• Alyss said on Dec 12, 2007....

  Thank you LJ but in the UK the going rate for childcare is £5/hour and my working day is 8am to 5:30pm and I get 30m mins for lunch. ;-)

• Zayda said on Dec 12, 2007....

  Ahhh..LJ..Thanks for this. I should point out that the going rate for child care here is $8.00 an hour. Further, we should rectify the notion that teachers don't work in the summer. They don't teach classes in the summer. They do, still, however work. That's when all the planning for the classes they begin teaching in August occurs, but then you know this.
  
  
  So, whoever wrote that needs to recalculate their formula.
  
  
  Granted, I wouldn't sneeze a a salary based on that formula. Especially given that this semester I taught 4 different classes, 3 of which had 25 students each in them and the 4th with 18 students in it. So, let's see, based on that forumla:
  
  
  $19.50 x 93 = $1813.50 x 180 = $326,430 a year.
  
  
  But wait...I have Master's degree, so....
  
  $7.00 x 6.5 hours = $45.50 X 93 = $4,231.50 x 180 = $761,670 a year.
  
  
  Yeah, I'll take that salary over my current one any day.

• Alyss said on Dec 12, 2007....

  Agrees with SuperZ about the so called holidays. ;-)
  
  That salary still looks pretty good to me, especially if my higher qualifications come into play.
  

• lioneljay said on Dec 12, 2007....

  I wonder if I might make as much as $9 per hour on this logic, since I have nearly all of a PhD (and you might as well, dear Z). Most of the years when I was teaching high school I had an average of 25 in each of five classes. However, the math still works out about the same as the example because I was only in contact with each student for 1/5 of the school day (this is the flaw in your math, btw, Z).
  
  Still, when people complain about teachers' salaries and their hours, this rebuttal (even though it ignores all the hours that most teachers work outside the classroom) is quite suitable.
  

• Zayda said on Dec 12, 2007....

  LJ--Yes, it's quite a suitable rebuttal. Interestingly, I rarely hear anyone complain about teachers getting paid too much.
  
  
  But, let's not get into how labeling a teacher as nothing more than someone who babysits children as being insulting to the profession.

• TinSoldier said on Dec 12, 2007....

  Zayda -- heh. I agree that teachers aren't just babysitters.
  
  At those rates of pay, more people would certainly choose teaching as a profession, both the good and the bad. Unfortunately, I think fewer communities or individuals would be able to afford to fund education.
  
  But the only place I see people complaining about teachers' salaries is usually in the letters to the editor section of the newspaper, and those folks are usually cranks anyway.
  
  On a related topic, I think that we should move to year-round schooling and do away with summer break. Well, at least that summer break shouldn't last an entire three months.
  

• curmudgeon said on Dec 12, 2007....

  Paying by the child might sound fine, but I'd deduct wages for every child that fails a test or falls behind his or her peers. I wouldn't pay for a bad babysitter. In fact, I'd fire the babysitter and find a new one if I didn't think s/he was doing a good job.
   
  The educational model in the ancient world was that students would simply follow teachers and pay as they went along. The more popular teachers made more money. The crappy ones had to find other work.
   
  Hey - now this by the pupil model works!

• Eilan said on Dec 12, 2007....

  Teachers don't make 50K a year where I live, unless they're ready to retire.

• Zayda said on Dec 12, 2007....

  Crumudgeon--The inherent logic of saying "I'd deduct wages for every child that fails a test" is that it's always the teacher's fault when a child fails a test. This is simply untrue.
  
  
  Just because a child fails a test doesn't mean the teacher is a bad teacher. Many children fail because they don't take responsibility for their work, they don't take responsibility for studying, and they simply don't take responsibility for their learning. They make one excuse after another about why they didn't get something done, etc.
  
  A student doing well is not the sole responsibility of the teacher. It's the responsibility of the teacher, the parents, and the students as well.

• TinSoldier said on Dec 12, 2007....

  Eilan -- I doubt that we would have many teachers in Oregon for less than $50K. It's not starting salary, but neither is it retirement salary.
  
  Zayda -- true again. Parents, teachers, and students are all responsible for results.
  

• curmudgeon said on Dec 12, 2007....

  If all are responsible, why should the teacher be the only one getting a per-child salary? Shouldn't the student then be paid to study, and the parents then paid to encourage them to study?
   
  It is undeniable that there are many ineffective teachers working in our school system. If teachers are to be paid on a per-child basis, then parents and students must have the choice of teachers. That means that some teachers will have 80 students and others will have 5 or 10. To force parents to pay a bad teacher 385k is plainly bad policy that is doomed to failure.

