• skald said on Dec 25, 2007....

  Dear Skeleton. You really did answer many of the questions your self and you did well. You may not know that I come from Iceland and there we have Yule Lads which are our Santas. My grand children believe in them and it is fun. Later they will know how this is and they will not be disappointed so it is not like lying.
  
  If you lye to be good that is not so bad but if you lye just for your own benefit it is bad.
  There are people who lye by being quiet and not saying anything. If it is for example letting a your girl believe that you are in love with her it is very bad.
  
  If it is not saying something so some one will not be unnecessarily hurt. It is not so bad.
  Bearing a false witness can be done by telling untrue things about people and damaging their reputation in that way.
  I do think your post is very good and you covered many aspects there. Love Skald.
  

• Skeleton said on Dec 25, 2007....

  Thank you for your insight, Skald.  It is interesting that you have santas in Iceland, does this mean that the children know that there is more than one?  Do the children know that the gifts come from their parents and family?
   
  I know that I covered many aspects about lying in my post, it is because some of these things I have been wondering about for some time.
   
  Thank you again for your comment.

• GracefullyGrowing said on Dec 25, 2007....

  One thing the Bible also says is "To everything there is a season".  While it doesn't *specifically* mention bearing false witness or lying in that passage of Ecclesiastes, the concept must be understood, not a literal interpretation only.  The Bible is full of seeming contradictions.  As is any book of what people consider Scripture.  In one place it tells us G-d can not lie, in another it tells us He sends lying spirits to people.  Undoubtedly a contradiction, no?
   
  One obvious thing the Bible teaches through these seeming contradictions is that most everything is a judgement call that each of us must make on our own. So the way to understand is to remember that Scripture is very very personal.  It speaks to each person what they are able to understand from where they are - experience it, and then achieve spiritual growth.
   
  IMO, lying by omission is sometimes appropriate.  Out and out blatant lies is sometimes appropriate.  "White lies" are sometimes appropriate.  But by NO means is it appropriate at all, or even most of, times/the time.  It's always a judgement call upon examination of the persons involved and the circumstances in which they find themselves. 
   
  And now, the real point of my comment - The key to making the judgement, IMO, is love.  Always present with love and the witness we bear will never be a lie.  It's pretty simple, really, once ya think about it.
   
  Hooked on love works for me!
   
  ~Grace~

• fearing said on Dec 25, 2007....

  Wow Skeleton - jump right in with a deep, thought provoking question why don't you?  Teasing. 
  
  I hate to say it but I'm on the fence.  I don't believe there is a gray area with God.  Do you?  But, I will not say that I would tell Mrs. So-and-so her hubby is a lying, cheating weenie in the next hotel room with a floozy. 
  
  Your point also reminds me of something that happened yesterday with my 2 sons.  They walked over to the elderly neighbors house to deliver her gift.  She is a wonderful woman who has adopted my children as her own grandsons.  My boys stayed for a while and when they came home they arrived carrying a bag of gifts and a most prized possession  - homemade pound cake!  I asked what took them so long and the oldest said she gave them dessert.  He said it was peaches with chocolate sauce.  I was surprised because he is super picky and wanted to know if he ate it.  He said yes and told her how good it was.  In truth, he hated it.  And you know what?  I was proud of him for lying to her.  In the no gray area with God - I'm guessing it was wrong of him to lie and wrong of me to be happy about it.  We love that woman and it would be horrible to have hurt her feelings.  So there's my fence.
  

• quietone said on Dec 25, 2007....

  This just reminded me of a test I had to take for a job I had years ago...it was a test about lying.  To make a long story short..there were questions like you have asked and the LAST question on the test was...."have you ever lied".  So in the long run...of course my answer was yes, so that really made all my other carefully thought out answers void didn't it.  I believe there is a time when one does "avoid" the truth..and a person can always tell (or I can anyway) if it was the right thing to do by the way I feel inside.  The Santa thing...well, I think most kids after 5 really do know the difference anyway...and just pretend for their parents sake!

