the key word here is "voluntarily". Enemy combatants and EPWs (the current term for POWs) have no such luxury except so far as they may or may not have volunteered to become our enemy.
  
  The interesting thing is that I was reading in the newspaper today about the capture of the US spy ship Pueblo in 1968 -- forty years ago. Where one man was killed and eighty-two were held captive by the Norks for 11 months, and regularly beaten.
  

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