• ZsuzsiO said on Dec 13, 2007....

  wow! Let me tell you guys, as a first-year- eacher I am amazed by how wrong I was about what teachers do, and about the job in general. I only used to teach in private schools in group based courses before, and I was always mad about things I saw comming from the school system. I was sure I will be the one to show "there people" how it all should go down. Well.....

  I've got the entire fifth AND the entire third grade (3 classes each) and I help out in the entire fourth grade where the classes are just way too packed (about 40! children each class). On paper I work only 19 hours, so I thought it'll be a child's play. Little did I know that above the 19 hours on paper, I'll be in school for an avarage 3 hours/day or more doing all kinds of happy things, like sit on meetings with the other teachers and the principal about lesson plans, students, educational developments, and all. I didn't know I was going to sit on the phone responding to parents complains, or talking about their children's behaviour. Of course, even the most problematic child's parents think that he/she is an angel, and that the teacher is wrong. I didn't know that I will have to face about 30 kids/class each day, and deal with at least 4-5 ADHD/ADD children who'll turn the class up side down while I will have absolutely no way to ponish them. It's not that I want to beat these kids up, but you know, when I am being cursed out, laughed at, and ignored, and nothing I can legally do is actually respected by the child or the parents, well, I really think twice about the possibility of maybe changing careers. The funny thing is that I know that due to these behavioral problems the entire class is missing important minutes, and with that, important study materials at once.

  But than I go home, just so I can check tests and mini tests, home works, and papers. When I don't do that, I can plan the next test or mini test materials, think about extra work for those who can do more than the avarage, and to those who are not exactly on the class' level. I make review pages to the parents, so they can see what we are doing in class and are able to prepare their children for the tests.

  I create papers and activities for the holidays, I create proper decoration for the classroom walls, and when I have a little time to relax I spend it by making charts where I can keep track of the grades I give out as a class and as each individual child. I make charts for each test to see what part of the material needs more studies, and I make charts to compare class/grade developments.

  I basically work all the time - even on my week ends.

  And I do not get paid for all that extra work at all.

  See, when I go to the class, I am only doing a little part of the actual work. By than, everything is done, everything is planned, everything is checked and believe me, if I make a mistake on those tests parents WILL call me in outrage to demand their children's rights. So I go to the class, try to educate these children IF I can get al 3--40 if them behave, make sure I go by the yearly, weekly, daily lesson plan.

  Personally, I don't like to rush thru the material, so I make sure they all understand what I have to teach them, and I don't mind to explain things twice or more.

  Some times I have to be a judge, or a psychologist when the kids fight, or when they  just have a bad day, don't feel good, etc. Some times I have to be a doctor to know if that head ache is for real, and needs more attention, or is it just an attempt to get out of class.

  Yet, I do not get doubled or trippled pay checks. As a matter of fact, I get minimum pay.

  I'd love to get paid by each student, on this very same minimum pay. I'd love to just select those kids out, who do not do home work, school work and basically just come to school cause mom and dad is at work. I don't really need them to bother me when I want to teach the rest of the class. I don't mind not getting paid for those kids.  I'd also be willing to stay in school and punch a time card just to show how much I really work, and get paid by my real hours. I wouldn't ask for paid holidays either, if this system would be the pay system.

  Funny thing is the life of a teacher's...........

• silverwhisper said on Dec 13, 2007....

  that was absolutely hysterical!
  
  curm, i trust you're being facetious rather than serious?
  
  ed

• Taffy000 said on Dec 13, 2007....

  Great post!! I think teachers are smart to have chosen a profession that lets them have several months off during the year.  Dealing with children, even college age children is difficult to say the least.  I'm surprised that one of my friends STILL enjoys teaching even though they have classes filled with students who are determined not to learn. 

• Eilan said on Dec 13, 2007....

  I'm not sure where people get the idea that teachers stop working on the last day of school and don't start again until summer break is over.  It shows, IMO, a lack of understanding of what teaching--at any level--entails.
  
  The teachers in my daughters' district are at school almost every day (Monday through Friday) in June and August for anywhere from 4-8 hours a day.  They do classes and inservices then.  That doesn't include the continuing education requirements that they have to complete on their own time.  As a condition of their licensure, they have to have their Master's degree by the time they've been teaching for (I think)10 years.
  

• curmudgeon said on Dec 14, 2007....

  "I'd love to get paid by each student, on this very same minimum pay. I'd love to just select those kids out, who do not do home work, school work and basically just come to school cause mom and dad is at work. I don't really need them to bother me when I want to teach the rest of the class."

  The per-student model could indeed benefit teachers, too! Why should teachers be forced to invest their time and effort on kids who don't want to be there? Why should kids who don't want to be in school be forced to go?