• crybabylu said on Dec 25, 2007....

  I personally wouldn't touch this conversation with a 10 ft pole, but you all seem to be doing just fine with it.   Have a good one.

• skald said on Dec 25, 2007....

  The children don't  get Satas presents at Christmas. They put their shoes in the windows and 12 days before the Christmas the Yule lads start coming to the habitation. they live in caves in the mountains. Each of them gives the kids small things in their shoes. Mind you small things, like a lollipop or a pen. At Christmas they don't give anymore. These lads used to be bad but now they are kind of good. Kind of mixed with Santa and their own origin.
  
  Later on the kids will learn that this is just a fairytale and tradition.   

• wakingharmony said on Dec 25, 2007....

  We Have different answers with out lying . One being  You believe in Santa.... Santa will Come. When you no longer believe then he won't come. Also as long as someone Loves you.. there will  always be a Santa...Also those that love you have to help pay for the materials to build or make what you would like....Its not that He likes someone better. 

• Skeleton said on Dec 25, 2007....

  GracefullyGrowing, I really appreciate your candid comment.  The most striking thing that you said is that we should be motivated by love.  I think this is key.  I will be chewing over your comment more.
   
  Fearing, I will join you on that fence esp when we are responsible for teaching our kids right from wrong.  I struggle with these things as well.  I also do not believe that there are any gray areas with God, but I do wish I could understand better.  Note the example I used about the Nazis and the Jews.  Those "lies" saved lives.  I know of instances in the Bible where people lied in order to save lives. . .I think the prostitute who hid the spies who went to Jericho is one example. 
   
  Quietone, thank you for sharing that interesting snippet of your life.  Up to now I have also gone with the feeling inside as my guide, but I have wondered how acurate that feeling really is and whether I am just fooling myself and will miss Heaven by a mile!  LOL about the kids just pretending for the sakes of their parents.
   
  Crybaby, I am sorry to hear that.  I have read some of your blogs and think you would have a lot to contribute here.  I just want honesty, no judgement either way.
   
  Skald, thank you for sharing about your traditions, I find it very interesting :)
   
  Wakingharmony, I also find that interesting.  So, its safe to say that you dont believe that helping your kids to believe in Santa is lying?

• pickersplock said on Dec 25, 2007....

  Ah, I have often said there are no moral absolutes!

• the_infernal_optimist said on Dec 25, 2007....

  I think omitting information when the full disclosure can only, to the best of your knowledge and judgment, hurt the people it concerns, is an acceptable "lie." I'm with pickers in that it, like so much else that's important, cannot be merely black and white.
  
  ~Infernal
  

• crybabylu said on Dec 25, 2007....

  Alright, Skeleton, against my better judgement, I 'm going to jump on in.

  Lieing is wrong, and yes, I know there are execptions.  But the only problem with those exceptions, is if you use those exceptions too much, then they become the rule.  If you know what I mean.

  If I had some jewish people in my cellar hiding out from hitler's gang, I would lie, cheat, and steal, to protect them.  But short of that, I would try my best not to do any of it.      Thanks, dee

   

• wakingharmony said on Dec 25, 2007....

  No, I Santa Is Not a lie. It is a true Story and Santa is Real Yes maybe it is mom and dad Or Grandma & Grandpa. I dont believe in all the comercialism... I have always given my children an option..... "Santa Only Comes to those that Believe In Him"  When You No longer Believe Santa Doesn't come.  Most all gifts are from Santa only a couple from Mom &Dad.  and of course relatives. We also some how end up with presents that someone has sent...as Santa.... & We do the same Likewise. My daughter Colleen Works in A  Major Childrens  Hosp. in the Pharmacy. She will by Gifts and put from Santa to children. It is a Spirit Of giving without needing to be praised or rewarded for your gift. Your gift is the feeling you get by being Anon. and seeing the Happiness of our children!
  

• lfbno7 said on Dec 25, 2007....