  If a kid doesn't want to be there, the teacher ought to have the right to eject that student and focus on the ones who do want to be there and learn.

  silver - fist para was tongue in cheek. But since we're on a per pupil model here, I think we need to carry it further - fewer students per teacher, real accountability, parental choice.

• Zayda said on Dec 14, 2007....

  Curmudgeon--Fewer teachers per student would be nice as it would be nice to afford more individual attention to each student. Unfortunately, given the way we fund education in this country, it's not going to happen.
  
  Class sizes get raised because schools (elementary, middle, high school) can afford to do many of the things they do given the limited funding they have.
  
  In college, class sizes get raised so universities can actually make money to operate. Or, the smaller the class size at a university, the more sections of a course or the more courses an instructor sometimes teaches.
  
  But then that again depends on the instructors contract. See, in most contracts for instructors at the college level, their contract specifies how many hours they teach a year--typically 24 - 32.
  
  So, for instance, using my own teaching schedule this year as an example, my course load for the fall semester was a 14 credit hour course load (one 5-credit hour class and three 3-credit hour classes for a total of 93 students enrolled in the courses. My course load for the spring is a 13-credit hour course load (two 5-credit hour classes and one 3-credit hour class for a total 61 students enrolled). That will give me a 27 credit hour load for the 2007-2008 school year. Technically, under my contract, I could teach one more 3 credit hour course (but not two as that would put me over 32 credit hours) or one more 5-credit hour course.
  
  In addition to that course load, my contract specifies that I must maintain 6 hours of office hours a week so that students can contact me face-to-face outside of the classroom.
  
  This doesn't cover the committee meetings I am obligated to attend because I must perform service to the university/department/program as part of my job since service is weighed in my yearly evaluations.  That service can be anything ranging from serving on a technology committee that is charged with seeking funding sources to make more technology available to faculty and students to working on a textbook evaluation committee that is charged with reviewing textbooks for potential selection for a specific course.
  
  It also doesn't count individual service (not committee directed). Since I am one of the few "resident experts" (my department head's term--not mine) on computer-mediated pedagogy in our department, any time a new instructor is scheduled to teach in a computer lab, I am the person the director of our program directs that new instructor to for assistance in learning how to teach in a computer-mediated classroom. This "training" for the new instructor can range from anything like learning how to turn on the overhead projectors in the room and learning how to operate the whiteboards and star boards to understanding the pedagogical philosophy behind computer-mediated composition.
  
  Unfortunately, even at the university level, we don't have the right to eject kids from our classes who don't want to be there and who don't want to learn. And I have seen my fair share of those students; they are in college because someone told them they had to go but they have no real idea of why they are there or what they want to do with life, so they don't come to class, they don't do the work, and they waste either their money, or their parents' money, or taxpayers money if they are there on scholarships and grants.
  
  The only way we can kick a student from class or have a student removed from class is if they threaten to harm us or other students. And the process for doing that is a long and arduous one that involves meeting with department chairs and various deans.
  
  Eilan: I don't know where people get the idea that teachers--any teacher--has the summer off. That is one of the biggest misconceptions of the teaching profession. We simply don't. Even at the university level, if we are not teaching classes, we are doing research that is part of the requirement for a tenure-track job (if we hold a tenure-track job) or we are engaged in some kind of service for the university/department/program we teach in. And we are planning those courses we will be teaching come fall by either reviewing potential new text books, coming up with lesson plans, new approaches to teaching specific concepts, etc.
  
  Granted, we don't have to report to work at a certain time over the summer unless we are teaching summer courses and we can set our own schedules for when we want to do all that course planning over the summer, but we still do work over the summer.
  
  Another misconception is that all teachers get paid year round. Yes, some do have a year round salary. But often, lecturers at universities have a 9 month salary (they get paid September through May) and have to take a summer job just to make ends meet. And to think, those teachers who are on 9-month salaries are still technically doing work related to their teaching jobs over the summer because they are preparing for fall course while not getting paid by the university the work for over the summer.
  
  

• lioneljay said on Dec 14, 2007....

  Z, thanks for the detailed explanation of your workload. I'm sure it will help some people understand the profession a little better.
  
  Personally, I'd rather be a lawyer since they are in court only about four or five hours per day, and court days only number a few per month. Or a judge, for they have similar hours. For that matter, my doctor only spends 12 minutes with me each time I see him - and at the rate that I pay, he's making well over $500 per hour (well, I'm sure he has to share a few pennies with his receptionist and nurse). Maybe it would be better to be a professional baseball player. A utility infielder who hits about .250 makes between $2 and $3 million per year and only has to play 162 three hour games each year. At the lower end, that's $4,115 per hour. I could face big-league pitching for that kind of wage.
  

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