  I think your question brings us back to a more basic question - what is right and wrong, what is morality, what is ethics, what are all these things, how do we know what is the right thing to do. I think that the subject of lying is one of the many things encompassed by this question about right and wrong.
  
  I would define ethical behavior as a good balance between acting on your own behalf and acting on behalf of others.
  
  So to be ethical it is not necessary to just give give give, but it is necessary to keep the best interests of other people in mind and act on that too.
  
  How does this relate to your questions? Well, in the case of saving someone with a lie, it is ethical to save the person with a lie because it is acting on behalf of that person, and at that point, it would not be a good balance to just worry about your clean record of absolute honesty and to sacrifice someone's life to keep yourself spotless.
  
  I don't think it is a good thing to always tell the truth. If the truth will lead to bad consequences, such as the one in your example, it would then be evil to tell the truth. Because truth is not the absolute. My definition of ethical behavior did not mention the word 'truth'.
  
  But I think that truth is compulsory if you want to have a good relationship with someone. If friends or spouses are not telling each other the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, the foundation of their relationship is corrupt, which turns the whole thing filthy.
  
  It is not necessary to tell the truth to "everyone". People can be asking things of you that are none of their business to know, and it is definitely not necessary to be an open book to everybody you meet. It can even be the ethical thing to lie to someone's face, depending on the circumstances. You gave a good example of that yourself.

• phoeby said on Dec 26, 2007....

  I would never suggest to either myself or other people to follow a book such as the bible to the letter. But that's just me. 
  
  
  I would always follow my intuition. It's one of my beliefs that our own inner guidance  will always be relevant and wise and right always. 
  
  
  If that inner guidance feels it is best to speak, speak. If you feel you need to withhold information or thoughts, withhold. If it feels right to disengage in a situation, disengage. To be guided by something outside you to me is rather um..... disempowering.
  
  
  just my 2 cents
  
  
  Phoeby 
  
  
  
  

• Skeleton said on Dec 26, 2007....

  Pickersplock, I suppose you are right, but it would be nice if there were a handbook.
   
  The Infernal Optimist, yes I can understand that not wanting to hurt people concerned can be a motivation for lying.  I just find that usually there is someone pulling at the shortest end of the stick and that its usually the innocent party.
   
  Crybabylu, thank you for commenting.  I agree with your outlook, but as I said to Pickersplock, it would be nice to have a clearly outlined handbook.
   
   

• Skeleton said on Dec 26, 2007....

  Wakingharmony, thank you.  I get the bit about the anonymous presents to people who dont know you, but I dont get why the kids would want to keep believing in Santa if they are going to get gifts anyway.
   
  Ifbno7, you mention a lot of really good points.  I esp. like that the truth is compulsory if we want to have a good relationship with someone.  However, I have a situation where a friend's spouse flirts with me when they are drunk, but I dont mention this to my SO because I dont want to hurt them. . .what is your take on that?  I try to avoid those uncomfortable situations, and I dont say anything because I dont want to upset my friend nor my SO.  What to do?
   
  On another point you mentioned, if people ask things that are none of their business we should just say "its none of your business" or "I prefer not to disclose".
   
  Phoeby, thank you for your comment.  I understand the bit about following your feelings, which I assume by which you mean following your intuition.  Feelings can be misleading sometimes and sometimes we should act the opposite to what we are feeling in order to do the right thing.

• crybabylu said on Dec 26, 2007....

  My husband, Preacherman, agrees with skald....I was reading your post, and its comments, and he told me to say he agrees with skald.

• cntlvmenuf said on Dec 26, 2007....

  Skeleton:  Motive is everything. For your son, he did not want to hurt the old lady's feelings. If you are telling a lie for your own selfish reasons, then that is wrong and self-serving. If its for the greater good....like during the Holocaust, then that is saving somebody elses' life. I think this is also a matter of personal opinion to an extent....what is right with you is not necessarily right by your neighbor. I do believe if you don't tell lies for "righteousness' sake" or because you feel "holier than thou"...your motives may not be entirely pure....(Remember the story of throwing the first stone?)
  Then again, "The truth will set you free...." Telling a lie requires you to remember it and tell others to keep it covered......

• Skeleton said on Dec 26, 2007....

  Crybabylu, thank you for putting that comment in from your husband.
   
  Cntlvmenuf, firstly interesting username; what does it mean?  I appreciate your comment.  It seems I am the only one (besides Fearing) who is struggling with the whole lying issue.  You hit a very good point: "If it is for the greater good". . .is it always possible to know exactly what "the greater good is"?  I am not so sure.  Does this mean that we should all just be left to our own devices and hope for the best?

• crybabylu said on Dec 26, 2007....

  SKELETON--YOU HAVE ME confused........you say to cntlvenug---that only you and fearing are struggling with the whole lying issue.

  What do you mean by that statement.

  I don't see than anyone here is taking a position that lying is right.

  Please further explain...

• lfbno7 said on Dec 26, 2007....

  The flirting question is a tough one. Not sure what's going on there. Is she harmlessly playing or cheating? Some people just get flirty, and it's harmless. Some people cheat. Maybe some time when she isn't drunk you can ask her, not in front of him. Just watch how you ask her, because if you do it the wrong way it can all get turned around as if you are making a pass at her. Ever hear of the phrase "no good deed goes unpunished"?

• fearing said on Dec 26, 2007....

  Skeleton, All I ask is if I send you a photo and ask you if my butt is big, please lie.  Okay?

• wakingharmony said on Dec 26, 2007....

  Ah But All the good presents come From Santa....Mom & dad Only Have A few. under the tree...Although they don't get cheated out when they grow   They get what Santa Is all about..... Santa even brings something for mom & dad... It is all in the heart and thats  what they learn.  My children love to be Santas too. They know that to give w/o the knowledge of others .......is the Most rewarding Gift of all.

• Skeleton said on Dec 27, 2007....

  Crybabylu, I said "it seems. . ."  What I meant is that everyone else seems to "know" exactly when or when not it is appropriate to lie.  I feel the odd one out (besides Fearing who openly admitted that she struggles with this too) because this really troubles me.  I would like to know 100% what is right; but I know that wont be possible.
   
  Ifbno7, the thing is that my friend's spouse is a different person when they are sober, I would not even broach the subject.  I suppose it is "harmless", but I have a feeling that it could be very hurtful if my friend knew.  It just is not right.  Anyway, I try to avoid those situations. My relationship with my friend is important to me, but in this case I dont think the truth is compulsory.
   
  Fearing, I would never and I mean NEVER tell any lady that her butt looks big :)
   
  Wakingharmony, ok if it works for you! Santa is obviously very important to you and your family.

• phoeby said on Dec 27, 2007....

  Hi Skeleton,
  
  
  You said: "I understand the bit about following your feelings, which I assume by which you mean following your intuition".  
  
  

  No, that's not what i mean by intuition. Our feelings are (usually) the result of what we are thinking. So if we are thinking negative, fear based thoughts, our feelings will be on the negative side pretty much straight away or soon after the collection of negative thoughts.  If we think positive, loving or joyful thoughts (or any thoughts which are 'better than' what we've been thinking), we will feel better. We will feel more positive emotions. There is a direct link between thought and feeling.

  
  

  Intuition is sometimes described as a sixth sense or an inner knowing. A gut feeling (not to be confused with our 'feelings' i just described). Intuition is a sense we have without knowing why or where it came from. It involves trust and faith in our own connection with source (or god/goddess/all-that-is or whatever you wish to call it--- it doesn't matter).

   

  "Feelings can be misleading sometimes and sometimes we should act the opposite to what we are feeling in order to do the right thing"

  Um...... well i'd have to disagree. But I think i can see what you are meaning. See, feelings are just responses to the thoughts you are thinking. they are no demonic or in anyway bad. They are responses. So if your thoughts are shitty, well then your feelings will be pretty negative also. And you may or may not wish to act upon those. Hence you're statement perhaps? The trick is to align your thoughts with good. With joy and happiness (even if the world around you looks to be opposing good and happiness) and then your feelings will automatically turn around also. Then at the same time you will be connected with source and your intuition will kick in (providing you aren't sabotaging it with more fearful thoughts etc).

  
  

  Love Phoeby

• Skeleton said on Dec 27, 2007....

  Phoeby, thank you. You did however say "I would always follow my intuition" and then later in the comment you said "If you feel you need to withhold information or thoughts, withhold. If it feels right to disengage in a situation, disengage."  Thus, if feelings and intuition are so different, then which motivates your actions?  You can understand why I was confused, because you moved from saying that following your intuition is best and then you said you should do what you feel.  Thus, I assumed that when you said "feel" in the second paragraph you still meant "intuition".
   
  I agree that feelings are responses to thoughts and the feeling that will cause most people to lie is fear.  "Gee, I bumped my dad's car. . .I dont want to tell him for fear of his anger. . .my feelings are negative and fearful. . .but, my HEAD (my intuition) knows that it is the right thing to do"  This is what I meant by acting opposite to how we feel. . .but, I think you got the gist of that anyway.

• phoeby said on Dec 27, 2007....

  yes, i can see how that probably threw you. I use the word 'feel' instead of 'think' sometimes for some reason! But that wasn't very clear, i know.
  
  
  What happens generally is, that intuition can occur  in a variety of ways. Mine happens to come to me through inner knowing, sometimes physical sensations (like prickly skin etc), sometimes heightened feelings (that's where it could get confusing... but i'm aware of the difference personally), clair audience (hearing - this is technically called 'guidance'. So it's a tiny bit different from intuition per se but in the same sort of area), clairvoyance (visions might pop into my head).  All intuition really is, is a nice solid connection with the spiritual part of ourselves. It is called our higher self. The non-physical part of ourselves which is sort of like our go-between been our physical self and the higher energies we are a part of.
  
  
  Oh i didn't exactly say that the feeling that will cause most people to lie is fear... there could be other feelings, such as guilt. If someone is extremely guilty they might lie also. But fear is a good general blanket type feeling. And one could say that fear and guilt are related anyway. Guilt is blame turned inwards. 
  
  
  Yeah i understand what you're saying, re: the car/fear thing. The extreme fear might prevent a person from telling their dad about it at that point.   I would suggest that to get to that point, the person hasn't been listening to their intuition in the first place! HAHAAAA.
  
  
  And you're 'head' isn't your intuition.. btw.... but i do totally get what you're saying. Your 'head' is what people refer to your mind or perhaps thoughts. But that's not technically where our mind is either.But that's another story. 
  
  
  this is getting a bit stuck in semantics.
  
  
  Have a great day!
  phoeby

• cntlvmenuf said on Dec 27, 2007....

  Skeleton: I think its best to first know ourselves....our strengths and our limitations...and what motivates us....may be that might help us not land in some sticky situations in the first place.
  Noo...I do not think we should be left entirely to our own devices....sometimes we don't see beyond our noses....which means we may make unintelligent and uninformed decisions since we are missing the big picture. Another thing is we are bound to ruffle some feathers...whichever decisions we make. I say just be sure whatever lie you tell is something you can live with....you don't want to walk around with a guilty conscious....or have somebody else take a fall for you... 
  .....is there a particular answer you are looking for??
  As for what my name means, I wrote a post about it here

• husbandhater said on Jan 03, 2008....

  I think interms of the Nazis and the Jews it was perfectly o.k. to lie to the authorities in this instance b/c although they are our government what they do is not always right and Moral. I don't think taking thousands and making them vurtual slaves is right. Nor was it right to kill them just for their religious beliefs,for their finances,the gold in their mouth,the hair on their heads,nor experiment on them and their innocent children. I would have hid people and lied to them too. But if were talking about the wife senario that can be a slippery slope. The kid things you have a point .

• Skeleton said on Jan 05, 2008....

  Phoeby,Cntlvmenuf and Husbandhater, thank you all for your comments.

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